Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Mar 1951

Vol. 124 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Vote 48—Forestry.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Blowick)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £114,030 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1951, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry (No. 13 of 1946), including a Grant-in-Aid for Acquisition of Land.

This Supplementary Estimate has been rendered necessary, in the main, by increases in the wages of forestry labourers unforeseen when the original Estimate was framed; the purchase of heavy machinery for the mechanical preparation and drainage of bog and other lands in order to fit them for planting, and stockpiling of fencing materials, tools and building requisites.

At the beginning of this financial year the wages of forestry labourers ranged from 58/4 to 64/7 a week. Since that date various increases in wages have been granted and the rates now range from 62/- to 74/6 a week. It is, therefore, necessary to ask for an additional sum of £68,250.

A start has been made on the provision of heavy machinery by the purchase of 15 crawler tractors and fittings, and eight each of two types of ploughs specially designed for forestry work, one type to cut shallow drains and provide sods for mound planting and the other to cut deep contour drains. Five of the tractors and two of the ploughs have already been delivered and a sum of £18,615 is required to meet the payments which have become due. It is expected that the remaining tractors and ploughs will be received early in the next financial year.

In view of the supply position, forward purchases are being made of rabbit netting, barbed wire and other fencing materials and tools. A sum of £64,750 is required to meet payments for such materials already delivered or due for delivery before the end of this month. A sum of £5,185 is required for additional expenditure on normal purchases of tools and materials.

The lack of suitable housing accommodation for foresters at many of the State forests has caused serious difficulties. Some suitable houses which have come on the market during the year have been purchased and there has also been some advance purchasing of materials to be used in house construction during 1951-52. £7,080 is required under these heads.

Additional provision for travelling and subsistence allowances of the out door staff has become necessary as a result of increased travelling in connection with purchase of land. A sum of £1,750 is required.

As against these increases additional revenue from sales of timber is anticipated to the extent of £31,000, but this will be in part offset by a deficiency in other receipts of £6,460. There are savings usable to the total amount of £27,060. A net supplementary amount of £114,030 is required.

Mr. Moylan

I do not propose to indulge in any criticism of the forestry department to-day. I shall defer doing so until we get the main Estimate. I think it would not be quite fair to do so to-day. I have no objection to the payment of extra travelling allowances. I assume these were as the result of the survey that was made and of the visit by Mr. Cameron. I am glad that portion of the expenditure is being devoted to the purchase of tractors and ploughs. I suppose I may assume that this stock of mechanisation is for use on land which hitherto was not considered plantable. That is a forward move and I offer my approval of it. I understand the Minister to say that he is purchasing a number of new buildings for forestry workers. That is something which we can all approve of.

With regard to the amount to be spent on building, I was wondering whether the Minister intends to make any extension in connection with the school at Avondale. In view of new possibilities, it would seem to me that a big extension is needed there for the accommodation of the pupils. The most interesting thing to me is the question of the purchase of land. I am not going to question the Minister in regard to that to-day, though I hope that on the main Estimate he will be very clear as to the amount of plantable land acquired during the last few years and this year. One particular section of land purchase would be that devoted to nurseries and I should like the Minister to tell us, in view of the expanded programme, what he has done with regard to the provision of further nursery acreage; if he has acquired many acreas of land for nurseries; if he intends to open, or has opened, any new nurseries and, if so, where. As I say, I will discuss this matter on the main Estimate, but I should like the Minister to give us some information along these lines. I should also like him to tell us when Mr. Cameron's report will be available to the public.

Mr. Dunne

I should like to take the opportunity on this Estimate to refer to a matter which I have raised before but which has not yet been dealt with satisfactorily by the Minister or his Department, and that is the question of the wages of forestry workers. Last year it became the policy of the Minister and his Department, after a fairly lengthy period of agitation and pressure on the part of the trade union organising forestry labourers, to pay the county council rate to forestry labourers. That was a long overdue step. As we all know and as has been stated many times in this House, stated so often that it has become almost hackneyed, forestry workers have been performing a very essential national service; one which is not too easily discernible by the masses of the people but which, nevertheless, is very real. While they have been performing that service, the return which they have been receiving in the form of wages over a long number of years has been very poor. In order to try to remedy that to some small extent steps were taken to persuade the Minister and the forestry section to pay the county council rate and that was done in every county except the County Dublin. We have not very much forestry work in the County Dublin, although in the south county, particularly in the mountainous areas, there is ample opportunity for the extension of the forestry programme. If we have from 20 to 30 forestry labourers in County Dublin, that is as many as there are there. But, despite the fact that there is such a small number, the Minister saw fit to single them out from all the forestry workers in the country and refused to pay them the county council wages rate paid in the County Dublin. That is totally unjustified. No matter how the Minister may try to defend it, I do not think the Minister can justify that action so far as the forestry workers are concerned. It seems to be based on some Civil Service idea of economy. The County Dublin forestry workers, instead of having their wages based on the Dublin County Council wage rate have been based on the County Wicklow County Council rate. That does not apply to any other county. The reason for that step, apparently, is that the Wicklow rate for road workers and for forestry workers is lower than the rate being paid by the Dublin County Council to road workers by about 15/- per week. Therefore, in order to save the yearly cost of 20 men at 15/- per week, the very mean step was taken of refusing to pay the Dublin County Council rate for road workers.

I take advantage of this Supplementary Estimate to ask the Minister to remedy that obvious injustice and not to try to make a case for this step which was taken by the forestry section, as no case exists. The cost to the Exchequer of paying these men what they should be getting would be negligible and not worth talking about when dealing with Estimates which run into millions of pounds, but it is a very important matter for the men concerned. Fifteen shillings a week for forestry labourers means a great deal, and I ask the Minister to remedy this injustice. I hope that when he is introducing his main Estimate he will be able to announce a new rate of wages for forestry workers, not alone in Dublin, but throughout the rest of the country, because undoubtedly forestry workers are not being paid a living wage at present. They never have been paid a living wage, and the Minister could do himself a good turn by going down in history as the first Minister to afford to forestry workers some sort of a decent chance to live. They are not getting that at present. I ask the Minister when replying to deal with that matter on a fair basis and not to rely on the prejudiced attitude of some of the officials of his Department in relation to the forestry workers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister is responsible for the administration and the officials must be left out.

Mr. Blowick

This Supplementary Estimate was necessary in the main because of the increase in wages and for the purchase of machinery. Deputy Moylan asked me for what purpose the machinery was needed. It is needed to prepare land which was hitherto unplantable. That may mean some unplantable land which the forestry department may have accumulated over the years. The machinery will also allow us to avail of offers of land which we could not touch up to this and which it is most desirable to plant provided that the plantations will be a success. The machinery and the methods of soil preparation which the machinery will place at our disposal will ensure that success. A good deal of the unplantable land which we have on hands is barren mountain top. There are also big expanses of bog which could not be handled up to this because the plantations would be a failure. That is the purpose for which the machinery is necessary. Five machines have already been delivered and I hope that world conditions will not prevent us from getting the full number we have ordered.

Mr. Moylan

Ploughs and tractors?

Mr. Blowick

Yes.

Mr. Moylan

How many are on order?

Mr. Blowick

Fifteen, which ought to be sufficient for our needs for a year or two. After we have been using these for a time we will know whether we require more. I believe that we will require more, that the 15 will not be sufficient, because in many parts of the country there are vast expanses of unplantable ground which, if we had machinery to deal with it, would produce successful plantations. It was in connection with that that I visited the Scottish and English forests last year. I saw the type of machinery used there and the type of the work they were doing. They carried out some experiments both in England and Scotland which proved conclusively that land on which plantations were a failure when it was unprepared would, when it was prepared by this method of ploughing, produce young trees just as well as if they had been sown on good arable land.

We have bought some houses because the lack of foresters' houses has a hampering effect on the work of the Department, inasmuch as where foresters are married men they must be provided with housing accommodation. It is not easy to change them about. Because of the expanded programme it may in the future be necessary to take a man who has acquired a fair amount of experience in the Department and move him into an area that we intend to develop. If he happens to be a married man it might be very difficult to move him and it has happened in the past that we have not been able to take advantage of some of the best men in the Department for a particular job. Not alone do we intend to buy houses where they become available but we also intend to erect houses of our own in forestry areas.

Deputy Moylan asked for particulars of the nursery acreage. I have not got the details since it would be necessary to compile them in a tabular statement, but I can supply them if necessary.

Mr. Moylan

A rough idea will do.

Mr. Blowick

The nursery acreage has been increased from 280 acres to 700 acres and many new centres have been opened up. I am familiar with a few of them—one in Wicklow, two in Mayo and one fairly large one in Portumna on the Earl of Harewood estate. The best idea I can give the House is to say that the acreage has been increased to 700 acres. That is not quite sufficient for our needs and we shall need an extra 40, 50 or 60 acres to cope with our full programme, but the acquisition of that acreage will not present any difficulties.

Mr. Cameron's report will be made available as soon as possible. He was sent here by the Food and Agriculture Organisation to report on conditions here and, indeed, throughout the world. He made his report to his director. Courtesy copies were sent to us and as soon as printing can be undertaken, copies will be made available to the Deputies.

With regard to Avondale, the house there has now become unsuitable as a school for trainees. Double the number of trainees will be required in the future and we are immediately up against the problem of accommodation. Avondale happens to be the most suitable site since the best training facilities exist there. Hitherto we took in about 12 trainees each year and kept them for two years and the house there was generally carrying approximately 20 to 25 trainees. We have decided, therefore, to build a completely new structure in Avondale. It will accommodate 50 students and the old structure will be retained for other purposes. The building of the new structure will proceed as rapidly as possible.

Deputy Dunne raised the question of forestry workers' wages. He appears to take the attitude that forestry workers in Dublin have been victimised and that the Department holds some kind of grudge against them. That is not true. First of all, since this Government took office three years ago, forestry workers have received no less than three increases in pay. If I remember correctly, forestry workers were receiving something in the neighbourhood of 48/- per week when this Government took office. To-day the rates range from 62/- to 74/6. In Wicklow the rate is 74/6. There are a few forestry workers working actually inside the Dublin boundary, but they are really working in the County Wicklow forest, because an arm of the forest stretches across the county border. A very difficult situation would be created if men in one part of the forest were receiving a certain rate of pay while others a couple of yards away were receiving a different rate. It is common knowledge that the Dublin County Council, because of the high cost of living in regions bordering on the city, has given a specially high rate, a rate which no other county council pays. Paying a few forestry workers in County Dublin the Wicklow rate of 74/6 is not unreasonable taken by and large.

Mr. Dunne

It is very unfair.

Mr. Blowick

I do not think it is unfair. I think it would be more unfair to pay them a higher rate than their colleagues working a couple of yards away from them.

Mr. C. Lehane

Surely the Minister sees the solution. Would not the obvious solution be to pay them the County Dublin rate of wages?

Mr. Blowick

That would lead to confusion. I believe it would cause discontent and might lead to——

Mr. Dunne

Revolution.

Mr. Blowick

Not revolution, but discontent, with the possibility that men might refuse to work in one part of a forest as against another part. There is a certain amount of difference all over. You have adjoining county councils, such as Mayo and Galway, Cork and Waterford, Tipperary and Kilkenny; in all those you have a slightly different rate and in one forest it is possible that a lower rate of wages will be paid to the men than is paid to another group working a mile away in a different county.

Mr. Dunne

Is that not the position now?

Mr. Blowick

That is the position.

Mr. Dunne

Why not have it the same in Dublin?

Mr. Blowick

That is the position in Dublin. If and when forestry expands in County Dublin, I can see a case then, but I cannot see any case at the moment with the very small piece of forest that stretches into the county from County Wicklow.

Vote put and agreed to.