Deputy S. Collins has given notice to raise on the motion for the Adjournment the subject-matter of Question No. 66 on to-day's Order Paper.
Adjournment Debate—Recruitment for the Army.
In reply to my question to-day, the Minister for Defence indicated that, in fact, the initiation of a drive for recruits had not commenced, and that there was no recruiting direct for the First Line Reserve. He gave no specific indication of what the situation was in regard to the F.C.A. It strikes me that the time has come when I must discharge my duty as a public representative by showing to the country the blatant and patent insincerity of the three years' barrage directed by Deputy Traynor, as he was then, and Deputy Vivion de Valera, against the late Government on the issue of war scares and Army lack of personnel scares. It is on that basis that I raise this question this evening. It is time that that patent dishonesty, that cheap political trickery and that lack of national spirit was laid bare before the country.
The Minister for Defence admitted to-day that he has, in fact, a lesser Army than when the late Government was in office, and that he has done nothing at all about commencing this recruiting drive. But, only some few months ago, when Deputy Traynor was on this side of the House, he and Deputy Vivion de Valera caterwauled, growled and moaned. They bemoaned the fact that the late Government was standing by and was allowing an impending doom and menace to creep in. They described that as profligate carelessness in regard to defence matters. The fact is that the situation was never as they painted it, and the Minister, now back in office, knows that. He knows that there was no justification, save for cheap political codology, for the attitude which they adopted here. The records of this House show that, in a period of three years, Deputy Traynor, as he then was, and Deputy Vivion de Valera, asked close on 500 questions about the Army and Army personnel, questions which were couched in every possible form to try and induce the people of this country into the belief that they were in peril, and that their peril was being greatly increased by the lack of interest of the then Government. I, in this House, deliberately charge the present Minister with making a plaything of national security for political purposes. That is my deliberate purpose in raising this question on the Adjournment.
I firmly believe that the Army is as good as ever it was, and that if any issue arose in this country we would see the same spirit and tradition which activated the country before, manifesting themselves again. Men will always be found to answer that call. I think it was a shameful and a degrading thing, a patently dishonest thing, for the late Opposition to play a war peril for political purposes. It is true that there are many things in relation to the Defence Forces which are not discussed in this House or aired in public. My reason for raising this question is to give the Minister a chance of explaining to us now when was this sudden peril dissolved, and when was the panic, which he and Deputy Vivion de Valera created in this House, dissipated. Is it by reason of the fact that he has now become Minister for Defence and has a smaller Army than we had before, or is it due to the fact that he is now shouldering the responsibilities of State office and has to take back on himself responsibility which, as an ex-Minister, he should never have so lightly cast aside?
He now has to come into this House and has to admit frankly that there was no cause for alarm, and that he is only preparing his plans for a recruiting drive. I wish that recruiting drive every possible success if there is any help that I can give to the Minister in that drive—I offered it in this House before—I am prepared to give it. I am prepared to place any service that I can give at his disposal to encourage recruiting for the Army. I do think, however, that the time has come to hand out in all its clear nakedness the deliberate chicanery and the cheap political trickery of a Party which sought to feed on alarm and gloom, and on the impending peril of the nation which we handed back to them in a better shape than they gave it to us.
Mr. O'Higgins
When the Minister gave his answer to-day to the question put down by Deputy Collins, I asked him whether he could give the House and the country his reasons for delaying the recruiting drive that he had mentioned while he was in opposition. To that question, no answer was given. I want to join with Deputy Collins in making as vigorous a protest as I possibly can with regard to this important matter. During the three and a half years when the Fianna Fáil Party were in opposition the present Minister for Defence—I see Deputy Colley sitting behind him—and Deputy Vivion de Valera, as well as the present Taoiseach and other leaders of the Fianna Fáil Party, joined in a wild caterwaul throughout the country concerning the strength of our Defence Forces. Every weakness that the Army had was disclosed and laid bare in this House. No single effort was spared in the attempt to damage the defence resources of the country, or the political position of the inter-Party Government.
We were told time and time again by Deputy Traynor, who is an artist in creating an air of gloom, that there was war just around the corner. That was done for three and a half years. We were told that war was about to be visited on this country. They were pressing all the time for an increase in the Defence Forces. We find to-day, six months after Deputy Traynor has again become, temporarily, Minister for Defence, that the country has available to it a smaller Army than it had in June last when he again assumed office. I think that is something of considerable importance, because it shows that the present Minister for Defence, and the present Government, in relation to their defence policy, have been completely devoid of any honesty whatever. Their entire propaganda while in opposition was propaganda that was indulged in for purely political purposes and with no sincerity behind it, good, bad or indifferent.
If they sincerely believed that the international situation was such that this country required not 7,500 or 8,000 men but 12,000 men, and if the odd few thousand were going to make any difference, then certainly it was their bounden duty, as their first act as the Government, to ensure that the necessary 3,500 men were immediately recruited. Instead, we find to-day that our Army is smaller than it was when the present Minister assumed office and that no plans have been made in the last six months to recruit or build up the strength of the Defence Forces.
I think that shows a very blameworthy lack of policy on the part of the present Minister. It shows also that the entire campaign that he and his colleagues indulged in for three and a half years was a campaign devoid of any sincerity. It shows that while in opposition the present Minister was content to make political capital out of things that he did not believe in and to indulge in a line of campaign which was designed merely for political purposes. I think that very shortly we will have an opportunity under a competent Minister and a competent Administration to build up the Defence Forces again and I hope that when that is done some proper plan will be followed and some effort made to build up our Defence Forces here in accordance with national requirements. The example we have seen here of a Minister who, not believing in the slightest in his previous campaign and previous pledges, allowed the Army available to him to diminish, has shown clearly that under his administration the country cannot be properly defended.
I objected during the last Government's term of office to questions being asked in this House about the Army and our Army supplies. I equally object to any party or parties asking questions of this Government about our Defence Forces in this country. That is a matter that should be dealt with by representatives of the different Parties rather than by the Government so as to prevent the world outside from knowing where we stand as far as our Defence Forces are concerned. That is the reason why I object now. I raised an objection equally strongly when Deputy de Valera said to the previous Government: "We are going to call your bluff." My answer now is that we have too much bluff altogether and if there is anything to be done, we should discuss it between representatives of each Party and not tell the world outside whether we are strong or weak.
I wish to associate myself with this question on the Adjournment because I feel that during the three and a quarter years that the last Government was in office, the Minister, accompanied by Deputy Major de Valera principally and his whole Party machine, used the situation as it then was for political purposes to go up and down the country making the charge. and repeating it in this House, that the last Government had been neglectful in the matter of looking after the interests of our national Army.
I feel that the question put here this afternoon to the Minister gave him an opportunity of dealing with it in a fair manner and requesting from this side of the House co-operation—which he would certainly have got—in embarking upon a recruiting drive in the same manner as he asked for it during the emergency years and which he got to a great extent from the Opposition. I believe he has done immeasurable harm to that recruiting drive by the manner in which he and his colleagues used the national Army during the last three years for political purposes by raising a scare that we were on the brink of a terrible crisis and that the Government then in office was neither capable nor had they the desire to take the necessary steps to cope with the situation.
The question was raised with the intention of inquiring what was done since the Minister came into office to increase the personnel of the Army, and if nothing had been done what was intended, and to give him an opportunity of making that appeal to this side of the House for the co-operation which he would have received. The reply given to-day was very casual and it showed that, far from an increase being effected on his return to the Department of Defence, in effect no improvement has been made. The Army is now smaller. Clearly this shows that the continual barrage by him and his associate Deputies over the three and a quarter years that they were in opposition was nothing but pure political trickery on their part.
It is not our intention to engage in those tactics but we avail of this opportunity to bring the Minister and the Government to a realisation that it is in the interests of the country to build up and maintain an Army commensurate with our national aspirations and that this concern is not the monopoly of any one party, of any Taoiseach or any particular Minister for Defence.
We gave, when it was asked, the co-operation we would be willing to give again but which the present Government did not give when they were on this side of the House. They impeded the very effective and good work which the Ministers for Defence under the inter-Party Government did during that time.
In relation to the Second Line Reserve, I believe that it did a lot of good work and that that is reflected already in that Force. If this Government embarks upon a recruiting drive for any section whatever of our national Army, then it will meet with the unanimous co-operation of all on this side of the House.
The rather loud voiced and windy harangue that I was compelled to listen to from Deputy Collins only goes to emphasise his complete irresponsibility as well as his inexperience to discuss a subject of this particular importance. He has clearly shown that the subject which he has endeavoured to discuss is as foreign to him as good manners are. I doubt if he would even know the number of recruits for which we are looking. I doubt if he could tell us where they could be got or when would be the best time to secure them.
Mr. O'Higgins
He was a soldier in the National Army. You never were.
His only object in raising this matter on the Adjournment was not to help me to secure recruits but to penalise me as, no doubt, he thinks he is doing; but far from doing that he has provided me with an opportunity of making clear what the present position is. Deputy O'Higgins started off by saying that no answer was given to the question which was put down.
Mr. O'Higgins
I did not say that. I said that I asked the Minister in a Supplementary Question the reasons why he was postponing his recruiting drive until January, and that to such question no answer was given.
The official records will show what was said.
The Minister is entitled to reply without interruption.
The Minister interrupted me many times when I was speaking.
Order! The Minister is entitled to speak, without interruption, for the ten minutes available to him. I assume that the question was put down for the purpose of getting information, and I am sure that for such reason it was raised on the Adjournment.
I have taken this extract from to-day's official records. Deputy O'Higgins asked a Supplementary Question as follows:—
"Will the Minister say why, in view of the serious international situation, which was pointed out by the Minister, as a Deputy, some six months ago, recruiting has not yet commenced?"
My reply was:—
"Because we are approaching this whole difficult subject in a sensible manner."
A sensible approach to a subject of this particular kind cannot be dealt with in two, three or six months. It might even take a longer period. The position is this. When I had been less than one week in office in the Department of Defence I placed a memorandum before that Department for their consideration. This memorandum contained a number of new approaches to this question of recruitment which, up to the present, had been anything but a success. These new approaches required examination, and the civil side of the Department examined these questions carefully and gave answers to them. I received replies and examined them, and all this took a considerable period of time. The military authorities had to examine these questions also.
It is surely not going to be suggested that either the civil side of the Department or the military side deliberately attempted to sabotage the scheme for a recruiting campaign. Nobody is going to suggest that, I hope. Any Deputy with ordinary common-sense or with experience of the workings of this House would realise that the Department from which these replies originated, cannot authorise these particular schemes if financial commitments are involved.
Mr. O'Higgins
There is no difficulty about that.
These have to go to another Department for examination. That takes further time, and I am not going to be driven by Deputy Collins or by anybody else, when I feel satisfied that we are in a position to approach the recruiting campaign in a manner that will prove successful, and in a way that will ensure that it will not be the failure which it has formerly proved to be. When I introduce that campaign I hope that the Deputies opposite will give me the support that such a campaign will deserve.
Mr. O'Higgins
You got support before, and you will get it again any time you need it.
Another question was raised in this House inquiring into the strength of the Army on a given date in June last and on a given date in October, and the reply clearly showed that there was a reduction of 107 in four months. This was not a very great reduction, but a reduction nevertheless. As Deputy Vivion de Valera was pointing out to the then Minister for Defence, this falling off in the strength of the Army was continuing from month to month. Anybody with any intelligence knows that that state of affairs could not go on for ever. We all realise that in a very short time we would have an Army composed of officers with no rank and file.
Mr. O'Higgins
You could have stopped it.
Deputy Major de Valera attacked the Government which was in office for over three years on their policy of no recruitment for the Army.
Mr. O'Higgins
Do not talk nonsense.
They stopped the recruiting campaign which was in operation, so that the only people who entered the Army were those who joined in the normal way; there is a continuous normal recruiting influx all the time. It represents about 1,000 men approximately, but for every 1,000 men joining the Army 1,107, or thereabouts, are leaving it every year. As I said before, anyone with common sense realises that that state of affairs cannot go on for ever. That is what we had been trying to point out to the former Government, but without success, because they could not see common sense even for their own political ends. As far as I am concerned, I will go ahead with the recruiting campaign when I get the authority.
Mr. O'Higgins
Has the Minister not got that yet?
Is it not an extraordinary state of affairs that I should discover, in the course of my examination of this situation, that if the recruiting campaign was launched as quickly as the Deputies insisted there would not be sufficient uniforms to have met the influx of recruits?
Mr. O'Higgins
Would the Minister agree to order some in Tullamore? We have plenty of cloth in the country.
Yes, we have plenty of cloth in the country, but soldiers do not go about in cloth but in uniforms, and if the Deputy will persist in showing his inexperience by trying to suggest that cloth will meet the difficulties, all I can say is that he is very innocent. The cloth has to be made into suits and the suits graded into various sizes so that they will fit each soldier perfectly. All that takes time.
The difficulty has gone now.
That is not the reason why this recruiting campaign has not gone ahead immediately. I have already given those reasons, and I am now drawing attention to the state of unpreparedness in which the Opposition left the Army and, indeed, the country generally. They left the present Government to deal with the situation.
What about the Second Line Reserve? Has the Minister any observations to make about it?