Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Nov 1951

Vol. 127 No. 4

Adjournment Debate. - Appointment of Adviser to the Minister for Social Welfare.

Mr. O'Higgins

On last Thursday I asked the Minister for Social Welfare the following question:—

"To ask the Minister for Social Welfare if he will state, in regard to the position of Adviser to the Minister for Social Welfare, the reasons for the establishment of the position."

I did so because I regard the establishment of this new post as such an extreme departure from the accepted Civil Service position that it was a matter which should be inquired into in this House.

There has unfortunately been a background to this position which has caused considerable uneasiness throughout the country. Had I received from the Minister a satisfactory answer as to the reasons which prompted him and the Government to establish this position and make this appointment, I would not have regarded it as necessary to raise the matter on the Adjournment. The Minister replied to my question:—

"I considered it desirable to have such an adviser on the staff of my Department."

I pressed him further as to why, in view of the fact that for over 28 years his Department had consisted of a principal officer, who was the secretary, a staff of civil servants and the usual machinery of a Department, this new post should have been created and the Minister said:—

"I have given the reason. I do not know what the Deputy wants more than that. I considered that an adviser for a certain part of the work of the Department was necessary, if a suitable person could be got, and I consider that I got such a suitable person."

I regard the Minister's attitude in relation to this question as being characterised by evasiveness and I regard the establishment of this post as being completely unjustified, so far at any rate as the Minister is concerned. It is a serious matter in relation to the proper regulation and discipline of the Civil Service that any upheaval should take place in the matter of the grading, the functions or the duties of different officers. It also is a matter of considerable concern in this country, to the people who have to foot the bill, that a person should be appointed to a post in which he receives a yearly salary of £1,880 and it is a serious matter that such a post should have been established for the first time in 1951. It is further, a serious matter that that post has been created merely to pay a reward to a particular person against a background the history of which we all know. I do not think that anyone on this side would take any exception to the establishment of any post in the Civil Service, provided we were satisfied that the person appointed——

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot deal with any appointment. There is not a word in the question about the person appointed.

Mr. O'Higgins

I am not dealing with anybody appointed.

An Ceann Comhairle

The only thing the question asks is the reason why the Minister made the appointment. That is the only matter we can deal with. No appointee or person appointed to the position can be discussed.

Mr. O'Higgins

I am not making any reference to the appointee. I am saying nobody on this side would take any exception to the establishment of a post, irrespective of the salary paid or what remuneration might be obtained, or who might be appointed. provided we were satisfied that the post was being filled by a person who was discharging some new service or giving some assistance not previously available to the Department. In regard to this particular matter, the fact is that, under the Ministers and Secretaries Act, 1924, the different Departments were established and they consisted of a principal officer who was, and is, the secretary of the Department, with, under him, various other officials and grades. Never before in the history of this State, and, I am certain, never before in the history of any country with a civil service similar to our own, has it been found necessary to establish the position of adviser to the political head of a Department, in this case the Minister for Social Welfare. It is such a grave depárture from the accepted procedure of the Civil Service that I should have expected the Minister concerned would have given to this House, consisting of the representatives of the people, a satisfactory explanation as to why this new post was created.

I want to refer the Minister to some of the matters which I think are worthy of comment in this regard. It appears from the answer given by the Tánaiste. acting for the Taoiseach, on the previous day that this post was established under the provisions of the Civil Service (Regulation) Act of 1926, Section 6 of which amended Section 2 of the earlier Act. Under the Civil Service (Regulation) Act, 1924, as amended by the Act of 1926, it is important for the House to appreciate, the Civil Service Commissioners were established. They were established 26 years ago to ensure that never in this State would the Civil Service machinery be corrupted purely by political considerations. The commissioners were established as a bulwark between the political head of each Department and the Civil Service machinery functioning below him.

There was a particular exception made in relation to the functions of the commissioners by the Act of 1926, under which the Government could, for very special reasons, where it appeared in the public interest that a particular person should be appointed without being qualified by the Civil Service Commissioners to a particular post, make such appointment. In the matter of this post of adviser, the Government have taken the unprecedented course of availing of that exception under the Act of 1926 in the public interest to establish this post and make this appointment. By doing so, they have swept aside the protection given to the Civil Service by the Civil Service Commissioners. They have ensured for the first time that an element of politics creeps into our Civil Service. They have established in this Department two principal officers having the same grade in the Civil Service, according to the reply of the Tánaiste, with the same salary and with the same superannuation benefits.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not wish to rule too rigidly on the Deputy, but is he not departing from the terms of the question? The sole question is why the Minister made such an appointment. The terms of the question are the only guide I can have as to what the Deputy intends to talk about. The question put to the Minister for Social Welfare was:—

"to state in regard to the position of adviser to the Minister for Social Welfare the reasons for the establishment of the position."

The method he adopted, if he did adopt an irregular method, does not arise.

Mr. O'Higgins

I will certainly abide by your ruling and I do not want to depart in any particular from the question I put, but I as a Deputy of the people of the country find now, in relation to the Department of Social Welfare, that there is paid by the people a principal officer who is the Secretary of that Department, who is, under the Ministers and Secretaries Act, the head of the Department; and there is also, by reason of this new appointment, an established post carrying the maximum of the salary applicable generally to Secretaries of Government Departments.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy relate all that to the reason?

Mr. O'Higgins

Yes. I am trying to ascertain from the Minister—and I hope the Minister, in reply, will deal with it—why it has been found necessary—it follows from the making of this appointment—to have in the Department two officers who are of principal officer grade, both paid the maximum salary applicable to the permanent head of the Department and both functioning under the one political head. That is a problem which arises immediately from the creation of this particular post. I want to know further from the Minister what his view is with regard to the effect of this appointment on the Civil Service generally and in particular on the members of the Department of Social Welfare. There is a high code of discipline, a high code of honour in the Irish Civil Service——

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy again, but surely the only thing that can guide me is the terms of his own question.

Mr. O'Higgins

Yes, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's own question asks in regard to this position of adviser "the reasons for the establishment of the position". The code of honour of the Civil Service and the method of appointment may arise on another occasion, but not on this question. The Deputy limited himself in the terms of his question.

Mr. O'Higgins

With respect, I am saying—and I think it is in order—that I am entitled to point out to the House the certain consequences which follow from the establishment of this position.

An Ceann Comhairle

No. The Deputy is entitled to find out the reasons why the Minister made the appointment.

Mr. MacBride

May I respectfully submit that on the terms of the question it would surely be open to the Deputy to suggest that the Minister had an ulterior political motive as his reason.

Minister for Social Welfare (Dr. Ryan)

That is not an uncommon suggestion from the Deputy.

Mr. O'Higgins

That is a course I did not want to follow. I am prepared to advance what I believe to be the reasons for the establishment of this position. I was prepared to point out to the Minister and the House the consequences which I see following from this appointment. The Minister has not given me, so far, and has not given the House, the reasons for the appointment. I am prepared to deal extensively with the background which led up to it.

I do not want to do that. This is not, perhaps, the place to do it. It is impossible for the House to close its eyes to the matters which led up to the appointment of the present Secretary of the Department, to the discharge of the former secretary and, as a result of a change of Government, to the establishment of this new position of adviser to the present Minister and the consequential appointment of the former secretary.

If the Minister had told the House the reasons, this matter would not have arisen. What he did say was that he considered it useful in relation to pending legislation to have this post established. I want to describe that as nonsense—sheer, unadulterated nonsense. Furthermore, I regard the Minister's attitude in relation to this as being evasive in the extreme. He says he wanted an adviser in relation to pending legislation. Before this appointment was made, he had the advice and assistance of the entire Civil Service machinery that had been there for many years before. I do not believe that the securing of advice in relation to pending legislation was the reason for the establishment of this post. I believe there is another reason and I think the House is entitled to know the correct reason. The House and the country generally must regard the establishment of this post as a sorry and sordid business—sorry and sordid because, for no reason whatsoever, the Minister has established a top Civil Service post, paying the top Civil Service salary, to fulfil a function previously being discharged in a very efficient manner by a qualified staff of civil servants; a sorry business also, because for the first time an element of politics has been introduced into our Civil Service; and a sorry business because, for the first time ever, a purely temporary post has been established in our Civil Service. I can promise the Minister that, in the next six months, when his successor is sitting where he is sitting, this particular post will no longer exist.

Dr. Ryan

I am sorry I did not get notice of this question and so I have no papers with me, but I think I am able to answer any question raised. The Deputy says there was never such a post created before. There was. In 1933, when I was Minister for Agriculture, I established the post of advise to the Minister for Agriculture, although that Department had been in operation for 11 years. At that time, we had perhaps a more reasonable House here and no fault was found with the appointment. As a matter of fact the person appointed to that particular position of adviser to the Minister for Agriculture afterwards became secretary of the Department and served the Department well so that so far as a precedent is concerned there is a precedent and that precedent was established by me. The Department has been in existence for four years and the appointment of adviser has been made now.

I do not agree with the Deputy that that appointment was in order to reward the particular person because the person the Deputy has in mind could have found employment in some other Department if I were willing to release him to any other Department. Rather, I should say, I considered that that particular person would be a most important and very necessary acquisition to my Department and for that reason he was appointed to this particular post.

At the same time I would not like any Deputy here to think that I would cast any reflection on the higher officers of the Department of Social Welfare's hierarchy, if I might call it so. They compare favourably with any other Department here or elsewhere. I might say that I was the person responsible for gathering the men who took charge of that Department in 1947 and I certainly have no cause to regret the appointment of any person as a higher officer in that Department. They have done their work very well. It would not be within the rules of order, I take it, to discuss why this particular person was appointed in the Civil Service.

An Ceann Comhairle

No.

Dr. Ryan

That can be done at another time if the Deputy likes to put down a question but as far as the question of why the post was made is concerned, I made him, not an evasive-answer, but an answer in accordance with the facts. I told him that I considered the creation of that post essential and that I considered the person appointed to it a suitable person to fill the post. I do not think I can add to or subtract from that. I regard it as a complete answer to the question the Deputy put on Thursday.

One other point. He wants to know what effect this appointment will have on the Civil Service generally. I can only say that I believe personally that the effect on the Civil Service generally is that they can be assured that as far as this Government is concerned, justice will be done.