Amendments Nos. 1, 2 and 9 go together.
Private Deputies' Business. - Meath Hospital Bill, 1950— Recommittal.
SECTION 1
Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 not moved.
I move amendment No. 3:—
In line 37, to delete "and" and substitute "or".
It is purely a drafting amendment.
With this amendment go amendments Nos. 34, 35, 36 and 37, I think.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 4:—
Between lines 38 and 39 to insert the following definition:—"the expression ‘the joint committee' means the joint committee of the hospital".
This is another drafting amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 5 not moved.
The same applies to amendment No. 11.
I move amendment No. 6:—
To add a new definition as follows:—
the word "resign" means resignation from the joint committee.
It is purely a matter of definition.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 1, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 2.
I move amendment No. 7:—
In line 42, to delete "of the hospital".
It is purely a drafting amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 8:—
In line 43 to delete "expiration of the appointed day" and substitute "day this Act becomes law".
This is to fit in with another amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 9 not moved.
I move amendment No. 10:—
To add a new sub-section as follows:—
(2) During the period between the passing of this Act and the day next after the appointed day all the powers, duties and responsibilities of the joint committee shall be vested in the Dublin City Manager who shall during the said period conduct and manage the hospital and all the affairs and business thereof.
It is an agreed amendment, I understand.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 2, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 3.
Amendment No. 11 not moved.
Section 3 agreed to.
SECTION 4.
Amendment No. 12 not moved.
I move amendment No. 13:—
In sub-section (1), line 13, to delete "of the Hospital".
It is purely a drafting amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 14:—
In sub-section (1), paragraph (f), line 28, to delete "may be".
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 15:—
Before sub-section (2) to insert a new sub-section as follows:—
(2) Every member co-opted under subsection (1) of this section shall, unless he sooner dies or resigns, hold office until the expiration of the first Monday in April in the next election year.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 16:—
In sub-section (2), line 31, to delete "of the hospital".
Amendment agreed to.
It is not necessary to move amendment No. 17.
Amendment No. 17 not moved.
Section 4, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 5 to 8, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 9.
I move amendment No. 18:—
In line 47, delete "a vacancy" and substitute "vacancies".
Amendment agreed to.
Section 9, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 10.
Amendment No. 19 not moved.
I move amendment No. 20:—
To delete sub-sections (2) and (3) and substitute the following:—
(2) Every person who is a governor or governess of the Hospital on the qualifying date shall be qualified to vote at the election of Hospital Corporation members and no other person shall be qualified as entitled to vote at such election.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 21:—
In sub-section (3), paragraph (a), line 11, before "governess" to insert "life".
Amendment agreed to.
Section 10, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 11.
I move amendment No. 22:—
To delete sub-section (5) and substitute the following:—
(5) In the first election year the Hospital Corporation members shall be elected on the proportional representation system by postal vote of the persons qualified to vote at the election; in the first election year the election shall be conducted and carried out by a person appointed for the purpose by the Dublin City Manager in accordance with rules made by the Dublin City Manager; in any election year (other than the first election year) the Hospital Corporation members shall be elected by vote of the persons qualified to vote at the election and the election shall be conducted and carried out by a person appointed for the purpose by the joint committee in accordance with rules made by the joint committee.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 23:—
In sub-section (6), line 42, before "governess" to insert "life".
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 24:—
In sub-section (7), line 48, to delete "of the Hospital".
Amendment agreed to.
Section 11, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 12.
I move amendment No. 25:—
Before Section 12 to insert a new section as follows:—
(1) The joint committee shall, at its first meeting after each election, elect one of its members to be chairman of the joint committee and another of its members to be vice-chairman of the joint committee.
(2) Every person elected to be chairman or vice-chairman of the joint committee shall, unless he sooner dies, resigns or becomes disqualified, hold office as chairman or vice-chairman until his successor is elected.
(3) Whenever the office of chairman or vice-chairman becomes vacant through the death, resignation or disqualification of the chairman or vice-chairman, the joint committee shall at the next meeting after such vacancy has taken place elect one of its members to be chairman or vice-chairman.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 26:—
Before Section 12 to insert a new section as follows:—
An annual meeting of the governors and governesses of the hospital and the members of the joint committee shall be held in the hospital on a date to be appointed by the joint committee; at the annual meeting a general report on the hospital shall be made by the chairman of the joint committee and such other business as the joint committee authorise shall be transacted.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 27:—
To delete lines 50 and 51.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 28:—
In sub-section (2), line 55, before "before" to insert "on or".
Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That Section 12, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
I think, in view of the history of this Bill, that there is something wrong about sub-section (2) of Section 12. We have at the moment four very eminent professional men appointed by the present joint committee governing the hospital. It is proposed in this sub-section:—
"Where a person was, after the sixth day of December, 1950, and before the appointed day, appointed to any office, then, notwithstanding the terms and conditions on which he was appointed, the joint committee may, without assigning any reason therefor, dismiss or remove him from that office."
Should that come to pass, I think it would be a great hardship and it would be absolutely unjust on those very eminent men who were appointed recently to the staff of that hospital. We have amendment No. 5 in opposition to the section by Deputy Cogan. I do not know if it is the intention of Deputy Cogan to move that amendment.
It is not.
Is it within the power of any Deputy to move the rejection of the sub-section?
The Deputy may oppose the section.
I wish to oppose it then on these grounds.
I rise to associate myself very strongly and very thoroughly with the remarks made by Deputy T. O'Sullivan. I have received information concerning the grave hardships that are likely to be inflicted on the very able and distinguished doctors who have been appointed to the staff. They have been threatened that immediately on the passing of this Bill their services will be terminated. I shall have something to say on the Fifth Stage of the Bill, but I believe that if this section is allowed to remain that this House is inflicting very grave hardships on these men. It is well known that there is a very strange movement at the back of the scenes in this connection. Only recently one of the men appointed received a communication from the Meath Hospital signed by Cecil W. Robinson, secretary of the Medical Board. The letter which he received is in these terms:—
"Dear Sir,
I am instructed by the Medical Board to forward the enclosed copy of the Meath Hospital Bill, 1950, as amended in Select Committee. For your information please——"
Section 12 is marked with X's and stripes, directing his attention to the fact that when the House passes the section, the door is waiting for him. In other words it says: "This is to tell you to clear from the Meath Hospital. Get out. The moment we get power in our hands you are going to go." I am satisfied that the moment this threat was passed on from the Secretary of the Medical Board to this well-known doctor, that it was the first intimation that he should leave the Meath Hospital. It is a clear kick in the pants to the board who made that appointment. You have an appointment made on the 15th February and on the 16th February a letter, with a copy of the Bill, on which there are crosses and stripes intended to denote the seriousness of it, is sent to one of these men. I believe this section is very damaging to these good men. I believe it is a section that, if not deleted, is going to create a lot of disturbance. It will arouse in the country an interest in the power of secret organisations that will be alarming. I ask the House to reject this section. I am glad that Deputy T. O'Sullivan has opposed it, because if he had not risen to oppose it, I would have done so. I believe that grave hardship will be inflicted on these men by this section. They were the best qualified and the most highly qualified candidates for the post. I know that the members of the present committee of management would not have appointed these men if they did not think that they were the most suitable and highly qualified candidates for these positions. For that reason I join with Deputy T. O'Sullivan in asking the House that this section be deleted from the Bill because otherwise it will be the means of creating disorder and high tension in the minds of certain people who have information at their disposal concerning the whole outfit.
As Chairman of the Select Committee, I think I should inform the House that this sub-section was unanimously agreed to by the Select Committee. All the appointees, the gentlemen who were appointed last Thursday, must have had knowledge that this sub-section was in the Bill as amended in Select Committee, so that no grave hardship is being imposed on anybody by this Bill.
I feel to a certain extent that I have a grievance against the House because, on Second Reading, I did suggest to the House that consideration of the Second Reading should be deferred for a period of 12 months. I found myself alone in that view and could not get endorsement of the opinions to which I gave expression from any section of the House. I would gather from some of the observations made by Deputy O'Sullivan and Deputy Flanagan that, perhaps, if they had been in the House they might have taken a similar view of the section to that to which I gave expression. Having said that let me go on to make this case to Deputy Flanagan: I believe that the Bill to which the House gave a Second Reading, was in its then form a bad one, and one which I would feel justified in asking the House at some subsequent stage to reject. But the Bill that was given into the hands of the Select Committee, over which Deputy McCann presided, is now, having been dealt with by that Select Committee, a very different measure. The main change that has been made in the Bill as will be obvious to Deputies, is that the principle of democratic and popular control of this voluntary hospital has been accepted. To my mind, it is almost a misnomer in present circumstances to speak of voluntary hospitals because of purely voluntary hospitals we have now practically none, with perhaps one exception. The principle of democratic and popular control, having been accepted, and unanimously accepted, by the Select Committee, I would suggest to Deputy Flanagan that the Bill now being considered by the Dáil on recommittal is substantially a different Bill.
There may be a good deal of weight and justice in his observations concerning the medical gentlemen recently appointed, but I would suggest to the House that the most useful way to approach this Bill is to approach it objectively, divorced completely from the situation which Deputies know exists outside. The method which the Select Committee adopted in considering the various amendments, and in bringing the Bill into its present form : the touchstone which they applied was, to what extent can we evolve a Bill which will be a model for the governors in control not only of the Meath hospital, which is in question in this case, but of all other voluntary hospitals. There has been a good deal of partisanship feeling about this Bill. I repeat that I believe that, as initiated, it was a bad Bill. I believe that its parentage was open to question, but I think the job done by the Select Committee on the Bill has legitimised it and given it a respectable appearance, and that the Dáil need not now be ashamed of it or be afraid to pass it.
I think it is only fair to Deputy Flanagan and to Deputy O'Sullivan who have just spoken to say that neither of these Deputies sees anything generally in the Bill. I think it is fairly well agreed that the Bill, in general, is a good one. These two Deputies expressed their opposition in particular to sub-section (2) of Section 12. I do not have to take Deputy Con Lehane's advice, but I will, if he wants me to, divorce my mind entirely from the background which led up to the introduction and to the bringing of this Bill to its present stage. Suffice it to say that these appointments were recently made by a properly constituted board. That was so held in a decision given in our High Court of Justice. These appointments were made as a result of advertisements issued or at least of one advertisement which was inserted in the Irish Medical Journal. That, in itself, was an indication to those reading the Medical Journal that the advertisement had all the appearance of being a bona fide advertisement with, impliedly, the blessings of the Irish Medical Association and their approval. The 20 surgeons who responded to that advertisement must be taken to have responded to it in good faith. They responded to the advertisement a long time before this letter, written by this Meath hospital official, was posted to the appointees.
By Mr. Robinson.
The letter was posted either the day before or the day after the appointments were made.
The next day.
A good many days subsequent to the advertisement appearing in the Medical Journal, and a good many days subsequent to the response by the 20 applicants to that advertisement. Therefore, these applicants, many of whom were resident outside this country at the time, getting experience to make themselves better qualified to fulfil their mission whenever they came back home, must be presumed to have acted in good faith in responding to that advertisement.
Without delving too deeply into the history of this hospital, I think it is generally agreed that this was the first occasion on which any advertisement was inserted or any applicants were called or at least notice of vacancies in the hospital was conveyed generally through any public means to would-be applicants for a post in that hospital. Therefore, it makes the position of the men who were subsequently appointed all the more serious to have this postfactum amendment inserted in the Bill on the Committee Stage. It is post-factum in so far as that they had applied for the job, that they had gone through their interview and that the best men were selected.
It should be known, too, that two senior degrees were necessary before a man's application was even considered. As far as I know, it is usual to accept a senior degree before any surgeon is appointed to any voluntary or public hospital in this country, but when two senior degrees are necessary and when each of the men who applied had two senior degrees, it must be presumed, beyond doubt, that the men who got the appointments were well qualified in every way, and were well suited to carry out the duties expected from them as members of the medical staff of the Meath hospital.
Now, within the last 20 or 25 years the National University of Ireland has sent out graduates to practise in their various professions in this country and outside of it. I say that it is to the eternal credit of the teaching staffs of the university that these graduates can take their place with the best to be found in any country and in any faculty. I think that has been exemplified to the full in the case of the medical appointments that have been made in this country of young graduates of the National University of Ireland. Many of those young men went abroad to get experience in the best hospitals in the world, under the best and most eminent surgeons and medical men, and then came back to their own country ready and willing to bestow their knowledge for the benefit of their own people at home who might be in need of it. Many of those young men were, and are, the sons of poor people. Their parents had to make tremendous sacrifices to put their sons through their university and medical courses. It has to be said to the credit of those young men that they did not waste the opportunities they got or the hard-earned money of their parents.
With regard to the necessity for these appointments, I am informed that, at the time these appointments were advertised, there were in this hospital four surgeons in all, one general surgeon and three specialist surgeons. The general surgeon, I am informed, was a man of advanced years, while the three specialist surgeons included a man who is internationally famous and whose reputation is second to none in any part of the world in his own sphere. As regards the other two, one was a specialist in the ear, nose and throat, and the other in gynaecology. Therefore it is eminently clear to anybody that more appointments were needed for the proper administration of this hospital. These appointments were advertised by the board because it realised that, and also in the hope that it would get suitable men well qualified to fulfil the duties which apparently were waiting to be fulfilled in this hospital. I move to report progress.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again to-morrow.