Deputy Dunne has given notice that, on the motion for the Adjournment, he wishes to raise the question of the purchase of Tulyar by the National Stud.
Committee on Finance - Adjournment Debate—Purchase of Racehorse.
Deputies who told meI should be disposed to regard this matter in some other light will find a somewhat different attitude among their constituents. This question concerns the proposed expenditure, so far as we have been told, of £250,000 of public money. At the outset, in order to anticipate any misrepresentation which people may attempt to create, it it as well for me to make it clear that I have no opposition whatever to the promotion of the interests of the Irish bloodstock industry. However, I think I am speaking the minds of the majority of the people when I say that they are seriously concerned at this expenditure. £250,000 is not chicken feed in anybody's vocabulary, not even that of the gentleman about to receive that sum.
I was interested to read in the journal published by the Government some details concerning this animal. I do not profess to know anything about Irish bloodstock or bloodstock of any kind.
Oh, now ½
I do think that I have the right—and I propose to exercise it very fully here—to question this expenditure. What do we read in the Irish Pressof February the 6th in regard to this animal? It says:—
"He has a reputation for laziness. A lounger during exercise at home, his chief interests in life are eating and sleeping. He has been known to doze off while being groomed, and glances around for something to lean against when taken out of his box."
Like a Dáil Deputy, at times.
I will accept it from that authority that these are the particular virtues, these are the qualities which are attributed to this animal, which I believe we have purchased from the Aga Khan. I would like to know some facts about it and I want to get some information. I would like to know if there was a Government decision to purchase this animal. This matter of £250,000 is a very considerablesum—was it the subject of a Government decision? I have not seen any reference in any Government Estimate to the expenditure or expected expenditure of this amount. I would like to know on what basis this horse was valued and by whom it was valued. I am told by people who are regarded in this country as experts in the bloodstock industry, that we will not be in a position to say whether this animal will be of any good to this country or not until 1957, when the first group of two-year-olds will be racing, and that it cannot be before then.
I am told also by these same experts that, unless this horse is run as a four-years-old in certain races in England, none of its progeny will qualify for competition in the major classics in England when the time comes. These are important things. A lot of propaganda has been put out that something great was being done for the country by the purchase, that our prestige was being boosted—but the facts do not seem to tally with that.
How much would the Deputy pay for him?
If I were in Deputy Cowan's profession, perhaps I would be able to pay almost as much as the Government proposes to pay, but not being in that happy position I will refrain from answering the question. I would like to know whether or not there is an undisclosed agreement covering the vendor's retained nominations. This is the interesting point. We are told we got a great bargain in this animal; we are told that we were lucky in defeating the Americans, that they might have got this Tulyar. But what is the position? We are paying to the owner, a man who struggles to live, as we know, and who has an international reputation of struggling to live, while being weighed in gold and jewels——
What the gentleman who owned the horse does or does not do cannot be relevant to this matter.
I am mentioning that merely as a background to this question,to illustrate to those who may not be aware of it that we are giving £250,000 to the richest man in the world.
For the best horse in the world.
The Minister knows all about that, I am sure. We have had much talk of foolish spending from the Minister who has now intervened, who very recently was talking about all sorts of foolish spending by the previous Government and who is trying to bolster up his case to reduce this country to a condition of austerity.
The Deputy should ride one horse at a time.
When we had these references, Sir, I wanted to mention that apparently no thought at all was taken of the fact that this proposition is no more than a gamble. It is no more than a reckless gamble. We have no guarantee whatever that it will pay off, either for the bloodstock industry or for the nation as a whole. On the other hand, we do know, and we have no doubt about it, that we have 87,000 unemployed and we are told by the Government that they cannot find the money to relieve that unemployment. I know that in the town of Balbriggan, in my constituency, we have a record number of unemployed, and the same applies in every part of the country.
We cannot travel over Government policy on unemployment, housing and agriculture on this matter. We must simply confine ourselves to the expenditure of £250,000 on the purchase of a horse.
It often struck me that certainly the Fianna Fáil Government should be thankful for the help of Deputy Cowan.
Deputy Dunne has built up a reputation by criticism of Tulyar.
To take the question proper, I want to know also if it is a fact that the vendor of this animal will have priority in regard to use in thiscountry. Does it not amount to this, that we have made a present of £250,000 to this international figure to whom I have referred and, at the same time this animal will be kept in this country and its service and use will be made available to the person who sold it for such a colossal sum? If every member of the Fianna Fáil Party—and Deputy Cowan, an ex officiomember— wants to agree with that, that is their business; but I can say that the majority of the people in this country do not agree with it—and everyone knows that.
I should like to know, too, what amount of insurance falls to be paid in respect of this animal. According to the paper I quoted, its maximum earning capacity is in the neighbourhood of £16,000 per year. We do not know how much attendant expenses there are upon its purchase, and we do not know what it is going to cost to have it brought here in safety, cared for, and so on.
Neither do we know how much will be paid in insurance, if any insurance will be undertaken in respect of it at all. If insurance is to be undertaken, will it be taken out with an Irish company? Will any Irish company be sufficiently strong to insure the animal? I know that there have been inquiries and I am told that the annual premium on this animal would come to something like £9,000 per year. Add £9,000 per year to £250,000 and take into consideration the fact that it will be 1957 before we will know the result of this reckless gamble and then ask yourself if this is a prudent step for the Government to take. Nobody in his senses would believe it is.
I am not aware of what the employment potential of the bloodstock industry is. I venture to say that while it may be important, there are other industries which needed an injection of £250,000 far more urgently than does this industry. I should think that, if, for instance, the Minister for Finance had been anxious to obtain the maximum amount of money for the loan which he foisted on this country recently, he might have had the money invested in that national loan.
I have told the Deputy that Government policy by contrast with this cannot be discussed. The Deputy can discuss only the expenditure of £250,000 of money in respect of the purchase of this horse and not Government policy by contrast. Otherwise, we shall have the whole of Government policy before us.
Is that not rather an unfair ruling, Sir?
I think this must be regarded as a matter of policy.
He knows nothing about racehorses or about breeding, he has told us.
These are the points I wanted to make in connection with this matter. I want to contrast two important things that stand out in the public mind and that have been the subject of comment in the public Press and in the streets and everywhere people meet. On the one hand, we spend £250,000 on a horse, and, on the other hand, we have the greatest number of unemployed that we have had for the past 11 years. Is that sane? I think it is an absolutely insane act. If we lived in a condition of prosperity, it may well be that we could undertake some such step as has been taken in this case, but surely nobody would suggest that this is a prudent action on the part of the Government.
It might be bringing home some of our external assets.
That is the argument that is going to be put up in its favour, I know. I should like to mention this fact to those who are interested in racing and who follow the quadrupeds to any extent and I am sure it will be fortified by some of my friends in the House. This animal beat by a neck an animal known as Gay Time. This animal Gay Time was sold for £50,000, so that we are paying £200,000 for a neck. That is what it amounts to—and there are some necks here——
Precisely.
——which could not reach even that figure. There are someon the front bench of the Government side. I have put a certain number of questions to both Ministers who are here because there appears to be some divergence as to the responsibility in this matter: but these are State funds. This is public money being sent out of the country on a very risky proposition. It is, in my view and in the view of many people, a reckless gamble and an unjustifiable step. I should be glad to hear from either of the two Ministers just what the answer is to this. Nobody knew anything about it until we read of it in the papers. Let us hear some more about it. The people of this city have been demanding and crying out for milk and Fianna Fáil's answer was to give them a horse.
The Deputy must not have backed Tulyar.
Is the Minister obliged to answer that type of speech on the Adjournment?
It is a question.
It reduces the level of responsibility in this House if the Minister has to answer to a matter of that kind. I suggest he should not answer at all.
When Deputy Dunne raised this question this evening, I was surprised by the manner in which he raised it. Usually, when a Deputy requires information, he puts down a question, but on this occasion the Deputy saw fit to announce at the end of questions that he proposed to raise a question regarding the purchase of Tulyar. When he started his speech, he said he knew nothing about racing or about bloodstock, but he went on to describe in very great detail more about racing than I know myself. I do not know a terrible lot about it, but although Deputy Dunne said he knew nothing about it, he was at no disadvantage. He talks about the laziness of Tulyar. Did he look up the record of Tulyar in the past 12 months? He has won about seven races to the value of £70,000. That is a record, and it does not seem to fit in with the descriptionof him as a lazy and indolent animal who wants to lie up against his box.
He rests between races.
He looks around for something to lean on.
Mr. Walsh
From that point of view, Deputy Dunne does not seem to have described the horse as he should have been described. Last year, he won seven races: the Derby, the St. Leger, the King George VI Stakes, the Queen Elizabeth and Eclipse Stakes at Sandown Park, the Derby Trial Stakes at Lingfield, the Ormonde Stakes at Chester and the Henry VIII Stakes at Hurst Park. He has won over £70,000 in stake money, a record for any racehorse in Britain.
And he survives a debate on the Adjournment.
Mr. Walsh
Deputy Dunne wants to know if this was a Government decision. It was not. The Government has no function in the matter and had no function in the matter of buying this horse.
The Government do not even provide the money, I suppose.
Mr. Walsh
If Deputy Dunne had looked up the Act dealing with the setting up of the National Stud, he would have known that, and it would not have been necessary for him to come in here looking for the information.
The only function the Government has, so far as the National Stud is concerned, is to provide capital. In 1945, a certain capital was provided for the National Stud, but down through the years it has been discovered, due to many causes, that that capital was not sufficient, and when it is proved that it is not sufficient, it is the duty of the Government, if the National Stud is to carry out the functions it is designed to carry out, to provide the necessary capital. That is the only function the Government has in this matter. When Royal Charger was being purchased in 1946 there was an outcry in the House.
Who raised it then?
Mr. Walsh
It was raised by several Deputies here, I understand. At that time, in 1946, he cost £52,000 when horse flesh was not as expensive as it is to-day, and when they were not purchasing a horse with the same record that Tulyar has. The value of this horse has increased considerably. I have no hesitation in saying that if he were put on the market to-morrow he would fetch probably double that price. Last year there was not a word when the directors of the National Stud went to Newmarket Sales or Doncaster Sales -I could not say which—and paid the highest price at these sales for a filly, Staffa—£11,750. These are the functions of the directors of the National Stud. The directors are there charged with the full responsibility of working the National Stud in the interests of the country. The Government has no function in that matter and it was not a Government decision to buy Tulyar. It was the decision of the directors and the directors alone.
More power to their elbows.
Mr. Walsh
Tulyar will be one of the sires, and only one of the sires, at the National Stud. There are others. Let me quote some of the prices paid for these sires. Royal Charger, first of all, cost £52,000; Preciptic cost £15,000; Black Rock, £8,000, and Whitehall, £6,825. These are the four sires at the stud. Star Sapphire, a mare 13 years old, cost £6,720, and it was a wonder that Deputy Dunne did not raise a question in 1946 when that sum was paid for her. Neither did he raise any question when Staffa, a three-years-old at the time, cost £11,550.
That is a long way from £250,000.
Mr. Walsh
The function of the National Stud is to build up the bloodstock industry and this country holds a very proud place so far as bloodstock is concerned. For the past 50 or 60 years we have supplied more than half of the English Grand National winners. We have on numerous occasions produced winners of the Derby. St. Legerthe 2,000 and 1,000 Guineas and other classics. We have produced horses in this country that have held their own with the best in the world, and it is the function of the directors of the National Stud, if they are doing their duty to the country, to see that it is going to hold its own in the future by buying the best horses, which have proved themselves the best horses, in the world. They are fulfilling that function so far as this country is concerned. I say, further, that it is the duty of the Government, if the National Stud requires capital, or moneys for capital purposes, to see that that money is provided, because the bloodstock industry is as important for this country as any other industry. It gives as much employment as any other industry.
As much as dairying?
The Deputy will be glad to know that the milk strike is over.
No thanks to you.
Mr. Walsh
The production of bloodstock is an important industry as Deputy Dunne should know, not merely in County Kildare——
I do not deny that.
Mr. Walsh
It is an important industry not merely here in Leinster but even in Deputy O'Sullivan's constituency in Cork. There are people there also interested in the bloodstock industry. I believe it is one of the most important industries in Ireland.
We produced a Grand National winner for £10.
Mr. Walsh
If these people are prepared to do their duty—and they are doing their duty—and they require capital for that purpose it is the duty of the Government to provide them with that capital. I believe myself personally that they have done a good job. Royal Charger has proved himself, for the last few years, a really good horse. Last year he was No. Two sire in England and Ireland for two-years-oldand he was the first in Ireland for two-years-old. He came seventh in the general list of sires in England and Ireland. That was a good purchase and it proved that those who bought that horse knew their business. So also in this case, in the purchase of Tulyar the directors have gone out in a businesslike way to buy this horse.
Deputy Dunne seems to be in a critical mood as regard the former owner, the Aga Khan. The Aga Khan himself has stated that this horse was bid for by the Americans. They were prepared to give him a $1,000,000, £321,000, for the horse. He has a regard for this country, he claims, and he has proved that regard by selling us this horse at £70,000 under the price at which it was valued by the Americans.
Do you believe that?
Mr. Walsh
I have no reason to doubt it, and I do not know if the Deputy has any reason to doubt it. Whether it is true or not, I have as much right to believe that it is true as the Deputy to believe that it is not true.
I merely asked if you believed that.
Mr. Walsh
I do believe it. I see no reason why it should not be so. If the Americans were so anxious to buy Tulyar they had a high opinion of him. I believe, and I suppose everybody else does, that they will be just as anxious to buy his progeny. If that is so, thereis a market for the progeny of Tulyar, a dollar market.
He must prove himself first.
Mr. Walsh
The Deputy has tried to prove himself on many occasions in this House. We will take a chance on that. I do not think the Deputy is on a winner to-night either.
Time will tell that.
Mr. Walsh
As I have tried to explain to the Deputy, if there was any information he wanted in regard to this matter he could have got it by way of question and answer in the usual way. I hope it is now quite clear to him that this horse was not purchased as a result of a Government decision. The Government had no function in that matter. Their only function is to provide the capital required for the National Stud. They have done that so far. As a matter of fact, the sum voted as capital was not fully called up so far. For the past two or three years the directors have been trying to get a long-distance horse. They went to France, Italy and Britain for that purpose, but they were unable to get such a horse. This horse then came on the market and they went out and purchased it. I hope, and I am sure Deputy Dunne hopes, that it will prove to be a lucky purchase.
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 11th February, 1953.