Control of Imports (Amendment of Quota No. 45 and Revocation of Quota No. 46) Order, 1952.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

I move:—

That Dáil Éireann hereby approves of the undermentioned Order made under the Control of Imports Acts, 1934 and 1937:—

The purpose of this motion is to have the approval of the Dáil for an Order made by the Government amending Quota Order No. 45 and revoking Quota Order No. 46. In 1949, the then Government made four quota Orders, Nos. 43, 44, 45 and 46, prohibiting the importation of woven piece goods containing more than 60 per cent. by weight of cotton. These Orders were consequential on, and designed to give effect to, an agreement which had been made between the Irish cotton weavers and the British cotton weaving industry. That agreement broadly provided that the Irish market for piece goods of cotton would be reserved to theIrish manufacturers in respect of the fabrics which the Irish mills were then equipped to make and that the balance of the market would be substantially reserved for goods of British manufacture. Quota Orders Nos. 43, 44 and 45 covered the types of goods then being manufactured by the Irish cotton weavers and No. 46 covered all other types of cotton piece goods not produced here and its sole purpose was to reserve the bulk of the imports to goods of British manufacture.

That arrangement which was made between the private cotton weaving interests here and the private cotton weaving interests in Great Britain and which was implemented by Quota Order No. 46 established special preferential quotas for goods of British manufacture. It had the effect of preventing importers here from having access to these materials to the best advantage as in many cases the cloth was available from the Continent at more attractive prices than from Great Britain. The preferential quota established here as a result of that arrangement between trade interests was not approved by the British Board of Trade and the arrangement was also contrary to the principle of the O.E.E.C. and in subsequent years proved a source of embarrassment in trade negotiations with other countries.

It was decided, therefore, to terminate that arrangement, and in so far as that involved the revocation of Quota Order No. 46, it became necessary to consider also whether the cotton goods covered by that quota Order, which were not being manufactured here in 1949, were now being manufactured or likely to be manufactured in the future and, to the extent that there were such classes, to transfer them from Quota Order No. 46 to Quota Order No. 45. Quota Order No. 45, as originally framed, applied first of all to cloths weighing not less than three ounces per square yard. The market for cotton cloths weighing less than three ounces per square yard is estimated at about 1,000,000 square yards per year, and Irish cotton mills are now extending their production so as to get into a position in which they can meet thebulk of that demand. The principal cloths concerned are scrims, cheesecloths and handkerchief cloths.

Mr. Sweetman

What are scrims?

Mr. Lemass

Lightweight cloths. Quota Order No. 45 applied also to cloths with a woven pattern where those cloths exceeded 37 inches in width. The Irish mills are now producing cloths below that width. These are mainly towellings, glass-cloths and nursery twill and the mills will shortly be in a position to meet the whole of our market requirements which are also estimated in this case to be in the region of 1,000,000 square yards per year.

The other amendments to Quota Order No. 45 are mainly consequential upon these changes. The position in regard to these cloths is that, so far as handkerchief cloth is concerned, that is now being manufactured here by one concern and it is expected that the full requirements of the country will be met shortly. So far as the lightweight calicoes and casement cloths are concerned, these are all being made in sufficient quantity by the Irish mills to make it unnecessary for any provision to be made for their importation. The same applies to cheese-cloth and butter muslin, the manufacture of which has increased.

In the case of cycle tyre fabrics negotiations are in progress at present between the tyre manufacturers and an Irish cotton mill with a view to having their full requirements made here. It is anticipated that the production of that type of fabric will commence in the near future. In respect of the other types of cloth now caught by the Order, cotton gaberdine, coffin linings, shrouding and habit cloths, are not being manufactured here at the present time and provision is made in the quota Order for their importation in the requisite quantities. After consultation with the Linen and Cotton Textile Manufacturers' Association, I granted supplementary licences under Section 14 of the Control of Imports Act to permit the importation of materials which were in transit or for which firm orders had been placed on the date upon which the amending Order was made.

Particulars of all these licences will, in accordance with the provisions of that Act, be laid on the Table of the Dáil. The purpose of this Order is to adjust, first of all, the cotton quotas to the situation in which the cotton industry has extended the range of its production and, secondly, to terminate the unsatisfactory and objectionable arrangement under which special preferential quotas were fixed.

Mr. Sweetman

Could the Minister indicate where the goods in question are manufactured in this country?

Mr. Lemass

There are a number of cotton mills in the country.

Mr. Sweetman

Making the type of materials governed by this Order?

Mr. Lemass

They are made in a number of different mills.

Mr. Sweetman

The Minister referred to an extension. Is that in a number of places or in only one place?

Mr. Lemass

In some cases there is only one firm concerned in the new development. In others, there are a number of firms concerned. If the Deputy asks for it I am prepared to name the firms.

Mr. Sweetman

I do not think it right to ask for the names but I would like to have the places of manufacture.

Mr. Lemass

In the case of handkerchief cloths, it is the Slane Manufacturing Company. That applies also to surgical gauze and butter muslin. Cycle tyre fabric is to be manufactured by General Textiles in Athlone. Lightweight calicoes and casement cloths are manufactured by many of the Irish cotton mills.

Mr. Norton

Can the Minister say what additional employment is likely to be provided?

Mr. Lemass

I would not like to make an estimate of that. Some of the extensions to which I have referred have already taken place. Others are proceeding at the moment. The cotton industry offers considerable scope for future development and I hope to see that development take place in the course of the next year or so.

Mr. Norton

Could the Minister give us approximate figures?

Mr. Lemass

No.

Mr. Sweetman

This small Order is a very good example of the difficulty there is in trying to follow through the maze of Orders in so far as the commercial community is concerned. I suggest to the Minister that when an Order such as Order No. 330 of 1939 has to be amended in this fashion it should not present any great difficulty to reprint the whole Order incorporating the amendments in it. Bringing in separate amendments like this takes up a good deal of the time of the commercial community because of all the cross-references in trying to decide what the position is as regards tariffs. This is different from what one understands by codification in the ordinary sense where statutes are concerned. It should be possible to bring in one Order incorporating the necessary amendments and that should be the Order upon which the commercial community would work.

The Minister is usually fairly clear when he is trying to put across the implications of a measure which has to be discussed here but nobody listening to him to-day would have been able to gather what the position was unless they had before them and could follow by reference the original Order. I think it is unfair that the commercial community should be fogged by this type of legislation by Order and by reference, combining the worst points of the two.

In respect of the form of the Order, when an Order such as this is being named—Control of Imports (Amendment of Quota No. 45 and Revocation of Quota No. 46) Order—it should be possible to set out in the title something to indicate what the particular Order is about, whether it is about iron or steel or, as in this case, cotton. Something should be set out in the title to give interested parties an indication of the subject-matter of the Order. When notice of the making of such an Order is published in the Press, is the subject matter of the Order stated in the advertisement; or is an advertisement merely published inthe Press that a new Control of Imports (Amendment of Quota No. 45 Order and Revocation of Quota No. 46) Order, 1952, has been made? To try to get into the maze of these Orders, when any constituent comes to me with a query, leaves me in the position that it is almost impossible to disentangle the maze. The only way of doing it is to try and get the sequence of the Orders and what is required from the Department itself. That is not satisfactory for the commercial life of the country.

The explanation which the Minister has given us to-day may be understood by those in the trade: I am not competent to say. So far, however, as I am aware—and I speak subject to correction—this is the first explanation that has been given of this Order. I do not know whether the Minister can refer to any other official explanation which has been given earlier. So far as I am aware this is the first explanation that has been given of an undoubtedly extremely technical Order. I do not think it is fair that the first explanation of an Order made on 28th October last should be given on 25th March— a difference of five months. I do not think it is reasonable or proper that the House or the community concerned or the country should have to wait five months to obtain an explanation of an Order that is drafted so particularly by reference.

I come now to the material in the Order. Can the Minister give us any indication of the effect which this Order is likely to have on the cost of the articles that are involved? He has already indicated to Deputy Norton that he is not in a position to give us any indication of the employment that will be available. I should have thought that in each Restriction of Import Order the House would be informed of (1) the potential employment content and (2) the amount which it will cost the community and which, therefore, will be reflected in the cost of living. Obviously, such figures can only be estimates and may even be out, to a certain degree. However, any Minister who comes in here withOrders of this kind should be able to give the House the best estimate available to him of the employment content which will be available as a result of the Order and of the cost to the community as a whole. With that information, it would be easy for the House to make up its mind whether the Order is sound or whether it is unsound. Without these two items of information, the House is in the dark and is in the position of being able to judge only by a very general statement on a very technical matter on which very few people, if any, are competent to judge.

Mr. Norton

I do not understand why the Minister is not in a position to give us some indication of the employment which will be provided as a result of firms undertaking extended development in this particular textile or cotton field. The position is that whenever an application for an extension of a quota comes before the Government it is usually accompanied by some memorandum from the Department of Industry and Commerce indicating the effect which the imposition of a quota to protect the Irish industry will have in so far as future employment in the industry is concerned. I am quite sure that at some stage— unless there has been a radical departure from relatively recent practice— there is somewhere in the Department a memorandum which indicates the effect which the extension of these industries will have from the standpoint of providing employment. While the Minister may not have the documentation with him, certainly he has access to it. I think it would be useful, even from the point of view of creating an informed opinion on this matter, if we could have some information as to the employment to be provided.

With regard to the introduction of these Orders, I have, on previous occasions, tried to get some greater clarification of them than is contained either in their description or in what might be described as their content. I am quite certain that no Minister, apart from the Minister who has studied the departmental brief, has the slightest notion of the purposesuch an Order. Even though a Minister might have given his consent to these Orders at a Government meeting, he could not retain knowledge of their content for 24 hours because of the fact that they are so vague, so technical, so devoid of any information. It is not possible, in a busy life, to retain any information which might be gleaned by a close study of an Order or by inquiry into its content.

I do not think that this Government alone is responsible for the present position in respect of quota Orders or customs duties. Whoever sets the pattern of the legislative form of these Orders is responsible for the fact that nobody can clearly understand them unless he wraps wet towels around his head and settles down to probe into them.

Mr. Sweetman

We are not likely to bring the wet towels along with us in here.

Mr. Norton

As a matter of sensible parliamentary procedure, when an Order of this kind is tabled by the Minister in the first instance we ought to have with it some explanatory memorandum which will enable us to know what it is about. To judge by the description on the face of this Order, it could be about anything from a needle to an anchor. There is no indication of the commodities to which it refers. If these Orders are issued by people in the Departments who are familiar with what they are about, I do not see any special difficulties in asking those concerned to issue an explanatory memorandum which would be helpful to the public. Certainly it would be helpful to the Dáil. It would enable Deputies to approach a discussion of this kind armed with an explanation of what the Order is about and with knowledge of the direction in which we are travelling so far as industrial development is concerned.

I do not want to make any political point out of this matter. It is just a question involving sound procedure. If you were to ring the bell for a division, I think it is safe to say that not 1 per cent. of the Deputies of this House would know what they were voting for. That is not an intelligentprocedure in a democratic Assembly but that is the position so far as these Orders are concerned. I ask the Minister to examine that point. He can have all the credit that he likes to accumulate and my benediction as well —which has been available for many years for anybody who can manage to wrap up these Orders in language which any ordinary Deputy can understand.

Mr. Lemass

Any problem arising from the form of these Orders is one more for Deputies than for commercial interests. I understand that there is a certain legal objection to embodying any descriptive matter in the title of these Orders. Apart from that, it is not often that Orders of this character appear—Orders solely for the purpose of amending previously made Orders and consequently difficult to understand without reference to the original Orders.

So far as commercial interests are concerned Deputies can take it as certain that anybody connected with the manufacture or importation of cotton goods knows that Quota Orders Nos. 43, 44 and 45 are those that matter so far as he is concerned. Before this amending Order was made the extent and form of the amendment was discussed very fully with all those concerned so that they understood adequately what changes were being made. When formal notice of an Order of this kind is made by advertisement in the newspapers, an explanatory news item is also issued and, I think, generally published by the newspapers, so that apart from those who have a direct interest or who have already been consulted regarding the Order, the public have an opportunity of knowing what it is all about.

Mr. Sweetman

Is the explanatory statement also published?

Mr. Lemass

It is always issued to the newspapers. The advertisement is inserted and paid for. The news item is issued for information.

Mr. Sweetman

I have seen the notice but I do not think there was any explanatory statement in the same issue of the newspaper.

Mr. Norton

It gets about two lines in a newspaper.

Mr. Lemass

With regard to the effect of this Order on the cost of cotton goods or on employment in the cotton industry, I do not seem to have made the position very clear. By the Order made in 1949 all cotton goods were made subject to quota restrictions, even goods which were not then being manufactured in the country. Quota Order No. 46, which is now being revoked, applied solely to cotton goods not manufactured in the country and was made for the purpose of confining trade in these goods to imports from Great Britain. That quota Order has been revoked entirely. That type of preferential treatment to British imports is not desirable to the British Government. It is contrary to the principles of international trade laid down by the O.E.E.C. and obviously contrary to our own interests because it forced importers of goods of classes not made here to buy exclusively from Britain even though cheaper supplies would be available from other countries.

When, however, it was decided to revoke Quota Order No. 46 and to allow freedom in respect of the import of the classes of goods to which it referred it was necessary to consider what changes had taken place in the cotton industry of this country since it was made or what changes were in progress or anticipated in the near future, so that there could be taken out of the classes of goods to which Quota Order No. 46 referred any that it is now proposed to make here, for the purpose of including those classes in Quota Order No. 45. The classes of goods to which I made special mention were those that were not previously made in the country but which nevertheless were subject, on importation here, to restriction under Quota Order No. 46 and which will in future be restricted under Quota Order No. 45.

So far as the cotton industry here is concerned it is developing on reasonably efficient lines and, in fact, I think it is true to say we can produce most classes of cotton cloth here as cheaplyas they can be imported. So far as employment is concerned it is not possible to give a firm estimate of additional employment occurring in a single concern which is expanding its production. You cannot relate the additional employment to the separate forms of production. There may have been, in fact, no additional employment in one concern if production had only shifted from one type of goods to another.

It may be that the increased employment in another concern was due partly to entering upon those new lines and partly to the expansion of existing lines. That is why it is not possible to give any estimate such as Deputy Norton asked for. The cotton industry employs approximately 5,000 people. It is capable of employing more and through the encouragement of these quota Orders we are inducing the various firms to consider expansion into the new lines. That policy will no doubt continue until we are doing the whole job of supplying the internal market in respect of cotton goods which can economically be manufactured at home.

Mr. Norton

Will the Minister deal with the other point raised, that an explanation be issued with the Order to Deputies as to what the Order is about?

Mr. Lemass

I have no objection to that so long as it can be made quite clear that the explanation is completely unofficial and informal and not indicative of the manner in which the Revenue Commissioners will interpret the Order. The Deputy must understand that the Government makes a quota Order or Imposition of Duties Order and it is subsequently the function of the Revenue Commissioners to decide whether it applies to a particular class of goods and frequently the Revenue Commissioners have decided that the Order had a different effect from that which the Government intended and an amending Order became necessary. It will be appreciated that no such explanatory note could be regarded as prejudging the decision of the Revenue Commissioners.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 25 Mar 1953

Control of Imports (Amendment of Quota No. 45 and Revocation of Quota No. 46) Order, 1952.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Mar 1953