Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Mar 1951

Vol. 124 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Vote 30—Garda Síochána.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Morrissey)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £48,550 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1951, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Garda Síochána (No. 7 of 1925, No. 10 of 1926, No. 5 of 1937, No. 19 of 1941, Nos. 1 and 17 of 1945) and for payments of compensation and other expenses arising out of service in the Local Security Force (No. 19 of 1946 and No. 15 of 1949).

The gross amount under the various sub-heads is £54,328, but as there will be an estimated surplus of £5,778 on appropriations-in-aid, the net additional sum required is £48,550. Deputies will have noticed from the Estimate that additional provision is required under seven sub-heads, the two main items being £20,497 under sub-head A in respect of salaries, wages and pay and £28,884 under sub-head E in respect of clothing and equipment.

The estimated increased expenditure under sub-head A is due to the fact that the number of retirements during the period to date has been less than was anticipated. The original estimate was framed on the basis of a strength of 5,550 Gardaí on the 1st April, 1950, whereas the strength on that date was 5,576. Further, there were fewer retirements.

Sub-heads C and D deal with subsistence allowances and locomotion allowance. The excesses of £1,200 and £1,000 under these sub-heads respectively are due to increased expenditure on (a) duty in connection with the local elections and (b) payment of arrears of subsistence allowance under the Garda Síochána Allowances Order, 1949. This expenditure was not anticipated when the Estimates were being framed.

Sub-head E deals with clothing and equipment. The sum of £28,884 under this sub-head is mainly required to pay for belated deliveries of clothing which were expected prior to 31st March, 1950, and for which provision was made in the 1949-50 Estimates. Provision is also necessary and had been made to meet the cost of early deliveries of cloth for Garda uniforms to the value of £7,650 for the year 1951-52. No deliveries of this cloth were expected prior to 1st April next.

Sub-head F—furniture, barrack bedding and bedsteads — the extra provision of £1,227 under this sub-head is mainly required in consequence of the purchase of bedding and mattresses which it was anticipated would have been delivered and paid for before the 31st March, 1950. Sub-head I—fuel and light and water—the excess of £1,000 under this sub-head is due to the general rise in the price of fuel. Sub-head M — compensation — the expenditure under this sub-head is always conjectural and the commitments to the 31st March next will necessitate the provision of the additional amount shown—£520.

Mr. G. Boland

I propose to confine my remarks to sub-head A. I gathered from the Minister that he anticipates the force should have been reduced to 5,550. I do not know whether he is satisfied if that is enough. I agree there is a case for reorganisation, say, in the City of Dublin. I recently read in the newspapers—I suppose the Minister's attention was drawn to it, too—about an experiment that was tried in Salford in England and also in Aberdeen for the better running of the police forces in those cities. Whether it has been better than the old system or not I do not know, but it appears to have been more efficient. I think that at the present time the Minister and the Government are very badly advised to reduce the strength of the Gardaí in small country stations, until, at any rate, the emergency conditions have entirely disappeared. That may take some time. I think it is a great mistake altogether. I had occasion to draw the attention of the Minister's predecessor to that on a couple of occasions when speaking on the main Estimate. I think myself that the work of a non-police nature which the Gardaí do is done much better and more cheaply than it could otherwise be done. I think that if other inspectorial work was delegated to the Gardaí it would be done better and cheaper than it is. In addition, I believe myself that we would be giving, as we had been doing up to recently, a fairly good service to the people in those districts. In remote places people feel more comfortable if they know there is a Garda station in the area. I certainly felt, along with a lot of other people, a bit upset when it was found necessary, owing to a reduction in the strength of the Guards in the country districts, to cut off the telephone service at 11 p.m. I know that you cannot use a Garda station as a telephone exchange, but it is very useful for the people in remote places. I may be wrong, but the report which appeared in the Press gave us to understand that, owing to lack of personnel, the telephone facilities which were available in these districts were being cut off. That is a very serious state of affairs.

I do not want to make much capital out of a question that was asked in the Dáil last week, but it is a fact and the Minister is aware of it, that there has been a reorganisation drive by an illegal organisation which has necessitated the increasing of the guard on certain people. In view of that and the fact that a political organisation had on its agenda the question of extending that drive to the country, I think it is a very bad time to reduce the Garda strength in the country districts. I hope the Minister will not allow the strength of the Garda to fall any lower than it is. Since this State was set up I think the strength of the Garda was always about 7,000. Now, apparently, the Minister has estimated that it will drop to 5,500. I do not know what figure it is meant ultimately to arrive at, but I put it to the Minister that he ought not to rely on the introduction of mechanical transport and the suggestion of having the Guards concentrated in towns and going around and paying an occasional visit to other districts and closing up the country stations until conditions are better and more stable than they are at present.

Mr. Morrissey

Perhaps I may not have made it sufficiently clear. The 5,550 refers to Guards only and the total strength will be 6,950.

Mr. G. Boland

Has the Minister any idea when the committee which has been set up will report? Is it part of their policy to close down these small stations? That is what I am concerned about. From what I read about the experiment which has been tried out, of having a sergeant and nine Guards with cars and transmitting and receiving sets, it has been a success. They appear to have been able to do much better work, but I do not know whether it was more costly. That may be all right in Dublin which would lend itself to that kind of experiment. But the closing down of the country stations should not be proceeded with. I hope the new Minister will examine the matter from the point of view of our past experience and hesitate to go too far in that direction until things have settled down more than they have up to the present.

Captain Cowan

I want to say a few words on the topic mentioned by Deputy Boland. We ought to comp liment ourselves as a nation on the fact that there is so little serious crime in the country and that for a long period there has been very little serious crime. That tendency has been gradually developing and, with that development, naturally there must be a complete reorganisation of and a totally different attitude of mind towards the forces of law and order. The forces of law and order are the Garda. Deputy Boland approaches this problem from the viewpoint that we had approximately 7,000 Guards, that we had Garda stations all over the country and that it would be unwise to interfere with that organisation. The Deputy knows as well as I do that originally the police organisation was established for purposes not entirely connected with peaceful conditions as we understand them. These police stations were established here, there and everywhere through the country, not for the maintenance of law and order, but for the purpose of spying on the people. The day when it is necessary to spy on the people has long since departed. Consequently, the attitude of the Minister and of the Department in trying to bring about a rational reorganisation of the force was a good thing.

I have often thought it an extraordinary thing that we should have these Garda stations through the country with five or six Gardaí and a sergeant apparently doing no very useful work, although at the same time they were fully occupied doing this, that or the other thing. We might, with advantage, experiment with the idea of a single Garda living at home to whom complaints might be made, from whom advice might be sought and who would be in touch with a well-organised police force in the larger towns in which there would be specialists of all kinds to come on the scene right away if anything out of the way occurred. In that way we could have all the assistance that the public requires from the Garda made available and at the same time have a very efficient Garda force to deal with any crime that may arise. Complaints have been made that there is difficulty in finding recruits for the force.

Mr. Morrissey

Some of us never heard of it.

Captain Cowan

I think it is so. If you open up recruiting, you can get a very large number of highly-educated young men who will apply for admission to the Garda. After a year or two or three years, however, they may find that persons with the same educational qualifications who went into other walks of life are doing much better or they may find that some of their comrades who go to serve, say, in the London police, are doing much better and are being promoted quickly. Those very keen, intelligent, well-educated young men will become dissatisfied and, after a short period, they will be anxious to obtain their discharge and leave the force. That means a tremendous waste in training. The training that a Garda undergoes is a very intensive form of training and requires a concentrated effort.

Mr. G. Boland

On a point of order. I confined myself to the strength, because I thought that on a Supplementary Estimate I could not deal with other aspects. Naturally I do not want the Gardaí to think that I am not interested in an increase in pay for them. I did not discuss that, because I did not think I would be in order. If it is in order, I claim the right to speak on it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Cowan, so far, has not dealt with any item on this Estimate.

Mr. G. Boland

I intend to raise other important matters on the main Estimate.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Cowan did the very same yesterday when the Army Estimate was under discussion.

Mr. G. Boland

I have been cut out by keeping within the rules of order.

Captain Cowan

Deputy Boland has the great advantage of having been in the House for a great many years and he knows very well what he must avoid. As a novice, I may cross the line and I thank the Chair for the consideration with which my efforts have been treated. I was endeavouring to point out to the Minister that we need reorganisation. I think I am quite in order in doing that. I want to make sure that, having recruited our force to the proper strength, we shall not have a tremendous wastage through young men——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is now back on the same track.

Captain Cowan

Not altogether the same. It is a slightly different path.

Mr. G. Boland

I shall certainly have a grievance if the Deputy keeps on.

Captain Cowan

Deputy Boland has this funny bee in his bonnet about illegal organisations. What one needs to deal with the problems that may arise is a sensible Garda force which will not be misled by statements made here, there or anywhere else. We certainly do not need something on the lines of the old Royal Irish Constabulary. I hope the Minister will follow in the footsteps of his predecessor who is now Minister for Defence. I hope the Gardaí will be encouraged to do their ordinary work and not be encouraged into being led astray by statements made here by Deputy Boland which may have the effect of making them seek out somebody who may be——

Mr. G. Boland

Carrying guns.

Captain Cowan

——making patriotic declarations here or elsewhere.

Mr. G. Boland

Carrying guns is a very different matter. I do not mind what declarations are made.

Captain Cowan

We have had two approaches. We have had Deputy Boland's approach, the big stick. Where did it lead us?

Mr. G. Boland

To peace.

Captain Cowan

It led us into an enormous amount of trouble.

An Ceann Comhairle

That has nothing to do with this Estimate. The Deputy should really come to some of the items on the Estimate.

Captain Cowan

Deputy Boland talks about these illegal organisations.

An Ceann Comhairle

Not very much.

Captain Cowan

I hope the Minister will follow the wise headline set and the wise administration of his immediate predecessor, General MacEoin. I believe he will do that. In doing that it should be possible to find opportunities for bringing about the type of reorganisation I suggest, the village Garda who would be there not for the purpose of spying on his neighbours, but for the purpose of assisting them.

There are many comp licated problems in the City of Dublin. The East Wall area has been looking for a Garda station for many years past. The citizens regard these stations as places where they can get sound and useful advice. The city is growing enormously and we need a bigger force. We need more stations. In addition to all that, we can then have this mobility about which Deputy Boland spoke. I am always glad to hear judges comp liment the Gardaí on their efficiency and the speed with which they manage to reach places where crimes have been committed and the way in which they deal with those crimes. We need reorganisation on rational lines. I hope the Minister will not be influenced in any way by this unfortunate swan song from Deputy Boland on illegal organisations and armies.

Mr. Byrne

I support Deputy Boland in his request that the Garda Síochána should not be reduced in strength. If anything, I think it should be increased. Last year 20,000 additional motor cars were registered. Motor traffic is growing on the outskirts of the city since it has become so difficult to get through the main thoroughfares with a resultant danger to school children. I think the time will come very shortly when a Garda officer will have to be placed on duty at every school at times when the children are either arriving or leaving the schools. Some of the thoroughfares which used to be merely secondary roads have now become main traffic arteries and in the interests of the children there should be someone on duty to regulate the traffic on these roads.

I think the time has come, too, when the Gardaí will have to go on traffic control duty earlier. It is impossible to cross O'Connell Bridge in the morning between 8.30 and 9 o'clock because of the density of traffic with all the people going to work. I think the Gardaí should be on duty earlier in the morning. The same is true, too, of the evening when the workers are going home, and others are coming in to theatres and so on. One has only to look at the numbers of bicycles parked in O'Connell Street to see the number of people on the road just at the time when the traffic policeman is going off duty. I would support the idea of increasing the Garda Estimate for the purpose of improving the conditions generally for the Guards. Deputy Cowan, as a member of the corporation housing committee, as I am, is perfectly aware that a new Guard cannot get housing accommodation and that a Guard who had been living in Dublin and had been transferred to the country and is retransferred to Dublin and who, in the meantime, has been married and has two or three children, cannot get housing accommodation at twice the amount of money that is allowed for rent. The rent allowance should be increased to give him a chance to meet the demand that is made on him. The general conditions would warrant an improvement all round. I do not intend to say any more. I do not want to go into the details. I looked at the Estimate to see how far I could go and, if I were to go any further, I, like Deputy Cowan, would be thanking the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to go a little further than I should.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has had considerable experience.

Mr. Byrne

I will wait for another opportunity.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not a novice like Deputy Cowan.

Mr. G. Boland

Perhaps he wanted to be a novice. He is three years here now. He ought to know something by this time.

Mr. Byrne

I would ask the Minister seriously to consider the question of school and traffic duties and to increase the number of Guards on these duties at various points. There are places where, a year or two years ago, it was not thought necessary to have a traffic Guard on duty but where it is necessary now. I have in mind places on the outskirts of the city and thoroughfares where the traffic has greatly increased. Deputy Cowan is keenly interested in the Donnycarney area. The number of traffic Guards there should be increased.

Major de Valera

In regard to the maintenance of the strength of the force, I would like to draw the Minister's attention to something we have seen published within the last few days. I read a report in the papers of a case where, apparently, a house-breaking or larceny of some description was committed at the far side of the country—County Galway, I think. It seems from the report that the technique in that case was to steal a car in Dublin, use it to convey the perpetrators of the crime to Galway, and steal another one in the vicinity of Galway to get back. That was the inference one drew from the facts, as I read them. I want to make it quite clear that I have no further information beyond what I read in the paper. That, obviously, brings up the question of quick communication between Gardaí. Although it does not come on this Estimate, the question of telephone facilities after 11 o'clock at night is a serious matter and the question of having Guards in a position to intercept such operations quickly is an important matter. That gets back to the question of strengths, which is relevant here, and I would ask the Minister to bear these considerations in mind in support of any proposals to increase the strength of the force.

The importance of that force to the community nobody will minimise, and how much this State owes to its police force for the quiet, silent and extremely efficient work which that force has done in the past years of its history, will never really be appreciated. It deserves well of the community and it deserves the support of the community in enforcing the peace of the community. For these reasons, I would like to add my voice to the voices of other Deputies in encouraging the Minister to give that force all the facilities and all the strength it needs.

Mr. Kissane

The question of the reorganisation of the Garda Síochána has been referred to. I do not know what great need there is for reorganisation because, in my view, the Garda Síochána as it now stands is doing very good work and has been doing very good work since it was established. This idea of reorganisation tends more to undermine the morale of the force than anything else. I had a question on the Order Paper to-day to inquire about the activity of this inter-departmental committee that was set up to inquire into the question of the reorganisation of the Garda Síochána. My reason for asking that question was the fact that I have found a certain amount of uneasiness among members of the Garda Síochána because they do not know what the future has in store for them. Some of them think that they will be retired. Others think that there is a move being made to extend the age. They do not know where they are.

The retirement age at present, I understand, is 57. Some time ago it was rumoured that the age was to be extended. I do not know, of course, whether the Minister or the commissioner has considered that aspect of the case but, in any case, I do not think it is right that there should be all this talk about the reorganisation of the Garda Síochána or about what Deputy Cowan described as the "reorganisation of the Garda Síochána on rational lines," as much as to say that the organisation has been proceeding on irrational lines up to now. I think the Garda Síochána can be compared favourably with the police force of any country.

Deputy Cowan also referred to the question of maintaining peace in this country and one would imagine by the way he spoke that it is only since the present Government came into office that we have peace.

Captain Cowan

That is all.

Mr. Kissane

There was peace in this country five years before the present Government came into office.

An Ceann Comhairle

It cannot be discussed on this Estimate.

Mr. Kissane

And the reason that there was not peace for some years before that was that there was an illegal organisation in this country willing to take advantage of the situation.

Mr. O'Leary

Like the man alongside you.

An Ceann Comhairle

That has nothing to do with the Estimate.

Mr. Kissane

Since we are talking about the question of peace in the country, I would like to inquire what is the reason that the guard on certain ex-Ministers has been increased within recent weeks. We would like to get an explanation from the Minister of that.

Captain Cowan

Maybe it was to ease the work.

Mr. Kissane

What is the justification for increasing the protection guard on certain ex-Ministers during the past couple of weeks and, especially, and above all, what was the reason that one ex-Minister was told that the position was such that he would be advised to carry a gun?

Captain Cowan

Was that official advice?

Mr. Kissane

We would like to know from the Minister and the Government on what basis or for what reason that advice was given to an ex-Minister of the former Government. If we are to put that in juxtaposition with the assertion that we have peace in the country, it is very difficult to understand it.

Mr. O'Leary

There is no shooting now.

Mr. Kissane

Of course, there has been a bomb thrown recently and a few other extraordinary outrages of the kind.

Mr. Traynor

Was that Deputy Cowan's army going into action?

Captain Cowan

It will show us something more effective than that, I hope.

Mr. Kissane

It must be remembered, when we are dealing with this question of the organisation or the reorganisation of the Garda Síochána——

Mr. Morrissey

We are not supposed to be.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in this Estimate.

Mr. G. Boland

With all respect, I suggest it is—the reduction in the strength of the Garda.

Mr. Morrissey

But this is because there was not a reduction in the strength.

Mr. G. Boland

A greater reduction than was anticipated—that is what I was dealing with.

An Ceann Comhairle

This covers an additional sum required for the Garda Síochána.

Mr. G. Boland

And it gives the reason there. It says the strength was not as low as was anticipated.

An Ceann Comhairle

It indicates the strength is greater than was anticipated.

Mr. G. Boland

I understood it was quite relevant to discuss those aspects.

Mr. Kissane

If the Ceann Comhairle does not consider it relevant, I do not propose to pursue this matter, but I would remind the Minister it is a very dangerous and very unwise thing to allow the strength of the Garda Síochána to fall below such a figure. I think the figure is as low as it can be. The figure given was 5,500. I do not consider that a sufficient strength for the Garda Síochána.

This idea of closing down barracks all over the country, which was mooted recently, does not appeal to me or to the people of the country. They think we should leave very well alone. In allowing the strength of the Garda Síochána to fall to such a low figure, I am afraid we are being penny wise and pound foolish.

Deputy Boland has already referred to the night telephone service. There have been rumours that a move is being made to close that service down here and there. I think that would be a disastrous thing, because the general public have found the night telephone service in these Garda centres of great benefit. The Government would be well advised to set their faces against any proposal of that kind. The Minister's predecessor told me last week, in reply to a question, that there was no such proposal. I hope that is true. It would be very unwise to close down that telephone service.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Has the Minister anything to do with that?

Mr. Morrissey

The Deputy is referring to the closing of telephones in the barracks.

Mr. Kissane

Yes, due to lack of personnel. If the strength of the force is to go down below a certain figure, the personnel will not be there to operate that telephone service. I do not know if it would be relevant on this occasion to inquire if the Department and the Commissioner are making sure that Irish-speaking Guards are being sent to the Gaeltacht.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I suggest that that is more a question of policy; it is clearly a question of policy, and more for the main Estimate.

Mr. Traynor

It would appear to me that sub-head A of this Supplementary Estimate is almost in the form of an apology for the fact that the Garda Síochána is even at its present strength. It more or less suggests that if it had been possible, that sum which is in excess of the former Estimate and which is now required would not have been there. I would like to see a greater amount proposed for the purpose of meeting extra strength, additional recruits, rather than that we should be, as it were, apologising for the fact that the Garda is as strong a force as it is.

The City of Dublin, as Deputy Byrne has already mentioned, is continually growing and, naturally, the duties of the Garda in the city, whatever may be the position in the country—and I do not propose to discuss the country because I would not know anything about the Garda position there—are becoming much heavier. The situation in the city is certainly becoming embarrassing for the Garda. We see men doing excellent work as pointsmen on traffic duty. How they maintain their good humour in the circumstances which surround them, and the difficulty of standing there for hours on such duty, passes my comprehension. The fact remains that there are only a few of the positions sentinelled, as it were, by these pointsmen. There are many more positions throughout the city crying out for a similar service.

I can hardly imagine the Minister would be a party to allowing the Garda Síochána to be reduced below its present figure. The Minister corrected the former Minister in regard to the figure of 5,500. He informed him that it was 7,000. That is correct, and we cannot dispute that. The point is there are 1,450 men in plain clothes. Naturally, these men must work in the most unobtrusive fashion possible. They cannot advertise themselves as policemen; if they are to do their duty they must keep in the background. Their work is of such a specialised kind that they can be only of limited use to the uniformed police.

One of the tests of whether the police force is sufficient to meet existing circumstances is the number of undiscovered crimes in the Twenty-Six Counties. We know there are large numbers of crimes committed, burglaries and other crimes of one kind or another, and no person has ever been detained in connection with them. I wonder would that position be changed if greater patrol duties were carried out in the suburban areas of Dublin? We have been reading for a considerable time of the campaign of burglaries in suburban areas. The gentlemen who carry out these burglaries seem to be doing it in a reasonably organised manner. They will go to one area to-day and carry out their work and then transfer their activities to the opposite side of the city where they are not expected. That sort of thing is very difficult to control. It might not be so difficult if there were more uniformed Gardaí available.

I do not intend to follow Deputy Cowan along the lines he pursued. He is an adept at getting out of order, but he manages to do it for a considerable time before he is brought to book. If I were to do that, I would be rightly ruled out of order. Therefore, I do not intend to do it. Deputy Cowan manages to do that in an expert manner, but when he observes anyone else going off the line in the slightest way he manages to take over the duties of the Ceann Comhairle and do a sort of felon-setting by drawing the Ceann Comhairle's attention to the matter. I do not intend to follow that line. In conclusion, I would ask the Minister, now that he is assuming such a responsible office, to give some reconsideration to the proposed reduction of the police force. I should like to express strongly the opinion that that question should seriously be reconsidered.

Mr. Morrissey

Most of the matters, in fact nearly all the matters, which were raised in the course of the debate are amongst those that have been considered by this committee about which Deputy Kissane had a question on the Order Paper to-day. As I informed the Deputy, and as I now inform the House, the report of the committee will be available in the next few months. I am not going to forecast, nor can I forecast, what the recommendations will be. I doubt if they will be such as to confirm many of the fears expressed here to-day. Let me say right off, or rather let me repeat what was said by General MacEoin last week, that there is no truth whatever about the reports circulated in newspapers and through other channels, in regard to rural Garda stations closing down at 11 p.m. There is no truth whatever either that Garda stations in the rural areas are going to be deprived of the telephonic facilities which they have enjoyed up to the present except in certain small stations where, because of leave of absence or illness, the strength of the station falls below a certain number. It is only for that reason that there would be any curtailment. I fully agree with Deputies that the telephonic facilities which were made available in local Garda stations, particularly in remote rural areas, were of benefit to the local community, especially in cases of emergency, but let me say also—and I knew this before I became Minister for Justice— that in most areas there was a tendency to abuse these facilities.

Mr. G. Boland

Quite true, there was.

Mr. Morrissey

While I fully appreciate the value of these facilities to the public, I certainly would not stand for a moment for the abuse of them, an abuse to such an extent as would interfere with the Guards in the performance of their ordinary duties.

Again, in case the public might get the impression from all that has been said here, that there has been a very big reduction in the Garda forces, the fact of the matter is that the average strength of the Garda over the years has been about 7,200. The present strength is approximately 6,950 or 7,000. In regard to the question of the size of the force, my view is that the force should be as large as will be required to safeguard the rights of the law-abiding citizens of the country. So far as I am concerned, I would not approve of any move to reduce the number of the Garda merely for the sake of economy, but Deputies, I think, will agree that you might get a more efficient service as well as a more economical service by reorganisation. Deputy Kissane said he saw no reason whatever why there should be any reorganisation. Everything which was said by other Deputies made it perfectly clear that the changing circumstances of the country and the shifting of the population in the country, in themselves would call for a reorganisation of the Garda. I am rather sorry that Deputy Kissane took the line he did. I would not wish that any member of the force should feel in any way uneasy and I have no hesitation in saying that no member of the force need feel in any way uneasy, need feel that he is going to be treated badly in any way or that his position will be made any worse than it is to-day. Again I must say I do not understand why Deputy Kissane thought it desirable to take the line he did, asking all sorts of questions about additional Guards. I felt like asking Deputy Kissane when he was raising questions about this, that and the other, what his reason was for dragging all this out in public.

Mr. G. Boland

He said that Deputy Cowan said that I had a bee in my bonnet about reorganisation. I have no such thing.

Mr. Morrissey

Do not take me as agreeing with the statement about people having bees in their bonnets.

Captain Cowan

You know very well he has.

Mr. Morrissey

There are very few of us who escape having bees in our bonnets at some time or other.

Mr. G. Boland

I have every reason to have. I have people at my heels day and night. If Deputy Cowan had that experience he would have reason to have a bee in his bonnet, too.

Mr. Morrissey

I want to join in the tributes paid to members of the force by members of the Opposition. It is a force of which we can all feel proud. They are doing excellent work. Special reference was made to the work performed by the traffic men in this and other cities, particularly in the City of Dublin. I think that was a very well deserved tribute. Deputy Byrne mentioned having traffic men on duty for more extended periods.

Mr. Byrne

I mean extra men; not extended periods with the existing strength.

Mr. Morrissey

I know what the Deputy meant.

Mr. Byrne

I do not want a lengthening of their hours.

Mr. Morrissey

I am not disagreeing with the Deputy. The Deputy referred to the necessity for having traffic men in the newly built-up areas where secondary roads have become main roads, and also to assist children coming from school. I do not think we are yet approaching the time when we will be able to put traffic policemen at every point we would like to put them and I think some other scheme will have to be devised.

Mr. G. Boland

Has the Minister any information about the Salford scheme?

Mr. Morrissey

I have not.

Mr. Boland

It is worth looking into.

Mr. Morrissey

The suggestion put forward, and not for the first time in this House, by Deputy Cowan, that we are reaching the stage when we shall have a village constable in each area, instead of a Garda station with a sergeant and three or four Guards, may not meet with universal acceptance. I am satisfied that over a great part of rural Ireland, certainly that could be done, if our police force were doing nothing but police duties but we know as a matter of fact, that police duties represent infinitely the lesser amount of their work, because there is hardly a Department of State for which they are not also working.

I agree entirely with Deputy Boland that, I think, perhaps they can do it, because of their local knowledge and their standing with the public, more efficiently and certainly much more economically than inspectors recruited in any other way. When we talk about the village constable, remember, we may do that if we confine him entirely to police duties, but if we want him to collect statistics and attend to all the other matters which the Guards are doing at present I am afraid that the proposition would not be a feasible one.

Deputy Cowan used a phrase, and I do not think he meant it. The only reason I am referring to it is because, when talking about the force in the beginning, the phrase was that part of their duty was to spy on the people.

Captain Cowan

No.

Mr. Morrissey

I am raising it now.

Captain Cowan

Not the Gardaí.

Mr. Morrissey

You said the Gardaí.

Captain Cowan

The Royal Irish Constabulary.

Mr. Morrissey

The reason I mention it at all is that towards the conclusion of his speech, when advocating the village constable as against the present set-up, so to speak, he said let us have the village constable or one Guard instead of people spying on their neighbours. I doubt if he would wish to convey that that was his impression or his belief of what the duties of the Gardaí are.

Captain Cowan

The Official Report will indicate what I said, and that I had no such intention.

Mr. Morrissey

If I misunderstood the Deputy nobody will be better pleased than I will be, and nobody more ready to acknowledge it. I do want to add my voice to what has been already said, that they are an excellent force to whom we owe much. My reason for referring to what Deputy Cowan said is that one of the reasons why they have been so effective and so successful is because they were accepted from the beginning, right down through the years, by the people of this country as their friends.

Captain Cowan

Hear, hear!

Mr. Morrissey

They were there to see that the rights of the law-abiding citizen were protected.

Reference was made by Deputy Traynor to the question of a reduced force or rather not having enough to cover an ever-expanding. City of Dublin to give adequate patrol protection to the out-lying areas. I feel there is something in that. However, I feel it is a bit too soon for me to express definite opinions until I get a better grasp of the situation. I am just giving expression to impressions made on me in the ordinary way before I became Minister for Justice.

The Deputy also mentioned something about the campaign of burglaries there is. That, of course, is something that is not peculiar to Dublin or to this country. It is something that happens in every big city in every country in the world. That, of course, is no reason why we should not take the most effective steps that can be taken to reduce it to the smallest possible dimensions. I can only say, in conclusion, that the points which have been made by the Deputies will be noted. I hope that, when we get the report of this committee which has been inquiring into the whole question of the force over the last 12 months, it will enable us to improve the position, not merely from the point of view of the public, but from the point of view of the force and of the members of it.

Vote put and agreed to.