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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Dec 1950

Vol. 123 No. 12

Supplies and Services (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1946 (Continuance and Amendment) Bill, 1950—Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The burden of most of the speeches made in support of the Bill has been that the price control machinery was ineffective for its purpose. I pointed out last night that a good part of the Parliamentary Secretary's introductory remarks was directed to showing that the opposite was the case and that the position of difficulty which has arisen now is due to two main factors, namely, the deferred effect of devaluation and the Korean War. Deputies ought to cast their minds back to the criticism they offered of the same machinery implemented by the Fianna Fáil Administration when we had war on a much larger scale and much nearer to our shores than distant Korea. If a war in a place so remote as Korea can have had such immediate effects on our national economy the prospect for the country, if a much larger conflict should take place, is very bleak indeed.

A great deal of play has been made with the removal of certain taxation by the present Government when they came into office. It will be remembered that the former Administration decided to put certain extra taxes on non-essentials for the purpose of subsidising the essential foods of the people. When the stringency of supplies is such that they must be rationed and when such stringency is calculated to put up the prices of commodities, Fianna Fáil believed that the State has to come in and subsidise essentials out of the public purse for the benefit of the poorer sections. I pointed out that Fianna Fáil went a little further than that to ensure that the very poor sections were not alone given goods at a reasonable price, but were given free vouchers for some of the essential foods, such as bread, butter and milk, during the emergency. These aids to the very poor were removed by the Coalition Government and certain cash payments substituted for them. It is quite obvious that these cash payments are not now nearly adequate to meet the increased cost of the goods which they then got for nothing.

The point I am making with regard to the claim to the removal of certain taxation is that the taxation imposed on certain non-essential goods was replaced by increased prices for these very essential goods themselves and that these were brought about by what is commonly called through the country, the black market in flour, tea, sugar and butter. We think that the straightforward tax on beer, tobacco, cinema seats and other luxuries was a fairer and more honest way to find these subsidies than to ask the people themselves to pay higher prices on a second classification of these goods.

In my particular area the rationing of flour is strictly adhered to and this strict adherence to it has been brought in in recent times. If there is sufficient flour in the country to enable people to buy all they want at 7/- a stone, I think the first thing the Government should have done was to ensure that all sections of the people, particularly those who rely in the main on bread for their sustenance, were given an adequate ration at the subsidised price. That applies not alone to bread but to things like butter and sugar as well.

Subsidies were one of the principal means adopted by Fianna Fáil to ensure that prices would be within the capacity of people to pay, but while claims are now made that taxation has been reduced we find that the overall bill the people have to pay is £8,000,000 higher than it was in the year we went out of office when the Book of Estimates showed £70,000,000, which included subsidies of £12,750,000 for flour, £1,000,000 for fuel and practically £2,000,000 for the production of turf. We now find that, although the bill has gone up, the subsidies have come down. The comparable figures for last year and this year are between £9,000,000 and £11,000,000. That in itself, I think, is quite a sufficient commentary on any boasting talk that may be made about the removal of £6,000,000 on taxation. In that regard I might point out that when that taxation was removed we found that certain people did not return the benefit of that removal to the public and I might cite the matter of cinema seats in proof of it.

One would think, listening to the Tánaiste last night, that the people of this country were in a condition of starvation and rags during the war. After all, since they are free, people might dissipate their means on non-essentials if they so chose and the thing that struck every visitor to the country —even if it escaped ourselves—was that the people were well fed, well dressed and, above and beyond all, that there seemed to be an unending round of entertainments. It is a well-known fact that all sorts of sports and amusements, matters which involved the expenditure of money on non-essentials, were supported more during the war than at any time previously. We do know that certain sports fixtures had their biggest attendances during that period in spite of the fact that transport was restricted, and all that is visible evidence of the possession of means and counteracts the lugubrious statements made by the Tánaiste and other speakers here last week who made a comparison between the position under Fianna Fáil and that which exists now.

I do not know what the Tánaiste may think about his efforts and the efforts of his Government not alone to increase wages, but to find wages for people who have no work, but can the Tánaiste and the other speakers on the far side of the House deny the fact that emigration has proceeded at a heavier rate since the change of Government? I know that it can be cited that the applications for permits to go to employment in England have not increased, but I should like people who want to use that argument based on the official statistics of the Department of Social Welfare to look on the figures of emigration to the countries where you are not allowed to go in order to take up employment. I refer particularly to America. We all know that if young people want to get into America they must not make the plea that they are going there to get employment and must be able to show that they are going over to their friends. We all know that to put forward that reason for their going is a subterfuge which people in their difficulties must use in order to get to America. If you take the all-over emigration figures to all countries you find that it is now, unfortunately, much heavier than it was when Fianna Fáil distributed essential goods on one flat ration, divided employment over the whole country, developed our natural resources of fuel and created a prosperity in the poorer areas which they have not known before or since.

I do not think there is any necessity to follow all the arguments that have been adduced here to prove that Fianna Fáil was wrong and that the Coalition was right. I think that the showing of Fianna Fáil in conditions universally admitted to be the worst in the history of the world was so good that if that administration, that efficiency shown in the face of those almost insuperable difficulties, were available now in the easier position we have had for the last few years, I am quite satisfied that the country would be well able to stand up to the minor blast that has come from far away Korea and that the people would not now be asked to accept an "inevitable deterioration" in the position because Korea is engaged in hostilities.

The Tánaiste said last night that devaluation also was a cause of our difficulties. I want to say to him that it is the Coalition Government that devalued. He said that devaluation was made inevitable because Fianna Fáil had bound Irish money inextricably with the £ sterling. The present Minister for Finance and other Minister for Finance have often told us that the basing of the Irish £ on par value with sterling is a matter of volition for the Government here; that they can do as they choose in that matter and have it at par, above or below par or on a fluctuating basis, so the Tánaiste's argument that we tied the Irish £ to sterling in such a way as to render the avoidance of devaluation impossible does not hold water. The arguments pro and con may be such as to render devaluation avoidable in the opinion of the best financial brains, and the Tánaiste should not place the blame for that decision on his predecessors in office.

It seems to me that the first duty which devolves on the Government—a duty carried out to the very best of their ability by the previous Administration—is to reserve the goods and resources of this country for our own people. People down the country do not see why we should borrow dollars from the United States to buy maize to increase the export of eggs and bacon to another country and get money in return for these sales that we cannot use to buy more maize. People are not such fools that they do not see the foolishness of that transaction. If we do require to sell as much as possible to buy goods abroad it seems to me that had we kept our £ at a higher value than it now has, we could get as much money as we are getting for a smaller volume of exports and we would have that surplus in any event for the needs of our own people.

In spite of all the efforts of the various Coalition Parties to justify the stand which they have taken, I would point out that it would suit them better and would be better appreciated and understood by the people outside, if, in vindicating that stand, they did not adopt the whining tactics of continuously throwing the blame on their predecessors and of saying: "We inherited this, we inherited that and we inherited the other from our predecessors." Does not everybody know that the reason for putting them in office instead of Fianna Fáil was to bring about a disinheritance of these evils? If the machinery was not right, were they not put in to change or improve the things about which complaint was made? Inevitably in the world situation which now threatens to develop the Coalition will have to go back, if this country is to survive, to the tactics followed by Fianna Fáil. There will have to be a conservation of the national resources for the benefit of our own people. If that conservation does not take place, whether it is in respect to wheat, eggs, bacon or fuel, and if there is not a distribution of the available goods on a single ration basis, then the Government will come up against trouble here internally which will probably be much more serious in its political effects than any war in Korea or elsewhere.

The most striking feature of this debate appears to me to be the small number of concrete suggestions which have been made by those who contributed to the debate. All these suggestions, with the exception of that just made by Deputy Bartley, have come from the Government side and have been confined to the method of a more rigid price control. Deputy O'Higgins suggested that the workers ought to put more effort into their work and show an increased production per man-hour. That would, of course, help, but it would not be a solution of the problem which is there. I must say that the problem, as I see it, is not so much a problem of the high level of prices as a problem of the gap which exists between the level of prices and the level of income—I suppose it would be right to say the level of income of the lowest paid section of the community. That is really the problem that has to be solved, and how far this Bill is going to bring a solution of it is the question we have now to consider.

Much criticism has been levelled against the Bill because of the proposal in it to set up an advisory body to advise the Minister on this question of price control and the examination of profits generally. I think that the main foundation of the Opposition criticism to the setting up of this advisory body is that it is merely an expedient whereby the Minister would be enabled to shift his responsibility, but I do not see it in that light. The directive responsibility and authority will still remain in the hands of the Minister. He will be the person responsible. I think that it is a good principle in a democracy that a man in the position of Minister ought to seek advice. I think that it is a commendable characteristic of a man to say: "I admit that I do not know everything about everything and therefore I am anxious to be advised by people of competence." I think that is not an unsound idea, and that is one of the features of this Bill which commends itself to me. I do not for a moment suggest that this advisory body is going to produce a solution for the problem which is there, but I think it will help and, in so far as it will help, I approve of it.

There is this much that is clear from speeches of the Opposition Deputies— that the Opposition has no solution for this problem. Save for the suggestion made by Deputy Bartley, I have not heard and I have not read of any concrete sensible suggestion from the Opposition which would enable the Government to solve the problem which is there. I took a note when Deputy Childers was speaking and I think my note of what he said is correct. I do not suggest that it is verbatim, but I think I have the gist of what he said. He said that "the Government ought to have courage to tell the people that nothing can be done to reduce the cost of living." I hope I am not misquoting or misrepresenting the Deputy.

The Deputy said the Minister should do his job.

I see. I, of course, will accept the correction but I might add that that was the impression which I got from the speech of the Deputy, that the Government ought to have the courage to tell the public that nothing can be done about it. If that is the total sum of the wisdom of the Fianna Fáil Party in its approach to this problem, we have reached the position then that you have a confession to the country that, even if the Government is falling down on the job, as Fianna Fáil says it is, Fianna Fáil can do no better and it will be idle for wishful thinkers to say: "If only we could put Fianna Fáil back into power, we would have a reduction in the cost of living." I cannot see any other conclusion to be reached from the premises as they appear to me.

I am satisfied that if the Opposition had a solution they would bring it forward and put it at the disposal of the Government. It is a grave matter. Every one of us recognises how grave it is and I am glad to concede that I know that the Opposition would be sufficiently patriotic in a situation of this kind to give the suggestion if they had it, and not to take up the attitude of saying: "That is the Government's job and not ours." That argument may have something to be said for it in matters of less importance than this but in a matter so grave I am quite sure that if the solution were over there it would be forthcoming. It has not been produced.

Deputy Bartley is the contributor from the other side who has impressed me most. I was interested to note his reference to the question of devaluation and his somewhat scathing comments on the excuse made by the Parliamentary Secretary that we are affected here by the happenings in Korea. Everybody knows that we are. In these days, it seems to me that it does not matter much whether there is a war in Korea or a war in France, because distance and space are reduced almost to nothingness. While Deputy Bartley's argument might have been perfectly valid a thousand years ago, a great deal of its validity is gone now because happenings in Korea will cause repercussions here and happenings here will cause repercussions in the farthest ends of the earth. So, while I would not for one moment attribute unworthy motives to Deputy Bartley, he ought to think again if he is relying on an argument of that kind.

As I said, this problem is really one of reducing the gap between the two levels. You cannot deal with one level without taking the other into consideration. That is conceded by everyone who thinks about it but you have people who do not think about that and, for the sake of argument, they will point to one level and draw a conclusion from that without taking into consideration the other level. The two are inextricably interrelated and there is no use whatever in trying to reach conclusions taking only one as a premise.

My personal opinion is that it is more desirable to have a high price level and a high income level than to have a low price level and a low income level, provided that the gap between the two levels in the former case is not greater than the gap in the latter case. Even if you have a gap of similar size, the position is not as aggravated because, with a higher wages level, there is a greater choice when the money is being spent. The people who spend the money have a wider choice of things which they can buy. We must also recognise that year by year since the second world war ended, supplies have become greater and the standard of living of the people of this country has gone up. There are more goods upon which they can spend their money. There are more wants to be filled. Taking these things into consideration, and from what one can gather of the position in the country, particularly in rural Ireland, I believe that there is a more satisfied body of citizens now than there was in preceding years. I believe that the citizens as a whole are better off than they were in any year since the war ended. That is something for which, perhaps, the Government may not be entitled to 100 per cent. credit, but I do think they are entitled to some credit for the condition of things as they are. I am not saying that they could not be better. I am not saying—in case anybody wants to misrepresent me—that we have the best of all possible Governments but, in the circumstances of the times, the Government have not fallen down on the job.

It never started to do the job.

I think it is not making a bad show at all. I do not want to make statements which would not stand up to close examination, but I am satisfied that there is foundation for that statement and that it is a fair statement to make. In saying that, I think it is only right to say that we must recognise that there were very grave difficulties during the war years when Fianna Fáil were in office. Again, to be quite fair, I shall not say that Fianna Fáil were the best of all possible Governments, but I would not say either that they were the worst. That is as far as I will put it.

Deputy Bartley referred to some statistics and I went to the trouble of looking up some statistics also. I did find something which interested me quite a lot and which, I think, goes a good deal to show that I was justified in the statement I made when I said that this Government cannot be said to have fallen down on the job. These statistics, I should say, were plotted on a chart. There were a few charts, one of them showing the cost-of-living figures as compared with the level of industrial wages over a number of years. Two graphs put on the one chart showed that the cost of living, based at 100 for 1938, was consistently and considerably greater than the industrial earnings figure based at 100 for 1939. There was a slight drop in the cost-of-living figure and a slight increase in the industrial earnings figure in 1946, so that the gap I have been talking about became narrow. That gap became narrower still in 1947 and it finally closed—and I think this is a very significant thing—at the end of 1948. You had the two levels on the one line. It remained closed until early in 1949, when the industrial earnings figure actually rose above the cost-of-living figure. Actually, the two lines then proceeded to divide further, that is according to the figures available to me, in any event, and the gap continued to widen up to the latest available figures.

I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the figures which I got. On those figures the position to-day is very much better than it was two or three years ago. If I say that the Coalition Government are entitled to the credit for that, I may be charged with adopting the fallacy of post hoc, ergo propter hoc, but I think it is a fair case to make that the Government are entitled to a good deal of the credit for the manner in which they have handled the situation. One of the expedients which they have adopted appeals to me very much. That is the expedient of giving a ration to the people at the subsidised price and giving any excess they need at the economic price. I cannot see that there can be a sound objection to the principle underlying that scheme.

If, as I have pointed out to the Dáil, the ration of flour is only sufficient for half a week's sustenance, what will the person in receipt of that ration do? Will he have to buy this other flour at 7/- a stone?

The ration now is the same as it was when Fianna Fáil was in office. It was the same then as now for every citizen, so if then they had only enough to do them for half a week, they are now in the position that they can purchase over and above that quantity.

But there was one flat ration then.

I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary's answer to Deputy Bartley is quite a satisfactory one; it is really no answer at all.

It is not satisfactory to the hungry people.

If it is true that people are not getting a sufficient amount of flour and bread to feed them properly, I think a sufficient ration ought to be made available. I say it is no answer to Deputy Bartley's case when the Parliamentary Secretary says that the ration is the same now as it was in the time of Fianna Fáil, because we know that supplies were worse in the Fianna Fáil time—that actually many supplies were not there. The Minister for agriculture told me a short time ago in his own inimitable way that there are "lashings and lavings" of flour in this country and the ration could be increased considerably. He told me something, too, which I knew already, that you have an abuse in the feeding of subsidised flour to dogs and pigs and that that abuse would have to be eliminated. I am sure Deputy Bartley will agree with the Minister and with me in that.

Certainly.

I am all with Deputy Bartley in the case he makes, if it is a good case and can be substantiated, that the ration ought now to be increased. As a matter of fact, I had a question on the Order Paper, I think yesterday, asking the Minister if he would increase the ration by 25 per cent. I put down that question as a result of conversations which I had with people and after putting it down I think I got the answer from other people and I do not see anything wrong with the answer I got. I was basing my case for an increased ration of bread and flour on the case of a family of adults on a farm in the country. I know of such families where you have a father, a mother and three or four adult children working on the land. I am prepared to accept that the present ration is not sufficient to sustain those people whose work takes them out in the fields and is of a strenuous nature.

But there is this manner to the argument, that there are many families where there are small children and where the full amount of bread and flour to which that household is entitled does not go into the household simply because they do not want it. That leaves on the hands of the bread retailer and the flour retailer a surplus which—whether he ought to do it or not, I do not know, but which he does do and can do—he gives to people who would not otherwise be entitled to it. Of course, he would be entitled to charge the unsubsidised price, but he cannot do that with bread at the moment, except white bread. I am sure the ordinary shopkeeper in the country, if he finds he has a surplus of bread on hands and if he finds that out of 20 customers ten will not take the full ration, as a business man will be prepared to pass on the excess to those who need bread in excess of their ration. I am sure it is done. Taking things on the average, I think that a sufficiency is there and, taking one thing with another, the ration is adequate.

The Minister told me some time ago that there were lashings and leavings of flour and bread. He told me that, if a reasonable case could be made to him, he would be prepared to increase the ration. I accept that from the Minister, and feel that I could invite Deputy bartley, and other Deputies who believe that the present ration of bread and flour is not sufficient, to go to the Minister for Agriculture. I believe that, if a reasonable case could be made to him in the Dáil, he would accede to that. I am sure Deputy Bartley agrees with me when I say that we all recognise the unfairness of people taking advantage of an abundance of subsidised bread and flour and feeding them to pigs and to dogs. None of us would stand for that.

I was interested to hear Deputy Bartley's interpretation of the chart which shows the figure for the issue of travel permits and passports to persons going abroad for employment, because I must confess that I did not advert to the point that he made about those going to America. But the figures, as they are, do show that since 1944 the figure was never lower than it is now.

The Deputy knows why, of course.

Well, as an advocate I suppose I would be tempted to say because of the conditions that now prevail.

They have all gone.

According to the statistics, which give the numbers of those making application for the bread and flour ration, nobody has left the country, or died here, over the past five or six years, and that despite the fact that births have continued at the normal rate. I would say to the Deputy that I do not think that what he has said is a fair conclusion—that they have all gone. They have not all gone. We know that there is more employment in the country now than there was for years before.

In the County Dublin.

In the Twenty-Six Counties. The Deputy is either asleep or he wants to shut his eyes to the facts around him.

With regard to the question of the effect of the Korean war and devaluation, we have to recognise that there is really no way, as far as I can see, in which we can insulate ourselves completely from the effects of price changes and price increases abroad, particularly where we have to import raw materials. The prices will be increased and we will have to pay them, and that is the end of the matter. As far as I know, we are not able to adopt any expedient whereby we can insulate ourselves completely against these changes abroad. The question of devaluation, of course, has a bearing on that, much greater, I think, than is generally recognised. I think that Deputy Bartley put his finger on a very important matter when he referred to that. I forget the exact words he used, but the gist of it was that the Government is a free agent to do what it likes in regard to our currency here. The present Minister for Finance and previous Ministers for Finance have so stated. He suggested that it might be well to examine the question now as to whether or not it would not be a good idea to see what we could do about having an independent currency here. The trouble about that is this, that if anybody makes a suggestion of that kind he will be dubbed by a lot of people in the country as a financial crank, even if he suggests the making of changes, no matter how slight, in the currency arrangements here. Well, I do not think that is a fair attitude to take up.

My own recollection is that the late Lord Keynes, who was regarded by a great many people as one of the greatest living economists of his time, changed his mind and changed his views not only once but on several occasions. He admitted, in one of his later books, that some of the economic theories which he had held in his earlier days were quite wrong. I have no doubt that there are people who would, and did, regard the late Lord Keynes as a kind of financial crank, as a kind of daft person, at one period in his career. I think the reason for that —I do not want to digress too much on it now—is that, as Professor O'Rahilly has pointed out in his book on money, we are inclined very much to be frightened by the financial jargon that is used. We know that financiers and bankers have built up a vocabulary of their own, just as in the case of medicine there is a vocabulary which is Greek to those of us who are not doctors. There is a good deal of sheltering behind this mysterious financial jargon that is calculated to frighten us, though I do not think it ought to frighten us or frighten the Government from taking advice on matters of finance generally, and of having the courage to act upon that advice if it is satisfied that, by so acting, it is going to better living conditions here and help in reducing price levels. If I may say so while on that topic, the sooner, I think, that our Government faces up to the fact that money ought not to be treated as a commodity and is not, in fact, a commodity, the better. It ought to be treated for what it is, a medium of exchange, and the sooner the Government faces up to that, the better it will be for us here.

It is interesting now, in the light of events which have occurred since September, 1949, to examine what the position was with regard to devaluation at that time. Immediately after the announcement by Sir Stafford Cripps that he was going to devalue the pound sterling, our Minister for Finance came to Radio Eireann and, in his broadcast, told us that we were going to follow suit and devalue our pound. I must confess now that I am not so sure that the Minister for Finance was, at that time, telling us the whole story, because, as I understand the position, the fact was and still is that under the Currency Act of 1927 our £, if I may so describe it, is tied hand and foot to the English £ and it has to go up and down with the English £ willy nilly, and that will keep on happening while the 1927 Act remains law. The Minister for Finance could, of course, have come into the House after the announcement of devaluation by Sir Stafford Cripps and presented us with proposals for legislation to repeal the appropriate provisions of the 1927 Act. In the light of the events which have happened, I believe that that would have been the wise thing for him to have done then. A crisis had arisen. We were in the strong position of being a creditor nation; England was in the weak position of being a debtor nation. Yet we had to come along and follow suit. That struck me as an odd thing at the time and it still strikes me as odd and unwise.

As we all know, rumours of devaluation were widespread for a fairly considerable time before the announcement was made. During all these rumours Sir Stafford Cripps said the £ would not be devalued. Then suddenly he made a complete turnabout and devalued the £. Looking back on the situation, we are faced with this: that either it was a good thing or a bad thing to devalue the £; it certainly could not be both. But, according to the reasoning of financial experts on the other side of the Channel, it was on Monday a bad thing to devalue the £ and on Tuesday, when it was done, it was a good thing. I am not so concerned as to how they worked out that reasoning. What I am concerned with is that we, because of our financial position, which is a position of our own making in 1927, found that we had to dance to the tune, so to speak, played by Cripps. If there is any advantage in our being a creditor nation and in being in a strong financial position, I think that that was a senseless position, not only to find ourselves in, but to leave ourselves in. It is silly for people on these benches to be saying: "Fianna Fáil was there all these years and they did not change the position." This Government has been in office nearly three years and have not changed the position. I would urge on the Government that that is a question which ought to be faced up to. They should have it examined. I am not satisfied that it is wise to have ourselves in the position in which we are.

There was a series of articles in the May, June and July issues of the Irish Monthly in 1948, and the position was then put very well by the writer when he said:—

"Many other countries kept almost as close to sterling as ours; but they have financial experts who are quite capable of seeing that the countries do this of their own volition in a deliberate and independent way, as the need arises for adjustments. They do not tie themselves to the axle of the British currency chariot like a dog beneath a cart."

I should like to express the hope that in the not too distant future an Irish Minister for Finance will come into this House with proposals for legislation to repeal the provisions of the 1927 Currency Act which tie us hand and foot to sterling and put us in the position that we will be able to act on our own initiative as the necessity arises.

We were tied in September, 1949, when the sudden, unexpected announcement of devaluation was made. We were in the position that we could not very well take fast action then because the position had not been considered. Taking any action would have meant the introduction of legislation and putting it through all its weary stages in the Oireachtas. Why not now face up to the position and bring in legislation to leave us free? I want it to be clear that repealing the 1927 Currency Act does not mean that we will have to depart from parity with sterling. It merely means that we ought to be free to have such a relationship with sterling as would suit our own conditions here. It is true, as Deputy Bartley said, that if our £ were now worth more than the British £, then our £ would buy in the sterling area more raw materials. It is also true that if on the New York Stock Exchange our £ was of greater value than the English £ our £ would buy more goods in the dollar area and Deputy Donnellan who, I see, is now deputising for the Parliamentary Secretary, could bring in more bulldozers which he uses for his drainage schemes for less money. That is a consideration which I urge on the Government. In the difficult times in which we live, it is one which ought to get immediate attention and one which, if it is properly approached, will bring beneficial results to our economy here.

I thought I was going to hear something worth while from Deputy Timoney, because, being a member of that miracle Party that promised to reduce the cost of living by 30 per cent., we find now after three years that they have no plan, that they never had a plan, and that they were going to sell something to the people that they did not have to sell. That is one political bubble that has been pricked. That is one political promise that has been blown sky-high and Deputy Timoney helped to blow it there this morning.

Wait until we form our own Government.

He asked us had we any scheme and had we any advice to give. I was rather amazed at that query coming from a Deputy of the Clann na Poblachta Party because that is the Party that had all the plans cut and dried; all they needed to do was to pull out the drawer; the plan was there and it would be given effect to immediately they came into office and, as a result of that plan, the people would be very happy, living in the lap of luxury with the cost of living reduced by 30 per cent. This morning the Deputy comes along and in his own modest way he tells us that there was no plan and that they cannot do anything about it. He talked round about the subject. We had some contributions to this debate from the alleged guardian angels of the workers, the Labour Party. They were very verbose on the hustings from time to time. Again, I thought we were to have after three years something worth while in relation to the cost of living.

That is a long time between "thinks"—three years.

I thought we were to have something worth while in relation to the cost of living. When Labour came in first they were going to close behind strong doors, with remarkably strong hinges, special bolts and large locks, the manufacturers of this country. That was one trump card they had to play. We listened to all the talk about the grandiose schemes. Now we find that the workers are placed in the position that they have to demand extra wages in an effort to live. We have listened to members of the other Parties forming this inter-Party Government misrepresenting Fianna Fáil. The Parliamentary Secretary said with reference to flour that the ration was the same now as it was in the Fianna Fáil days. Surely in the year 1950 that is not a proper comparison. Deputy Timoney said that the Minister for Agriculture told him that there were "lashings" of flour.

And "lavings" he said.

And "lavings", if you like. Deputy Cosgrave told us that the ration is the same now as it was when Fianna Fáil was in office. What a lame comparison. What a poor contribution from a Parliamentary Secretary to say that the ration is the same now as it was in the days when Fianna Fáil were trying to feed the people under the most adverse conditions, when world war No. 2 was raging round our shores and when the Government of the day could hardly procure a boat to bring in food. He has the temerity to compare to-day with what the Fianna Fáil Government did four years ago.

Statements were made prior to the general election that the cost of living, the cost of clothing and all these other essentials would come down. Instead, we find that they are soaring. They are going up and up until it is virtually impossible for the people to live at all. I have had experience of the circumstances in which numerous families are trying to live.

This morning coming into the Dáil I had an appeal from some people asking me if I could do anything to get them a few blankets during the cold weather because they could not afford to purchase them. They explained to me that, under this charitable Government, the father of the family had received an increase of 5/-; he is a married man with six children. Immediately upon getting that increase 3/6 was deducted from the 5/-. The rents of houses are not taken into consideration in computing the cost of living at all. Very high rents have come into operation since the inter-Party Government took office. This man, with a wife and six children, got an increase of 5/- from the Dublin County Council. Because of the policy of the inter-Party Government and of how little they think of the workers 3/6 was taken off that increase of 5/-.

Was it for income-tax?

To pay the increased rent of his house. It would indeed be well for that unfortunate man if he was able to pay income-tax. The position is now so serious that the ordinary people are no longer able to meet their commitments. I know hundreds of workers in County Dublin to-day who are not able to feed themselves, never mind clothe themselves. They need thank nobody for that but the Government they helped put into office which put them in the position in which they find themselves to-day.

I wonder would the Deputy tell us more about the deduction of the 3/6 from the 5/-, because it is interesting. I do not understand how it worked.

Differential rents.

There are differential rents in operation. I shall be delighted to enlighten the Deputy on the matter. House rents are not taken into consideration at all so far as the cost of living is concerned.

If they are, they have gone up a good deal. In County Dublin there are graded or differential rents. This man had £3 18s. prior to getting an increase of 5/-. Directly he got that increase his rent went up 3/6 and he was compelled to pay that 3/6. That is the position. I notice that there are no members of the Labour Party in the House.

Deputy Cogan has just come in.

Deputy Cogan is well able to speak for himself. I heard Deputy Timoney refer to our imports and exports. Does the Deputy know what the inter-Party Government has succeeded in doing? Slowly but surely, the inter-Party Government has succeeded in killing the economy that was built up by Fianna Fáil to make this country self-sustaining and self-supporting. Apparently it is the policy of certain Ministers to kill certain industries which Fianna Fáil had been endeavouring to build up in order to make them part and parcel of our national economy. Apparently certain Ministers are more anxious to support foreign markets and foreign labour by importing things we could produce for ourselves at home. Any Government that adopts the policy of importing food and other commodities that could be produced within the country is doing the country a national wrong.

We were grossly misrepresented on numerous occasions in the past. Any time that I raised my voice here in an effort to protect certain agricultural industries I was misrepresented by the Minister for Agriculture and I was told that I was concerned only with the vested interests. I am not concerned with any vested interest. I am concerned with the national economy of the country as a whole, not with any particular individual or group of individuals. The policy which we expounded in the Fianna Fáil Party was a policy framed for the betterment of the country. That policy was gradually and very definitely raising the standard of living of our people. We were slowly and gradually attaining that end, notwithstanding the fact that we had to go through an economic war and world war No. 2. We were slowly developing our economy and our policy in order to build up a nation and a people with homes befitting the traditions of an ordinary Christian State.

That economy has now been destroyed. It has been trampled upon. A number of the national schemes which the Fianna Fáil Government initiated for the benefit of the workers and, indeed, of everybody in the country, were turned down by the inter-Party Government, but they are going back to them now. Let us examine the fuel position. The price of fuel has gone up. The turf in the Phoenix Park was the subject of much mockery and blackguarding by many Deputies, including some who are now Ministers. All that was done with the idea of killing a national industry. At present our people have to pay 9/- and 10/- for a bag of coal. Two bags of coal—£1. Take that out of £3, plus the rent, and the people can live on nothing.

I have here a list of items which are vital to each one of us—tea, butter, sugar, bread, clothing, blankets and various other things. All these are part and parcel of our human economy. Each person requires them in order to be able to live. If the Labour Party are so concerned about the welfare of the workers of this country, why is it that they did not insist that the butter ration of a ½ lb. should be increased and subsidised to 1 lb.?

What about the 2 ozs. Fianna Fáil gave them?

It is a jolly good job for this country that you people were not in power during the period of the emergency or the people would not have had even 2 ozs. of butter.

They would have had none. Before we left office, the ration was 6 ozs.

That was before the election.

Now, Deputy O'Higgins has spoken already and he should give Deputy Burke a chance to make his speech.

If the Labour Party were really interested in the workers, would they not have carried on the policy which we, as a national Party, carried on? The same can be said in respect of every other section of our people. While we were in office we tried to subsidise, as far as possible, the major food items. Why did the Labour Party not ask the present Government to subsidise butter, which is an essential item in every home?

It is subsidised.

Only to the extent to which we subsidised it—and they are giving only 8 ozs.

The ration is higher now.

Do you mean to tell me that any farm labourer or worker with a bit of bread in his pocket will say that 8 ozs. of butter will keep him for a week?

You thought 2 ozs. were enough—and he was working just as hard then.

The country had not it at the time. It has it now. That is the big difference. During our time in office there was a war on.

Is the Deputy quite sure we have it?

The Government say they have it. They are charging 3/6 in public in the black market in the shops for it. That is the only difference now. After three years of alleged prosperity under this inter-Party Government they come along now and they cannot increase the ration to more than 8 ozs.——

They could. They could increase it to 1 lb. if they liked. There are tons of it.

——and subsidise it to the extent of 1 lb. Why do you not do it now? Why not put some of the election promises into effect? You were to subsidise butter, tea, sugar and other items. Why do you not do it now? Deputy Timoney is a member of the Party which made such promises.

There is a two-price system in operation for sugar, too. We subsidised sugar and we tried to peg down the cost of living as far as possible.

By freezing wages.

We tried, by subsidising, to give the people a ration at a reasonable cost. After three years of inter-Party Government we can see now what they think of the people. They have not increased the subsidy and the ration is smaller. All they want now is to ask the people to pay 3/6 for butter—4/- or 5/- for the extra 1 lb. of butter if they want it, and 6/- a lb. for tea. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce asserted in this House only a few days ago that the cost of living had not gone up——

He said no such thing.

——to any worthwhile degree. That is an example of the outlook of the Government—the cost-of-living index has gone up only a few points and these few points do not matter as far as the housewives' budget is concerned. They are able to carry on.

That is deliberate misrepresentation.

By the Irish Independent? It is also in the Official Report.

When this conversation is over we might hear Deputy Burke.

Another item which has increased in cost is clothing. To-day, the majority of the people are unable to pay the high cost of a suit of clothes or any clothing that is worth while. I suppose that, in certain cases, the price has risen almost 300 per cent. Those very Parties in the Government who were clamouring about the plight of the people and boasting of what they would do if they were elected to office are not doing anything now to help the people. The matter is very grave. The wage earners are in the unhappy position that they cannot afford to buy clothing for their children. That is the truth. The sooner the Government realise their responsibilities and act accordingly the better it will be for the people of this country.

The Minister for Social Welfare stated that Fianna Fáil removed the supertax in respect of manufacturers. Yes, we did remove the supertax so as to enable the manufacturers to put that money into their factories— getting up-to-date machinery, increasing production and giving more employment. Deputy Norton has been Minister for Social Welfare for the past three years and all he has done in that connection is to take up the cowardly attitude which, I regret to say, certain other Ministers and members of that Party have taken—the cowardly attitude of taking advantage of this House to blackguard people who are not in a position to defend themselves.

When I brought up any question here in the Dáil dealing with the growing of various items of food here in our own country and their sale to our people at a reasonable price, the Minister for Agriculture, in his own glib way, tried at all times to misrepresent me and misrepresent the motives which prompted me to raise such questions. The result is that the prices of flake meal, oatmeal and various other items have gone beyond the purchasing power of our people. I am sure that the members of the inter-Party Government ought to ask themselves to where they have brought this country. Are they going to continue on in that strain? Are they going to leave this country completely at the mercy of foreign imports? Are they going to run our people from rural Ireland completely? Deputy Timoney mentioned that we were tied to sterling so far as the £ is concerned. Not alone are we going to be tied to sterling so far as the £ is concerned, but we are going to be tied to the mercy of other countries to send us food that we want here. The people making up the inter-Party Government are responsible for that position.

You have another position amongst our rural people, instead of eating some of the food they produce themselves, you find them having as a result of the policy of the inter-Party Government, to sell the few eggs they have and the little bit of butter, in order to get the ordinary tea, sugar and flour. In our time there were a few bob available. There was work and other things going on, and the people were able to carry on reasonably well. Day after day, I have been accosted by people looking for employment. So far as employment is concerned, it is a dead end. All that awaits the boys and girls leaving school with their leaving certificates, is the emigration ship. In regard to employment in offices, you find that staffs are redundant as people are trying to bring in some mechanical economy which is responsible for getting rid of staff. Why is that the position? Industry started to develop immediately after the war. There was a good deal of employment. When things were developing, we endeavoured to get in everything we could in order to carry on the work we had already initiated. We find that that work was crippled and sabotaged and thrown on the scrap heap by the inter-Party Government. They wonder then why our people cannot be better off. We are living in a golden paradise. One would want to get out among the people and realise how they feel about it.

As regards the advisory committee set up to advise the Minister on price control, I must compliment the Ministers of the inter-Party Government for being very wise in always having somebody to blame. As far as I see, it is just passing the buck. They should stand up to their own responsibilities. One Minister has an Emigration Commission and another Minister has another advisory body and something else. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has now set up an advisory body to deal with price control. I hope that this advisory body on prices will not be as slow as the Emigration Commission, which has failed to report yet. If that is the position, our people will have suffered and will remain suffering, trying to pay their way and to carry on as best they can. There are other items which have increased in price. Petrol, oil, coal, flake meal, oatmeal, sugar, butter——

And tobacco and cigarettes.

I hope that we will, in the very near future, get some definite, concrete policy from the intelligentia making up the inter-Party Government as to how our people can carry on and live, because they are not living at the present time. Would they also explain how people can rear a family? There was a lot of talk about sanatoriums last week and the position is——

Sanatoria is the word.

We have the expert on languages now.

I am dealing with a sanatorium at the moment. I just want to point out that the policy of the inter-Party Government is succeeding and will succeed in sending a good deal more of our people to the sanatorium, because the cost of living is so high and our people are getting it so hard that they cannot nourish their children in a proper way.

I am not saying this because I am a member of the Fianna Fáil Party, but those are the facts and the sooner the Government realises them the better. Let them not be trying to close their eyes and say that the people are living better now than they lived three years ago. That is absolutely wrong. It is not a sanatorium that will be needed but sanatoria and plenty of them. If Deputy Donnellan has anything further he would like to ask me, I would be delighted to answer.

Finally, to the Labour Minister let me say that if he wants to assist the workers he is supposed to be representing, let him look for a further subsidy on house rents and let the people have the houses at nominal rents, to give them a chance to rear their families and live as they should in a normal Christian State. The position is desperate and Deputies over there are putting their heads into the bush until the wind blows over. They are not a bit concerned about these people, but I am, as I meet them every day and I know that these are the facts.

This debate has gone on for a considerable time and has centred mostly on the increased cost of living. I have listened to many speeches here on that matter and I have listened with great attention to the remarks from the Opposition. I have been waiting patiently for some constructive criticism or sound suggestions from the Opposition, that might be of help to the Government in tackling this problem, but so far, in the Opposition speeches, anything like a useful suggestion or sound criticism has been lacking.

We all know perfectly well that the cost of living has increased recently. It is fantastic to have a group of civil servants examining figures and then coming to a decision that the statistics at their disposal prove there has been no increase in the cost-of-living index. Every man and woman has felt the increase. It is not necessary to have a group of civil servants checking statistics to try and suggest to the ordinary man and woman that there has been no increase.

The Parliamentary Secretary when he introduced this Bill was foolish to the extent that he tried to justify the findings of this Prices Index Commission and he was prepared to stand over something that his predecessor had introduced. I see no reason why the present Parliamentary Secretary should carry the baby for Deputy Lemass. It is quite evident that the machinery at the disposal of the Department to check up on prices and on the cost of living is unfit for the work. It is high time that that machinery were scrapped and something more suitable for the job substituted. I was glad to hear the Tánaiste say it was the intention of the Government to freeze prices. That is a very welcome step since at the present moment we have throughout the country a swarm of distributing agents, travellers and so on, going from town to town, carrying quotations that have increased enormously in the last few months. According to these people, everything is going to go up. It is time that this proposed increase in prices by these people was nipped in the bud.

The international situation can be and is being used as an excuse in certain cases, but I am afraid that the international situation and the present position in Korea are not responsible for the all round increase that has taken place in essential goods.

To some people—including certain manufacturers, wholesalers, distributors and retailers—the international situation is a godsend, as they are prepared to use it to batten on the public. They say they have to buy in a market where prices have increased and that they as manufacturers or distributors are not responsible at all. I am not prepared to accept that as a genuine excuse. Other Deputies have given instances to prove that there is no real excuse for the sudden and steep increase that has taken place in certain clothing items. I do not propose to go into that in detail, as it has been dealt with sufficiently by others. I know, however, of people in the country to-day who are prepared to take advantage of the public in every respect with regard to increasing the prices of essential commodities. I know of one individual in the West of Ireland who has spent the last three or four weeks going round the country trying to buy up chests of tea. That man is not motivated by any charitable instinct: his aim is to batten on the public if the world situation deteriorates still further. He and his type are anxious at all times to get such an excuse for the black marketing that continued during the Fianna Fáil régime and many people are hoping there will be an opportunity to resume it.

This Government is making, as far as I can judge, a reasonable attempt to tackle the cost of living. They are entitled to a certain amount of credit for the work they have done in the last two or three years towards meeting that increase. We all know that the Fianna Fáil attempt to meet rising prices was to freeze wages by a standstill Order. They allowed the price of essential commodities to soar to fantastic heights first and then, at a very late stage, imposed a standstill Order on wages. Their next attempt at attacking the price situation was the bright idea they had in 1947 of introducing a Supplementary Budget to impose further taxes on beer, tobacco, cigarettes, etc. That was, as Deputy Vivion de Valera said here, in order to stabilise the price of essential commodities such as butter, tea and flour. They were forced to take this drastic step of imposing taxes on the public to the extent of something like £6,000,000.

It is well to remember that the price of the rationed portion of such commodities as butter, tea, sugar and flour has not increased since Fianna Fáil were removed from office. In 1947, Fianna Fáil reduced the price of butter, but in order to do it, they had to impose the Supplementary Budget, and when they reduced the price they reduced the ration also. The ration of butter which was regarded as reasonable by Fianna Fáil at that time was the princely amount of 2 ozs. When one considers that Fianna Fáil regarded 2 ozs. of butter as a sufficient ration in the winter months, months in which butter is most essential, one realises that this Government deserves great credit for stepping up the ration to 8 ozs., and, at the same time, keeping the price at the same level. While this Government increased the rations of these essential commodities, they did not levy the taxes imposed by the Supplementary Budget. They were able to remove these taxes, and, at the same time, to increase the wages of various sections of the community, thus enabling the consuming public to meet the increased cost of living. It is peculiar that Fianna Fáil should criticise this Government on the ground that they have made no attempt to keep down the cost of living and on the ground that they had no solution of the problem. We all know that Fianna Fáil had no solution for that problem and could do nothing about the cost of living. Their attitude now is that this Government can do nothing either, and, because they are bankrupt of ideas, they are prepared to spend the time of the House in criticism and abuse of this Administration.

It is interesting to recall some of the reasons given by Fianna Fáil leaders as to the necessity for the imposition of the Supplementary Budget. They could see no way of giving a ration of butter, tea and sugar at a reasonable price to the people other than the imposition of that Budget, and the Leader of Fianna Fáil went to Clare in January, 1948, and told the people there why he had had to impose taxes on cigarettes and tobacco. He said:—

"When I went to prison, I used to smoke and I know very well what it is to be deprived of a smoke, but I got so much out of it that I never went back to it again."

From what is the Deputy quoting?

From a speech by Deputy de Valera at a rally in Clare, as reported in the Irish Press of January 5, 1948. I am sure that there are a considerable number of people in the Fianna Fáil Party who prayed hard that Deputy de Valera would continue to smoke. That was the only excuse he had for the people of Clare. That was the only sop he could offer them. So far as he was concerned, his advice was: “You had better give up smoking.” At the same meeting, he spoke of the pint. I have heard it described as a luxury and as a necessity, but I should like the House to know what Deputy de Valera thinks about it. Speaking of the pint, he said:—

"I know in the case of the pint that it is a very welcome addition to those who have to depend on a cold lunch and that the pint of stout is almost as much a necessity as the other. I can assure you that nobody regretted more than we did that there was no way in which we could get the amount required except the particular device adopted."

In other words, if we are to believe what he said in Clare, Fianna Fáil were so bankrupt of ideas with regard to reducing the cost of living that they had to take the drastic step of imposing a tax on what Deputy de Valera described as a necessity. That speech, to my mind, is very enlightening because it shows us that the title they adopted of "the poor man's Government" was very apt and fitting, in so far as the ration they gave was a ration of a very poor nature. The ration of butter was two ounces and that, I suppose, was the amount which was to satisfy the people from whom that poor man's Government expected support.

We listened to lectures by members of the Fianna Fáil Party in which they twitted the various Parties supporting this Government about their pre-election promises and policies. So far as we in Clann na Poblachta are concerned, we put a policy before the people. We did not get a mandate from the people to carry out that policy, and, as a matter of fact, in the last election, no single Party got a mandate from the people to carry out a particular policy. A group of Parties, however, who were prepared to sacrifice Party interests got together in the interests of the country and formed a Government. The only selfish Party was Fianna Fáil, which put their own Party interests before the interests of the nation. I am very glad to be able to say that, even though many things have taken place during the period of office of this Government with which we do not fully agree, we can say definitely that the present inter-Party Government is far ahead of the Government it replaced.

A good deal of time has been devoted to both criticism and defence of that section of the community described as the middlemen. It was very interesting some nights ago to hear Deputies Briscoe and Childers in their very eloquent defence of the middlemen. Deputy Briscoe took me to task for what he described as the "attack" I made on a certain class of middlemen known as commercial travellers. I want to say that I made no attack on any section of the distributing trade. I merely pointed out that I believed that there were too many of these people between the producer and the consumer. I can only describe that group, as I have done before, as a group of bandits who lie in wait to get their whack out of the price of the commodity as it goes between the producer and the consumer. Deputy Briscoe said that these people were essential cogs in the wheel of production. I agree that we must have distributing agencies and that we need a certain number of cogs in this wheel of distribution, but as far as the present system is concerned there are too many cogs in the wheel. However, I suppose that in this debate we will not get very far towards a solution of the problem of revising the present system by which a commodity reaches the consumer, so I will not go any further on that line at the moment.

Deputy Briscoe was very anxious to justify the profits of the manufacturer, wholesaler and retailer. Both he and Deputy Childers said that the manufacturer got only a very reasonable profit and that the same applied to the wholesaler and retailer and that as far as they were concerned everything in the garden was lovely. Of course, both of them were making a case for the middlemen and I do not suppose you can blame them for that, but I think they should have read Deputy Corry's speech in this House when he described the people for whom Deputies Childers and Briscoe were so eloquent as "a bunch of drones". The most devastating attack I have heard in this House on that group of middlemen was made by a member of the Fianna Fáil Party, Deputy Corry, and his speech was a direct contradiction of the speeches of his colleagues, Deputies Briscoe and Childers. I think it would be wise for them both to have a chat with Deputy Corry before he indicts them again in this House in the manner in which he did recently, because as far as I can see the remarks he made could more fittingly be applied to his own Party members than to anybody else in this House.

When I listened to the speeches of a number of members of the Fianna Fáil Party justifying the profits made by the middlemen I began to wonder what was behind this defence and why it was essential for people like Deputies Childers and Briscoe to take the rest of the House to task for telling the public that too much profit was made by the middlemen, so I made a few inquiries and I had not very far to go. As a matter of fact, I had not to go back further than the last general election to find the reason why Fianna Fáil were so anxious to defend the manufacturer, wholesaler and distributor. I have here a cutting from the Irish Press (December, 1947), headed: “Fianna Fáil General Election Finance Committe. Honorary Secretary, E.J. Boland, Offices, 59, Dawson Street,” which is a type of proclamation addressed to every citizen. I do not propose to quote the whole statement, but I will give extracts. The first is:—

"To every citizen. We are about to face a general election, the importance of which to each one of us cannot be over-emphasised."

I think that is worth emphasising in this House. It goes on to say:—

"We appeal to your generosity and good sense to help us in obtaining the substantial funds necessary for a vigorous and successful election campaign. Please send your subscriptions to any member of the committee. It will be treated in confidence if you so desire. Yours faithfully, Peter MacCarthy, Chairman."

I do not see how that is related to the matter we are discussing.

The case was made here the other night by Deputy Briscoe that the only reason Fianna Fáil defended industrialists, manufacturers, retailers and wholesalers was that they really believed that these people were being unfairly attacked in this House. I simply quote from this document to prove that the real reason why Fianna Fáil backed up the demands of these industrialists, retailers and wholesalers was that Fianna Fáil were themselves backed up to the limit by these particular people.

Whoever backed Fianna Fáil and whoever were backed by Fianna Fáil is irrelevant to this measure.

I do not want to quote the names of these people——

It would not be relevant even if the Deputy did so desire.

——but I would like to inform the House that 16 of the biggest industrialists, wholesalers and retailers in the country backed them.

The Deputy must leave that line of argument.

I bow to your ruling in the matter. It is, I am sure, a relief for Fianna Fáil that members of the House are precluded from exposing them to the extent they should be exposed.

The Deputy is precluded from referring to it because it is not relevant. That is the only reason he is precluded.

I should like to point out that while Fianna Fáil come into this House and make a case for the profits that are at present being made by industrialists, wholesalers and retailers, they can only be described as backers of these particular people. In the next breath the Fianna Fáil Party describe themselves as "the poor man's friends". One bunch of them sit here in the Dáil and say that the retailers, wholesalers and industrialists are being unfairly attacked by members of the Government and that all these people, so far as Fianna Fáil are concerned, are angels. Next day we find another group of the Party moving down the country and saying that they are the poor man's Government, that they represent the ordinary men and women of Ireland, that they have no time for, and nothing to do with, these big industrialists. I think they should act straightforwardly and let the country know where they stand.

I should like to suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary, having left this sore question of the Fianna Fáil war chest, that it is high time that the present system of checking up on the cost of living were changed and that steps should be taken to carry out the suggestions made by the Tánaiste last night to freeze prices and if necessary to reimpose the excess profits tax. There is nothing wrong, so far as I can see, in bringing industrialists, manufacturers and retailers if they seek an increase in the price of their commodities, out into the open and obliging them to make their case in court, just as members of a trade union, if they look for an increase in their wages, have to go before the Labour Court and state their reasons publicly for seeking such increase. If an increase is necessary or desirable they are given it as a result of the decisions of that court. I think there is nothing in the world wrong in asking producers and retailers to go before a court established on somewhat similar lines and to make their case for the increase. The public will then be satisfied and there will be no talk at a later stage of the thing having been done behind closed doors.

The Government intend to set up an advisory tribunal, and I think that is a very desirable step. As has already been suggested by other Deputies it is necessary that the members of that tribunal should be beyond reproach. I would say that the head of the tribunal should be a person at whom no criticism could be levelled by any political Party, and that the appointment should be definitely non-political. Having selected a suitable head for the tribunal, I would suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that no matter whom he puts on the tribunal, he should definitely keep off it representatives of the different industrial and manufacturing groups. I see no reason why any industrialist or manufacturer should be allowed on the tribunal. To put it more strongly, I shall say this to the Parliamentary Secretary. Supposing he had the job to-morrow morning of reforming the prison services, I do not believe for a moment that he would go down to Portlaoighise or Mountjoy and ask the opinions of the inmates there as to the manner in which he should carry out his reform. That may be rather strong language to use in connection with industrialists and manufacturers, but I think it is necessary to make use of such language in order to draw a proper picture of the situation. If these people are put on the advisory tribunal they will prevent the necessary work from being done. They are experts at the business of covering up profits and so forth and they will be able to hoodwink other members of the advisory tribunal. We shall then be back where we started or even be in a worse position than ever.

In addition to the head of the advisory tribunal, I suggest that we should have on it a first-class accountant and an official drawn from the Taxes Department in the Revenue Commission. I think also the services of a barrister should be utilised and that this barrister, with the assistance of the accountant and the inspector of taxes from the Revenue Commission, should be in a position to get to the inside workings of any manufacturing or industrial concern. I would not for a moment suggest that the barrister selected for this work should have a permanent appointment. According as the cases are dealt with, it would be desirable that a different barrister should be employed to fight out each case.

Another suggestion I should like to make to the Parliamentary Secretary is that the proceedings of the advisory tribunal should be made public, not six months or 12 months after the inquiry had taken place, but immediately afterwards. I would suggest that a report of the proceedings should be published from day to day in the papers so that ordinary citizens and the consuming public would have a chance of examining the evidence and of judging for themselves whether or not the particular individuals making an application for an increase in the price of any particular commodity had established their case. Unless the Government sets up a tribunal on these lines, I do not see what great benefit it can be in allaying the anxiety felt by the public in regard to profiteering and so forth.

Before concluding, I should like to suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that it is high time that we were furnished with the result of the inquiry into flour milling and that it was made public. I feel sure that there is much interesting material in that report. When that report is made available to the public, as I hope it will be soon, I trust that the Government will have the guts and the courage to take the necessary steps to put an end to the state of affairs that we all realise exists in regard to flour milling. So far as this Party is concerned, we hope that these steps will mean that that vital industry will be taken over from the group who have complete control of it and that it will be made a State concern, in other words, that the industry will be nationalised. It is even more important to take it over and make it a State concern than it was to take over Córas Iompair Éireann. The Government should take steps to make this report available to the public as soon as possible. We have waited long enough. I realise that it takes a considerable length of time to have the matter examined and to have decisions taken on it but, in view of the urgency of the matter, I would suggest that, as soon as possible, before Christmas at any rate, the report should be made available to the public.

In conclusion, I would like to say that I was sorry that the Parliamentary Secretary, more or less, was walked into the position that he took up in this House, in which he had to justify the machinery set up by his predecessor, Deputy Lemass, in connection with the cost-of-living index.

I was walked into nothing and justified nothing. I just stated facts.

The facts as they were published in the Press did not do justice to the work that this Government has done in the last two and a half years. The machinery that is available, which was set up by the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Lemass, in connection with the cost-of-living index, is out of date. In order to satisfy the public, the Parliamentary Secretary should take steps to have that machinery scrapped and something more up to date substituted, which will enable the public to know where they stand with regard to prices. We all know perfectly well that prices have increased considerably recently.

I did not deny that.

We know that, but the report in the daily papers gave people the idea that the Parliamentary Secretary and this Government had adopted the attitude that there was no increase in the price of commodities. It must be brought home to the public that, as far as this Government are concerned, they have admitted that there has been an increase in the price of commodities, especially in the price of essential commodities, and that not only do they admit that, but that they are now taking active steps to see that the increase in the price of essential commodities is controlled and that, if possible, certain increases that have taken place in the last few months will be investigated and, if possible, the prices of the particular commodities will be pegged back and stabilised at what they were last August.

The least this House should be asked to expect from the representative of the Government, whether he be the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary, is a realistic approach to a subject of this particular kind. This is a rather important discussion. The Bill is, perhaps, one of the most important, from the public point of view, that is, from the point of view of the man in the street, who finds it so difficult to make ends meet. For such a representative to come to the House and to endeavour to create the impression that prices were stabilised since 1947, appears to me, to put it very mildly, a very foolish approach. I cannot realise why the Parliamentary Secretary allowed himself to be the instrument to make that statement.

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy. I only said up to August. I admitted that there were increases since then.

I know the Parliamentary Secretary will be in the unenviable position of having to explain away his statement for quite a considerable time to come. Deputies are not alone in the interpretation put on the statements, because the man and woman in the street share the belief that the statement was intended to convey that the situation, as far as essential commodities of life were concerned, was the same to-day as it was in 1947.

Two weeks ago the Parliamentary Secretary was probably not very well known to the general public. He was, perhaps, known in his own constituency as a Deputy who is industrious and who looks after the interests of his constituency but, outside of that, I should say that he was not nationally known. He is in the unenviable position to-day of being, perhaps, the most-talked-of person in politics, not in the happy way that he or any of us might like, but rather as one who is alone in the belief that the economic conditions of the ordinary man in the street are the same to-day as they were three years ago. That is rather an unfortunate position for one to find himself in, but it is true.

The Parliamentary Secretary did in effect say that prices were stabilised during that period. It may be that he intended to convey that they were stabilised if a comparison was made between the index figure, which was altered in 1947, and the index figure as it is to-day, but I say that the operation of the prices index to-day and the prices index when it was amended, bears no comparison, for this simple reason, that to-day there is what the general public have come to regard as the Government black market, that is, the two priced commodity. However we may regard the question of dual prices, we must realise and admit that the rations which are allowed the public to-day of sugar, butter, flour and other commodities have become insufficient and that it is necessary for practically every family to buy outside the ration There is no family, in the City of Dublin at any rate, that can exist on the present rations. The result is that they are compelled to purchase goods off the ration and to pay the excessive price for these necessary commodities such as sugar, butter and, in many instances, flour. Yet the second price of these goods is not taken into consideration for the purposes of the index. It does not come into the computation in respect of the cost of living, and one wonders, then, how any comparison could possibly be made between the price index figure of 1947 and the price index figure of to-day. I fail to see how such a comparison could be made or how it can be suggested, as a result of that comparison, that prices had more or less been stabilised.

In an effort to prove that conditions were not as bad in this country as in other countries, the Parliamentary Secretary produced tables from some English papers, but I submit that the public are not interested in these comparisons. The only thing they are interested in at the present moment is the situation with which they find themselves confronted. There is no use in telling us that cuts of this, that or something else in England are costing more than they are in this country. That is of no interest whatever to the public here. What we are interested in is the conditions which exists, the conditions under which we have to live here, and, above all, what the Government are doing to ease these conditions.

The Tánaiste, when speaking as Deputy Norton in the past, made great play in regard to the prices that were being charged in excess of the value of the goods which were being sold and he liked very much to describe certain people as profiteers, vultures and so on. Last night he was speaking here as the deputy head of the Government and he gave us some inkling of the fears the Government are now beginning to feel over the situation that exists. I submit that he did not take that action until members of the Opposition here made it very clear what the position that existed was outside this House. That is a position of which the Government appear to be completely unaware or, if they are aware of it, they were taking no action to deal with it. In July, 1947, Deputy Norton, as he then was, made this statement:—

"We have built up a hierarchy of profiteers and financiers who are blisters on the back of the country. They have grown more vulturesome in the last seven or eight years than ever before and they are more numerous and, ironically enough, they feel themselves safer than ever. Those gentlemen are thriving, but the masses of our people are being driven to emigrate because of our lazy and unplanned economy."

That was the Tánaiste speaking in 1947, and, if such a condition of affairs existed in 1947, I would like to draw the attention of the House to this, that the Tánaiste has been a member of the Government for almost 34 months, not far short of three years, and what has he done during these three years as deputy head of the Government, aware of these facts and, we must presume, in possession of evidence to support these facts? I suggest my premise is correct and I am surely entitled to ask what has the Tánaiste done in the interval? Is his anxiety now to take sudden action forced upon him by the criticism of the Opposition which has been directed to the attention of the Government? There can be no doubt whatever about it that, were it not for the revelations made by Deputies on this side of the House and supported by Deputies on the Government Benches, the Tánaiste would not have been impelled to come here and make the statement he made yesterday evening.

"These gentlemen are thriving, but the masses of our people are being driven to emigrate because of our lazy and unplanned economy."

Does the Tánaiste not know also that over the past three years an average of about 25,000 people were driven out of this country annually and what has he done about it? It was easy for Deputy Norton, sitting over on these benches, to make criticisms of the then Government. I feel I am entitled to ask the Tánaiste, who now holds the very responsible position of deputy head of the Government, what has he done to prevent those people from being driven to emigrate because of our lazy and unplanned economy? All that was very interesting.

At a later stage in the same debate Deputy Norton made this statement:—

"A better standard of living for our people—does anybody see that on the horizon? Does anybody find it easier to live to-day than ten years ago, or does anybody find it easier to live to-day than 25 years ago? All the indications are that, so far as the masses of our people are concerned, the struggle for life is keener than it has been for a quarter of a century."

I want to add to that that it was never as keen as it is to-day. If the Parliamentary Secretary, or the Tánaiste, wishes to find out if the statement which I have made is true, he has only to go down through the streets of Dublin and he will be told very quickly that within the last three years—he will not have to go back ten years— the struggle for existence has become more acute and more difficult. Deputy Davin has come into the House. It may interest him if I refer him to a statement which he made on the 1st July, 1947, in the course of the discussion on the Taoiseach's Estimate. Deputy Davin then said:—

"The real solution for this problem is drastic control of the prices of essential commodities. We have not faced up to that position, and that is the real cause of trouble whenever strikes take place."

Was there ever a period in the history of this country when strikes were more prevalent or threatened strikes greater in number than they are to-day?

Not to my knowledge. There was never a period when labour unrest appeared to be greater than it is to-day. The only explanation is that that situation has been brought about by reason of the conditions which exist, conditions to which Deputy Davin himself was then referring. The point that I want to drive home is that Deputy Davin was then talking about a solution for the problem that faced the Government of that day. His solution was drastic control of prices. Has Deputy Davin been urging upon this Government drastic control of prices? If he has, I must admit that I have not heard him, though I think I can claim to be fairly regular in my attendance in the House.

Did you not?

Have conditions changed because Deputy Davin is now over on that side of the House, and if not, why has he lost interest in a commission to control prices? If the situation which was alleged to exist when Deputy Davin was in opposition has continued, and I hold that it has, then Deputy Davin has been appearing in this House with his tongue in his cheek and has been refusing to criticise the present Government for its failure to produce this prices commission until it was compelled to do so by the criticism directed against it from this side of the House.

From that side?

Yes. A member on this side of the House produced a long list of the prices of essential commodities. Not only was it a long list, but it afforded a fair comparison of the prices which exist to-day and the prices which obtained in 1947. The prices in each case were given, and on that list there was not a single item that had not risen in cost to a considerable extent. The statement that was made by the Deputy was supported by other Deputies on this side. I know, of course, that, when any member on this side attempts to offer that sort of critical examination of any matter in regard to Government policy, it is a popular thing, with members on the Government Benches, to describe it as sabotage. I submit, however, that it was constructive criticism, and I am satisfied myself that, as a result of that constructive criticism, the action which appears now to be contemplated, as revealed by the Tánaiste last night, is about to be taken. It is about to be taken because of the fact that so much publicity has been given to it, and as a result of the facts revealed in the discussion from this side of the House.

Why are you opposing this Bill then?

I am not going to say that the criticism was confined solely to this side of the House. I know that some strong criticism came also from the Government Benches. The fact that that is so confirms me in my solemn belief that the statements which were made from this side of the House were factual statements, and were based on ample evidence. I will go further and say that some of the prices revealed by members on the Government Benches went to prove that the cost of particular commodities, which were indicated, had reached amazing heights, by over 100 per cent. in some cases. That is an extraordinary state of affairs. Deputy Davin must be aware of it, and yet, as far as I am aware—I may be wrong and I do not want to do the Deputy an injustice—I have not heard him make statements in this House in respect of the present Government such as he made in the case of the former Government.

I did on the Budget this year.

Deputy Davin has not been demanding that the prices commission, which at one time appeared to him to be the solution for all our difficulties, should be put into operation. That is the point that I want to make.

This is not a Labour Government, and it is about time the Deputy woke up to that.

We know that.

It is a Fine Gael Government. You are all one now.

The Parliamentary Secretary himself took a hand in that discussion. His contribution was this:—

"I think if any real attempt is to be made, any attempt which will give the public some confidence for the future, it is the immediate establishment of a prices commission with full power to control and examine every proposed additional increase in prices."

I was forecasting what we are doing now.

That may be so; but I am entitled to ask what did you do in the interval of nearly three years. The Deputy's voice can be heard in the counsels of the Government. If the immediate establishment of a prices commission with full power to control and examine every proposed additional increase in prices was a vital necessity then, surely it was his duty to continue to raise that point of view until something was done about it. However, that is the position. The public have enjoyed a little grim humour. It was rather funny to a large number of the public to be told that conditions to-day are on the same level as they were three years ago. As I said, there was a grim humour, but it certainly amused the general public, and the one topic of conversation for the usual nine days was that particular statement.

I sympathise with the Parliamentary Secretary in being made the instrument for making that foolish statement. As I said, this House generally looks forward to realism when a representative of the Government comes into the House with a Bill of the character of the Supplies and Services Bill, and to treat the House as if we were a lot of ignoramuses, as if we were unaware of the situation which existed in regard to the essential requirements of our people is, to say the least of it, treating this House with considerable disrespect.

When we consider the serious economic position of this country and the serious world position outside, it is difficult to see how any Deputy could vote against this simple measure, which seeks to continue the emergency powers in the hands of the Government. We are still in an emergency situation. We are still in a very dangerous and difficult situation, and I think that has been brought home clearly to every Deputy and to the community generally in the last few weeks. No matter what the Government may do or leave undone, they will have an extremely difficult task in order to ensure the provision of essential supplies to keep our people working, to keep our people provided with essentials and to prevent an inflationary spiral developing which will bring about a complete collapse. These tasks are many and difficult.

It was interesting to listen to the trend of the debate during the last couple of weeks, which was, in the main, simply a repetition of charges and counter-charges between the Government Parties and the Opposition, an attempt on the part of one side of the House to prove that the other side were completely wrong, or, at least, no better than those who were making the charges. It is about time that we dropped this futile Party warfare. Deputy McQuillan made a remarkable suggestion. He said that all Parties in this House, with one exception, had come together to co-operate in the formation of a Government; that Fianna Fáil was the only selfish Party which remained out and refused to co-operate. I should like Deputy McQuillan and other members of the Government Party and of the Government to make that a little bit more clear by formally inviting the Fianna Fáil Party, even now, in the present difficult situation, to come forward and enter into the Government and take their full share in meeting the problems that confront us. There are ex-Ministers in the Fianna Fáil Party who have long experience of dealing with these complicated problems, and I am sure that, if they give wholehearted co-operation as members of the Government, they will be able to render service to the nation, particularly in the implementing of this very necessary but, in a free society, somewhat objectionable type of measure.

We all had hoped that, with the end of the world war, we would be able to get away from controls, regulations and restrictions; that we would be able to get rid of what were once described as the "pip-squeak" inspectors going into shops and offices seeking to regulate everybody's business. Apparently, however, we are no further away from the situation in which controls are imposed than ever we were. We, of course, must realise that we are living on a planet which, to say the least, is not in a very happy or settled position. Realising that, this measure would appear to me to be necessary. The most important statement made in the course of this debate was that made by the Tánaiste, in which he declared that the Government were going immediately to set about freezing all wages and prices.

Did he say wages?

I was not present in the House. I would imagine it would be impossible to freeze prices without freezing wages. If this new standstill Order is to be put into operation——

There will be no standstill on wages.

That rather complicates matters. If there is no standstill on wages but a standstill on prices, the administration of that freezing of prices will become more difficult and complicated, because in many industries there may be, in the next few weeks, increases in wages while, at the same time, prices are frozen rigid, and that will naturally result in a collapse somewhere or other unless the control is very efficiently administered, and that is, of course, the most important point in connection with this whole problem. Can we secure efficient control over prices? Can we secure a body in the first place, to control this matter who are unprejudiced, impartial and at the same time efficient and who have under their control efficient machinery for ascertaining what is a just claim or what is not? If there is a freezing of prices, I assume it will be necessary for any firm who wishes to increase prices to go before a tribunal and make a case for that increase.

It is essential that a tribunal required to give a decision on such matters should be an extremely well-informed and efficient body; otherwise the freezing of prices will only result in the disappearance of certain commodities, the closing down of industries and the disemployment of workers. This is a very difficult and a very complex matter. It is one which will have to be handled with the greatest of skill and impartiality. I mention impartiality because some of the speeches I have heard here would seem to indicate that there are Deputies with such a weird class prejudice that they would be quite incapable of making a fair decision in matters of this kind.

I refer in particular to the statement made by Deputy Con Lehane in the course of this debate in which he said: "My appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary is—and I would address it in the same words whether it had reference to bacon, or butter, or whiskey, or beef—do not allow the urban workers to be penalised in order to provide too good a price for the agricultural community." Now the facts of the matter are that our cost-of-living index would be very much higher to-day were it not for the fact that there has been some reduction in the cost at least of rationed foods; and if the increase in agricultural prices had kept pace with the increase in the cost of other goods the cost of living would be many points higher to-day than it actually is. High as it is to-day, it would be much higher if the farmer had demanded the same reward for his services as other sections of the community have demanded for theirs.

Deputy Patrick O'Reilly, who is a very prudent and careful thinking Deputy, asked a question last week which is of supreme importance in considering this matter of how different sections of the community are being rewarded at the present time. The reply to his question revealed that agricultural prices have increased by 188 per cent. since 1914. That may appear a substantial increase. It is a substantial increase. Agricultural prices to-day may be 188 per cent. higher than in 1914, but the prices of clothing are 388 per cent. higher than they were in 1914. If agricultural prices had followed the upward trend of clothing prices the cost of living to-day would be beyond the reach of every section of the community. It is not true to say that the urban population is being penalised to provide too good prices for the farmer. It is a fact that the agricultural population is making tremendous sacrifices and has been making tremendous sacrifices all through the emergency in order to enable the urban population to survive. These facts ought to be realised by those who keep upbraiding and attacking the unfortunate farmer as the nigger in the woodpile, the man who is responsible for the high cost of living.

There is another interesting sidelight in this matter. While agricultural prices have only increased by 188 per cent. since 1914 the farmer has increased the wages of the agricultural worker by 400 per cent. since 1914. That fact was revealed in reply to a question I asked to-day. We have, therefore, the position that there is at least one section of the community which is making an effort to ensure stable conditions here, to ensure that the worker gets a better wage and to ensure that prices are kept at a reasonable level. If those people who deal in foods other than Irish produced foods were to take example by the farmer, both in the manner in which he has increased the wages of his workers and in the manner in which he has refrained from pressing for excessive rewards for himself, then our country would not be faced with the very difficult social and economic problems that confront it to-day.

Deputy McQuillan made a remarkable contribution inasmuch as he suggested when speaking of this new prices tribunal that, since one does not consult criminals when bringing about improvements in prison conditions, so, one has no right to consult industrialists when one is considering the question of controlling prices. I have pointed out that we must engage in industry and commerce and that those who so engage in industry and commerce have received an excessive reward for their services as compared with that given to the farmer but I do not think we should brand any section of our people as criminals. If we intend to control industrial prices, both wholesale and retail prices, we must consult with the people engaged in the particular lines of business; we must hear their case and a tribunal that would refuse to hear the case of any vitally affected party is a tribunal that must fail and, in failing, is bound to inflict very severe hardship upon the community as a whole and in particular upon the poorer sections of it; because if there is a breakdown in production or in distribution it is the poorer sections of the people who will suffer. I do not know whether Deputy McQuillan was speaking on behalf of the Clann na Poblachta Party when he described our business community as bandits. I think I said on another occasion here that it is difficult to frame an indictment against a nation; it is equally difficult to frame an indictment against a class. To describe the entire commercial community as bandits is rather an exaggeration. It does not help in the struggle to ensure that prices will be brought down to a more equitable level. One does not solve problems of this sort by hurling forth wild abuse. I am satisfied that if a reasonable effort is made and if there is co-operation from all Parties, this country will weather the storm. We have considerable natural resources here. This Bill will achieve an equitable distribution of those resources and will help to make them available to those who are prepared to develop them.

The greatest danger facing a community in time of scarcity lies in the fact that there are always some sharks who will try to get control of vital essential commodities and then hold the rest of the community up to ransom. That is always the greatest danger and that is the danger that has to be guarded against. The main purpose, I should imagine, of a Bill such as this is to ensure that that does not happen—that the honest business man and the farmer who is trying to increase production and the honest industrialist—I am quite sure there are still some left—will get the essential supplies they require at a reasonable price, having regard to rural conditions. Some of the unreasonable attacks that have been made on various sections of the community are not actuated by any desire to improve matters—to ensure that prices will be brought down and that the people with the lower incomes will be able to live— but rather to bring about a collapse of our present economic position and impose upon us a Socialist State, embodying the nationalisation of almost every branch of production and distribution. That was the trend of Deputy Larkin's speech from beginning to end. Deputy McQuillan also advocated the nationalisation of a considerable number of industries. Nationalisation is another word for Socialism. Perhaps it is a nicer word but it means just the same thing. It means that still larger sections of our people become servants of the State and, to a larger extent, tools in the hands of politicians—just the same as Miss Helen Cooke in Baltinglass. There ought to be a rearguard action, even if it may only be a rearguard action, to prevent the advance of Socialism. It is advancing too fast.

Reference was made to the need for socialising certain industries. The Electricity Supply Board was quoted as an example of a nationalised industry which is working well. Everybody knows that electricity is a very expensive commodity, particularly if people have no other means of cooking. We all know that it is very expensive and that its costs could be very much reduced. We ought still to cherish the hope that we will get away from Bills of this kind in the near future. At the moment it is hard to see a prospect in that direction, but we ought not to create a situation in which it will never again be possible to have free enterprise and private ownership of property. We ought not to allow emergency measures of this kind to be used to advance the complete socialisation of all production and distribution.

While I am satisfied that food prices are generally too high, having regard to the income of the lower paid worker, I still say that they are very much below the prices of other commodities. Fuel is a very important item in the household budget. Fuel prices have increased and show a tendency to increase still further. We made a grave mistake in that, since the cessation of hostilities, we did not go all out to develop our own fuel resources. We have not done enough in that direction. I think there was altogether too much playing of Party politics in connection with this matter. The fuel dumps in the Park, which were built up during the emergency, were undesirable and expensive but they were measures to meet an emergency situation. In the past few years we should have built up and developed our resources so that such a condition would never occur again. I think we have missed some opportunities in that direction and I hope we shall not continue to miss them. It can truly be said that too much zeal in trying to make Party points does not make for national development. The mills of Party politics grind swift but they grind exceeding coarse—as might have been gathered during the course of this debate to-day and yesterday. A little less Party rancour and bitterness and a little more co-operation from all sides would help us to surmount the difficulties we are facing.

I am one of those who feel that it was not absolutely essential to reintroduce bread rationing. There ought to be quite sufficient supplies of flour and bread to meet the needs of our people without imposing all the annoyance and inconvenience, and, in some cases hardship, which bread rationing entails. I use the word "hardship" deliberately, because in a certain number of places throughout the country the bread ration is insufficient. That may be the position in only a limited number of places, but certainly there are such places. We must remember, too, that bread rationing is a complicated service and, I suppose, an expensive service to the State. In all these circumstances, I do not think that its reintroduction can be justified.

I stated that food prices, while high to the worker in the towns, are lower than the prices of other commodities. I wonder if Deputies realise or ever consider the disparity between the prices which they pay for certain agricultural products in the shops and the price which the ordinary farmer obtains in the country. The Parliamentary Secretary quoted the prices of some foodstuffs. They are contained in the cost-of-living index figure. We see that in mid-August milk cost 7½d. per quart. Do Deputies realise that the great bulk of the milk of this country is bought from farmers throughout the country at 3½d. per quart? The present price of eggs is high and that is a source of worry to the city dweller. I would point out that, for the greater part of the year, eggs are bought from the farmers throughout the country at 2/6 per dozen—and there is a prospect that for the greater part of next year they will be bought at 2/- per dozen. These are all matters which ought to be weighed up very carefully. We ought not to rush headlong into appeals either to Party interests or to class prejudice. We could have, perhaps, unlimited supplies of Irish-produced oaten porridge in this country if some of the powers contained in this Bill were enforced to control the Minister for Agriculture and prevent him from exporting oats at a very cheap price last year. I know and I realise, and it angers me to realise, that we could have a much better economic position in this country if we did not allow ourselves to be injured and hampered by the inhibitions and prejudices of small Party politics.

I want to make one appeal, in conclusion, and that is to consider the great problem of closing the gap between the rising cost of living—and we all agree it is rising in the last few months—and the wages of the lower-paid workers. I think that instead of permitting a further substantial increase in such wages, the Government should consider the alternative of closing that gap by means of increasing the children's allowance and extending children's allowances to every member of the worker's family. In that way you would ensure that the worker, who feels the greater hardship owing to the rise in the cost of living, the man with a number of dependent children, would be enabled to meet the higher cost of living without, at the same time, adding to the cost of production which, in turn, would still further add to the cost of living. We have got to break the vicious circle between rising wages and rising prices, wages chasing prices and prices chasing wages. We have got to try and bridge the gap. I think some increase in the children's allowance would bridge that gap much more effectively than by allowing another substantial increase in wage levels.

I was interested to know from some Deputies who interrupted that it is not intended to freeze wages. It is only intended to freeze prices. I think there is a difficult problem to be faced there. It is a problem which can be solved by helping to increase the income of the lower-paid worker by adding a little to the children's allowance.

The Bill now before the House has been a number of days under discussion here and I am sure that the Government will have benefited very considerably as a result of the advice and discussion that has taken place throughout the last three weeks. This Bill to which we are asked to give a Second Reading is one to continue the Supplies and Services (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1946. There is one additional amendment to it with which I will deal later. The Supplies and Services Act, 1946, was a temporary measure. It was meant to be a temporary measure to tide over the emergency of that period. In that Act there was very far-reaching provision for the Government of the day in different respects in the matter of supplies and services. They had all the emergency powers that were available to the Government during the real emergency between 1939 and 1945. During the passage of that Bill through the Dáil some time in the autumn of 1946 we had from the official Opposition very stern and strong opposition to the passage of that measure to give the Government of that day a continuation of the emergency powers in any respect. The case was made that it might be necessary—and it was necessary—to have those emergency powers. That was so when this present Government took office almost three years ago now. At the time when they took office they got the support that gave them office mainly on the plea that not sufficient had been done by their predecessors to reduce and lower the cost of living. Each and every group that afterwards made up the majority of this House to form a Government promised the electorate in most solemn terms if they had any responsibility for government they would reduce the cost of living. Some of them were going to reduce it by 30 per cent. and some by different amounts. The Fine Gael Party in that Government, the main group, were very strong that the cost of living could be reduced. The present Minister for Finance often told this House that the value of money could be increased. In 1947 he told us that the value of the pre-war £ was only 10/- and he proposed to increase the value of that money. He went so far as to suggest that the best thing that could happen this country in order to increase the value of money was to create a depression in the country.

A Deputy

Quote it.

It can be quoted. It is on the records of the Oireachtas that the Minister for Finance suggested in 1948 that the best thing that could happen this country was for a depression to take place, so as to stop the spending and increase the value of money. That went on very merrily. Powers to prevent any increase in the cost of living were there, if the Government saw fit to use them, but they allowed things to flounder. They were not prepared to take decisions and they had no policy for keeping down prices. Ministers from time to time made announcements and said that things were going well, that the cost of living was being held. The Taoiseach on one occasion said that it had been reduced ten points. That was in 1948, within a short time of their taking office—things had gone so well that they had reduced the cost of living, according to the Taoiseach, by ten points.

We had the Minister for Industry and Commerce—who was probably more responsible for the operation of that Act, the Supplies and Services (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1946, than any other Minister—going down the country, early on in his tenure of office, and making public statements to the effect that traders need no longer fear the pip-squeaks—and by the pip-squeaks was meant the officers of his own Department who were charged with the responsibility of enforcing Price Orders that were then in operation. What could be expected from a Government Department when the Minister calls his own officers pip-squeaks before the public? Could they be expected to have respect for that Minister? Was that an indication to them that they should not bother about enforcing those Price Orders? We know—it is within the knowledge of many members of this House—that where prosecutions were pending when this Government took office and went to court—they could not prevent them from going to court—the decisions of the court were in almost all cases immediately set aside. Terms of imprisonment and fines were set aside in almost 100 per cent. of the cases. No further prosecutions took place. Nothing happened for almost three years to show that the Department were concerned about using the powers in that 1946 Act. Things were allowed to drift. The Minister for Industry and Commerce showed that it was not his concern. His officers were told not to concern themselves with enforcing those Price Orders any longer.

As a result, early in 1949, the public became alarmed. Many of the groups concerned with the cost of living, especially organised Labour, warned the Government at that time on numerous occasions that the cost of living was getting out of hand. In spite of that, Ministers of State continued, both here and in the country, to make statements to the effect that there was no increase. Even down to three weeks ago, we had the Parliamentary Secretary, who introduced this Bill, telling the House and the country that there was no increase in the cost of living. When the people heard that, they threw up their eyes and wondered if they had awakened on some other planet or were still on the planet Earth. Every family—head of a family, housewife or any individual in the community—knew that the cost of living had increased considerably over the past three years.

Early on in their career, in April, 1948, the Taoiseach, at a meeting of the Federation of Irish Industries in Cork, said that living costs must be reduced. A short time later we had the Minister for Industry and Commerce, at the Drapers' Chamber of Trade, saying that the Government may be forced to check imported luxuries. What did the Taoiseach or the Government do from early in 1948 to help to reduce the cost of living? Did the Minister for Industry and Commerce prevent any of these imported luxuries from reaching this country? Is it not a fact that over the last three years the import of luxuries—from borrowed moneys, mark you—increased out of all proportion to our needs? We import such luxuries as palatial motorcars, and even down to cosmetics. These all come from borrowed moneys. There were thousands of other items that were not needed. Luxuries continue to be imported, even down to the present day, and a good proportion of our imports in the last three years from borrowed moneys, from hard currency countries and where the dollars had to be borrowed for them, were not essential to this community at all.

I want to ask the Minister for Justice, who is representing the Government in the House at the moment, whether the import of those luxuries had an effect—and if so, what effect—on the cost of living? We had the Tánaiste coming in here yesterday evening in his usual swashbuckling manner—in the style we all remember when he was Deputy Norton, telling the people of all the errors the Government of that day were making and the damage they were doing to the social welfare of the people—and telling the House that revolutionary things were going to happen and that the industrialists would be scalped. One wonders why the Tánaiste thought fit at the eleventh hour to tell us here that this was the only means at his disposal for reducing the cost of living. What has the Tánaiste, as the deputy head of the Government, done in the past three years, is there a single action of his on record to show that he did anything, or is there any record that the Government as a whole did anything, to prevent the cost of living from rising?

It was well known many months ago to the Government that it was going up. Away back in last June, we had the Minister for Agriculture, on his Estimate, making the following statement, as reported in Volume 121, column 1803, of the Official Debates:—

"Nineteen hundred and forty-seven is the datum year for the cost of living; every cost of living figure since is related back to 1947, which is taken as the datum figure of 100. There has been 40 per cent. devaluation of currency since that datum year was fixed; 40 per cent. Yet the cost of living in this country held the line; despite devaluation of 40 per cent., not one point went on the cost of living. Do you know why? During that period of two years the cost of living rose by 18 points in respect of clothing, rent and rates."

The cost of living, according to the Minister for Agriculture on the 15th June last, had risen 18 points up to that date. Members of the Government have denied that, as late as two weeks ago. Two weeks ago the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, on behalf of the Government, denied it in this House; yet the Minister for Agriculture, and I am sure the other members of the Government, were aware of it on the 15th June last. What have they been doing about it since? Why wait until the middle of December to take any action or proposed action to reduce it or prevent it increasing further?

I should like to ask in what way would the Tánaiste suggest this advisory committee—we have heard it called a tribunal, but it is referred to as an advisory body in the Bill—can reduce the price of particular items. Will the Tánaiste tell me how he proposes to reduce the cost of fuel, as one item? In what way does he suggest this committee can reduce the cost of fuel to the community? Do we not all know that fuel scarcely exists in the country to-day, and that, were it not for the coal in the dump in the Phoenix Park, half the hearths in the Twenty-Six Counties would not have a fire in them to-night? They talk about reducing the price of fuel. No committee the Government can set up is capable of doing that. We know that early in their career as a Government they made little of the production of turf and we know that they did away with it. We know that the Minister for Agriculture condemned the production of turf, and said that he prayed God that the day would soon come when turf, as he said, like wheat and beet, would go up the spout.

Not up the chimney?

What can the country expect when we have one Minister referring to the officers charged with the responsibility of enforcing prices as "pip-squeaks," and another Minister hoping that turf production would go up the spout like wheat and beet? Can the country expect anything but the chaos which exists, when we have a Government composed of Ministers like that? We have been waiting for three years for the Minister for Agriculture to withdraw some of the statements he made in respect of the production of wheat, beet, turf, tomatoes, root seeds, and many other products essential to the existence of this community. We have not got that withdrawal. The House and the country know well that the view of that Minister is the same as the view he always held—he is diametrically opposed to the production of any of these commodities which are so essential for the community.

We would not need to have the present high level of imports, had we a Minister for Agriculture who was concerned with getting produced the crops which the people and animals need for their maintenance. He condemned, and still condemns, the growing of wheat. He is opposed to the growing of beet and he is opposed—as other Ministers must be, as otherwise he would not be allowed to get away with it—to the production of turf. The country has and can have no confidence whatever in the future of this Government, while there are in it Ministers, who, in all their public pronouncements to date, have condemned the production of these crops and the production of fuel from native resources.

This Bill proposes to set up advisory committees. There is one change in this Bill as compared with the Bill introduced 12 months ago. Section 3 provides that "the Minister may from time to time, by Order, provide for the establishment and constitution of bodies of persons to advise him in relation to any of the powers conferred or delegated to him by virtue of the Principal Act and any such Order may contain such ancillary and supplementary provisions as the Minister thinks fit." A lot of play has been made with the great powers the tribunal is to have, but there is no provision in the Bill for any tribunal. It is called a tribunal and assumed to have powers which it has not got. The principal Act does not make any provision for the setting up of any tribunal and it is all a matter of throwing out a sprat to catch a salmon. This is merely a provision made by the Government to placate some of the revolutionary groups behind them who indicated that they were going to vote against them on the Bill. It has placated them so far and no doubt they will trot into the Lobby and vote for the Bill. It is a very small consideration that satisfies the Labour Party in this country. The smallest consideration whatever will satisfy the official political Labour Party and they will accept for the time being any sprat thrown to them by the Government.

The country knows, and nobody is more fully aware of the fact than the Government, that the setting up of these committees will in no way reduce the cost of living. We are told, moryah, that we are to have public discussion on all matters relating to the cost of living in respect of individual items and costs. We had the Tánaiste telling us yesterday that you cannot sell to the public confidence if prices are fixed behind closed doors. The public does not care two hoots where prices are fixed, so long as they are not allowed to rise unduly. It does not matter whether it is done behind closed doors or whether the Minister does it by Order or otherwise, so long as they are fixed and prevented from rising. This thing of ballyhoo and consideration in public as to whether a particular industry should be allowed to increase its prices or not is all nonsense and it just will not work.

It is a long way back to October, 1947, when the previous Government introduced the Supplementary Budget. That Budget and the finances arising from it did effectively reduce the cost of living at that time. It reduced the prices of flour, of bread, of tea, sugar and butter and stabilised them very effectively.

Debate adjourned.
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