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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Dec 1951

Vol. 128 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Pharmacy Bill, 1951—Committee and Final Stages.

SECTION 1.

I move the amendment standing in my name:—

In line 19, after "Act" to add "and approved by the Minister".

I was not clear as to the position under the principal Act, which is the Act of 1875, as to who, in fact, takes over the position of the Lord Lieutenant. I was not clear whether the Minister took over that position, so I put down the amendment for the purpose of having that point clarified by the addition of the words suggested, which would make it subject to the approval of the Minister. I am sure the Minister has looked up that point and will be able to satisfy me and the House as to who takes the place of the Lord Lieutenant so far as the Pharmaceutical Society is concerned.

Under the adaptation of Orders made in 1926, the powers of the Lord Lieutenant in this respect were transferred to the Minister for Justice and, as far as the Pharmaceutical Society is concerned, to the Minister for Health, so that the Minister for Health is the successor of the Lord Lieutenant in this respect.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 1 agreed to.
Sections 2 to 5 inclusive agreed to.
SECTION 6.
Question proposed: "That Section 6 stand part of the Bill."

I wish to oppose very strongly this section.

On a point of order, would the Deputy excuse me for a moment? Under what Standing Order of this House does an amendment appear on the Order Paper as "Section opposed"? What I am asking is a procedural point.

It is not an amendment in reality at all. It is just an indication.

The Chair has not infrequently ruled where an amendment operates to cancel a section that the correct procedure is not to put down an amendment but to oppose the section. How does it arise on the Order Paper that an amendment appears as "section opposed"?

I do not know how it originated. It is not in reality an amendment, but it is an indication that the Deputy intends to oppose the section.

Is it open to any Deputy to indicate that he intends to oppose a section?

It has been a kind of a tradition.

I never saw it before.

Amendments are invariably numbered. In this case, there is no amendment appearing against the notice on the Order Paper.

I understand, a Chinn Chomhairle, that this was the correct thing to do.

The Deputy understands there is no necessity to do it.

It is an indication to the Minister in charge of the Bill that this particular section will be opposed. I think it is proper that it should be opposed and that is why I put it down. In fact, I want to oppose this section very strongly. I think it a very serious matter and one which must give rise to a considerable amount of alarm as to what exactly is going to happen if it is passed. I gather that there are really three Acts dealing with pharmaceutical chemists, druggists and the people covered by this Bill. The original Act was the Act of 1791 which was passed by the old Irish Parliament, then the Act of 1875, which is the principal Act, and the amending Act of 1890. Under the Act of 1890, there was a provision, very clearly set out in the Statute Book, that a person who had completed a period of four years' apprenticeship, satisfied the examiners by passing an examination, made an application to the register for enrolment, paid a fee of two guineas and made certain statutory declarations, would be entitled to be registered, and that the council could not refuse to register him. I think that was a very important protection for the student. I am referring to Section 8 of the 1890 Act. Under Section 10 of the same Act, so long as he completed his apprenticeship, applied for registration and passed an examination, he was registered, and the society could not prevent him being registered. What was done in the Bill under discussion at present? Sections 8 and 10 were abolished and nothing was put in their place.

My concern for this started when I heard Deputy Brady saying the other evening here that the council intended to alter the provision whereby, after spending four years' apprenticeship and passing an examination, a person would be a qualified chemist. Deputy Brady said that the council are to introduce a new provision whereby a person has to give three years' apprenticeship and then to spend one year in some type of school or college where he would have to study, hear lectures and note them down. During that period, no provision is made by anybody for his maintenance.

I look at it from the point of view of the student from a rural area who wants to serve his apprenticeship to become qualified and who is faced, or his parents are faced, with the additional expenditure, or they may be. If we take out these two sections and deprive the students of their rights, I do not see what is to prevent the council saying that he will have to do two years or maybe three or four years in a school. I would like to hear the Minister saying what protection there is under the law as it stands if we eliminate these two sections which give such important rights to those apprentices.

I can understand the council deciding to make some change, but if they made the change then I think they should have written that change into the Act so that each and every one of us would know where we stood. We would know what we were inserting for the important provisions that we were taking out. For these reasons, which I am putting in very brief form at the moment, I oppose very strenuously the removal of those two very important sections of the Act of 1890.

I do not know if the Deputy is arguing exactly on those sections as they stand in the principal Act. The kernel of the whole Bill is this: it is to discontinue the class of druggists. Section 8 of the 1890 Act laid down the condition under which a druggist could qualify in regard to apprenticeship. He does his four years and then passes an examination and becomes a registered druggist. That is the law as it stands under Section 8 of the 1890 Act. What we are trying to do now is to say that will only apply to those who have started their apprenticeship, and for the future no person can start as an apprentice to a registered druggist. The object of this Bill is, in time, to do away with druggists and to have all those who are dealing with medicines and poisons in the pharmaceutical class. If we are to proceed with this Bill that would be absolutely necessary.

Section 10 of the principal Act gives a person an alternative way of becoming a pharmaceutical chemist, if he does four years as an apprentice to a druggist and then does two years with a pharmaceutical chemist, after which he can take an examination. The effect of this section is to see that no person can be taken as an apprentice in future by a druggist. A person who wants to go into the business as a pharmaceutical chemist in future will have to enter as assistant to a pharmaceutical chemist, not a druggist.

May I ask the Minister, is it not the present position that the Pharmaceutical Chemists' Organisation can lay down conditions for the education and examination of candidates for admission subject to the Minister's approval as to their reasonableness?

That is right.

And that thereafter any young person who can conform to those conditions and pass the examination is entitled to require the Pharmaceutical Chemists' Organisation to register him as a pharmaceutical chemist?

That is right.

Does the deletion of the two sections of the old Act referred to remove that obligation on the Pharmaceutical Chemists' Organisation to register the young person who has complied with the approved, requirements? Does it create a new situation in which discretion remains with the Pharmaceutical Chemists' Organisation to register him or not when he has passed? Is there any ground for the apprehension that if these two old sections are repealed a situation may arise in which the Pharmaceutical Chemists' Organisation might say here after: "There are enough pharmaceutical chemists to do all the business that requires to be done and we do not propose to admit any pharmaceutical chemist for a period of five years"? That is what I would apprehend.

I am quite prepared to accept the proposition that the characteristics of druggists and pharmaceutical chemists should be merged now in one approved course of education and examination. But I would be very reluctant indeed to agree that we should confer upon the Pharmaceutical Chemists' Organisation the right in their own discretion to register or not to register a young person who had conformed to the standard requirements as approved by the Minister.

Neither this section nor the Bill makes any difference whatever in the powers of the Pharmaceutical Society with regard to the registration of apprentices or qualifying apprentices as pharmaceutical chemists. The effect of this section is to discontinue the alternative way in which a person could become a pharmaceutical chemist. Up to this he could start with a druggist and change over to a pharmaceutical chemist and do his apprenticeship in that way. Under Section 10 he cannot do that in future. Anybody who is there at present can pursue that course. The removal of Section 8 means that no apprentices can do that in future.

Can the Minister reassure us that in accepting that change hereafter he will be obliged to review regulations made by the Pharmaceutical Society as to education and examination and that once they are approved any citizen who goes through the course and meets the academic requirements of the examination approved by the Minister for the time being, will have a right to demand registration as a pharmaceutical chemist from the Pharmaceutical Society?

There is no change whatever in that.

I should like to clear up a few points in connection with Deputy Dillon's remarks. All regulations made by the Pharmaceutical Society must be approved by the Minister. That was the position and that position remains. As regards this section which Deputy Cowan is worrying about, the position has not altered at all except that under this Bill, as we said last week, apprentices coming into the business will be registered as pharmaceutical apprentices. After the appointed day there will be no more registered apprentices to qualify for the druggists' examination, but apprentices who are serving their time at the present time before the appointed day, can go for qualifications as registered druggists. The Pharmaceutical Society must, and will, hold an examination for these people but after the appointed day, the difference is that there will be apprentices for the qualification of pharmaceutical chemist only.

What has been said removes a considerable amount of the worry I had. As I said, that worry was caused by the reference made by Deputy Brady to the fact that there was to be an alteration in the terms of study and that, instead of a period of four years of apprenticeship, there is going to be a final year of study in some school or college. That was the part that was worrying me. I gather that has not yet been approved by the Minister.

Perhaps no harm has been done in drawing attention to the fact at this stage so that the Minister will have those matters in mind, if such a new scheme is submitted to him. If it has been agreed between the two parties concerned with this Bill that the elimination or removal of these two particular sections is not going to affect study in future, then I am perfectly satisfied. I am certainly satisfied with the assurance the Minister has already given and with having had an opportunity of drawing the Minister's attention to the objection, that there may be an alteration in the educational programme of the Pharmaceutical Society which might involve parents in substantial additional expense.

May we assume that the Minister's view, broadly, is that reasonable standards of education and examination shall be maintained and that anybody satisfying them will have the right to be registered as a pharmaceutical chemist? I am primarily concerned to ensure that the objectionable principle of an artificial delimitation of the number of persons entering the pharmaceutical profession will not be brought in by any side-wind, or by a standard of examination which is unattainable by the average student or by setting some other test as an indispensable prerequisite to registration, so as effectively to prevent new entrants being admitted.

On a point of explanation, I want to make it perfectly clear that it never did occur to the Pharmaceutical Society that there should be anything competitive as regards entrance to, or qualifications in, pharmacy.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 7, 8 and the Title agreed to.
Agreed to take the remaining stages now.
Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.
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