Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Jul 1950

Vol. 122 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—Minane Bridge.

Mr. P.D. Lehane

I regret very much having to delay the house to-night to discuss this matter, particularly when I know that these long sittings are a great strain on the staff. I think the House will excuse me when I say what I have to say. I will try to be as brief as possible.

I asked the Minister for Lands to-day whether he or the Land Commission or his engineers had decided that the Minane Bridge reclamation scheme was a desirable and/or feasible project. The answer I got to that question was:—

"A decision has not yet been taken in this case."

I regarded that as a very unsatisfactory answer. I do not think that the Minister made any attempt really to answer the question that was tabled.

The Minister has expressed himself on a number of occasions in this House on this matter. I think he could have given an answer different from the answer he did give. When I pointed out to-day that the Minister had not answered the question, he repeated that no decision had been taken, while my question was whether the Minister, the Land Commission or his engineers had decided, first of all, if it was desirable and, secondly, if it was feasible.

This is a matter that I have brought before the House on a number of occasions. As early as 14th April, 1948, that is nearly two and a half years ago, I put a question to the Minister, which he will find in column 625, Volume 110 of the Dáil Debates, in regard to this matter. The answer I got from the Minister at that time, two and a half years ago, was that the Land Commission had the scheme under active consideration but no decision had been taken yet. The answer I got to-day, on 12th July, 1950, is that no decision has yet been reached in this case. On 25th May, 1948, the Minister, in column 1996, said that there were engineering difficulties and that a technical examination of these difficulties was proceeding. On 2nd June, 1949, the Minister said, in column 2495, Volume 115:—

"The difficulties have not yet been finally settled but the matter is being expedited."

On November 9th, 1949, the Minister said that an adequate solution had not yet been approved.

On 30th November, the Minister told us that the engineering personnel concerned in this scheme included a master of engineering and six other graduates from two universites:—

"To estimate the amount of time spent would cause the Department, that was overworked, too much trouble."

He said also that there was necessary delay to ensure that the scheme will not be a failure on completion. The Minister to-day could not tell me whether he considered the scheme either desirable or feasible but, on 30th November, 1949, he was ensuring that on completion the scheme would not be a failure.

On 30th November, 1949, Deputy Desmond asked the Minister for Agriculture if he would take over this scheme which the Land Commission apparently could not carry out. The Parliamentary Secretary, Mr. Cosgrave, replying for the Minister for Agriculture, said that he was waiting for the Land Commission to make up their minds.

On 22nd February, 1950, the Minister, who could not tell me to-day whether he thought the scheme desirable or feasible, said—column 152, Volume 119:—

"I am anxious to see the work put in hands, as I wish to ensure that no further damage will be caused to the land and buildings in this area."

On 29th March, 1950, the Minister said:—

"Since my reply of 22nd of last month...a further inspection has been made. It is now expected that a decision will be reached shortly.

Mr. S. Collins: When is it expected that the work will commence?

Mr. Blowick: The decision will be taken inside a couple of weeks...."

That was last March. As far as I am concerned, I do not mind the Minister or the Land Commission or any Department of State misleading me, but I take very serious objection to anybody misleading my constituents. This particular scheme affects a very considerable number of acres of land in my constituency. A village, a bridge and a parish church are affected. The Minister is aware of all these facts. The Minister went down and saw the place himself and, in my presence and in the presence of the officials of his Department, told the people in the area that be considered it a feasible and a desirable scheme and one that should be tackled, and he guaranteed that it would be put under way as soon as possible. To-day we find that no decision has been reached. Engineers of the Minister's Department were also present when the Minister stated in the locality that it was a desirable, feasible, necessary, urgent work and work that would be proceeded with.

I want to know where I stand. I have conveyed to the people in the area the replies I received to the questions I put to the Minister. I feel guilty. I feel that I have in some way helped to mislead the people in that particular area. I want the Minister to tell us whether he is prepared to go ahead with the scheme or to point out the difficulties that are holding it up.

This is a scheme that has been before the Department for a considerable number of years. There were embankments on this estuary, and these have all been worn away and washed out by the tide. A number of years ago, the county council, because they saw their roads and bridges were in danger, offered the Department of Lands a grant if they would proceed with the work. The Bishop of Cork, because he saw the parish church was in danger, also offered to contribute. All the landowners in the area signed a petition and promised to pay their share if the scheme was proceeded with. The case has been with the Department for a number of years and absolutely nothing has been done. I want the Minister to tell us whether his six engineers and the master of engineering are quite inefficient and useless or whether it is some official of his Department who is blocking the work. He should take us into his confidence. He should take the House and the people of my constituency into his confidence and not continue to hamstring them and make fools of them and of me. This is an important and urgent work. Every day the water is allowed to continue to flow in and do further damage to the embankments in this area means an increase in the cost of the scheme. If the Minister waits long enough he will have a scheme for which it will be impossible to provide the money necessary to repair the damage done. If the scheme had been tackled two years ago, it would have cost considerably less than what it will cost now. If the scheme had been started four or five years ago — when it was also being considered by the Land Commission — the cost would have been considerably less than what it will cost now. We have a right to be told by the Minister whether he has any responsibility or whether he can put all the blame in this connection on the Land Commission. If that is the situation, he should let the House and the people know rather than let them believe——

Mr. Corry

On a point of order. Is the Minister not responsible in this House for the Land Commission?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not see the relevancy of the point of order.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Blowick)

That is not a point of order at all.

Mr. Corry

Surely it is.

Mr. Blowick

The Deputy is asking a question. He is seeking enlightenment.

Mr. P.D. Lehane

I understand that there are certain functions performed by the Land Commission with which the Minister cannot interfere, and that there are other functions in regard to which the Minister has a certain right to dictate policy. If this is a matter in which the Minister has a right to decide what is to be done, I want him to give an explanation as to why the matter has been held up for so long, and why something definite is not being done in a matter which the Minister himself admits is an urgent necessity.

Mr. Moran

The Minister can do it. He has the right to do it.

Mr. Blowick

Do what?

Mr. Moran

The Minister can do it. He has a right to do it.

Mr. P.D. Lehane

If the Minister has the right to do it them it is his responsibility——

Mr. Blowick

That is true, since the passing of the Act.

Mr. P.D. Lehane

——to do it and to do it immediately because the longer it is left undone the more money it will cost. If the Minister is not going to do it, in the name of goodness let him tell us so.

Mr. Corry

It would have been done two years ago if you had let Deputy Moylan do it.

Mr. Desmond

I also had a question on to-day's Order Paper in connection with this matter. The Minister may ask why I have raised this question so often. Like Deputy Lehane, I have been interested in the matter for the past few years though, perhaps, I may have approached it from a different angle. I brought it to the attention of the Department on a number of occasions. I should like the Minister to understand that I am living about three miles from the area in question. I have in my possession a letter written in 1936 by a former Parliamentary Secretary of State, Deputy Moylan, to our late Minister for Local Government when he was Deputy Murphy. In that letter, Deputy Moylan admitted the necessity, yes, and the urgent vital necessity of going on with this work. There is no use in thinking that the present Minister alone deserves to be attacked in connection with this matter. I admit that the present Minister is only a couple of years in the job but that, at the same time, cannot in itself excuse him fully. The Minister is here only a couple of years but the other fellow has gone—to Tír na nÓg maybe. However, the same staff is there and they, apparently through the Minister, are preparing the scheme. I fail to understand, if this was an urgent necessity in 1936 and if the staff were engaged on the work of preparing plans in 1936 why nothing further has been done since.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should direct his criticism towards the Minister and not towards the staff.

Mr. Desmond

Perhaps I may not be expressing myself correctly. My point is that the staff in 1936 were not directed to go on with the work. There are hundreds of acres of land wasting in the area in question. It is not satisfactory to come here time after time with an excuse. A man by the name of Mr. James Noonan, Minane Bridge, County Cork, can prove that when they were trying to get foundations for this work they could never succeed and yet they stayed there. I would ask the Minister to realise the urgency of this matter and not to follow the course set by Deputy Moylan in 1936 of putting it in a cubby hole in his office.

Mr. Corry

The job would be finished now if you had left it to Deputy Moylan, and you know it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputies can exchange their compliments somewhere else.

Mr. Blowick

As I said previously, I can quite understand Deputy Lehane, Deputy Desmond and the Deputies who represent that constituency being interested in this particular job. Let me say that I went to the trouble of going on the site myself and seeing exactly what the problem was and the damage being done. It seems that the sides of the river were protected by embankments for quite a long time. These embankments were quite sufficient to contain the back rush of the tide up to the time a sand bar at the mouth of the river shifted its position, thereby allowing a greater inflow of tidal water each time the tide rose. The shifting of the sand bar permitted the inflow of a greater volume of water than previously and the embankments were absolutely inadequate to contain the tidal waters. I went to see for myself what the situation was. There is no gainsaying the fact that, while it will be an excellent job, if and when it is undertaken, nevertheless something must be done. I want to assure Deputy Lehane who seems to think that both myself and the Department are adopting a policy of marking time and doing nothing that that is not so. I would point out, however, that the expenditure on that job is going to run into very close on £20,000. I will not allow that money to be expended until I can be sure that the engineers have a good and a sound scheme to put forward. I am sure no reasonable Deputy will press me to sanction the expenditure of that amount of money on a scheme — which, I may say, will save only 260 acres — without being quite sure that the scheme is good and sound. I could not sanction any scheme without an assurance from the engineers that they have a scheme that will stand up for more than a few months and that will not show damage after the first storm that comes in from the Atlantic. That is common sense.

Mr. P.D. Lehane

The Minister cannot say that we are rushing it.

Mr. Blowick

I admit that. However, Deputy Desmond lives near the place in question. I am sure he knows that the getting of a foundation for an embankment — the top of which will be six feet—is not going to be an easy problem because on top there is a layer of fine sand. Under that there is a layer of fine soil. I want to be quite sure that when this embankment, with sluices, is erected, it will be a lasting job. We do not want the first storm to blow it down.

Mr. Desmond

If they went down further they would get a better foundation.

Mr. Blowick

We Deputies or Ministers are not experts, and we must leave these matters to the engineers. An engineer who would, let me say, rush hastily into the doing of a job, without making sure it would be a sound job, would probably be asked to resign if, after a high tide or a storm, the embankment did not stand up to what he thought it would stand up to. I am more irritated by the delay than the Deputies from Cork, but at the same time I might as well point out that the money will not be sanctioned and will not be expended until we are sure that there is a good job done there. I do not want to hold out any hope of this work being undertaken immediately. It comes as news to me that it was initiated as far back as 1936.

Mr. Desmond

Long before that.

Mr. P.D. Lehane

Actually since 1912.

Mr. Blowick

If that is the case, then I am only two years and four or five months there, and yet Deputies are trying to rush me. I explained that borings had to be made. These were made and we are satisfied now that, after a few further small points— and only small points—have been settled, the scheme can go ahead. We are fully satisfied, and I feel I am fully satisfied, but I am not an engineer and Deputies are not engineers. It is just as if Deputy Lehane or Deputy Desmond brought a doctor to see some person who is sick. You do not tell the doctor how to set about curing that person. If these engineers are fit for their job, we must rely on their advice and wait for it. If they say it is not safe to proceed with a job until we make sure our foundations are right every inch across from one side of the bay to the other, no Minister would be justified in sanctioning expenditure. It would be like going out on a wild-goose chase, because it might give way the first time a high tide came against it, or a storm.

Deputy Lehane believes he is partially responsible for misleading the people. Why does he think that? There is no need for him to think it. All he has done so far is to ask for information as to how the scheme is proceeding, and there is nothing to be responsible for on his part. I am sure none of his constituents thinks there is.

Mr. P.D. Lehane

On the 29th March I was told that a decision would be taken in a couple of weeks and I gave that information to the people down there.

Mr. Blowick

When I gave that information to the Deputy, I thought the final borings would reveal a solid foundation, and it was then certain fiaws were discovered. Until we find we can produce a good job we will not go ahead with it, and that is that. I have no doubt about the right course to take. It is better to go out and tell the people that we do not feel quite safe yet about this work and, even though it might mean a temporary setback to some people's hopes, it is better to have that than to put up a slap-dash job that might come down with the first storm.

Deputy Lehane says that the work is getting more difficult every day that goes by. That is not the case. It would be if we contemplated repairing the old embankments, but instead we are contemplating putting a barrier below Minane Bridge in which sluices will be erected and which will keep down the tidal water, and at the same time form a container for the fresh water that comes down. We must do so in order to provide fresh drinking water for stock and fresh spring water for the houses because, owing to the porous nature of the soil, there is the danger that the fresh water would be contaminated by the salt water.

Our scheme is, I hold, the most suitable of the two or three proposals put forward, one of which was to fix the embankments. There is a church and a cemetery there, and they will be in danger in a few years if something is not done. I know that a bridge is necessary, and I can quite understand the Deputies' anxiety to get the job going. So would I, if I had a similar problem in my own area — and I have problems in my own constituency that I would like to get going, but I will not give the word to go ahead until I am quite satisfied that the engineers have found a means of doing a job which will be sound and lasting. I would not agree to anything temporary that might give way with the very first high tide that might come, or the first storm.

Mr. Corry

Would the Minister consider calling in a consultant engineer?

Mr. Blowick

Deputy Corry might like if I consulted him, but I would not rely on his advice.

Mr. P.D. Lehane

Is the Minister perfectly satisfied that his master of engineering and six engineers are efficient? It strikes me they are only fiddling with it, because seven engincers, including a master of engineering, should be able to decide on something before this.

Mr. Blowick

I am quite satisfied with the engineers. I should also bring to the notice of the Deputies concerned that, in the strict sense of the word, this is not a Land Commission problem. It is a problem that the Land Commission are handling because their engineers have more experience in that kind of work than any other engineers in the country. They have handled embankments for years, embankments on rivers, along the seashore and on the estates and farms which they took over during the years. The Land Commission was primarily established to make the tenant farmers the owners of their land and to relieve congestion. This work is completely outside their scope, but, nevertheless, we are handling the job——

Mr. P.D. Lehane

You are not—that is the trouble.

Mr. Blowick

When we find a good foundation we can go ahead. The plans that have been prepared are ready to be put into action and, surely, that is a sign that we have been doing our work well and good.

Mr. Moran

Is the Minister aware that this is going to cost the Land Commission £80 an acre — £20,000 for 260 acres?

The Dáil adjourned at 11.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 13th July.