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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 16 Jun 1953

Vol. 139 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Turf Development Bill, 1953—Money Resolution.

I move:—

That for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to amend and extend the Turf Development Acts, 1946 and 1950, it is expedient to authorise:—

(1) the advance to Bord na Móna, out of the Central Fund, or the growing produce thereof, of such sums not exceeding in the aggregate £5,730,000, as the board may from time to time request;

(2) the payment to Bord na Móna out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of grants, not exceeding in the aggregate £60,000, towards the expenses incurred by the board under any schemes for the building by the board of houses for occupation by its servants.

Perhaps this would be the most appropriate time for me to ask the Minister for some information which I think he might be in a position to give us and which we should have before we pass this Money Resolution.

In the course of the debate on theSecond Reading of this Bill, the Minister mentioned a proposal to erect four generating stations in, I think, four of the western counties for the purpose of using surplus hand-won turf. Of course, the Minister stressed that the proposal to erect those four smaller stations was more of a social than an economic one. Before we pass this Money Resolution I think the Minister should give us some indication as to what it is estimated each of these four additional stations will cost.

I am prepared to go as far as anybody to provide a market for hand-won turf, particularly in the areas which the Minister has outlined, but the question of the capital cost of the stations themselves and what I would imagine to be—speaking without any technical knowledge of it—the fairly heavy cost of the overhead transmission from them might be much greater than would be justified or—let me put it another way—there might be a cheaper way of conveying or using the surplus hand-won turf in those areas. However, that will depend to a very large extent if not entirely on the estimated cost of those stations.

On this Money Resolution for the provision of money for the development of turf, I should like to direct the attention of the House to certain facts that appear to me never to have been discussed adequately in this House.

In December, 1921, a report was published on peat by a Commission of Inquiry into the Resources of Ireland. The report was signed by the late Professor Hugh Ryan, who was chairman of the commission, by Joseph Connolly, Thomas Dillon, Maurice Moore, J.P. O'Shea, Roger Sweetman, Robert N. Tweedy and Henry Walsh. The late Mr. Darrell Figgis was the secretary. At, paragraph 107, on page 31 of that report, the attention of the Oireachtas is directed to the following facts:—

"Apart from the use of peat for generating and power, its use has occasionally been proposed for a great variety of purposes. It has been employed for the manufacture of paper, clothes, carpets, antiseptic bandages. It has been converted intoa roofing and building material for houses, into a thermal insulator for ice stores, into a sound damper for telephone boxes, into a packing material for vegetables, fruit, eggs, fish and manures. It has been used for the filtration of oils, and for the manufacture of foodstuff (peat molassine meal). A brown pigment has been got from it, and, finally, attempts have been made to prepare from it a tanning solution similar to that got from brown coal."

Now, over and above that, at an earlier stage, this same report states that peat has been used, and was being used, for the generation of power in the form of pulverised peat in the 19th century. What puzzles me a little about all this is that, listening to much of what the Minister for Industry and Commerce has said to us, you would imagine that the procedures for using pulverised turf were of relatively recent development and that the available information about the processes employed was hard to come by. According to this report, these operations have been going on for close on 55 years.

Is it not queer that, when you go down to the Library of Oireachtas Éireann to inform yourself of the research work that has ensued on these operations 55 years ago, and search the index of the Oireachtas Library, there is not a single reference in the Oireachtas Library to turf? There is one reference to peat—which is the report from which I have just now been reading an extract. Surely there must be a very large volume of subsequent information available arising out of the user of turf for these various purposes since they were first initiated, and surely that information ought to be gathered for the information of the Oireachtas and made available to those who are interested in the matter for perusal in some readily accessible form?

There is one user of turf which strikes me as being one that would be and, I assume, has been investigated, but which I have never heard discussed here, and that is the gasification of turf. I know that in America they think nothing of piping methane gas, deriveddirectly from the soil, thousands of miles and, quite commonly, hundreds of miles. I observe that the gasification of turf for the immediate vicinity of a bog not only makes gas for stationary engines available but also provides a fairly wide range of by-products that could be further processed into very useful commodities for sale here or abroad. The reason I am consternated that these things have not more fully been ventilated here is that it suggests itself to me that possibly further work on these kinds of operations has revealed that it is impracticable—but it does not seem from this report that, in our circumstances, the gasification of turf could be deemed to be impracticable. I should be interested to hear from the Minister whether any active project on these lines is being pursued. If there is, might I appeal to him, instead of erecting a gas plant as big as the White City, to establish a pilot unit where whatever procedure we think most likely to succeed could be tried out and amended and adjusted before an immense capital investment of a permanent character is undertaken?

In paragraph 22 of this report—and it is to be borne in mind that this report is now 30 years old—it is stated that, in the judgment of this commission—and it was a very good commission—the most efficient method of developing power from peat is that of the producer and gas engine.

I should like if the Minister could conveniently tell us whether he has studied the 19th recommendation of this report, which is dealt with in further detail in paragraph 315.

This might be relevant to the Second Reading of a Turf Development Bill. It does not seem relevant to the Money Resolution, which provides money for certain purposes set out.

Yes, for the development of turf. The Minister said he wanted to develop the user of turf in all ways but he dwelt mainly on the erection of electricity stations.

That has been approved of on Second Reading.

Agreed. I am suggesting that the money might be better used in the development——

That might be relevant on Second Reading. It is not relevant on a Money Resolution to provide money for the purposes which the Bill sets out.

Under the Bill you could use the money for any of the purposes —for the production of wax, the production of gas or the production of electricity.

I do not think the Bill sets out that.

The Minister says he is going to produce wax under this Bill.

Not under this Bill.

Is the purpose of the Bill not the drainage and development of bogs for their further utilisation for the generation of electricity and such other purposes as may be practicable?

The money is being provided for two specific programmes which have been published to the Dáil —additional money for the completion of these programmes.

For the draining of bogs. I am sure that nobody wants unduly to restrict me, but surely one of these purposes is the purpose of using turf to generate electricity. In that connection, I want to refer, with specific reference to the user of turf for the generation of electricity, to paragraph 177. I suppose this has special reference to the Bangor-Erris project, but it may be adapted to any of the stations where it is proposed to use turf. The paragraph says:—

"The use of peat dust or pulverised peat for firing furnaces was introduced by J. Ekelund in 1910 and a factory for the manufacture of peat powder was erected by the Aktiebolaget Torf at Back, in Sweden, in that year."

The report then goes on to describe how pulverised peat was prepared and used in great detail and goes on further to say that there were 10,000 Swedish tons of this material annually used in firing these stations. In paragraph 179, the report says that the Swedish Government, in 1914, used pulverised peat for locomotives on the railways and that the process was subsequently extended to Rühemäki, in Finland. Paragraph 182 contains this remarkable finding:—

"In the Swedish trials, it was found that the steam pressure would be maintained as easily with peat powder as with coal while the superheating was greater——"

Surely the Deputy does not contend that all this is relevant to the Money Resolution?

There are two ways in which turf can be used to fire a station. We can carry the turf, as we are doing at present, in sods from Ballaghaderreen to Portarlington or fire the station with pulverised peat, if it is adapted for that purpose. Is it in the slightest degree outside the strictest bounds of relevancy and order to discuss various methods of using the turf to be developed with this money?

As I understand it, the Bill sets out to empower Bord na Móna to do certain things and we are providing the money to enable them to do these certain things. Whether we should do that or not is the matter before the House.

To develop bogs for the production of turf for the production of power—is that not the purpose of the Resolution? We can produce turf in sods: we can produce turf mechanically and by hand-won methods: and we can produce pulverised turf. What puzzles me is the fact that there is a great deal of relevant and carefully sifted scientific fact contained in this report. Not one syllable of this has ever been brought to the attention of Oireachtas Éireann, so far as I know. What is in this report is 30 years old and there must be a mountain of stuff which has developed out of what wasknown in 1910. Yet I think it is true to say that perfectly well-intentioned and well-informed persons call in question at present the fact that you can use pulverised peat to fire electricity generating stations. That puzzles me, and I think the Minister does us less than justice if, in bespeaking a substantial investment of this kind, he will not furnish Oireachtas Éireann with what seems to me to be the vitally relevant information which I cannot get by reference to the Library but which I cannot doubt he has somewhere.

Did any Deputy know that they were firing electricity generating stations with pulverised peat in Sweden 40 years ago? Did any Deputy know that 50 years ago they were making gas out of turf and a wide range of by-products? Can any Deputy now compare the relative merits for me of coal coke as opposed to dried and anhydrous turf or turf dust? Surely it is reasonable to expect that before Oireachtas Éireann makes up its mind on questions of this character the Minister would at least give us the benefit of his views on the relative merits of these several procedures? I will be quite frank; I did not know this until I rooted it out for myself and I do not think that ordinary Deputies should be left in that position. How many Deputies have had this report out and have read it? I do not think anybody knew it was in the Oireachtas Library but myself. There is a lot of information in it and to me what is peculiarly interesting, most of it is 40 to 50 years old. But there is more information in that 30-year-old report than in anything I have read in any of the annual reports of Bord na Móna or than anything I have read or heard of what the Minister for Industry and Commerce has said in connection with this Bill or any previous development Bill. I turn then to the Minister's original White Paper which he circulated when the first Turf Development Bill was brought in and from the first paragraph of it to the last there is no reference to the fact that that report is in existence at all.

I would ask the Minister to consider the desirability of doing this for us,taking the various methods for the user of turf advocated in the 27 recommendations of that report, and to let us have at his convenience a note informing us in a White Paper or some other suitable publication what 30 years' further inquiry has revealed in respect of these several proposals, and in respect of those where further development towards practicality has materialised, a more copious note as to what the development has been.

In that regard I would speak with special reference to the user of pulverised peat as recorded in Sweden in 1910 and of the coking of peat and the user and processing of the by-products of that process. I would ask the Minister to reassure the House that the relative values of these peat procedures will be fully considered not only by Bord na Móna but by himself with whatever consultants he cares to employ before irrevocable decisions are taken to invest very large capital sums in one particular method of the user of turf for generating power.

I take it that on the Minister's estimate, we will, perhaps, have an opportunity of discussing the general question of turf user in a wider relevance than appears to be proper on this Money Resolution but, even in the restricted relevance of this Resolution, I would be grateful if the Minister would conveniently say a word on the matters to which I have referred, arising out of that report in 1921.

I think Deputy Dillon is somewhat mistaken in regard to the amount of reference to peat development that may be found in the Dáil Library. If he were to look up the Official Reports in the Library of Dáil Debates he would find very extensive references to peat and he would be able, I think, to quote very long-winded statements by a certain Deputy Dillon on the subject of peat development over the last 20 years. I think he would find peat, along with wheat and beet, denounced in every direction. Indeed, all efforts by Fianna Fáil at peat development were ridiculed. It is agood thing that Deputy Dillon's researches down in County Wicklow have brought to his notice that there are considerable areas in this country covered with this once-despised product. If he travelled through West Wicklow, as I believe he did, he would find big areas of bog which are capable of development. However, in regard to those bogs they are, in the main, shallow bogs and are not of the type that have been extensively developed by Bord na Móna at the instigation of the Minister over the last 20 years.

I often wondered is there not some use that could be made of peat in shallow bogs which is, perhaps, not of a very superior quality. The area of our country that lies under such bogs is considerable and if we could find some means not only of utilising whatever amount of peat is in those bogs but also if we could reclaim the lands upon which they are found and convert them into agricultural land or into land suitable for afforestation, it would be a tremendous step towards the development of our country.

The Deputy is making a Second Reading speech.

I was just following on the line taken by Deputy Dillon. I might mention that I happened to be absent for the Second Reading.

That does not justify a Second Reading speech.

I would like to draw the Minister's attention to the need for that particular type of development. I am not going to go into it in any detail. I think the Minister probably realises himself that over the last 20 years a vast amount of work has been done on what I might call high-quality bogs or bogs of very considerable depth. That is praiseworthy work. In addition, we have had various schemes for the reclamation and the utilisation of these bogs for agricultural purposes but areas such as we have in County Wicklow have been neglected and it is no harm to draw the Minister's attention to that matter now. If the residue of peat on those lands could be utilised, it would help to lower the very high cost of draining, reclaimingand improving that land for agricultural or afforestation purposes.

It is a good thing that Deputy Dillon has been induced after such a long period, to make some research into this matter and although some people were not as pleased with him in the County Wicklow, particularly in Tinahely, as he would have liked, I think his visit to that constituency has to a certain extent opened his eyes and sent him delving into the records of the Library.

That is far away from the Money Resolution.

I would like to refer to the work that was done over 30 years ago by men who took their lives in their hands to find out the potentialities of this country and make suggestions as to how those potentialities could be developed to the fullest extent. I would like to pay a tribute—since the matter has been raised—to the work of that commission in 1921. Every member of it travelled throughout the country with a price on his head and went in imminent danger of his life. Those men nevertheless produced a report which is of very considerable value, and which has been of considerable value to the Government all the years since.

With regard to the point raised by Deputy Morrissey, none of the money provided by this Bill nor any of the powers conferred by it are intended to be used in connection with the establishment of the four small generating stations to be located in western counties and fired by hand-won turf. The idea of establishing such stations has been approved and the E.S.B. have been asked to prepare plans. The plans are being made at the present time, and until I have received them I cannot give an estimate of what they will cost. Bord na Móna will not come into the operation of these stations at all except perhaps in an advisory capacity.

I know that, but the Minister himself brought it in in this Bill. He referred to the fact that reference had been made to theproblem of disposing of hand-won turf.

May I inform the Deputy that a Bill is coming along shortly to provide additional funds and powers for the E.S.B.? The fact is I am not in a position to give any estimate of the cost of these stations. I am glad Deputy Dillon discovered and read the report of the economic commission of the first Dáil. If he had discovered it 30 years ago and read it then it would, perhaps, have saved him a lot of mistakes. Let me be clear. A lot of experiments have been carried out and are being carried out now in the utilisation of turf and methods of winning it, and possible chemical industries that might be based on it. I have not thought it necessary or desirable to report on these experiments to the Dáil except when they led to some decision to take action. I think the Deputy is mixing up several things in his mind. Milled peat—peat in the form which we are proposing to use it for firing of boilers in power stations—is different to pulverised peat. Pulverised peat was used experimentally on many occasions. Some ten years ago a series of experiments was carried out by an engineer in the services of Hospitals' Trust—he happens also to be a member of Bord na Mnna—and a report was prepared. I have a personal recollection of being present at the meeting of the scientific body at which his paper was read. There is not any question that pulverised peat will burn and has certain advantages over other fuels for steam-raising purposes. The economy of pulverised peat as a fuel is a different matter nor do I understand that it is necessary to carry out further experiments in that direction in view of subsequent developments. The much more economical milled peat which Bord na Móna proposes to use for power station purposes satisfies the immediate requirements of the E.S.B. in regard to fuel for these stations.

The development of this new jet burner—the Mona jet burner—by Bord na Móna offers the possibility of the utilisation of peat for industrial purposes without even reducing it to milled form. The aim of the boardhas been to get peat fuel available in the most economical form so that the cost of generating steam would be kept at the lowest. While they are satisfied that they have made considerable progress in that regard the experiments are still going on and they are every day adding to their knowledge of the methods by which peat can be won, can be transported and utilised.

Is anyone generating steam from milled peat in a pilot plant?

No. It has been done experimentally but it will not be done on a substantial scale until the new Ferbane station is operating.

Suppose we discover when the stations are built that we cannot use milled peat?

All doubts on that subject have been removed already by experiments carried out here and in other countries. Both the E.S.B. and Bord na Móna are satisfied that no further experiment is required. When I brought in here in 1951 a Bill dealing with E.S.B. affairs I intimated that we had then consented to the provision of money for the erection of a pilot plant at Portarlington to be operated on milled peat. The E.S.B. has now decided that a pilot plant is not required and they can proceed forthwith to install the apparatus which has already been designed.

A very well-informed engineer told me that he was perfectly satisfied that these stations would not work on milled peat.

The Deputy is always being caught out when he goes into the realms of prophecy.

I am only asking you to establish a pilot plant.

I have no responsibility for the Dáil Library and I do not know what explanation there is that a Deputy is not able to find more information there regarding peat. There is a fairly full library of publications on the utilisation and characteristics of peat at Bord na Móna'sexperimental station at Droichead Nua. I am sure they would like to facilitate the Deputy.

I am sure they would but is it not conceivable that Oireachtas Éireann would have access to the information?

If the Deputy had been here during the Second Reading he would have heard that the committee in charge of the technical assistance project relating to peat gasification is preparing a report and it will shortly be available. A substantial investigation has been carried out under the direction of this committee and all information which it gathered will shortly be available.

But will it be published?

With regard to the production of town gas from peat——

What is town gas?

The kind of gas you get when you turn on the taps at home under the cooker.

Oh, I had heard of coal gas and methane gas——

We carried out investigations during the war but dropped that because there was not enough peat available to justify going ahead with it. In any event the information gathered established that it would not be an economical process in normal times. It was only the scarcity of coal during the war years that justified its examination at all.

Deputy Cogan referred to the possibilities of utilising mountain bog for any purpose. Again, I can only say that Bord na Móna experts are examining every possibility based on peat. Up to the present they have not discovered mechanical means of exploiting mountain bog or the blanket bog which one finds over western Ireland, for fuel purposes. Originally they based their plans for the mechanised development of sod turf on the characteristics of the deep midland bogs. Then they perfected a method of producing milled peat, which opened up a prospect of exploiting certain western bogs on which the midland methodcould not have been operated. They are deeply interested in all the possibilities of mountain bog because by far the greater part of the bog areas in the country are of that kind. In the course of time, they may devise some method by which they can be developed. They have experimented with the hydraulic method of winning peat, that is by ejecting peat from the bog by means of water jets, and drying it in drying beds. That does not appear to be as economical as their present method of winning peat but they still have it in mind as a possible development in view of its applicability to the problems of winning peat from the shallower bogs in mountain areas.

Bord na Móna are maintaining a well equipped experimental station and they have available there men who are, I think, now recognised as foremost experts in the world upon all problems associated with peat. They are really enthusiastic about their work and the House may be assured that any possible outlet for the utilisation of peat will command their attention and, if they can develop it to the point at which it has economic possibilities, that will be done.

May I ask the Minister a question? I mentioned before that the Dutch Minister for Agriculture told me that they were making paper out of turf. I asked Bowaters if they would look into that and they told me decently enough that they would and arranged that the results of any research they had done, or any research that they might carry out subsequently would be made known to us. Did the Minister or the Government ever get any communication from Bowaters in that connection?

I could not answer that question straightway. There is nothing you cannot make out of peat that you can make out of any vegetable matter, but it is the economy of the operation that matters. As I mentioned on Second Reading, the idea of manufacturing insulated wall board has been recently taken up by a Swedish company and Bord na Móna is taking an active interest in that.

I would be grateful if the Minister would let me know whether Bowaters have furnished any report on their investigation.

Resolution agreed to, and reported.

Report agreed to.

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