Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 24 Jul 1953

Vol. 141 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote on Account, 1953-54. Motion by Minister for Finance (Resumed).

When the House adjourned last night, I was suggesting to the Minister that, with a view to getting the best possible return for the money spent by the Department of Local Government under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, and, further, with a view to relieving unemployment in certain areas, it would be desirable that the Department should immediately sanction the schemes which have been passed by the local authorities so that the work could be carried out now, and so that the best possible return would be got for the money spent. If that were done it would have the effect of alleviating the conditions which exist in many areas throughout the different counties where there is unemployment. I think that is a suggestion which should commend itself to the Minister. I sincerely hope that he will get in touch with the Department of Local Government with a view to getting my suggestion put into effect without delay. I believe that the carrying out of this work now, in conjunction with an intensification of the work to be done under the land project, would be very beneficial to the country.

In connection with the land project, I want to say that there is great disappointment amongst the farming community at the slow speed at which it is being operated. I know farmers in my constituency who made application in the first month the scheme was made applicable to the county, and they are still waiting for inspection and approval. Speaking generally, I think it would he futile to deny that the people are very much perturbed at the change that has taken place in the economic situation of this country over the past two years. Whether the Government like to admit it or not. it is a fact that during the lifetime of the inter-Party Government there was a reasonable standard of prosperity amongst every section of the community. That is not the case to-day. Whatever may be the reason, whetherworld conditions generally are to blame or whether it is the policy of the Government that is to blame, the fact is, without exaggerating it by rhetorical language, that there is a very high cost of living figure, a very high degree of unemployment and an economic situation that gives cause for alarm.

The marches of the type that we have been witnessing for the past couple of weeks in the capital city give every sensible man pause and must give whatever statesmen have control of the destiny of the country a check and make them realise that there is a situation that must be dealt with. I am not taking any sides in that matter. I am not conversant with the conditions which obtain in this city. When I speak of unemployment I speak of it as I know it in the country. We realise that an unemployed man in the city is in a far worse situation than an unemployed man in the country. That position, if allowed to develop, will bring this country to the verge of ruin.

No member of the Government can any longer pretend that it was the recklessness and extravagance of the inter-Party Government that brought about the present situation. I do not think there is any use in riding that horse any longer. The Taoiseach—the country owes him a debt for doing so— exploded that theory in Cork when he revealed, after a long silence, that more than 50 per cent. of the Marshall Loan was still unexpended.

That is not so. It was committed. It had to be paid out to fulfil the commitments.

It was not spent. There was £24,000,000 there. It was not spent.

It had to be paid out to fulfil the commitments.

Could not you do what we did with the Constellations?

Commitments and undertakings are different things.

We scrapped the Constellations.

You want us to scrap the E.S.B.?

I hope we will have none of the Party political propaganda that we had for the last six days.

On both sides of the House.

You should take off your halo now and again.

I share the view of Deputy Hickey entirely. It cannot be alleged that since I became a member of this House I have indulged in a display of Party politics. I have a very open mind on this whole question. The statement of the Taoiseach in Cork left very little doubt in my mind that that part of the propaganda of the Government had failed.

It was also alleged that the inter-Party Government had dissipated our external assets and bad brought the countiy to the verge of bankruptcy. I realise that when people get on platforms they are liable to make extravagant statements. We had the admission of the Minister for External Affairs the day before yesterday that they did not dissipate the external assets but increased them. Some proper reason must be given to the people as to why the circumstances have altered so considerably in the last few years. They will not believe that propaganda any longer. I admit that a great number of people who are not bigoted politically did accept the statements that were made during those two years. A great many sensible people said that perhaps we did need this check, that perhaps the last Government were spending extravagantly but, in the light of the two statements which I have referred to, the one by the Taoiseach and the other by the Minister for External Affairs, they are now disillusioned.

Frankly, I do not think it was the statements alone of Ministers for the first 12 months after they took office that created the trouble. Sensible people usually do not pay a lot of attention to politicians' statements and they are right. What affected the economic situation was the fact that the Minister for Finance had to pay 5 per cent. for a national loan. That created the situation that money was dearer here than it had ever been before. Every aspect of economic life was affected by the fact that the Minister for Finance had to pay such a high rate of interest for money. It will be found on examination that economic stagnation dates from the time the Minister made that announcement.

It is now understood that there will be another national loan issued this year, possibly at an even higher rate. If so, we may safely assume that those who have to borrow money will pay a substantially higher rate of interest than they are paying to-day. Does any Government suggest that that will solve the economic situation in the country?

These are not politics. These are hard economic facts. The sooner every member of this House realises that, the sooner a solution will be found. I freely admit that if I were saying these things for the purpose of belittling or lowering the standard of the Government, no matter what Government it might be, I would not be worthy of the slightest attention. Cannot we all admit frankly that there is an economic situation here which calls for immediate attention by every honest citizen? If we do, I am quite satisfied that there is sufficient patriotism, business acumen and intelligence in this House to solve whatever problems may confront us. He would be a poor man, he would be a poor Irishman, no matter where he sits in this House, if he would regret that such a solution could be found.

I have no intention of prolonging this debate. To be quite candid, I had not intended to speak in the debate. I expected last night that the debate would conclude and for that reason I had not prepared my statement as wellas I might have. When I came into the House last night it was not my intention to speak. As the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government knows, there was a great expectation that we might be able to conclude the business last night. I did not intend to participate in the debate. I made a statement from memory which the Minister challenged and told me to give the reference. I shall do so.

Paragraph 3 of the Annex to the Trade Agreement with Great Britain says:—

"The Government of Ireland further undertake that in any year 25 per cent. of total exports of live cattle from Ireland to countries other than the United Kingdom shall consist of second class cattle."

Will the Minister challenge that statement?

What about paragraph 5 of the 1948 Agreement?

I was not a member of this House when the Trade Agreement was made in 1948.

The Deputy was a member of the Seanad and supporting the Coalition.

It was equally bad.

I said last night, and I want the Minister to believe me now when I say, that I regarded it then as wrong and I regard it now as wrong and, as I told you, two wrongs will never make a right.

This debate has been rather like a snowball. Most of the speakers started by telling us that they had not intended to speak. That is common to practically all debates, because something that an opponent says or even a colleague stimulates argument, stimulates some Deputy's interest in the debate. I was here during the course of the first part of Deputy McGilligan's speech and I heard him giving us in broad perspective what he described as the results of the economic policy of Fianna Fáil in so far as they affected emigrationand employment. In view of some of the facts he gave rather in a general way, I think I might be permitted to refer to one or two of the comments he made. First of all, he told us with regard to the balance of payments, which his own chief, Deputy Costello, viewed with alarm in 1950 when the figure was in the region of £30,000,000, that when it reached £60,000,000 their advice to Fianna Fáil as a Government which had recently assumed office was not to worry, that the terms of trade were about to turn in our favour and that agricultural output as a result of Deputy Dillon's policy was on the increase, with the result that agricultural exports were bound to increase.

Let us examine the sage advice given to us on these two points. First of all, it did not need the wizardry of any ex-Minister for Finance to tell us that the terms of trade were about to turn in our favour. Everybody knew that on the outbreak of the Korean war there was panic buying and stockpiling throughout the whole world. Therefore, any commodities that this country, or any other country for that matter, had to import were bought in a seller's market. These goods were either scarce or there was a great suspicion and a serious expectation amongst nations that they would become scarce, which in itself created a scarcity and inflated prices because of that seller's market. With the situation easing as far as Korea was concerned, with the attempts to get a settlement of that situation, it was perfectly obvious even to the most superficial thinker that the terms of trade were about to change. Therefore, there was no force in Deputy McGilligan's argument that as a result of that advice the Government should not have taken the adverse balance of payments situation so seriously. The Government knew exactly what the situation was, as any other Government would have known.

Take his second point, that our main export, agricultural produce, was bound to increase as a result of Deputy Dillon's policy. Let us look even at the general figures of agricultural output in the year preceding Deputy Dillon's departure from office. Heifers-in-calfhad declined by 3,700 head; milch cows by 20,000; tillage by several tens of thousands of acres. Is it not ludicrous to suggest that as a result of Deputy Dillon's policy agricultural output was on the increase and therefore exports must have increased as a consequence?

Give us the figures for agricultural exports.

Mr. Lynch

I have not the figures. I am going back to the fundamental figures. Heifers-in-calf and milch cows had declined very seriously in the last year of Deputy Dillon's régime, and it is only natural that if we were to pursue that line of agricultural economy our exports were bound to decrease as long as milch cows, heifers-in-half and tillage were on the decrease.

Will the Deputy not agree that an in-calf cow is at least three years old?

Mr. Lynch

Yes.

They are only coming to maturity and we are seeing the benefits now of Deputy Dillon's policy.

Mr. Lynch

The point I am making is that it cannot be denied that not only cattle, but sheep, poultry and pigs had declined during Deputy Dillon's régime, as well as tillage. Therefore it cannot be honestly claimed that agricultural output in volnme was on the increase. It may, well have been increasing in value as a result of the increased value of agricultural products.

The Deputy then went on to deprecate the result of Fianna Fáil policy over the years on our population generally. He said that in the 21 years since 1932, 500,000 of our population were forced to emigrate and that on the average during each one of these years 60,000 people were on the unemployed register. As Deputy McGilligan brought us back to 1932, it might be no harm to jerk his own memory and bring him back to three or four years before 1932 when our emigration figures in some of these years stood at 25,000, 28,000 and 30,000. From 1932 to 1938, the last yearbefore the war, there was a steady decline, until we had the lowest figure ever reached since statistics were compiled, a figure very little over 8,000. I do not intend to go into the figures during the war years.

We knew they were unduly high then, but there were good economic reason for that. But immediately after the war the figures again began to decline and in 1947, the last year before Fianna Fáil left office, the emigration figure was 10,000. In 1948 it jumped again to 28,000, in 1949 to 34,000 and in 1950 to 41,000. Therefore I suggest that if the figures quoted by Deputy McGilligan are correct they would have been much worse but for the advent of the Fianna Fáil Government in 1932 and the embarkation on the second arm of our economic policy, the expansion of our industrial projects.

I forget whether it was in this debate or during the debate on the vote of confidence that Deputy Larkin commented on the figures of those in gainful employment in the country over the past 25 years. He commented in particular on the fact that, while Fianna Fáil claimed—and he readily admitted—that 100,000 odd people more had been put into industrial emloyment during their years of office, nevertheless the overall figure of the increase in employment as between agriculture and industry was only about 12,000 people. Is it not pertinent to suggest that were it not for that industrial expansion policy of Fianna Fáil, these figures would have been far worse?

I know that the fact that industrial employment was being created in the cities, in the towns and in some rural areas was having the effect of inducing people to leave the land. Notwithstanding that, there was the kindred problem, if you like to call it that, as far as the employment content on the land is concerned, namely, mechanisation on the farms. That, too, was having its effect. The tractors and combines appearing on the farms were creating less opportunity for manual work there Apart altogether from theattraction of industrial work, that also was driving people from the land. Therefore, is it not only right to suggest that were it not for the opportunities created by the industrial programme of Fianna Fáil in 1932, when well over 100,000 people were put into employment, the flight from the land and the unemployment figures as between industry and agriculture in this country would have been seriously worse at the present day?

In that connection I might comment on Deputy Larkin's speech. One automatically associates Deputy Larkin and most of what he says with the trade union and the labour movements. Deputy Larkin, like myself, is not too young to remember the years before 1932 when his trade union and other trade unions were not in existence, that to belong to a trade union was in many cases considered some kind of a badge of serfdom and certainly was not looked on with any favour by those in authority.

The growth of the trade union movement is allied to the Fianna Fáil industrial expansion programme. According as workers were being put into employment, according as there was a reasonable prospect of continuity of employment, the workers combined and went into their different unions. As far as I can judge—and I have not looked at the figures too closely—the registered membership of trade unions in this country in the last 25 years has increased by anything from 700 to 1,000 times. Therefore, is it not only right to claim that apart altogether from the separate measures that were taken over the years the security of employment, as a result of the combination of the workers in their different unions, went hand in hand with the advancement of Fianna Fáil agricultural and industrial policy?

As I indicated at the outset, Deputy McGilligan reminded us that he had given us that wonderful advice about changing the terms of trade when agricultural output was about to increase, but neither Deputy McGilligan nor any other spokesman from his Party gave us any indication as to how the gap of £15,000,000 that he left between the provision made to meet current expenditureand what current expenditure actually proved to be at the end of the year when he introduced the Budget which he knew he would not have to defend. Neither he nor anybody else has told us how they proposed to bridge that gap then or even now if they assumed office. Is it by way of increased taxation or by way of a reduction in many of the services that we have now or that even in the past year have been increased by Fianna Fáil? Deputy Hickey, I know, deprecates this line of argument but it is only pertinent to ask these questions when so much capital is being made out of a serious situation.

Is it not somewhat useless?

Mr. Lynch

It is not a bit useless. If we can get someone from that side of the House to make a reasonable approach to these problems or at least attempt to answer the question I put, I do not think it will be in the slightest degree useless. Much comment in the course of this debate has been made on the unemployment situation. I do not intend to indulge in platitudes that might be interpreted as an appeasement of those unemployed people. However, it is very easy for me to say and to mean that we all deprecate the position that has arisen. I would say to the people who are demonstrating that, apart altogether from their parades and their protests, the situation was very much present to the minds of the Government and to the minds of us who have any authority on local councils. They have made their protest and let them claim that it has been effective inasmuch as it may have stimulated more interest in their problem on the part of those in a position to remedy it. But I would suggest that, having made their protest and having been assured by the Government, by the corporations of the two main cities and by many county councils that every effort is being made to relieve the situation from now on, they should give an opportunity for these efforts on their behalf to materialise.

It has been suggested also that there is no point in meeting that situation by relief schemes, that to meet the situationin that manner will only create a similar situation in the near future; that we would again have to resort to a system of relief schemes to keep-down the figures on the live register. But the Taoiseach last night outlined, as far as Dublin is concerned, two or three major schemes that were on the point of being ready to go ahead. He referred particularly to the runways at Baldonnel and to the construction work that is urgently necessary in Dublin Castle, which was under consideration in 1948 and is now being brought to a stage when work can commence at an early date. These, surely, cannot be construed to be relief schemes. They are productive works which will have a high labour content.

There are, however, throughout many parts of the country, works that might be considered as relief schemes, but works which county councils and corporations by a little advanced planning—for example, clearance of derelict sites—could immediately embark upon, and while at the moment it would appear non-productive, ultimately it could the up with their town planning and housing programmes, with the result that even at this stage that work which could otherwise qualify for the title of relief would ultimately assume the title of productive work.

In Cork, in my own area, I know that the employment situation is not what I would like it to be. I get every week a quota of people, as well as looking for houses, looking also for jobs; in fact, those are the two main categories of the people who come to me looking for my assistance in the relief of their problems. But I think many of the people coming to me at the present time are people who have left jobs in England, or if they have not left jobs, have lost their jobs in England through slackness of one sort or another and have come back to Ireland looking for work. Many of them by their skill have been able to find it readily. Others for lack of skill or opportunity in the jobs for which they are skilled have been unable to get it. But in Cork the position is well in hand and schemes are being prepared and in many cases about to start thatcan absorb a large proportion of those who are at present unemployed.

Worthwhile works must, of necessity, take some time to plan properly if they are to prove ultimately to be of value, but even at the present time one of the most worthwhile jobs, that is, the development of our natural resources—and I refer particularly to the Lee hydro-electric scheme—is in full swing and there have been numbers of unemployed absorbed into it and according as the activities there will expand, more and more people will be able to find work there.

I referred earlier on to the effect of Fianna Fáil's industrial policy on the general relief of unemployment in the country and I suggest, and I think it cannot be denied, that their agricultural policy as well as stimulating work on the land has reflected the value of the policy by creating work in the towns and in the cities. Fianna Fáil policy with regard to agriculture is to encourage the maximum utilisation of our land, and in order to do so that land requires as much fertilisers as we can possibly apply to it. I am informed on good authority that in the fertiliser factory that we have in Cork more people were working during the season this year than there ever were in living memory. I think that is in itself a tribute to the manner in which our farmers are responding to the call for greater output and the manner in which the agricultural policy of the country is being handled. I believe that our fertiliser output is still falling far short of our normal needs, and I think that there is a field in which expansion of employment opportunities should at an early date be availed of. There is no doubt that more and more of our land will be brought into production and as a result more and more fertilisers will be used. If our present fertiliser manufacturing outfits are not geared or are not big enough to handle the output required, I think they should now seriously consider increasing their plant or modernising it, whichever will have the desired effect or both, in order to meet the already increased demand for fertilisers in this country.

We often hear of wild speculation as to this type or that type of commodity which heretofore has been imported and which should be produced at home, but here we have a commodity capable of being produced at home which at once benefits the land, benefits agricultural employment and benefits urban employment, and I believe here is a field in which the fertiliser manufacturers themselves should explore, and if they do not, they should be told firmly that unless they can do it some other means will have to be found and that since we can do the job ourselves there is no point in further depending on imports for these essentials. That is another aspect of increased employment being made available as a result of wise and long-term planning.

Housing has been referred to so often as being of the highest importance in absorbing labour that I could not pass at this stage without commenting on the position as it exists in my own constituency. Next to Dublin, in fact in some cases I am often inclined to think ahead of Dublin Cork's housing problem is the most serious, and realising the position all Parties represented on the Cork Corporation approached the Minister recently or at least some months ago and put the position seriously before him. There are in the neighbourhood of 4,000 odd families in Cork urgently needing housing accommodation and our output is only in the neighbourhood of 300 houses a year. The Minister, I must say in common with his two predecessors, indicated very forcibly that money was to be no obstacle whatever in the advancement of that housing programme whether it be city or rural, and as a result of that assurance it has been found possible now in Cork to plan ahead with more and more housing schemes. We have in one area a scheme of 366 houses, for 134 of which tenders have been invited aud have been submitted and I am sure in a very short time contracts wili be placed. At the present time there are 150 of these in progress. Extra staff has been recruited in the technical offices of the corporation, and our ultimate programme, our target, is 400 houses per year. That,in itself, is another means whereby the unemployment problem in Cork at any rate is being faced up to.

I do not have to dwell on other aspects of building programmes in Cork. We all know that several churches are planned, but I do not think it would be fair for me to go into it in any detail in this House because another authority is responsible ultimately for it; but, nevertheless, it can be readily seen that there is going to be another high absorption of unemployed skilled and unskilled labour in the immediate neighbourhood of Cork in the very near future.

Coming back again to works shared by the central and local authorities, a new school of music is planned and about to start in the present year in Cork City.

Who is going to pay for that tune?

Mr. Lynch

It is good productive work, anyway, and it makes us happy. One can hardly pass from employment without commenting on the position in the textile industry. It affects Cork possibly more than many other places in the country, as in the city and in the immediate and remotely surrounding areas there are many textile factories of one kind or another. Two years ago we knew the serious position that existed in many of those industries. There was a general recession in the textile trade. The public, not only here in Ireland but throughout the entire world, were reluctant to bus textile goods. As well as that, you had the stockpiling that had taken place in the preceding 12 months. Much of that stockpiling was prudent, but I must comment seriously that the imports of textiles had all the appearance of a panic-stricken campaign. Much of the stuff imported not only was capable of being manufactured here but was not needed in the country.

The fact that it remained on the shelves of many of the retailers and wholesalers throughout the country was sufficient proof of that. Nevertheless the remedial measures that were taken by the Government and theTánaiste immediately on assuming office, brought back those textile workers who were completely out of work, working half-time or quarter-time, in and around Cork City, in places like Blarney, Midleton, Youghal and Dripsey, but all those workers were gradually restored to their jobs and more work was provided in most of those factories for other workers. As a result, most of the factories are now working two or three shifts and in almost every case their output to meet the current demand is almost six months behind time. That is not a desirable situation, either, but it is better that the workers should be working at full stretch to meet increased demands rather than be put on three-quarter time, half-time or quarter-time and ultimately get no time at all. The remarks I make regarding Cork can be applied generally throughout most of the other industrial areas.

With regard to the non-industrial areas, there has been adverse criticism, but the fact is that plans are being prepared or are in existence and no worthwhile work can go ahead without these plans. In regard to the rural areas, particularly in the West, there are plans for the provision of six major fishery harbours. There are plans—I am sure Deputy O'Donnell will again interject: "When?"—for the Clady hydro-electric scheme.

An excellent idea.

Mr. Lynch

There are plans for four small turf generating stations, for an electricity generating station based at Arigna, for a station based at Lanesboro' in Longford. No one can suggest that these works can be started overnight, but as long as we are assured that the technical surveys and examinations are taking place, those who are depending on these project either for work or for amenities can he assured that both work and amenities will be provided at the earliest possible moment.

Therefore, apart altogether from immediate works that must be put in hands, there is the assurance that as long as the policy now being pursued is followed, plans for the utilisation of our natural resources for the economic,industrial and agricultural development of our country will go ahead. There will be no deviation from that policy as long as this Party has any say in government.

There have been many opportunities here, particularly in the last six months, to discuss the Government's financial policy and it has been discussed inside out, starting with the original Vote on Account and continuing through the Budget, the Finance Bill and the vote of confidence to this debate. Even at various stages of the prolonged debate on the Health Bill, Fine Gael in particular have seized every opportunity to cash in on the difficult situation which has persisted and which was largely of their own making. They have blamed the Government for introducing a Health Bill that nobody wants, but if they were close to the people for whose benefit primarily this Health Bill has been introduced, they would realise that the health provisions in force at present are by no means adequate. I am not casting any reflection on the efficiency of the out-patients' departments of many of our big hospitals, but it is not a very pleasant thing to see queues of poor people sitting on benches placed on cold terrazzo floors, even in winter, waiting for outpatients' treatment. You find that one visiting surgeon or physician, assisted by a few students from a medical school, has to deal with all these people. I do not have to tell any Deputy Who may be a member of a hospital board of the position that arises almost daily in centres of large population, where they are approached by relatives of very sick people, imploring them to use what influence they can bring to bear on the hospital authorities to provide a bed for that sick relative.

The Health Bill will not give them any more.

Mr. Lynch

Our health policy, allied to that Health Bill, is designed to ease that situation. More hospitals are being built, more hospitals are being planned, and the situation will soon be reached, please God, when any personwho needs a hospital bed badly will not be denied it for one hour longer than necessary.

We would all like to see that situation.

Mr. Lynch

The Health Bill has been debated here on and off since last March or early April. As long as the Opposition continue the tactics they indulged in, in trying to delay the passage of that Bill, so long will our people be denied the hospital and health treatment they require.

Nonsense. Might I inquire, as the Parliamentary Secretary has taken that line, whether this Vote includes anything for Health? It is the one Department for which nothing is included.

Mr. Lynch

As far as I know, there is a rather big provision.

It is the only thing for which nothing was provided.

That is because full provision was made on the last Vote on Account. This is for the general conduct of the public services.

Mr. Lynch

If Fine Gael can comment on the general outlook of the economic position at almost every stage of the Health Bill, it is hardly irrelevant for me to comment very briefly on the Health Bill on this Vote on Account. Last night we witnessed what I hope will not occur too often in this House: we witnessed attempts by the Opposition to shout down a statement which was being made by the Taoiseach. I have in mind in particular younger members of the Fine Gael Party deliberately trying to misrepresent the Taoiseach in the course of his statement and deliberately trying to lead him off the line of debate which he had chosen for himself. I hope that, so long as I am a young member of this House, if I happen to be on the Opposition side I shall never address a Taoiseach in a manner similar to that in which some Deputies on the Opposition addressed the Taoiseach last night. Apart altogether from blaming the Government for holding on to office, theseyoung members of Fine Gael, and older members also, know that the situation is now about to change for the better. Their disappointment is that they cannot get into office and ride once more on the ship of State that has been guided into calm waters, with full steam ahead.

Deputy Seán Collins commented last night on the vigorous approach to the problems in hand which was displayed by the Taoiseach last night. That vigorous approach displayed by the Taoiseach is indicative of the Government's vigorous approach to meet that situation in the immediate months ahead. I appeal to speakers who may follow me, and whose intention it will be to criticise the Government, to try to be constructive in their criticism and to suggest what they, in similar circumstances, would do in face of the existing situation. Do they propose to increase the social benefits? Do they propose to restore subsidies? If they do, in what way are they going to provide for these increased benefits and the restoration of the subsidies which have been reduced? I think these are pertinent questions and ones which they should be in a position to answer.

In conclusion, I would say to the Opposition Parties and to the people of the country that the Fianna Fáil Party is not the type of Party which the Opposition are trying to make out that it is. Fianna Fáil are not taking a fiendish delight—as the Opposition try to allege—in creating hardships for the people. The members of this Government fought too hard, before they ever assumed office, in the interests of our people, to do such a thing. As members of the Government, they toiled hard and effectively in the interests of our people. Surely, it cannot be suggested now that, after three and a half years of Opposition, they return to office with no other motive or objective than to impose hardships on the people from whence most of them sprang? Man for man the people on this side of the House had to combat hardship during the course of their lives to a greater degree than the people on the opposite side. They had to fight harder fortheir existence and, man for man, they fought harder and more effectively for the freedom of the country. Therefore, it is ludicrous and sheer misrepresentation to suggest that, if hardships were imposed, it was done merely to penalise the people. What has been done was done by men who have served the people long and faithfully, who have worked hard and effectively in their interests and who intend to continue that work. So long as the Government follow the lines they are now pursuing to restore financial stability and balance to the country, to ensure that moneys expended on capital works will show a return in the future and that so-called "capital works" are not merely bolstered-up relief schemes—so long as that policy is continued and the Government get a chance to show the fruits of that policy—the people will realise more and more that their best interests are being looked after by the Government.

I think everyone here recognises that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government is an honest and intelligent member of the House. However, having listened to the attempt he has made to apologise for the inactivity of the Government in relation to the major economic problems that face the country at the present time, one is forced to conclude —because of his record of honesty and ability—that he has very little material with which to indicate any promise for the unemployed men in the future.

One of Deputy Lynch's statements was to the effect that since Fianna Fáil came into power in 1932 they did better than the Cumann na nGaedheal Government did prior to that. He said that Fianna Fáil's agricultural policy was better than that of the Cumann na nGaedheal Government and that Fianna Fáil's industrial policy was so good that, even if the agricultural policy were bad, the industrial policy counterbalanced it.

The Labour Party have very little interest in whether or not Fine Gael's record is better than that of Fianna Fáil, or vice versa. Our interest is in how the country is to progress in the future. I desire to take advantage of this debate to draw attention to theserious position which many of our people—in particular, working people-find themselves faced with. Members of the Government and Deputies of this House are about to go on a prolonged holiday without any definite plans having been announced for the improvement of that serious position.

It cannot be denied that, in the past two years, prices have sky-rocketed. The prices of essential commodities such as bread, butter, tea and sugar, in addition to other foodstuffs, have increased considerably. So much have they increased that, I suggest, these commodities are almost beyond the purchasing power of the normal working man. If he is to secure sufficient for himself and his family to eat, then he must certainly go without some other necessity.

It is well known to many of us that in certain small shops throughout the country the sale of butter has fallen considerably while the sale of margarine has doubled. It is not from choice but dire necessity that a workman's wife will feed to her children not wholesome Irish butter but a poor substitute, and the only reason that is done is that the pries of our butter is beyond the means of the ordinary people.

Unemployment is stalking the land and it reminds me—Fianna Fáil will perhaps take pleasure in this fact—of the days between 1930 and 1942; but again, we in the Labour Party have no interest in the Party or political programme under which unemployment creeps in. Our interest is in seeing that all our people, in so far as is humanly possible, will be able to exercise their God-given right to secure work for themselves and their families. It is not necessary, I suggest, to go to the employment exchange and look up the records to find proof from the returns there of unemployment. Anyone passing by an exchange can see that, in the queues standing outside, and particularly in the cities, there are men and women anxious and available for work to whom work is denied. At the street corners in the small towns, there is unfortunately ample evidence of unemployment,with people parading the streets seeking work which up to now they have failed to secure.

In Dublin City, mass parades of hungry unemployed men and women have become an almost daily feature. I realise that many even in this House will say that these are led by agitators and by people of doubtful character. I am not in a position to dispute such a statement and neither am I in a position to confirm it; but I do know that, unless there were thousands upon thousands of unemployed hungry people, these agitators, if they exist, would find it difficult to persuade well-fed, satisfied employed men to parade in the name of any "ism" or cause through the streets of Dublin. It is only because the evil is there that any "ism" is in a position to exploit it, if exploited it is being, for their own purposes.

Neither do I accept that there are agitators and I regret to say that I have heard it said that at some of these meetings—it has been made a joke of in this House—one of the leaders is supposed to have remarked: "We have not got the crowd to-day, lads, because they are working." That is an implication that this is a frame-up. I remember it being said of our unemployed in 1940 and prior to that year, that they would not work in a fit, but when the bombs fell on England and when work was made available for men at the risk of their lives, our Irish unemployed men and even our women were not afraid to go across to face starvation, bombs and doodle-bugs, so that they could send home to their people who were depending on them the money necessary to keep them alive.

I label it as the same slander on the unemployed to suggest that the men who march the streets to-day are men who have come out of jobs and who are parading for political or any other reasons. I have personally spoken to them; I have addressed them. I am not on such terms of intimacy with the leaders that I can indicate the complete background of any or many of them ; but I am satisfied that 98 per cent. of the unemployed who aremarching and demonstrating in Dublin to-day are doing so to draw attention to their plight and to show that their desire is not to march the streets but to be employed in their own country at a decent wage.

While I say it is not necessary to produce figures to convince anybody who a wishful of seeing things in proper perspective in the matter of unemployment, it is desirable, in making a protest against the evil of unemployment to say that these facts can be gathered from the register of employment in Dublin, and hard facts from Government offices are difficult to disprove. In April, 1953, in the Dublin metropolitan area, there were 20,133 insurable workers unemployed; in April, 1951, in the same area, there were 12,571 insurable workers unemployed. That is an increase in, two years of 7,562 insurable workers, or an increase of 60 per cent.

That percentage of insured workers unemployed in a two years' period does away with the statement that the new benefits caused the unemployment in Dublin, because excluded from these figures are the people in agricultural employment, in fishing and in private domestic service, and it was from these sources that the vast increase came on the register when the new scheme came in. No matter how things are examined in Dublin, from the point of view of observance of the mass demonstrations or examination of the figures available, in the light of our circumstances, it can be clearly shown that unemployment is not only there, but is there to an extent that is alarming and frightening to those of us who have responsibility for examining the position.

The figures of unemployment throughout the land, plus the high cost of living, as I hope to show, have a two-fold effect upon the population. It is but to be expected that where you have the twin evils of unemployment and the high cost of living, their natural ally and support, the evil of emigration, will follow close on their heels.

I understand that this country normally exports between 20,000 and 25,000 people per year. Should the positioncontinue as it is with unemployment growing and with the cost of living ever increasing, is it not clear that the life blood of this country will be drained off within a short period by the added force that will be behind the emigration drive until the time will come when the people leaving this country, plus those dying through natural causes, will offset those being born and the population will begin to decline?

I think it can be fairly stated in this House, without fear of contradiction, that the main cause of price increases over the past two years has been the removal of the food subsidies. That was the deliberate action of the present Government and it was supported by the Independent Deputies who helped that Government. On them must be placed, be it for good or for bad, the consequences of the deliberate action committed by them. If the Government and their Independent followers have increased the price of the most essential of the workman's food—bread, butter, tea and sugar— and if the people have suffered—and I suggest they have suffered grievously— the Government or those Independents who carried out that action must not expect from the people loyalty, love or affection, but their rightful detestation and the promise of the people that, if given the opportunity, they will bring the perpetrators of that deed to justice and to the punishment they deserve.

The cost of living at the present day is 132 per cent. above that of pre-war figures. In ordinary English and in terms that the ordinary people appreciate more, that means that a £ in 1939 would buy as many commodities as 46/5 would buy at the present moment. The effect of that loss in value of money on people such as old age pensioners, widows and orphans and people on fixed incomes, irrespective of whether they receive those incomes from a private employer, investments, pensions secured in a foreign army or elsewhere, is that the purchasing power of those people between 1939 and the present day, unless they were granted increases from the sources where they secured theirincomes, has been reduced by over 50 per cent. Even the ordinary worker who has the good luck to be employed is affected by the reduced purchasing power of the £.

For the past two years prices have increased by 22 per cent. but wages, even after the fourth increase, have lagged far behind and now reach only 9 per cent. The overall effect of the reduction in the purchasing power of the old age pensioners and of the workers has been that he or she has to do with less. A Government case was made at the time of the Budget, when these alterations were effected, that they would give in, the form of increased children's allowances and increased social welfare benefits granted to the poor with one hand that which had been taken from them with the other by the reduction of the subsidies. They also stated that they hoped the workman would, through trade union activity, and the goodness of his employer, be able to secure increased wages that would make up for the increased cost of living. Even had it been true at that time that the old age pensioners and the widows and orphans and those in receipt of social benefits of all kinds got an increase that was equal to the then cost of living, must it not be clear to everyone that, if the cost of living has continuously increased since, without any further adjustments in these benefits, a further grave reduction of spending power must have taken place in their incomes?

Deputy ffrench-O'Carroll, speaking, I think, on the Budget, expressed the view that he had hoped the increase in wages would take up the slack in the increased cost of living for the workers. He expressed grave doubts that that had happened over the past two years. I would whole-heartedly agree with Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll. That did not happen, and I suggest it could not happen. If we examine what really happens when the index figure increases, and if we examine its effect on the ordinary trade unionist we can see that it could never happen that wage increaseswould catch up with the increase in the cost of living. A new index figure is got every three months. That has to be published, examined and claims for wages framed. These claims have to be lodged and negotiated. Very often there are protracted negotiations lasting six months. Agreements are finally reached which give the worker something better than he has but not the whole of what he looked for.

With the time factor of the delay in the negotiations, plus the fact that the worker did not secure the full amount of what he was looking for, on each occasion when the index figure is published and shows an increase, the employed worker is some little bit worse off until he finds it practically impossible to keep himself or his family without gradually eating into any savings that may be there or going deeper and deeper into debt.

It may be said to me: what can the Government do in regard to price control, or what can the Government do in regard to the cost of living? There are factors outside the control of the Government that have a part in prices and because of that the Government may claim that they have no responsibility. I would suggest that, by the deliberate action of the Government itself, it broke down the control established, at the request of Deputy Norton in the last year of the inter-Party Government, over a whole range of commodities in this country, and while it kept up the appearance of keeping in force the Prices Advisory Body, by non-reference to that body of certain important applications for price increases, it permitted in a deliberate manner private enterprise to satisfy itself as to the prices at which they would sell their goods. I am aware that the Tánaiste has expressed the belief and hope that private competition would fix a ceiling and eventually a reduction, if left to itself, but I am afraid that the Tánaiste has forgotten the fact that the employers have now learned that organisation pays dividends, and by their rings and combinations they see to it that their prices will not only be fair but generous.

The effect of the high cost of living and reduced purchasing power of ordinary consumers in this country has had a terrific effect on employment content. It is a well-known fact that three-quarters of the money spent each year in this country—and for goods mainly to make up employment content in the country—is personal consumption buying. In 1951, £360,000,000 out of a total of £483,000,000 was personal consumption buying. That is practically three-quarters. The effect of a reduced figure for personal consumption buying will naturally mean reduced trade for the traders. This in effect will go on to the factories and right on to the source of production leaving in its trail unemployed men and women. The vicious circle will continue and the falling-off of employment of those thousands of men and women will in itself add to the depression and, if permitted, as apparently it is going to be permitted, we will have nothing to face but economic ruin, unemployed men with no solution but the emigrant ship.

In May, 1953, 76,200 unemployed men and women, boys and girls, were in this country. I suggest that at the very lowest you could double that figure because of the fact that on each of those unemployed to some greater or lesser extent, depends either a wife, a child, a brother, or sister or some other relative. Last week the figure was 62,400. Unemployment is dropping, but let us not get any false opinions from that fact. It is a well-known fact that January each year is the peak period of unemployment, and that the valley period is July. That has been so over the last 20 years. It is a seasonal change. If the indications give any clue as to the events that are to come, we have very little to look forward to from the month of August up to next January.

The winter period when more food is necessary, better clothing is necessary and more heating, will, if things follow the usual trend, mean that more unemployment is to come until we reach again the peak in the bitter month of January next. And all this time this House proposes to go on holidays. Aswell as the seasonal drop in the valley period being reached at the present moment there is the fact that the second Employment Period Order is in being. Were it not for that, and were it the month of January, I would suggest that the indications are there and clearly there of the highest record figure of unemployment unless something drastic is done by the Government. There are certain indications that not only are we not providing employment, but that certain major industries of this country carrying the highest labour content are on the verge of wholesale dismissals of workers. Should that happen, added to the present unemployment position, it will be a miracle if the workers of this country do not in their anger and in their bafflement forget there is local government and endeavour to force from us what it is our duty to provide for them by good government.

I suggest to this Government that there is an emergency on at the present moment just as serious and just as dangerous for this country as during the 1940-1945 period. At that time almost overnight we had built up an army. We had put into operation the darkening of lights, the obliteration of street signs and cross-road indications. Everything was treated as if we were on a war footing. Is there anything wrong with having the same attitude now when over 100,000 people in this country are starved for want of the necessities of life, because they cannot secure work in the country. I appeal to the Government to give to every local authority complete autonomy, to go ahead with any of the schemes they have planned without requiring sanction from the Department of Local Government. Give them that autonomy for a period of 12 months. I can assure the Government, from my knowledge of local authorities, that they will not squander either Government or local authority money; that they will put into operation emergency schemes carrying big labour content that will be of some use to every local authority and will absorb the majority of unemployed people in the rural area.

How the matter can be dealt with in Dublin and the bigger cities I am notin a position to advise, but I am quite satisfied that if that autonomy, that automatic sanction for large schemes is given by the Minister for Local Government and if his partner, the Minister for Health, will co-operate, within a month, instead of seeing queues at the labour exchange, you will see returning from work happy and contented workmen.

I am not going to delay the House at any great length. I feel that the matters discussed over the last few days here have been amply discussed in debates over the last couple of years and that we might have hoped to get from this discussion what we have not got for the last couple of years from the Government —a statement of how they propose to ensure that the standard of living of our people is improved, a clear statement of policy of how they propose, in particular, to deal with the urgent situation in regard to unemployment and the cost of living which is now facing this country. Instead of that, we have been entertained by Government speakers and their supporters with the sort of speeches which would be quite simple now for anybody, who has taken any notice of what has been happening in the Dáil or in the country for the last two years, to prepare beforehand. We have heard the old themes trotted out. We have heard a discussion of how the inter-Party Government are to blame for what is occurring at the present time. We have heard statements of how the inter-Party Government had dissipated our external assets, how they had brought this State to the verge of bankruptcy, how they had dissipated the Marshall Aid funds and how the present Government had put finances of the State in order. We have heard all these things in the last few weeks from the Government Benches and the benches supporting them, but we have not heard any concrete statement of policy from them as to how they are going to remedy the situation, the very serious and critical situation, which the country is now facing.

Recently, however, a new theme has been struck by Government spokesmen. We are now being informed bythe Government, in the words of the Minister for Finance in the Seanad last week, that this country, far from being in a parlous condition, is very much on the upgrade. The Government are now making the case, and their supporters are taking up the tune, that things are looking better and that all we have got to do is to wait and see and the proofs of Government policy will soon be evident. We heard the Taoiseach last night and on the vote of confidence the week before, waxing indignant at the idea that his Party had no policy. I want to say that with some of the things the Taoiseach said yesterday, and earlier on the vote of confidence motion, I do not think there is one person in this House would disagree but I say further that what he said yesterday and earlier on the vote of confidence was not policy. Who is going to disagree with any man when he says that he is in favour of increasing industrial production? Who is going to disagree with any body who says he is in favour of utilising the resources of the State to the maximum? Who is going to disagree with anybody who says that he is in favour of keeping the cost of living figure at the lowest possible level? But that is not policy. These are merely pious aspirations. They are agreed ends which we would all like to achieve but what we want to hear from the Government and from the Minister when he is replying to-day, is how they are going to achieve these ends. Let the Minister for Finance tell the people who are unemployed, who are marching the streets of Dublin to-day, how they are going to get work. Let him tell the harassed housewife how they are going to bring down the cost of living. Let him tell the business community how they are going to increase industrial production.

I do not make any excuse for reiterating what has been said here before or for bringing to the notice of the Government the serious situation in regard to unemployment and the cost of living which obtains in this State at present. Before doing so, however, I wish to make a few remarks on some of the figures which the Minister forFinance gave to justify his statement that things are now very much on the upgrade. The Minister in a letter to the papers recently, and also in the Seanad last week, gave figures which he regarded as evidence that things were getting better, that people were beginning to spend more and that the country was now very much on the upgrade. The figures which he gave were the figures of expenditure in the first three months of this year as compared with the figures for the same period last year on beer, spirits and tobacco. What I want to give to the House is not the figures for expenditure on these items, because everybody knows that the cost of these items has increased very much over the last 18 months; the figures I want to give are the figures showing the actual consumption of these items which in my opinion are a better guide as to what the people are consuming and the ability of the people to spend. The figures for beer retained for home consumption show that in the first three months of 1952 there were 204.99 thousand standard barrels retained for home consumption. For the first three months of this year that figure was reduced to 175.70 thousand barrels. These figures are a clear indication that during these three months consumption had been drastically reduced.

Similar figures are available for potable spirits retained for home consumption. For the first three months of last year the figure was 235.82 thousand proof gallons, and for the first three months of this year the figure was 173.81 thousand proof gallons. The figures in respect to manufactured tobacco released for home production also show a reduction. For the first three months of 1952, there were 4,043,000 lb. of manufactured tobacco released for home consumption. The figure for the first three months of this year showed that there were 3,344,000 lb. released for home consumption. The reason why I am delaying the house by giving these figures——

The Deputy should be a little bit more up to date. He is just three months behind the times.

The Minister has, I presume, figures that are more recent and I will be very glad if he will give those figures. I will wait with eagerness for the Minister to give the consumption of these items. I want to make it clear that if there was an improvement in the economy of this country, if things were getting better, if the cost of living was remaining static or coming down, if unemployment was being reduced and production was going up, nobody would be more pleased than members on this side of the House.

Our case is that this Government has carried on now for two years. We have had economic conditions which, we all admit, have deteriorated in that time. The Government says now that things are getting better; that we have only to wait and see and there will be an improvement in the situation. If that were true, we would be only too glad, but unfortunately it is not true and the figures which the Minister gives to demonstrate his case and to prove his case—the evidence which he adduces for that purpose is evidence which only proves expenditure on the items he has quoted and not the actual consumption.

The cost of living makes interesting reading. The cost of living in May, 1951, was 109. It went up in May, 1952, to 115, before the Budget. It went up in August, 1952 to 122, the result of the Budget. It went up in February of this year to 123; and it went up again in May to 126. Various excuses have been given by Government spokesmen. One excuse was the Korean war. One excuse was the fact that import prices, which affect the cost structure of this State, had gone up and we were suffering as a result of that. It was also said that we were suffering from conditions which obtained in other European countries.

I would like now to quote what the Minister for Industry and Commerce said last December at column 888 of Volume 135 of the Official Report:—

"I think it is true to say that only internal factors are causing prices to go up now."

That was in December of last year,about eight or nine months ago. Since then he has admitted that internal factors are to blame for the rise in the cost of living and those internal factors are under the control of the Government. It is not import price. It is not the backwash of the Korean war that is now causing our prices to go up. It is internal factors of which the Government has control.

The figures for the import price index make very interesting reading. Import prices reached their maximum in September, 1951, when they stood at 324.1. Since September, 1951, Which is about 20 months ago, they have been going down steadily every month and in December, 1952, they stood at 290.8, a decline of 33.3. All through last year import prices were going down but, despite that fact, the cost of living was going up.

I do not think it is irrelevant in view of the charges that we are making against the Government, of their failure to implement their promise and their policy to maintain an effective system of price control—I will leave out, for the moment, their promise to maintain the subsidies—to quote the figures which were recently made available demonstrating similar experiences in European countries between 1951 and the present time. Remember, the Korean war has been blamed for the rise in the cost of living here, but other European countries were just as much affected by that war as we were.

I would ask Deputies who are interested in these matters to study the figures given in The Economistof last week. In the statistical supplement to that they will see what happened to the cost of living in other European countries during the period that the Fianna Fáil Government was in power here. There were two countries in Europe which had since 1951 a greater increase in the cost of living than we had. One of them was Austria and the other was France and the French cost of living went up by one point more than did our cost of living. Perhaps Belgium provides a better analogy than France. Belgium was able to keep its cost of living stablefrom 1951 to the present time. In Denmark, where there is again a close analogy with this country, the cost of living went up by four points since 1951. In Germany, which was devastated by the war, the cost of living has remained stable since 1951. In Italy, another country which suffered very adversely from the war, the cost of living has gone up by only seven points since 1951. In the Netherlands it has remained static since 1951. The other figures are available. They will show that the cost of living went up in other European countries but, with the two exceptions I have mentioned, Austria and France, in no other country in Europe did the cost of living go up to such an extent as it went up here within the last two years.

Give us the wage increases.

The wage figures are available if the Deputy likes to see them.

They are not a quarter of what they are here. I was in Germany and I know what they are.

What about France?

I do not think the Deputies understand the figures I am giving.

The Deputy does not understand them either.

The figures. I am giving are relative figures. If the cost of living in Ireland was 101 in 1951 and if it is 126 in May of this year it has gone up by 15 points and, relative to the Irish consumer and the Irish wage earner, goods are now costing him 15 per cent. more.

And his wages have gone up.

I shall deal with wages when they arise. At the moment I am dealing with the cost of living. Deputies on the Government benches made the excuse that the cost of living had gone up here because of the impact of the Korean war. In May of 1951the cost of living was 109. In May of this year it was 126. It went up by 15 points. The cost-of-living figures in these other countries, irrespective of the level of wages, remained static in spite of the Korean war. The cost of living in Denmark, in spite of the Korean war, went up by only four points. The cost of living in the Netherlands remained static in spite of the Korean war. I am not denying for a moment that there have been wage increases to compensate for the increase in the cost of living. Indeed, I think it would be a terrible thing if there had not been such increases. In other countries where the cost of living went up there were also wage increases to compensate.

Quote the wage increases.

The Government is making the case that the cost of living went up because of the impact of the Korean war.

Your stockpiling had something to do with it, too.

The Taoiseach on the vote of confidence, the Minister for Finance and his colleagues said that we were only to blame for an increase of seven points in the cost of living—the cut in the food subsidies; the rest of the increases were due to forces outside our control. The evidence I am giving—Deputies can check it if they wish—is that in no other country in Europe, with the two exceptions I have quoted, was there a similar experience. I hold that is a very strange thing indeed.

The subsidies came off a year before in Denmark and there was a big rise in the cost of living as a result of that in 1951.

Between 1951 and this year the cost of living has gone up here by 15 points. Between 1951 and this year the cost of living in Denmark has gone up by four points.

And it rose ten pointsthe year before when the subsidies came off.

The reason the Government has endeavoured to advance for the fact that this country is suffering from such an appallingly high cost of living is the Korean war. The evidence I have given is eloquent of the fact that other countries were able to take effective measures of price control to stop the rise in the cost of living, whereas this Government failed. I do not know what excuse the Government are prepared to give for the unemployment situation at the present time. I do not think the people have accepted the excuse that stockpiling is to blame for the fact that, two years after the alleged stockpiling took place, there are 22,000 more people unemployed. It is quite evident to anybody who is willing io face facts in a realistic fashion that there has been a serious depression of trade and that we are, in fact, experiencing a serious slump. People are not buying. Factories are not producing. Imports have been reduced.

The Deputy, I am perfectly certain in all innocence, is just making statements which are not true.

I would like the Minister to explain to me why industrial production in the June quarter of 1951 stood at 181.8 and why industrial production for the December quarter of 1952 stood at 170.7—a reduction of ten points.

There is a great difference between June and December. Perhaps the Deputy's knowledge of industrial conditions does not go that far.

Is the Minister alleging that industrial production has increased?

Yes, industrial production has increased in the first quarter of this year compared with the first quarter of last year.

And it is still below the June figure.

And it is still going up.

It is still below the June figure. The Minister cannot deny that. I do not understand what the excuse of the Government is, whether it is that things are not as bad as we say they are. They cannot get over the fact that industrial production is less than it was in the June quarter of 1951.

It depends on what you call industrial production.

I call it what the Trade Journalcalls industrial production. The Minister can take his figures from theTrade Journaland I will take my figures from theTrade Journal.

The creation of real wealth in this country is greater than it was in 1951.

I am dealing with industrial production, and I would ask the Minister to deal with it. The facts are absolutely self-evident that industrial production has gone down and they are now making a valiant effort to say that, because it has increased, things are a bit better, ignoring the fact that, industrial production is below what it was in 1951, two years ago.

I do not believe that there was any valid reason for the expansion experienced up to 1951 to have been halted. I do not believe there was any reason why the increased employment in industrial employment which we had experienced for the three years of the inter-Party Government should not have gone on further. I do not believe that there was any reason why we could not have reduced still further the level of unemployed. I see no reason why industrial production should not have expanded beyond its peak figure of June, 1951, or why it should be up several more points now, two years later.

I believe the Government took a fundamentally wrong view of the economic situation. I believe that, no matter what excuses they make now, no matter what speeches they make now, the result of taking that wrong view of the economic situation and the natural consequences of it were thatwe have the trade recession and slump Which we are now experiencing. The wrong view which the Government took was that they regarded it as vitally necessary that immediate action be taken to remedy our balance of international payments. I would like Deputies to read and re-read the speech of the minister for Finance introducing his Budget last year, because in that speech is contained the Fianna Fáil present policy. It is not in what they say they would like to be doing. Largely from the economic policy enshrined in that Budget of last year have flowed the economic ills that we are suffering from. Deputies who read it will see studded throughout that Budget speech statements that we are consuming too much, that we must spend less, that we must consume less. That was the economic policy which the Government followed. The Government set itself the task last year of righting the deficit in the balance of payments by reducing home consumption, and they have been successful. They have reduced the deficit in the balance of payments to £9,000,000 at the expense of raising our holdings of sterling assets. Is the Minister denying that our sterling assets have increased?

I saw a question mark in the Minister's attitude. Our sterling assets increased last year as a result of the fact that the deficit in our balance of payments was only £9,000,000, and as a result of the policy of reducing consumption at home. Let it be admitted that the deficit in the balance of payments was reduced to £9,000,000 and that, to achieve that end, the Government reduced consumption at home with the attendant consequences on employment and prodnction, also, let it be added, by raising the cost of living by reducing food subsidies.

That has been the economic policy of the Government for the last two years. There has been no change in that policy in the last Budget. Our complaint of this Government is that that was the policy they put into operation. If they believed it was a right policy,they should have put it into operation, but we believed it was the wrong one. We believed that the balance of payments did not require the drastic treatment that the Government employed. We believed—as the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government, Deputy Lynch, has said here earlier this morning—that import prices would come down, that exports would expand and that there were automatic factors in the situation which would remedy it without the drastic steps that the Government took. They adopted that policy they took those steps last year and that is the policy which is still an operation. The Budget of this year has made no change.

I would like to sea this Government, for whatever length of time it will remain in office, changing that economic policy. I believe it was fundamentally wrong. I believe that what was right for Britain in 1951 under their British Minister of Finance was not right for Ireland in 1951. I believe that we should be having this year what the British Chancellor of the Exchequer gave the British this year, namely, a reversal of the deflationary Budget of last year. We have not got any such reversal. We have the same Budget, we have the same policy. Until we have a reversal of that policy, until we have an acceptance of the fact that what this country needs is an injection of purchasing power and the ability of the consumer to spend more the economic situation cannot be improved. What this country needs greater stimulus to demand for all types of goods. Until we have an acceptance of that point of view we will not have any change in the economic situation. This city is seeing what it has never seen since the foundation of this State, mass unemployed marching to Dáil Éireann.

Young men who should join the Army.

Have you not got 5,000?

We saw them here in 1931.

Is the ParliamentarySecretary suggesting that those people who are umemployed in the City of Dublin should be in the Army?

That is very interesting. I hope that due publicity will be given to that fact——

I hope so.

—— that the Parliamentary Secretary believes that the unemployed in the City of Dublin should be conscripted into the Army.

No. I never said "conscripted".

What then—that they should go in voluntarily?

Voluntarily, instead of going into the English army.

I regard this as very fundamental.

It now seems clear that the Government regard it as desirable that the unemployed persons here should go into the Army. So that is their solution.

I am speaking for myself, and I am not afraid to say it in Dublin or elsewhere.

Not for the Government, then?

They can go to Bord na Móna. It has 300 vacancies in my constituency at £7 a week.

It is not the Army then?

Both the Army and Bord na Móna. I am not ashamed of the Irish Army as you are.

I am asking them to go into the Irish Army.

I want to say that I regard it is an obligation and aduty on the part of the Government not to say, when we have a critical unemployment situation, that the unemployed should go into the Army.

The Parliamentary Secretary speaks for himself only. He does not speak for me when he makes that statement.

I said that I was speaking for myself.

There is not agreement on that side of the House then.

I take it then that there is one sensible man on the Fianna Fáil Benches who repudiates the idea of the parliamentary Secretary that the unemployed should be made or, if not made, pushed quietly through economic circumstances into the Army. I want to say that I repudiate that idea. It is an abnegation of the duty of a Government, when there is a critical unemployment situation, to suggest that the unemployed should go into the Army. The Government of this country, like the Government of every other country, has a duty to provide full employment.

Will they get selective work?

No man should be forced to go into the Army if he does not want to.

In England, they go where they are sent, and they cannot be selective.

Mr. Carter rose.

If this is not a point of order I refuse to give way.

On a point of information.

I refuse to give way. I am entitled to go on with my speech. I think that this discussion, even if it has become somewhat ragged, has been very useful all the same. It has brought out now what the Government, or at any rate the Parliamentary Secretary, wants. I do not know if the Minister himself willrepeat what he thinks should be done with the unemployed in the City of Dublin.

I want to say, in conclusion, that I think the Government should be judged on its results, on the results of the index of industrial production, the index of agricultural production, the index of employment, and on the cost-of living index. Let the Government be judged by these figures. We were prepared to be judged by them when we were in office and I see no reason why the present Government should not be judged by them also. We are judging the present Government by these results. We are judging them by measuring up their results against those figures, and we have found them sadly wanting.

I am against what has been going on in this House in the last couple of days. It went on before in this House —that is, going back to what happened before the war, going back to what happened, perhaps, before many of the thousands of people who are unemployed at the present time were born, going back to the days of the civil war, going back to the days of the Treaty in 1922, and to the days of the economic war. I am against going back to all that for this reason, not because I am afraid of dealing with these things but because I believe that this is not the place to deal with them. Let the historians deal with them. Have a debate on them which might interest the populace but not in this deliberative Assembly, where there are so many important economic factors to be dealt with. Who was right or wrong in 1922 is no longer of any relevance to the people who are now unemployed in the City of Dublin.

Let the Government tell us what is their economic policy. Do not let the Government tell us that they are in favour of increasing production, that they are in favour of industrial expansion, that they are in favour of agricultural production and that they are in favour of getting the cost of living down. That is not policy. All of us are agreed on these aims, but let them tell us how they are going to bring these desirable aims about. If they have no way of doing that, and if wehave a way of doing it, then tell the people and let the people decide. Let the people decide whether they think, in view of what is happening, they can trust the Government. In view of the last three by-elections, I think there can be no doubt as to what the answer would be.

I did not intend to intervene in this debate because I feel, like many other Deputies, that it is a repetition and a rehearsal of what I have been listening to, if not for the last two years, perhaps for 21 years, as far as our position is concerned.

Hear, hear!

I have intervened in this debate to refute most emphatically and with all the vehemence I command a statement that was made here, not by a greenhorn Deputy or by an inexperienced person but by an ex-Minister in the Coalition Government, Deputy Blowick, when he referred to the Corrib scheme. I am quoting from yesterday's Irish Press.This is the quotation:—

"He said the Government had deteriorated into a state of bungling and mismanagement that had brought distress to the country.

In that day's issue of the Irish Pressthey had a big heading: ‘£2,000,000 Drainage Plan—Western Counties Will Benefit’. That scheme was ordered by Deputy Donnellan, when he was Parliamentary Secretary, in May, 1948. A month after the inter-Party Government went out of office, the Corrib drainage scheme was to start and the machinery had been ordered down there. But when Fianna Fáil came into office they cancelled the scheme.”

Now, I know that if I used a certain word that would be the most applicable and appropriate word in refutation of that statement, the Chair would call me to order. But I say that it was a deliberate untruth on the part of Deputy Blowick who should know far better, particularly as he had been a Minister in a Government forthree and a half years. I will give the facts about the Corrib here and now.

The expression "deliberate untruth", is still not in order.

I bow to your ruling. It is misrepresentation and also a very incorrect statement. I know quite well, and I am ready to admit, as I have done everywhere, that Deputy Donnellan did insist on having the Corrib survey started in 1948. But, when Deputy Blowick comes along and states in this House that the Fianna Fáil Government in 1951 clamped down on that scheme and that if the Coalition Government had been in office, operations on that scheme would have started one month later, I say that Deputy Donncllan as well as I and also Deputy Blowick, have got to take advice from people who are capable of giving it, and the people capable of giving it in the Office of Public Works are the engineers, particularly the chief engineer, Mr. Candy, and at no stage did the chief engineer advise Deputy Donnellan that the Corrib scheme could start in 1951.

On a point of order. May we now cite by name an official of a Department to develop a statement made by one of us in the House? The Parliamentary Secretary has established a precedent.

It is not usual to name officials.

The official is very well known. Perhaps I should not have mentioned his name, but even if I only mentioned the chief engineer, anybody interested would know quite well who he was. Consequently, the mentioning of his name does not very much matter in my opinion.

The point of order is that it is not customary to mention a civil servant by name or appointment. If it is sauce for the goose it will be sauce for the gander.

I do not think there is anything wrong in mentioning the name because I am very proud of theman whose name I have mentioned and I am sure if Deputy Donnellan were here that he would say he was proud of him, because he has a worldwide experience of dealing with problems of this kind.

That is not what you said.

I will not be talked down by misrepresentation anywhere. My word is as good in Galway, Mayo or Roscommon as Deputy Blowick's or anybody else's.

You delayed the Corrib scheme for two years.

I certainly did not. That is a most incorrect statement.

It is not.

I challenge Deputy Blowick to have an inquiry into it, which I will give him, and produce evidence to show that there was no such thing.

Why did not the work start in autumn, 1951? Because the Fianna Fáil Government stopped it.

Deputy Blowick is now trying to plead innocence. He is not such an innocent man at all.

I am giving the facts.

You are not giving the facts.

The Parliamentary Secretary had no right to allow himself to be dictated to by the Government in that regard.

The Government did not dictate to me in that regard. If Deputy Blowick will come over to the Office of Public Works and meet the engineering staff there they will explain to him the complications with regard to that scheme.

I know that. I suppose since Fianna Fáil got into power water has started to flow uphill.

What is wrong with theOpposition, particuarly Fine Gael, Clann na Talmhan and one of the tandem Clann na Poblachta Party is that they do not want to hear the truth.

Tell us about the Corrib?

Order, order! The Parliamentary Secretary is in possession.

What about the biscuit factory in North Mayo?

We will reply about that, too, but I do not think it is relevant to this debate.

The biscuit factory.

The survey was commenced in May, 1948. It was concluded in December, 1951. The survey was not a simple matter considering the vast extent of the Corrib catchment area, the complications regarding milling and fishery rights and what is commonly known in the country as the swallow hole.

These were all ironed out before you took office.

It is easy to make a statement of that kind. It is easy to come in here and cash in on the Arterial Drainage Act of 1945 which brought benefits to the people of this country who were burdened with the 1925 Drainage Act. (Interruptions.) The riparian owners, who were being burdened with charges owing to the type of schemes carried out under the 1925 Act, were unable to meet them and had to be relieved from the charges placed on them and county-at-large charges brought in instead. We hear Deputy Sweetman from time to time worrying about the farmers in his constituency and in various other constituencies. But when the 1945 Arterial Drainage Bill was going through and when certain concessions were being made to the Barrow drainage rate-payers, Deputy Sweetman, who, was then a Senator, went into the Seanad and proposed an amendment to the Bill whereby he was not prepared to unburden the Barrow drainage rate-payers of what had been inflicted onthem under the Barrow Drainage Act.

As I was saying, the survey commenced in 1948 and the survey proper was completed in December, 1951. But the survey is not everything. There has to be a considerable amount of time spent in properly plotting and designing any drainage scheme of a comprehensive nature. That took a considerable amount of time. You had certain lands within that catchment area not requiring drainage, and you had other areas of land which did require drainage. All these had to be segregated, and the reports of the engineers regarding the level of the main channel and the level of the channels flowing into it had to be taken into consideration and very closely examined and a plan designed. That plan has been designed and the Corrib drainage scheme plan is now on exhibition.

I will tell Deputy Blowick something about what happened between Deputy Donnellan and himself. The intention in the first instance was to have a survey of the Corrib-Clare-Dalgan-Mask catchment area. But that would not be going fast enough for Deputy Donnellan to have a spectacular——

On a point of order. Could not these details about the Corrib scheme be discussed better on the Estimate for the Office of Public Works?

Deputy Blowick raised this matter. You are too cute.

He will not get away with cuteness.

I have raised a point of order.

Deputy Blowick raised a point to which the Parliamentary Secretary is now replying and I take it if Deputy Blowick was in order the Parliamentary Secretary is in order in replying.

General MacEoin is trying to prevent the exposure.

On a point of order. The point I raised about the Corrib drainage scheme was in connectionwith the publication in that day's issue of the Irish Pressof the fact that the Corrib scheme was now reached. As I said, theIrish Pressdid not give the credit for the Corrib scheme where the credit was due. At the same time, of course, they were careful to give credit to the present Government. The Parliamentary Secretary raised this matter in detail without replying to my question.

The Parliamentary Secretary.

Deputy Blowick raised a point of order.

I am quoting from the Press and I am giving the facts in connection with this, and I challenge refutation as far as the facts I have given are concerned. It is all right for Deputy MacEoin to chip in; he thinks he is going to make me lose the trend of my arguments. I have as much knowledge of drainage in this country as Deputy MacEoin, Deputy Donnellan or Deputy Blowick, and I have been as much interested in drainage as anybody else.

Under the Drainage Act of 1945 the Corrib-Clare-Dalgan-Mask catchment area was to be surveyed in the first instance, but it would not bring a return sufficiently spectacular for the Opposition and the Mask section was left out of the survey.

I dare Deputy Blowick to deny that. There was talk about the Corrib being under way but I have never made any foolish, reckless promises to anybody to gain a few paltry votes at election time. I told the people immediately after I took over office in St. Stephen's Green that it would be an optimistic date to state that any operations would even commence in 1953. We have in the Estimate a certain amount of money for proceeding with operations. The scheme is now exhibited. According to statute and according to the Drainage Act of 1945 the county councils of Galway, Mayo and Roscommon have three months in which to make observations. The exhibition was commenced, I think, on the 21st of this month. The peopledirectly concerned through whose land the main Corrib artery runs and also the tributaries leading into it have one month to make their observations.

There is also a provision for certain Departments of State to make their observations as well notably, Agriculture and industry and Commerce. Industry and Commerce comes into it in two ways, both from the point of view of electrification and also as regards Bord na Móna. We hope to have the operations on the Corrib started about February of 1954, and there is no unreasonable or avoidable delay as far as that is concerned. I think that should answer Deputy Blowick.

Put it off for another while.

Anybody who gives this matter a little thought knows that it is a very complex problem. Even the Drainage Commission appointed in 1938 pointed out that it was a complex problem. It is agreed by everybody that to carry out a proper drainage scheme you have to go into very great detail and examine every factor within it. I have people running to me or making appeals to me to receive deputations from them regarding drainage schemes in their areas. I am leaving, as far as possible, the decision as regards priority to the people who are not going to play politics, who have been appointed by statute of this House to undertake the national drainage of this country, and they are the people most capable of judging.

It would be quite easy for me to meet, as they were met by Deputy Donnellan, the people from the Suck catchment area and tell them in the month of February, 1951, that the Suck could he the next for survey after the Corrib had been finished, but three months previously he had gone down to the Mayo County Council and told them that the Moy would be next after the Corrib. I am not going to carry on in that way. I might gain a few paltry votes if I was prepared to do that kind of clodhopping from one part of the country to another, but I amnot going to do it even if I never came into this House as a result of it.

You are an honest man.

I am not going to do that.

Give him a clap.

I do not claim to be any more honest than others but I am giving the honest facts regarding the whole business. It is outlandish for Deputy Blowick to make that bald statement that we had held up the scheme and that if the inter-Party group had been in power that scheme would have been started in June, 1951. It would be started, I suppose, like the Feale in Kerry was started, when it was started actually six months before it should start as a result of pressure, in order to be put in the election propaganda in May of 1951. I know what I am talking about.

It started before it should start?

That is the best, yet.

As I said, I did not propose to intervene at all were it not for those very incorrect statements. I could describe it in a much smaller word, a word of three letters, were it not against parliamentary procedure. It was interesting to listen to some of the Opposition speakers, particularly Deputy McGilligan, who is an experienced member of this House, when he took us back 21 years to 1932. He told us bluntly that the country was in a very prosperous mood until it happened unfortunately to fall for Fianna Fáil promises and that since then there was nothing but want and misery in the country. We did take over in 1932, as everybody knows; there is one yardstick that the Opposition always use in measuring prosperity and that is the agricultural community of this country.

I would take those Deputies who are old enough back to the position in 1932. What percentage of farmers were in several years' arrears to the Irish Land Commission with their annuities? Thefarmers are honest people and always inclined to pay their way, but at that time they had been brought to the level that not merely were many of them three years in arrears with their instalments but there were some of them seven and eight years in arrears.

You told them not to pay.

I did not tell them not to pay. I never told anybody not to pay what they were legally and morally obliged to pay if they, could pay it. What was the percentage of farmers at that time who were unable to pay? Was there not a big percentage who, under the Land Act of 1933, had a number of years remitted altogether and three years funded? In that state of affairs, was the agricultural community then in prosperity? Talking about all the fine things that were done —I sold pigs at 28/- a cwt. in the town of Loughrea during that régime.

And you sold bullocks for 18/-.

That was at a later stage when we were fighting a national fight to save the country from the consequences of war and Fine Gael were stabbing us in the back.

You paid dear for it with a lump sum you could have paid at the beginning.

I am not going to allege against Cumann na nGaedheal that they were altogether responsible for that state of affairs. They were not. I hear a good deal from a number of Deputies in this House about the restriction of credit. In my opinion, if credit is needed for worth-while schemes of advancement that should not happen; but there is no greater danger to the farming community than unlimited credit. We got unlimited credit from the commercial banks in 1919 and 1920.

The commercial banks were paying to their depositors 4 per cent. interest and they let it out at 7 per cent. and, in some instances, as high as 8 per cent., and what happened? We had that great boom period which aroseas a result of the 1914-1918 war and a great many of the farmers in this country went in for the credit that was actually being forced upon them by the commercial banks of this country. They went into the buying of live-stock all over the country, and if they had not sufficient, area on their own firms they went into the auctioneers where land was being let and they purchased it at a highly inflated valuation; and in September of 1921 what was the position as a result of that unlimited credit? With a stroke of the pen—that would be about the most apt description of it— the whole capital was reduced to half. We then had the 1929 slump which came along too. That was a World wide slump and the Government here had no control. Neither had we control over what happened in 1921 when our capital as farmers was reduced to half with one stroke of the pen in the month of September of that year.

Who was responsible?

I believe in giving credit, as I say, for schemes that will be of lasting benefit to the people of this generation and future generations but I do not believe in unlimited credit. Now if a farmer goes into a bank and he says to the bank manager that he wants £200 or £300 or £500 or £1,000 credit, the bank manager should, and I am sure that he does, ascertain in what way he was going to expend that money. If he is going to expend that money on machinery, and if he is going to expend it on the improvement of his holding, then I say that the banks, certainly if that man is fairly solvent and if he has guarantors to guarantee his solvency, should provide him with the, cash he requires. But if he goes in and says that he wants it to purchase more live-stock he is then treading on very dangerous ground and it does not matter what trade agreement any Government makes, that is a disaster as far as that is concerned.

I am not going to throw bouquets at Deputy Dillon for his 1948 agreement. Neither am I going to throw bouquets at the present Minister for Agriculturefor his trade agreement. It was the duty and the bounden duty of both the one and the other of them and their Departments to do the best thing they could for the people of this country and to be advised by the people who are competent to advise them. But we must remember that as far as a bargain is concerned there are always two to a bargain. It is all very well to say that in Deputy Dillon's time and in Deputy Walsh's time as Minister for Agriculture, Britain is prepared to take so much, to take all if necessary, but that does not govern prices. It is supply and demand that governs prices periodically. When I heard Deputy Dillon on the opposite benches saying that he trusted the word of an English statesman regarding a certain legal defect that was in the agreement that he signed, I said to myself: "You trust an Englishman all right, but certainly if there was a defect of that kind that an Irishman tried to get over in that way you would not trust him, though he was one of your colleagues in the Fine Gael Benches".

What is the point regarding unemployment which Deputy McGilligan tried to describe? Well, I know that while there are a number of people unemployed in this country and that it is a sad thing that we have any genuine unemployed person without work, it was the Fianna Fáil Government that made it possible to show what were the real unemployment figures in this country. Up to 1932 the only people who could and were permitted to register as unemployed were the people who had already been in employment and paying unemployment insurance. We altered all that situation in 1932. We made it possible for everybody who was unemployed to register at the local labour exchange, and the local labour exchange as far as any State works were concerned bad to be called upon to supply the personnel for the carrying out of that work. Was that how Cumann na nGaedheal carried on? They carried on so that the only passport to work during their term of office was the membership card of the Cumann na nGaedheal organisation in the area ora letter from the Cumann na nGaedheal Deputy.

That was being done by Fianna Fáil. They used to practise the same policy.

They never did it, Deputy. That is where you are making a mistake, and I challenge you or anybody in this House to say that Fianna Fáil ever stooped to that thing. As far as State schemes are concerned, the regulations provide that the people registered at the local labour exchanges are the people to get first preference on that work irrespective of what their political affiliations are.

Now there is a great deal of talk about unemployment and, as I say, it is most unfortunate that we have any unemployment as far as the people who are genuinely anxious to get work are concerned. There are people anxious to get work and genuinely unemployed if you had the type of work that would I suit them. It was mentioned to-day by Deputy Lynch, the Parliamentary Secretary, that mechanisation is causing a considerable amount of unemployment, and it is causing it. It would cause even more in the countries of the world were it not that many of them are involved in the situation that concerns them at the present time. But you have the craftsmen of 30 years ago, the carpenters, the tailors, the harness-makers and the coach-builders, in every town and city in this country, and even if the Labour Party were in power to-morrow they would not be able to provide employment for such people because at that particular age they could not adapt themselves to work the machines that are installed in factories.

What is the best thing to do for that? What can you do for them other than place them on the unemployed list and give them as much as the country can afford by way of unemployment assistance? You have a small number, of course, who, as Deputy Giles said, are not anxious to work; but, unfortunately, the flock is always discerned by the few black sheep. It does not weigh with me when people say that none of these fellows would take employment. I know very well alot of them would take employment, but with the exception of the City of Dublin and other borough cities and some of the larger towns, the people who tell me that there is real and grave unemployment in rural Ireland to-day will not convince me that such is the case.

It is seldom that I interject here, but yesterday, I think, Deputy Corish, for whom I have a very high regard, said when somebody mentioned about Bord na Móna offering work which was not accepted: "How can they accept work at £4 10s. a week?" According to Deputy Corish's standard, perhaps £4 10s. does not look very much, but what about the employment that they are all talking about, that they say we took from them, employment under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, where it was £3 10s. and you down to the hips in water in mid-winter, the coldest period of the year?

The Parliamentary Secretary will not mind my saying that when I said £4 10s. I meant £4 10s. in the case of a man who goes to Bord na Móna and out of that has to pay £2 for "digs". If he is a married man it is not very much.

I will not argue with you for the ?.

It is £2 for "digs".

When a man comes to Dublin, foolishly comes to Dublin, what has he to pay for "digs"? Three pound for "digs", unless he is in a real doss-house altogether, and I would be very sorry to see any of our people reduced to a standard of that kind.

We had Deputy Dillon yesterday talking about unemployment in Dublin and telling us that Communism was leading it. It is all right to plead Communism when it suits, but on another occasion, on the Health Bill, they plead the Hierarchy and the Church. That is the kind of jumping from one place to another we have now. Deputy Dillon had great solicitude for the unemployed in Dublin. He said those leading them were most anxious that their blood would runalong the streets of Dublin. If what Deputy Dillon wanted to have done, for which he was expelled or forced to resign from the Fine Gael Party in 1941, was done how much blood would have flowed in the streets of Dublin? He had not much solicitude for the people concerned on that occasion. Fine Gael has fomented and encouraged every agitation of the kind that is on now, during all their time in the House since they became an Opposition. They intervened in the teachers' strike, when Deputy McGilligan said: "Why should teachers work here for the salary they are offered, when there is a golden opportunity for them across the water?"

Contrast that with what we did, with our attitude from 1948 to 1951. We had strikes in Dublin—we had the bakery strike during our period out of office. Did the Minister for Industry and Commerce of our time—Deputy Lemass, as he was then—try to foment that or accelerate it and make it more troublesome for the Government of the day? When the C.I.E. strike started in Dublin and carried on for six months, as a result of a row between two unions, there was none of that fomenting by the Fianna Fáil Party. The way Fine Gael and the Coalition got out was by giving two particular gentlemen full pay for doing nothing. That was the way they solved the question. I do not think that was a proper way of solving it.

Who fixed that?

It was the Coalition that was in office at that time. It is a very annoying situation when you remember that Deputy Morrissey inserted in a section of his 1950 Transport Bill, that the general taxpayer was to be responsible for any losses incurred on C.I.E. when two members of that staff are left off work, given an indefinite holiday and still given full pay. If that is not a loss to the general taxpayer, I do not know what a loss is.

You are on a slippery slope.

There is a lot of talk about the Local Authorities (Works)Act, that we have clamped down on it and have reduced the expenditure. That is true, but in the year before the Coalition Government went out of office, by how much did they reduce it? Did they not reduce it by £50,000? Deputy Keyes, the Minister for Local Government then, agreed to that when it was put up to him by the Government. Perhaps he reluctantly agreed, but there must have been some convincing facts when he agreed to it. It has been reduced further still. I always agreed with the principle of that Act, both inside and outside the House, but I certainly did not agree with the way in which it was administered, nor do I agree with it yet. Where you have rock, shoal or sand-hills in a river there is no use in putting men to try and do the job; you have to bring machinery onto it. What really happened was that at the end of 1949 that Act was brought in to neutralise the effect of what had happened as a result of the hand-won turf scheme being abandoned by the Coalition.

That is why it was brought in. Rushed orders were sent out to every county manager and county engineer to get on with the work, to spend the money anyhow. They did so, and undoubtedly the gangers were humane men and so were the county engineers. They could not see their way to put unfortunate men down in the bottom of a river to cart up the "spoil." They skimmed in the brinks and threw the soil down into the flood and as a result in two years the river was worse than before they started. People have come to me, even last Sunday, and said so much money was expended on the local river but that it was no use. They said that was needed new was to approach the county surveyor to see if he could send a, dredger on the river to clear up the "spoil" left in the bottom, as otherwise the position would be worse than ever. I am not in disagreement with the principle of the Act. In fact, I made out application forms immediately it was enacted and sent them all over the constituency to the people concerned, so that they would give the proper particulars andhave them submitted to the county council.

You voted against it eight times in this House.

He did not.

Yes, eight times.

I have a very great respect for Deputy Seán Collins who is sitting on the front Opposition bench. I listened to a number of speeches in this debate and if there was one constructive speech or an attempt at a constructive speech by any Deputy on the Opposition Benches it was made by Deputy Seán Collins. He mentioned turf development. I am glad to see that he is so enthusiastic and so anxious about turf development. I could bring into this House the records of the debates when turf development was first mooted by the present Minister for Industry and Commerce and I could prove to Deputy Seán Collins that a number of his senior colleagues in the Fine Gael Party who are here to-day went into the Division Lobbies and voted against it. I could give him the names of at least 11 of those Deputies.

Turf development is one of the finest things that was ever started in this country, thanks to the vision and wisdom of Seán Lemass. If we go down to the Midlands now we can see beautiful towns and houses where formerly there was nothing except marsh and water.

That is one for you, Deputy Davin. What about Offaly?

What help did we get from Fine Gael when that legislation was going through? I am glad that there is now a change of attitude in regard to it. The help that we got at that time was that we were opposed at every stage by the people who speak and, I believe, speak with responsibility and authority, for Fine Gael in this House even at the present time.

There was talk about the land project. I heard Deputy Finan say thata number of persons who made application complain that their applications have not yet been investigated. Deputy Finan could not understand why that was so. I am sure there are numerous applications and I expect that a number of the inspectors are doing their best. I am sure that there is no change except in a few instances in the personnel of the inspectorate staff, who were appointed by Deputy Dillon. Rome was not built in a day and people have to be a bit more reasonable. The only place where I found applications left unattended was where an inefficient inspector had been appointed by Deputy Dillon. Such persons were given any amount of time by the present Minister to make good their inefficiency before he took drastic action— and that has happened in a few cases in this country. I am glad to say that they have been replaced by men who were already in the Civil Service, and had an idea of what it is to try to be efficient and to discharge their duty to the State. No new men were brought in.

I am sorry for having delayed the House so long but, as I said earlier, I would have not intervened were it not for the misrepresentation—and I would say that it was not innocent misrepresentation—by Deputy Blowick as regards the Corrib scheme.

I heard Deputy Oliver Flanagan give us the usual recitation the other night. Everyone could be provided for: every wrong could be righted and, at the same time, we could have lower taxation and so forth. However, he made one point—a point of which the smaller Parties in this House should take cognisance. He said that he joined Fine Gael because they are the bigger Party and that they will be the bigger Party after the next general election. In other words, they will swamp all the rest of you here.

We have listened to a very nice and frank speech by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance. For the past three days, and for three days last week, with very few exceptions, all the speeches Were purely political Party speeches. Even after the debate this week, I have not yet got any indication of what stepsare to be taken to solve the problems with which we are faced. I heard the speech made by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs last Tuesday and, on the same day, I also heard Deputy McGilligan. The Minister for External Affairs spoke yesterday. I hope that everybody in the House will read the speech which he made, and re-read it, especially his references to inflation. I listened also to the speech which was made by Deputy Dillon yesterday. I am disappointed to note that no change is evident in either of the two major political Parties in regard to solving the problems which face our people.

Having listened to many speeches, and having read the others as best I can, there is one thing which I think this House and the people should be told and it concerns our external assets. I heard the speech which the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs made on Tuesday last and I read the speech which the Taoiseach made last week. The figures which both of them give in regard to external assets are most confusing. I am interested in this matter and I am trying to find out where the truth lies. In April, 1952, the Taoiseach said in this House, as reported at column 246 of Volume 131 of the Official Report:—

"I gave the House already the position in regard to our external assets. I showed that they had been reduced from £225,000,000 which was the calculation of the net reserves which was made around 1949. They have been reduced in the last three years down to £125,000,000 which is now the amount of our net external reserves. Two years more of a deficit of that sort and we will have wiped them out."

Three weeks later, I read a report in the Irish Timesof the 17th May, 1952. of a statement which the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs made at the inaugural meeting of the Literary and Historical Society, University College, Dublin, regarding our external assets. The report was as follows:—

"There are about £210,000,000 of visible, touchable, controllable external assets, and about £80,000,000 to £100,000,000 are on reserve for trading, he said——"

It is well that everybody should read these statements. The report then continued:—

"——and stated that Fianna Fáil had about three to four years to reduce the sale of foreign assets at a rate that would neither paralyse industry nor prevent production permanently increasing.

If all the people of Ireland started talking about increased yields per acre and stock density and ceased discussing the Budget, the Budget would not worry anyone in a, few years."

To judge by the speeches made to the people of the country at that time, one would imagine that the country was bankrupt.

On the 9th February last, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs addressed the Institute of Secretaries at their annual dinner and I remember reading that he said that this country was worth in capital nearly £2,000,000,000. I should like to know the exact figure for our external assets. I suggest that, judging from all the contradictory statements we have heard on this subject, we have not an accurate record of the total amount of our external assets or of the money that is invested in this country by people from abroad. I submit that it is as easy to transfer money from London to Dublin or Cork as it is to transfer money from Liverpool to London. Therefore, I suggest that the people in general and the members of this House require to be told the truth as to where we stand so far as our external assets are concerned.

Both this week and last week, we have heard a good deal of criticism of the Central Bank. The Taoiseach still maintains the Central Bank have the power to guarantee the integrity of our currency and to safeguard our currency. I submit that they have no such power. Last Tuesday, I heard the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs state that in the year in which devaluation took place we lost £120,000,000. What power had the Central Bank of safeguarding our currency and credit during that year?I ask the Minister if he can tell us what one action of the Central Bank has done any kind of safeguarding of our credit. I have always been opposed to money belonging to our people being invested in England or elsewhere outside the country, and, whether that was done by the previous Government or the present Government it was wrong all the time. As a member of Cork Corporation, I can tell the House that we pay 5 per cent. for the money we borrow and we are charging decent honest men who are trying to build their own homes 6 per cent. to-day for loans for that purpose, while we have money invested in England in war stocks and transport and electricity undertakings at from 2½ to 3 per cent. Can it be denied that money transferred from our commercial banks to London at 1½ or 2 per cent. is not lent back here to the Irish people at 1¾ per cent. cheaper than they are charged by the banking system here? I know that is true and these are the matters I should like to hear being discussed here, rather than the political propaganda which has been indulged in by both sides.

Where has this political propaganda brought us? We heard the Minister for External Affairs telling us what happened with regard to our external assets and how they were all increased by the previous Government. I say it was wrong and I was not silent while the inter-Party Government were in power. I read a statement by that Minister in Youghal on 7th last month in which he said that, of the £46,000,000 the Americans gave this country, every penny was spent when they came back to power. On the very same day, the Taoiseach said in Youghal that, when they came back to office, they found the remnants of the Marshall Aid, amounting to £23,500,000.

It is not the remnants of the Marshall Aid. That is where you are wrong.

What we got from America.

It is the Loan Counterpart Fund—the money taken from our own people.

The Minister is not going to drive me off my track at all. I am not going to talk political propaganda. I want to talk about the position of the country because the unemployment problem, the housing problem and the conditions of a big section of our people are too serious matters for the playing of Party politics. The Taoiseach said that they found this remnant of £3,500,000 and that, on the advice of their experts, they had used the money which was readily available. I should like to know who were the experts. If the Taoiseach places any reliance on financial experts, I refer him to what Lloyd George and Mr. Churchill said about such experts in relation to going off and coming back on to the gold standard. He will find a good lesson in what these gentlemen said about taking the advice of financial experts.

Speaking in Bray last month, the Taoiseach said:—

"Some of the Coalition people want to bring the entire banking system under their control. I think we should not be very happy if that happened. I do not think the nation's interest would be well served if the banking system was to come under the control of these gentlemen."

Of politicians.

You are not one.

And Deputy Hickey is not a politician, either.

I am ignoring these remarks. I look upon that statement as true-blue conservatism and Toryism. I could select men from the Fianna Fáil Benches, from amongst those on this side and from outside the House, of proved capacity and social worth who could look after the banking interests and the credit of this country better than some of the major-generals, the colonels, the lords and right honourables who are in charge of our banking and credit system to-day. What is the meaning of all this pandering to these men who never wanted to see this country politically or economicallyfree? Yet, we have that statement from the leader of this country that we could not find men here who could run the banking system and control our money and credit better than the men who control it to-day. Then the Taoiseach wonders why the Labour Party are not supporting him in all he says and does. I listened to Deputy Dillon yesterday wasting the time of the House talking about all the things that are happening and all the things that have been done. He said in this House last year that he was not inclined to make any change in the present system of control of money and credit. I read a statement by the Taoiseach on 18th March, 1953, at column 573 of the Dáil Debates, in which he said:—

"I am convinced that the policy which the Government are pursuing is the only policy possible, even assuming that one had a number of policies to choose from."

I have often asked my self what is the cause of all this change. On 29th April, 1932, the Taoiseach said here:—

I never regarded freedom as an end in itself, but if I were asked what statement of Irish policy was most in accord with my views as to what human beings should struggle for I would stand side by side with James Connolly."

I would not expect the man who made that statement to tell us, in 1953, that, if the banking system were under the control of people whom we could select, the country would not be very happy, and I am quite satisfied that the back benchers of Fianna Fáil do not stand for that.

Many questions have been put down here about the unemployed—as to how many were unemployed this year as compared with previous years—and we had the Taoiseach talking of the average number of unemployed over several years. Listening to these statements, I wonder what is the reason for the change. He said in 1934:—

It would be possible, with the resources of this country, for 17,000,000 people to have a higherstandard of comfort than that in which the present people are living."

He emphasised that by saying:—

"I stand up to that. I believe it is a fact that the resources of this country, with proper organisation, are sufficient to give 17,000,000 people a higher standard of living than the present people are getting."

In a period of 19 years after, we have not yet reached a figure of 3,000,000 people. We have almost 70,000 people registered at the labour exchanges. We have 57,000 drawing home assistance. I do not want to paint the picture too badly, but it would be interesting if the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance or the members of the House would tell us and the people outside why that should be so. After all those years we have not yet 3,000,000 of a population and we have thousands of unemployed. The Taoiseach did not refer to that yesterday but, of course, he told us that it was easy to make scapegoats of the bankers. I do not want to talk about bankers or to make scapegoats of them. They are doing their own business in their own interests and in those of the groups they represent. The banks are responsible to nobody. I would suggest to the Taoiseach that money is not a commodity, as he stated yesterday. Money is a man-made system, invented to serve as tickets for the exchange of goods and services.

This is becoming academic.

Yesterday the Taoiseach said that the banks were dealing with a commodity and that that commodity was money.

What do you suggest as an alternative?

I am quite certain I will not get the alternative from Deputy McGrath.

This matter can be settled in Cork.

Let us talk seriously. Unemployment is only one of the results of our present system. Itrepresents the failure of private enterprise and capitalism to solve the problem of the distribution of wealth. I will probably be told by some people that I am advocating socialism or communism. I claim that I am speaking common sense. The problem of unemployment is by no means new. I will prove that by quoting from a booklet entitled The Trend of Unemployment and Employmentissued by the Department of Industry and Commerce in 1938, a copy of which many members of this House got. On the live register for 1938 there were from 100,518 to 106,613, and an average of over 70,000 per week during the employment period Order. That is 15 years ago. In 1939 there were 100,096 to 118,734 for 27 weeks of that year and from 93,737 to 98,776 for four weeks of that year, and from 70,470 to 81,719 during the employment period Order.

What improvement can we boast of in the past 15 years? I saw recently a report from the research committee of the United Nations. They made investigations in regard to the population of 52 countries. We were the only nation in the 52 whose population was reduced notwithstanding the fact that the population of the world increased by 60,000 per day since 1945. Would it not have been interesting if, during the past three days or the past three days of last week, responsible Ministers and the members on this side of the House told us what should be done to change that position? No, they think that political propaganda is going to solve unemployment. Is it not a fact that production from our land is the lowest of any country within reasonable reach of this country? Why a that so? Is it not because we are not in control of money and credit, the vital bloodstream of this country?

I submit that to-dar our army of workless is only the inevitable culmination of years of development to the point where new methods must be applied. Were it not for the employment period Order we would have anything from 75,000 to 80,000 out of employment. There are 38,000 in the Six Counties. There are roughly from 140,000 to 150,000 people for whomsociety can find neither employment nor adequate allowances. Those thousands represent all grades and classes of workers. I think Deputy McGrath would bear me out when I say that there are thousands of that number in Cork, Dublin and elsewhere who have not had jobs for the last 12 months. Yet their labour, of which productive use could be made, is not in demand. There lies a challenge to the Government, private enterprise, capitalism and, indeed, a challenge to all of us. To imagine that we will have a real solution of the problem of unemployment without a drastic change in our economic system is just wishful thinking.

The problem is to discover the faults in the system. We have a country which was never better equipped with knowledge and machinery which could be employed to produce the necessaries of life. This country is well equipped with knowledge and machinery of which no use is made and thousands of our people are in want. I suggest that the fault lies in the link between production and consumption. That link is money. Therefore, I submit to the Minister for Finance—and I am not one bit upset by his cynicism to anything I have said from time to time —that the time has come when we will have to be more serious than we have been in the past. The fundamental issue upon which we will have to decide is whether this country is going to be governed by the principle that public welfare must come before private interests. Are we going to ensure for all our citizens the material means of life and freedom from pressing want or are we going to continue the conditions where large sections of our people live continually in poverty, ill-clad, ill-fed, badly housed and workless?

I submit that we have to make up our minds to plan our economic system based on the control of money and credit. What we will do in the immediate future will decide the future of this country and the future of ay-Government. If we are going to be opposed to change, I feel that the future will be determined for us. We ought to be prepared to make sacrificesto bring about the necessary changes. I know that the real obstacle to progress in this country or any other country is the fear of change. And there I find fault with the Taoiseach when he talks about the question of control of money and credit, and goes on to raise clouds just to terrorise the people and frighten them by telling them that if these things are going to be done, we might find ourselves in the same position as the Germans found themselves when it was cheaper to paper the walls with marks than to buy wallpaper. I have in my possession a 100,000 mark and I bought it in the streets of London for 2d. when they were no longer valid. But I would like to say that if anybody demonstrated the myth of money, Hitler did. I hold no brief for Hitler, but we can take a lesson from many things. When he represented Germany in 1932 and 1933——

I think the Deputy is wrong about that, but it does not matter.

I thought it was 1932 and 1933.

1933, but not 1931 or 1932.

He was trying to represent a bankrupt country, with 7,000,000 unemployed.

It was in 1934 and 1935.

A Deputy

The Minister is just trying to find a mean point.

Six years later, he challenged the world at war. Did anybody ever hear him say that it was money that defeated him or destroyed his forces?

But were not all his labour men conscripts!

Yes, and I will answer the Parliamentary Secretary on that. Hitler recognised the fact that nothing counted only men and materials. Hedid not say like the Taoiseach here that money was a commodity. I will answer the Parliamentary Secretary by saying that it is labour that gives value to money. I could give the Parliamentary Secretary a cartload of golden sovereigns——

Will the Deputy answer this: is it a brown shirt or a blue shirt he is hankering after?

That is a mean, contemptible remark.

Typical of the Minister.

Because if anybody ever stood out against brown shirts and black shirts and blue shirts I did. That is what has left this country as it is. When anybody comes in here to discuss anything in a deliberate way dirty remarks like that are thrown at them.

I suggest that the Deputy relates his remarks to the Vote on Account.

I am trying to answer the Parliamentary Secretary when he put a question.

It was the Minister.

It is labour that gives value to wealth. I could give the Parliamentary Secretary a cartload of golden sovereigns and take it to a particular place but until you apply the labour of men or women to that, the money is no use. There is no value in money without labour.

Agreed, but there must be a little work.

I look upon it this way, that the most costly thing in the world is idleness and the most, profitable thing is well-paid labour.

Is not this drifting into am academic discussion?

Well, Sir, the whole debate yesterday was largely a question of money. We could not put ourunemployed to work because the money was not available, and that is the reason I want to point out to the Taoiseach that he should learn a little more of what money stands for. I am prepared to admit, too, that the interest we are charging our people who want to build homes and to live here in this country is at a rate which I think no Government could stand for.

Last year the E.S.B. had to pay £1,428,000 on interest alone in order to give the people electricity and develop rural electrification. Public bodies paid over £2,000,000 last year in interest alone for building houses and drainage etc. To whom did we pay all this interest? What service did they give at a time when we have thousands of our men and women denied the right to live and to work and earn the means by which they could get the things they need? I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to think a little more seriously where money matters are concerned. We are trying to operate a system in which unemployment and poverty are inevitable. We are governed by a money economy and money is worthless and has no meaning unless you apply human labour to it.

Would the Deputy give way while I put this question?

Surely that is not in order?

When an Irish citizen gets his dividends out of some investment does he not spend the money in Ireland? And does he not help to put goods and services and work in circulation?

Deputy Davin should not interrupt.

You would want money to buy a hair shirt as well as a blue shirt.

I will now refer the Deputies to a report of O.E.E.C. on conditions in this country which we paid to have reported.

Is that long ago?

No, it is this year. What did they say? That at least 60 per cent. of the incoming and outgoing cargoes in Irish and international trade is carried on British ships and practically all the insurance business transacted in Ireland appears to be in the hands of British companies. The Parliamentary Secretary is asking me if an Irish citizen get a dividend, does he not spend it in Ireland——

Would the Deputy be good enough to dilate on the relevance of the passage he has just read?

I was pointing out that 60 per cent. of all Irish cargo is carried in the bottoms of British or foreign ships when we should have at least 20 ships of our own instead of having £71,000,000 worth of the holdings of the Central Bank and £54,000,000 or £56,000,000 worth of Government Department funds invested in England.

Is the Deputy aware that his Government cancelled an order for Irish ships?

I will answer the Minister by saying that I did not agree and would not agree with any Government that was slow in doing the things that ought to be done.

Keep to the Vote on Account.

In 1944, there was £4,132,344 taken in premiums from this country by outside insurance companies. In 1951 it was 104 per cent. of that, or £8,432,000 and for the eight years from 1944 to 1951 the amount was £49,441,000—all taken out in premiums.

Would it not require legislation to change that?

It would not require legislation to change that. If we were to continue sending the same amount of money out of the country—the 1952 figure is not available yet—for the next two years, we would have sent out £66,500,000 of our money. That does not include insurance on air services or marine services. These figures show how justified the experts were who came to this country to examineour economic conditions, in indicating our dependence on outside influences.

The trade is not a one-way trade.

Why should we not carry our cargoes on the bottoms of Irish ships and bring in here in these same ships the commodities we need from other countries? It is little wonder, having regard to that remark, that we have the position that exists in this country to-day.

I am asked by Deputy Allen what price I would pay for money. I have a very definite view about usury and about interest on money. I believe that the Government elected by the people should be in control of the money and the credit of the nation and that the capital we need for rural electrification, afforestation, bog development and everything else in this country should be issued and utilised to create work for our own people. It could be paid back as the revenue grew from these particular industries.

Deputy Allen rose.

Deputy Allen will not be permitted to carry on any further cross-examination. The Deputy will resume his seat.

He is making a skit of the whole thing.

Deputy Davin is himself always interrupting.

Deputy Davin should not interrupt either.

I am not interrupting. I am advising him not to take any notice of these people.

All I am concerned about is this. I do not care what side of the House is to blame but for the past three days, and for three days in the previous week, we have had to listen to speeches in this House which for the most part were political Party propaganda. That has brought us where we are. I would suggest to Deputy Carter, who is a young man— in fact, I would suggest to the young men on both sides of the House—that the time has arrived when we musttake a very serious view of the future and consider seriously the question of who is to control the issue of money and credit in this country. If we have people living in hovels and slums to-day—and I think Deputy MacCarthy and Deputy McGrath will agree with me that we have had that position for years, not alone in Cork but all over the country—that is a situation for which capitalism and private enterprise are responsible. We have got to change that system and we can change it without having anything revolutionary done in this country. I am suggesting to the Minister that the time has arrived when the representatives elected by the people should sit down calmly and deliberately make up their minds to take control of the currency and credit of the country. We are tied to the currency of another country that is any thing but solvent at the moment. I suggest, and I challenge contradiction, that this is the only country in the world where the curreney is tied to the securities of an outside Government.

Did you ever hear of stabilisation of credit?

You can call it by any beautiful terms you like but that is not solving our problem. We have thousands of unemployed people needing food, clothing, housing, and furniture in their homes. I am trying to deal seriously with the problems confronting our country and nonsense of that kind will go nowhere. I know there are men in that Party who stand for principles similar to those for which I stand. I am not advocating anything revolutionary but I am convinced, from the teachings of our own religion, that we should not be carrying on the system we are carrying on at the moment. We are asking decent workers who have barely sufficient to provide themselves and their families with food and clothing, to pay exorbitant rents owing to the excessive interest charges which public authorities have to pay for housing loans. That is what we call an economic rent. An economic rent of what? Five per cent. on £1,500 or £1,600, as these houses arecosting, means that they have to pay 30/8 per week for interest alone. I know there are decent men on the Fianna Fáil Benches and on these benches who will admit that that is quite wrong. I claim that it is even morally wrong. If I am told that what I am advocating is morally wrong. I am prepared to listen to argument, and if I am convinced that I am wrong I shall admit it. We are trying to operate a system which is out-moded and out-dated. While we are doing that, the Taoiseach came in her yesterday and told us that money is a commodity.

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy but he has said the same thing about half a dozen times.

I think I have said sufficient on this subject. When the Minister is replying—looking at the pile he has in front of him, especially records of the House, I am somewhat apprehensive—I hope he is not going to indulge in political quotations. I want to hear something concrete from him.

Did you not quote from the Taoiseach?

Surely you are not going to deny me an equal opportunity?

I do not want to deny the Minister any rights, but I hope that what we shall hear from him will be some indication of the changes that will be brought about to deal with the pressing problems with which we are confronted. If the Minister brings forward some proposal to deal with these problems, he will have no stronger backing in any part of the House than from these benches. I want to repeat something which I have said before, that the Taoiseach and the Taoiseach before him had a better chance than any other political leader in the world of doing the things that our people desire. Why are these things not being done? I suggest that we are afraid to attack vestedinterests. Vested interests are so dug in in this country that it will take the fearlessness, the spirit of sacrifice and the patriotism that inspired the men of 1916 to uproot them and put them out. That is taking place all around us in the world and if we think we are going to have a solution of the unemployment problem while we are prepared to continue in the old rut, I say it cannot be done and it will not be done.

I agree with Deputy Hickey that a considerable amount of time has been devoted to this debate, Some of that time was spent usefully, but a lot of it was just wasted time. I propose to be brief in my remarks. I would say, first of all, that we seem to have run into very serious difficulties in this country. In my opinion, the reason we are up against these difficulties to-day—the difficulty of unemployment, the difficulty of emigration and many other difficulties—is that the present Government, or for that matter any Government in this country, did not pay sufficient attention to our basic industry.

All down through the years Irish agriculture has been neglected. It has never been given a chance. I remember—I am sure other members of the House remember it, too—when we had representatives of the present Government shouting about new industries. Their theories in that regard would have been beneficial had they been put into practice; but the great disadvantage was, and we see the results to-day, that while all this talk was going on about the establishment of new industries the industry that really counted was neglected. Indeed, it was smashed and the farmers' backs were broken. The proof of that is that to-day what were once happy homesteads in rural Ireland are now derelict buildings. That is true of my own native village where there were once 26 houses; to-day only 16 or 17 houses are occupied in that same village. The laughter of children is growing daily rarer in our countrysides. The youth of to-day has no confidence in native government.

Even at this late hour, I appeal to the Government to tackle the majorproblems that confront us. The Government must get down to the drainage of the main arteries, like the Moy and the Corrib and the Shannon and so on. It is only by a proper system of drainage that the water will be removed from waterlogged lands all over the country.

I listened to the Taoiseach last night and I heard him say that from now on particular attention would be paid to Irish agriculture, to the liming and fertilising of the land. Such schemes are in themselves very valuable but while hundreds of thousands of acres of Irish land are under water, liming and fertilising are of no value and we will continue to have a low agricultural output. I am sure Deputy I Carter and Deputy Killiea will agree with me in that; I pass through several counties travelling up here and I know that what is true of my own constituency is also unfortunately true of many others throughout the length and breadth of the country. It it no use pretending that one can reap a harvest from waterlagged lands. It simply cannot be done. Furthermore, to suggest that such land can be limed and fertilised is absolute nonsense. That is indeed putting the cart before the horse.

The land reclamation scheme, initiated by the inter-Party Government, will bring beneficial results if continued. I do not suggest that everything connected with that scheme is 100 per cent. right. It is a new scheme and for that reason mistakes are understandable. Until recent times we have not had any experience in this country of any major operations in the way of land reclamation. We had to purchase machinery. We had to implement the Local Authorities (Works) Act in order to open up minor rivers and streams to make the bigger scheme of land reclamatian possible and it is quite natural that there should be certain delays.

I would like to impress upon the Government the importance of going ahead with that work with all possible speed. If these schemes are put into operation forthwith they will go a good way towards relieving unemployment and our young people who are nowemigrating to England and other countries or migrating to the cities and towns will remain in their own native environment. To-day many of our young men are engaged on drainage work in England; these men would prefer to stay at home on drainage work here even if conditions were not as good as they are said to be across the water. Our farmers sons and daughters are flocking into the cities and towns because there is no occupation for them in the rural areas. They are seeking employment in the cities and towns in competition with the townsman and the city man. That is one of the reasons why we have recently been treated to the spectacle of hundreds of unemployed congregating outside the gates of Leinster House and squatting on O'Connell Bridge. I am very sorry to see such a spectacle.

We have unemployed in Mayo and in other counties, but they did not sit down on the main thoroughfares of this city or approach the gates of Leinster House. They were obliged, when they were unemployed and could not eke out an existence at home, to emigrate to England and America in order to keep body and soul together. It is a regrettable thing that from areas like Achill, Erris, Ballycroy and Ballina town, and indeed from over the length and breadth of my constituency, people are being forced to emigrate to Great Britain in order to seek a livelihood. I know that, in recent times, quite a number of houses have been locked up in Ballina town and that whole families have gone to England. The same is true of Erris and Achill. The tragedy is that the manpower of the country, those skilled in the production of food, is being forced to emigrate. We cannot have prosperity in the country while that is so.

It might be expected from me, as a member of the Farmers' Party in this House, that I would stand up and agitate for increased prices for farm produce. I certainly feel that one of my first duties is to see that the farmer is paid a fair price for what he has to sell, a price that will remunerate him for his labour and leave him a fairmargin of profit. As long as I am a member of the House I will always stand for that. While I think that the farmer is entitled to a fair margin of profit for what he produces, I, at the same time, feel that we should be able to make available for the workers of the country food at the cheapest possible price. The farmer, as I say, is entitled to a fair and a reasonable margin of profit, but we must consider at the same time that there is a limit to what the working man can pay, a man with a wife and family who is earning, perhaps, £5, £6 or £7 a week. I, therefore, would like to see, instead of putting up the price of farm produce and of continuing to agitate for increased prices for it, that we should try, by the introduction of more modern methods, and by the use of machinery to drain the main arteries of the country, thus making more and more land available to our farmers, to create a situation whereby the farmer would be able to get an increased output of every acre of his land. In that way, we could ensure that, during periods of emergency, the food supply for our own people would not only be guaranteed but that, possibly, we would be able to make food available for export.

I think there are very few Deputies, regardless of which side of the House they sit on or the political Parties they belong to, who would say or would be so stupid as to think that the whole set up and frame up of this country is built around agriculture. I would suggest to all Deputies, regardless of their political leanings, that they should unite to do all they possibly can to improve the conditions of the Irish farmer. If we could step up production on the land, and I believe we could double and treble it, then we could afford to live better, to spend more money and employ more people on the land and in our cities. If you have thousands of people employed regularly on the land, the result will be that industries will spring up in our towns and villages.

About this time last year we were discussing the Undeveloped Areas Bill in this House. I do not know of any benefit that has come to my area as aresult of that measure except one. I did give credit to Deputy Bartley, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture, for a grant of something like £25,000 which came to Achill for the development of Purteen harbour. I did so as a member of the county council, and on behalf of the people I represent, I thanked him for that. I do not mind which political Party he belongs to so long as he brought that scheme to us. We appreciate it, and I want to say here what I said about it at the county council meeting. That is the only benefit I know of which the Undeveloped Areas Act has brought to my constituency. In my opinion, that Act has not brought any great measure of prosperity to constituencies such as mine. Perhaps there are other constituencies which have benefited from it, and perhaps later on something may come to my constituency from it. So far, nothing worth while under that Act has been done in my constituency.

When that measure was going through the House I expressed the hope that it would bring some measure of prosperity to the undeveloped areas and the congested districts. I think it was Deputy M. P. Murphy who said that if a lot of the money that is being spent under that particular act was pumped into agriculture it would be much better for the country. We know what the agricultural industry is capable of if given a chance, but it has not been given a chance. The proof of that is our low agricultural output, and, if further proof is necessary, we have it in the fact that this country is importing year after year considerable quantities of foreign butter. I know from personal knowledge, as one conversant with the trade, that at certain times in the year one cannot get an egg in the City of Dublin. That is the position for a month or six weeks in the year, and if yon can buy one, the price is 1/- or 1/2 in this city. Surely, there is something seriously wrong in an agricultural country when, for a period, it is not possible to buy an egg, and if one can buy one that the price should be 1/- or 1/2. It is time, therefore, that we examined the situation with a view to protecting our farmers and our agriculture whichis our basic industry, realising at the same time that those who buy the food we produce from the land are entitled to a fair and honest deal.

During the period of the emergency, Britain was glad to take from us all the food we could give her. She was prepared to pay dearly for what, in normal times, she would not be prepared to buy, or at least, would not be prepared to pay the price which she paid at that time.

We have got it into our heads that the boom which started in the war years may continue indefinitely. I know just a little about the set-up behind the scenes of Her Majesty's Government so far as the gentlemen who meet our Irish delegation are concerned. I have reason to. I have known some of the men on the other side of the water who met our Irish Ministers. I want to sound this note of warning for all concerned, that, not alone from the point of view of giving our own people a better article, better marketed, but from the point of getting other markets that other nations are anxious to supply, we should market our produce in a better condition. We are faced with opposition from countries such as New Zealand and Denmark. While our food is far far better in quality than the food from any other country in the world, I am afraid we are rather lax from time to time in the way in which it is handled. That is a matter in which the Government should interest itself to try to effect an improvement in the handling and packing of our produce.

When we go into a shop we are attracted by an article that is nicely wrapped and handled properly. We should realise that we have got in pretty well on some of the foreign markets. We should strain every nerve to hold the ground we have gained. Furthermore, we should not be too dependent on the British market. We should try to develop European markets.

Fly by nights.

I know something about it. Under the Fianna Fáil Government, during the economic waryears, we tried to get other markets, such as the Spanish market. Fianna Fáil were not so successful then. A war was not raging at that time. Later, efforts on the parts of various Ministers were successful to a certain extent. I would like to think that we would not be wholly dependent on the British market. A remark was passed on one occasion by a certain leading statesman in England. When British representatives were meeting Irish representatives who went over to strike a bargain, the advice the British representatives got was: "Get as much as you can as cheaply as you can from these gentlemen". That is all that the particular gentleman said.

What year was that?

It is a number of years ago. They were pretty independent then. The British market was being flooded with Canadian, American and other produce.

I remember a phrase that asked for that.

I notice from time to time, and have made inquiries and got reliable information, that the prices paid for pigs at bacon factories vary considerably. In some cases there is a difference of 10/- a cwt. as between one factory and another. That is very strange. If that is allowed to continue, our bacon industry will crash again. We all remember a time when you could not get throughout the length and breadth of the country a pound of rashers. People may say that that was due to scarcity of feeding stuffs. In my opinion the scarcity was due to a large extent to the fact that bacon factories took advantage of the situation that existed. There was a surplus of pigs and they so reduced the price that farmers lost so heavily that they went out of pig production and were reluctant to resume it. In recent times they have returned to pig production. The pig population has increased. I would like it to continue to increase. Every member of the House appreciates the importance ofthe pig industry both from the point of view of supplying the home market and the export trade. If this juggling with prices continues, if you have one bacon factory paying 10/- a cwt. more than another, the industry will certainly crash again.

Recently pigs have come down or 10/- a cwt. again. At the same time the price of bacon has not decreased. That is beyond the comprehension of the ordinary individual. We in County Mayo buy bacon from Deputy McGrath's area. I have often seen bacon from his city cheaper on delivery in County Mayo than the local bacon. That is rather strange.

Keep buying it from us.

It does not always apply but from time to time such a situation exists. Many of the matters. I have raised are matters that the Minister for Agriculture or some other Minister should pay more attention to. The pig industry is an important industry.

My colleague, Deputy Finan, spoke about cheap fertilisers. It is not the first time he referred to that matter. Since I became a member of the House he has been harping on that particular subject. I quite agree with him that fertilisers can be made available more cheaply to the farmers. It is of no use to tell me that they cannot. If the Government are serious about building up agriculture, if the Taoiseach is serious in what he said last night, there is one direct way in which results can be achieved almost immediately. It is the subsidisation of fertilisers or the reduction in the cost of superphosphates and other fertilisers by some other means.

At present farmers cannot afford to buy large quantities of fertilisers. They may be able to buy three, four or five cwt. or, in some cases, half a ton or a ton but that as not sufficient. If we could afford to increase substantially the application of fertilisers to good land, dry land, we would get almost an immediate return. Deputy Finan suggested that we would increase output by 25 to 30 per cent. As a matter of fact, we would increase it by muchmore. As Deputy Finan pointed out, we will get quick results. If the Minister would seriously tackle the problem of the cost of fertilisers the benefits would be immediate and enormous.

Or increasing the price of farm produce?

We must consider that John Citizen is entitled to a fair deal also. As to the point raised by Deputy Cunningham, I would not charge our farmers with inefficiency as they are doing a good job under difficult circumstances, but I would not like to think that, through our inefficiency, we are making the consumers in this country pay increased prices. For instance, if a woollen mill in Donegal or any other type of mill fails to put its house in order and through inefficiency cannot produce articles at an economic price, I say in all seriousness that that industry is not deserving of support if the consumers of the articles have to pay an increased price so as to keep the concern going. The same thing would apply to agriculture. We in Clann na Talmhan are not calling for an increase in the price of this, that and the other thing. That is due to the fact that conditions in this country at present are such that our farmers are getting a reasonably good price. As the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance said, that is due to the fact that the British find it is good business to deal with us although they are not very fond of us or inclined to throw anything away.

With regard to the question of bog development which in areas like mine is closely connected with agriculture, there has been a lot of talk about the development of the Bangor-Erris and various other bogs in Mayo. I am most anxious that these bogs should be developed. I will give every encouragement and help I can to any Government, whether a Fianna Fáil or an inter-Party Government, in that direction. It would be a bad thing if we, as Deputies, should try to obstruct or hinder in any way useful activities undertaken by any Government. I do not suggest that everything Fianna Fáil did was entirely wrong, nor do I suggest that everything the people on this side of the House did was right. Weall make mistakes. I would, however, like to see greater activity on these bogs.

I am aware that during the present year hundreds of men, women and children have left Achill and Erris in buses and trains to go to England. While there is a certain amount of employment given on the bogs, they are not prepared to stay there for the reason given by Deputy Corish and other Deputies, that the wage of £4 10s. a week is no good to a working man having regard to the cost of living. If we do not wake up to that situation we will be draining the life blood of this nation by allowing those people to emigrate. The same thing would apply in Donegal and other areas where the holdings are small as applies in my area. The fact that they can get work on the bogs is a great asset to people whose income from the land is limited because their holdings are small and uneconomic. The present rate of wages of £4 10s., however, is no use to these people. They are not prepared to stay in Ireland and put up with that.

Furthermore, no houses have been built for our bog workers in Mayo. We hope that at some future date houses will be made available to these workers. The shelters and huts where men have to take their meals or shelter from the rain are really only hovels and are not fit for human habitation. I would not like to see even animals going into some of these shacks which are on the bogs. I know that a great number of young people who were working on the bogs lost their health and are now in T.B. institutions because these huts are unfit for human habitation. I would impress on the Government the importance of treating the workers in the same way in which they are treated across the water where they have proper accommodation with hot and cold water provided. I do not say that that applies in all cases.

What about the bothies in Scotland?

I quite agree that in many areas everything is not just what we would like it to be. I regret to say that in parts of England andScotland there are bad living conditions but, generally speaking, they have advanced very considerably in the direction of improving living conditions for our workers who are forced to emigrate.

Some time this year I visited the town of Belmullet and saw a street there lined with buses. I was told that these were only some of the buses which were waiting for people to come along. Whole families emigrated from these areas to find employment across the water, while seven or eight miles away there was work to be done on the bogs, seasonable work, if you like. Naturally these people felt that they could make more money across the water. I put it to the Minister seriously that if we are prepared to give a reasonable increase, say 10/- or 15/- a week, to bog workers it would be an encouragement to these people to stay at home. We must take into account, of course, that if we increase the wages of workers and there are other increases, to some extent that may affect the finished product. There again you are up against another difficulty. The Government must try to hold the balance as evenly as possible between the consumer and the producer.

On the question of credit, I heard the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance saying that it was a bad thing to make credit too readily available to farmers for the purpose of stocking land and for other purposes. The Parliamentary Secretary can put his mind at ease, because as far as I can see there is not the slightest danger that credit will be made available so recklessly or so readily as he seems to think. He said that he would not like to see the system changed so that a man could walk into a bank and get a certain amount of money without his neighbours knowing of it. He would prefer that in trying to procure credit from a bank the farmer should undergo the humiliation of taking two of his neighbours with him and thus allow his neighbours to know all about his circumstances. We all have a little bit of pride and if we have to go to a bank to get credit we do not like totell the whole world about it. If one or two people know about it, you can rest assured that everybody else will know about it. The Parliamentary Secretary need not worry, as there is not the slightest danger that in the foreseeable future we will reach a position in which farmers will be able to walk into a bank and get £100 or £200 for any purpose.

The question of credit in this country seems to be about finished. The people who had the greatest security, people whose reputations are the very best cannot get credit from any bank or can only get it to a very limited extent. This has hampered business to a very great extent. I am engaged in business myself in a small way and I meet commercial travellers. As sure as I am addressing this House I had the experience of meeting travellers at 6 o'clock in the evening who had gone the whole round of the countryside without collecting a cheque for the day.

That state of affairs is very serious. I am not going to charge the Government, although other Deputies have done so. I do not want to stir up bitterness, but whoever is responsible has to answer for putting many businesses out of action. I was told a story in the City of Dublin about a publican who has to send out for a few dozen of stout every time a customer comes in. The poor man has almost reached the stage of bankruptcy. He has, his children to maintain, and due to the slump which has come he is unable to carry on. He is only one of many. The Minister for Finance or the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance need not be one bit afraid that bank managers are going to come out to the doors of the banks and start throwing out £100 to the farmers. He can sleep peacefully. He is dead safe.

The Parliamentary Secretary also said he was convinced that there was no unemployment in rural areas. I regret to hear the Parliamentary Secretary say that because every Deputy here who comes from a rural area knows well that, particularly in the congested areas where the holdings are uneconomic, there is mass emigration.It was going on in the days of the inter-Party Government also. I will not say it was any less or any more, but the truth is that it is still going on. I have not the figures before me at the moment in connection with emigration, but it went on in the days of Fine Gael and it goes on in the time of Fianna Fáil. It is regrettable that that should be so, but for the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance to say that there is no emigration from rural areas and that there was no unemployment in rural areas is fantastic. If Deputy Beegan, the Parliamentary Secretary, cares to come with me I will bring him free of charge around my constituency and show him that there is wholesale unemployment.

Will you stand him a bottle?

I would not mind doing that.

Mr. O'Higgins

A drop of poteen.

That is going too far.

However, I regret very much to hear that coming from a man in the responsible position of Parliamentary Secretary in charge of the Board of Works in St. Stephen's Green. I am sure the people of my constituency will be very sorry to know that is the opinion he has formed about conditions in various parts of the country, with particular reference to my own part of the country. He had better change his views completely because I can produce the figures of registered unemployed for Ballina, Ballycastle, Foxford, Belmullet, Achill and other centres, contradicting that. In fact, he need only check on those figures which are available in his own office to discover that statement is fantastic. I do not know whether he was serious or not but he appeared to be.

I will conclude by saying what I said at the outset, that if the Government are serious about putting this country on its feet, let them tackle Irish agriculture and put it on its feet. You can build prosperity in the City of Dublin if you forget about the main industry. For five years I have workedaround this city. I have done business with the people here. I know them well and I know how they live. I have worked with some of those lads who came to the gates of Leinster House. I was sorry to see them there, and any assistance I can give any Irish Government in helping to solve that problem I will gladly give it. I do not wish to set up animosity between town and country. It is no use talking about producing agricultural commodities if you have not someone to consume them. The townsman is important. He is a cog in the machine. Our own market at home is better than any other market.

If we are able to build up Irish agriculture the cities will look after themselves. Money will start to pump into the concerns of the business people. They, in turn, I hope, will loosen the purse strings on which they have held a fairly tight grip for a long number of years. During the war years they did make money. It is a tragedy that they are reluctant to invest money at home and that they have not more confidence in their own country. I am not satisfied in my own mind that this Government is serious in regard to the difficulties which confront us, having looked back on their past efforts, on what they promised to do and what they failed to do. I am not very hopeful of what is likely to happen. We hear about the things that are around the corner and on the other side of the hill but I wish they would come a bit nearer, because we want them badly just now.

I have been intrigued by some of the speeches made from the opposite benches in the course of this debate on the Vote on Account. We have people advocating that we should reduce the cost of living and, at the same time, give a smaller return to our farmers; and last but by no means least, we have our old friend, Deputy Hickey, a man whom I like very well as a personality, telling us that the credit of this country should be handed over to this House. I wonder would Deputy Hickey like to lend me a £5 note in the morning if I told him that I was going to invest it in County Longford in 20 hens as a venture. That is avery small illustration of what Deputy Hickey means. Deputy Hickey wants to take the credit and money of this country out of the hands of the banking institutions and hand it over to this House.

No. He wants you to control it.

He wants this House to control it. I am glad to get that admission from Deputy Everett. If a Party liquidated £120,000,000 of our assets, increased the national debt, in fact, doubled it, borrowed £40,000,000 from America and yet had no tangible assets to show for it, would you entrust such a Party with your money? It is a fair question and it merits a fair answer.

You would trust England with it first.

On the question of the external assets which Deputy MacBride only recently seems to have brought up after he put his policy in abeyance when he came into this House, if Deputy MacBride had any opinions regarding the use of our external assets why did he not stand on his feet at the head of his own Party when he came into this House and advocate them from his own benches?

Mr. O'Higgins

Did we liquidate them or increase them? What did you say a moment ago?

I said that if Deputy MacBride had any opinion to offer this House regarding our external assets why did he not stand at the head of his own Party and formulate a policy for the withdrawal of our external assets?

I thought you were abusing us for having withdrawn them.

Now, now, now.

Mr. O'Higgins

Why do you not try to make up your mind.

The Chief Whip of Fine Gael can blaze around Wicklow or Kildare——

We blazed around them very successfully.

The Chief Whip of Fine Gael can blaze around Wicklow and Kildare and Deputy O'Higgins around Leix and Offaly but you will not misrepresent what I am saying in this House.

Mr. O'Higgins

You are misrepresenting us.

I did not misrepresent you.

Now I am just asking you which way you say we did it. Whichever way you like it we will deal with it.

Deputy Hickey—and I am afraid it is bad business—wants the money and credit of this State handed into the hands of this House. I ask Deputy O'Higgins and the Chief Whip of the Fine Gael Party would they entrust this House with £1,000 of their money in the morning? That is the question. I would even ask Deputy General MacEoin would he lend me £500 in the morning.

Not likely.

If I tried I think I would go borrowing.

Sure the Transport Union gave £50,000 to Fianna Fáil on one occasion.

I have listened to a number of wild suggestions about money and credit since this debate commenced. I do say that while Deputy Hickey may have offered his opinion in fairness and while he may hold that opinion I think he is not wise in that——

It is a good job he is not here to hear you saying that.

He would have heart failure if he heard it.

—— because we know what happened in America in the 1930's, when you had the banking institutions in that country in the hands of private individuals and in thehands of politicians. He also instanced the case of Germany and Italy and I want to answer that back by saying what end did Hitler ultimately achieve. What position eventually did Hitler achieve? Did he not die in a bunker in the heart of Berlin? I have nothing against Hitler for doing so.

Mr. O'Higgins

Is that certain? Some say he did not die there at all.

I have nothing against Hitler for doing so. That was his own opinion in doing that. And the end of Mussolini was to hang by his heels upside down from a petrol pump.

This is completely irrelevant. It does not arise on this Vote.

Yes, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, it does. It arises because in the course of the debate both the names of these two men have been mentioned in this House.

Mr. O'Higgins

But we are not responsible for them.

They were both mentioned and it is only fair that we should be given an opportunity to answer back. Deputy Costello, Junior, is a rising young man and according to the speech he made here this morning, a text-book economist. It is easy for him to stand up and suggest that our cost of living has risen to 126 points and that we have a higher cost of living than most countries of Europe. I do not subscribe to that view; but he did not quote the conditions that caused that cost of living, and he did not quote, for instance, the wages in any of the countries he mentioned. He quoted the cost of living figures, but he did not quote the wage increases or the living conditions in any of those countries.

Now I should have thought that a Party who seemed to be as interested in the welfare of the country as Fine Gael are would not have allowed over 100,000 people to emigrate during their period of office. When you speak of emigration you have to look at the picture as a whole from the famine timesalmost down to the present, and I think it is the height of cheap political publicity to come into this House, as Deputy McGilligan did, after spending the best part of 30 years in the service of his country, and trying to make cheap political propaganda of our rate of emigration or the rate of unemployment. Deputy McGilligan was Ministsr for Industry and Commerce in the first Cumann na nGaedheal Government. He was the most conservative Minister for Industry and Commerce that ever stood in the Government of this country.

Mr. O'Higgins

Glory be to God, did you ever hear of the Shannon scheme?

For political purposes, he has done a series of handsprings and he now stands left of the extreme left, but for political purposes only. I am surprised that some of the Labour representatives—because very good suggestions have come from Labour and very good support in the past—I am surprised that Labour should be led along the path on which Deputy McGilligan is displaying his agility as an acrobat, and I hope that Labour will not continue in that direction.

We had to leave you when you put on the standstill Orders.

Wait now, till I am finished. You might come back to it again.

You are going a long way.

I am not criticising you, Deputy, and I would not say one word against Labour.

You have to do something about the unemployed before we will join you.

Time makes strange bedfellows.

You might even come over to us.

Mr. O'Higgins

Deputy Cowan is sufficient.

The Deputy will be given an opportunity of saying something later on.

The best of men are but men at best. We heard a tirade from the Deputy who sat down about prices and the cost of living. While advocating cheaper prices and more efficient production he was advocating higher wages and better living conditions in the towns at the same time. I want to remind Deputy O'Hara that he supported a Government that in 1950 had the audacity to suggsst to the butchers of Dublin——

Mr. O'Higgins

He was not even in the House then.

Well his Party were in the House. At the outset he suggested to the country that the then Government were cutting down the cost of living by what they were pleased to call their dual price system. I propose to show the House that that dual price system was a cheap political racket. In the spring of 1950 when the butchers of Dublin demanded an increase for meat from the Minister for Industry and Commerce, when they were causing a bit of a clamour over the price they were paying for cattle in the Dublin cattle market, when they were likely to cause trouble for the Coalition, he sent a note to the butchers and called them to his office. He told them he realised they were paying a high price for cattle in the Dublin cattle market and he further realised they were not getting enough for their meat sold across the block, but he also told them it would not be politically convenient for him at the time to allow an increase in the price of beef, mutton and so on.

Mr. O'Higgins

That has been contradicted three times in this House and it is a damned lie, a damned lie.

I challenge that.

Deputy O'Higgins must withdraw that.

Mr. O'Higgins

I withdraw the word "lie" and substitute the word "untruth."

Is it a damned untruth?

Mr. O'Higgins

If the Minister for Finance wants to speak, he will get his opportunity, if he remains in the House long enough.

The Deputy used the expression "damned lie." He has risen and says he is withdrawing the word "lie" and substituting the word "untruth." I want to know what has happened to the word "damned."

Mr. O'Higgins

It is a great deal more parliamentary than the filthy language that the Minister for Health used in this House during the past week.

Deputy O'Higgins should not indulge in personalities.

Deputy O'Higgins can indulge in personalities outside the House but not inside.

Mr. O'Higgins

That is wonderful. Dissolve the Dáil and meet me in Longford-Westmeath.

I will meet the Deputy there, too. Do not worry. In the course of the debate I heard no suggestions, except from a few speakers, as to the remedy they would apply to present conditions— which are only very slightly different from those that obtained during the term of office of the former Government. Listening to the various speakers, one would imagine you had full employment then. Deputy Declan Costello had the effrontery to stand on the Front Bench to-day—I am glad to see that he disagrees with the view expressed heretofore by Deputy McGilligan—and say it was the duty of the Government to carry full employment. I want Deputy Costello to go back to the test book and examine it further. He will see that at the moment in the most prosperous countries in the world you have not full employment, and you never will. There are various factors that contribute towards that situation— people losing their jobs, jobs becoming outmoded, and so on. The three thingsthe Opposition are using at the moment are unemployment, emigration and the high cost of living.

Starvation.

Those three things have been used against us since we became the Government. The former Government carried, on an average, a pool of 55,000 people a year unemployed during their three and a half years of office. The figures are there in the Library for anyone who wants to see them. Notwithstanding that, they ran a deficit in the Budget and in the balance of payments. Notwithstanding the fact that they withdrew £120,000,000, doubled the national debt and borrowed £40,000,000 outside that, they spent less than we did on the capital side of our programme. They adopted what might be described as a valid expedient for classifying the Budget: it was only a book-keeping expedient. They have not the temerity to suggest that we are spending less on the capital account than they were. The capital account on our side of the Budget this year runs into something like £40,000,000. After all, if you devote £40,000,000 to capital services, it must be circulating somewhere within the framework.

Some of it is going to the Racing Board.

It is depressing in the extreme to hear some of the statements made here on our economic and fiscal policy. The last Deputy who spoke suggested that the workers were not satisfied with their wages from Bord na Móna. In the course of my duty as a Deputy—and if he were doing the same thing it would profit him more—I made inquiries from Bord na Móna regarding the payment and conditions of the workers and I was told by the chief engineer that 75 per cent. of the trade unions in this country were satisfied with the conditions and wages of Bord na Móna. That should be sufficient to nail that allegation. Just before that he said a man could earn £4 10s. at most. I disagree. They are earning up to £7 and some of them up to £9.

Why are they leaving it, then?

I will answer that, too. If you were in England and left your job, you could not get any employment benefit, because there they have direction of labour. The workers can leave it here.

They will not get anything from the exchange for six weeks.

They are not coerced as in England.

I never heard of a worker leaving a £7 a week job to go to the exchange.

I did not say that any individual did that.

You said he could sign at the exchange.

He can leave his job with Bord na Móna, and take up a different one if he wishes.

He said he could go to, the exchange and sign. He cannot in England.

I said there is direction of labour there. I want to emphasise that the workers have full freedom to leave their jobs here.

They are held up for six weeks.

Deputy O'Leary might cease interrupting and let Deputy Carter make his speech.

It is all right. I like to, be interrupted on a fair basis. I do not like misrepresentation in any shape or-form—and all we have had here, as Deputy Cowan said, since the discussion on the Vote on Account was initiated is misrepresentation. I submit that Fine Gael are responsible for that and responsible for wasting the taxpayers' money and holding up the business of the House, in order to try to cash in on the country's difficulties, as they cashed in in a previous year.

Who put them in diffi— culties?

They are the Party of expediency and they use the ring for what it is worth. They make use of all the political rules in the game to gather all the strength they can and they make use of the country and its position to belabour this Government or any other body which they think stand in their way to power. Power is all that counts with the Fine Gael Party and I want the Labour Party to realise that fact.

Mr. O'Higgins

Ha! Ha!

Deputy O'Higgins need not laugh. The crack is not so far away.

Mr. O'Higgins

The crack?

Does that mean the crack in Fianna Fáil?

Mr. O'Higgins

Does that mean that there will be a general election?

I have not heard any suggestion whatever to-day regarding subsidies—especially from the centre seats in the House. That is very significant. All last year, they belaboured us with the question of subsidies. Now, apparently, it is not popular in Fine Gael to mention subsidies so we hear nothing about them.

We are told that we should control prices. If you want to give the farmer a decent return for his labour and to encourage increased production, it is very difficult to control prices. If you want to give the wage-earner a decent wage, you cannot live in a planned hot-house economy. Fine Gael talk about agriculture and of what their Minister for Agriculture did during his term of office.

He was a very fine Minister for Agriculture.

His record does not bear that out.

It is there to be seen by anybody who wants to see it. The evidence is there.

I can give the House the figures for agriculture during Deputy Dillon's term of office as Minister: itmakes melancholy reading. The number of sows went down by 400 and the total pig production went down by 90,000.

It went up. You could not get a side of bacon in the country before Deputy Dillon took office.

The statistics are there to prove what Deputy Carter is saying.

There was not a rasher in the house until Deputy Dillon took office. You could not hear the squeal of a pig in the country.

We heard Deputy O'Higgins expound on the price of butter. I asked him if he would be in favour of subsidising the production of butter: he did not concur. He talked about the present price of 4/2 per lb. and said it was an exorbitant price to extract from the consumer. He made that statement in Dublin. When he goes down to his constituency of Laois-Offaly, or to the country, he will talk about the poor price which farmers are getting for their milk. Whether you are running a business or a farm, or any other type of undertaking, you must face certain facts. If you want to give the farmer 1/6, 1/7 or ? a gallon for his milk, you must, on the costings of butter, charge 4/2 a lb. retail for it. The 5d. a lb. represents the cost of production. Deputies can take note of that.

The objection is to paying 4/2 per lb. for New Zealand butter.

I will come to that. It was not until after Deputy Dillon's period of office that that situation came about. He tried to tell the farmers that he would give them a five-year plan of 1/- a gallon for their milk—a plan to which the farmers were not inclined to agree. We found that we were in the position that we had to import New Zealand or Danish butter, as the case might be——

And put the farmers in Mountjoy. That really happened.

If you had your way you would confiscate their lands.

Oh, are you there? Idid not know you were there at all. You are becoming so small, Mr. Minister, that I did not see you.

Deputy Hickey wants to overthrow the whole system.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Minister for Finance is behind the pile of books over there.

If you want to pay the farmer a decent price for his milk you do not want to undercut the whole market by the sale of foreign butter. If you want to see that money operating within the country, and the farmer and his working man getting a decent return for his labours, you require to pay farmers an economic price for their butter. Butter is the only commodity, within the whole range of commodities, over which the Government have control. One would imagine that the Fianna Fáil Party were composed of a crowd of wicked persons who wanted to tag our people, to invest money abroad to the detriment of our people, to increase the cost of living and to do all the evil things in life without any consideration for our people or our country.

Since I became a member of this House I have listened to a spate of propaganda from the Opposition Benches—propaganda on the lines which I have mentioned above. I do not think that such tactics are conducive to good business in the country. I do not think it is calculated to help our economy or to help the unemployed. I do not think that the theories put forward by the Opposition are meant to cut down the emigration figures and, in general, I do not think that their suggestions are in any way helpful. Those tactics of belabouring and lambasting the Government for this, that and every other evil can be carried too far. That is why I suggest that the time of this House is not being put to the best possible use. If the time of this House is taken up in order to promote the prestige of the Fine Gael Party, it is a bad day's work. I want the various other Parties which comprised the former Government to consider that position. We are not elected to this House to shower bouquetson any Party, but we like fair and honest criticism and, if a helpful suggestion is made, I think it can be said that our Party, at any rate, give heed to it. What is the suggestion for our difficulties at the moment? What is the suggestion to help our agricultural exports? What is the suggestion to help to boost production in agriculture?

A new concrete apron at Baldonnel.

What is the suggestion to absorb some of the unemployed? I notice that, recently, the unemployed carried a placard which read: "We want work at trade union rates." That is all right in a free economy, but it did not suggest what sort of work the man wanted, whether or not he was qualified to do it and how many hours he would work. No matter what Fine Gael may try to put over on the electorate about our assets abroad, which, by the way, represent only one year's purchases from abroad——

I do not care what Deputy MacBride tries to slip across us, as an ally of the Fine Gael Party. He had not the courage to stand at the head of his own Party and advocate that policy when he would have a chance of, going before the electorate at a subsequent election and seek the suffrages of the people in support of it. Why did you not do that in 1948 when you got a mandate? Instead, you came in here and started whining and then put your policy in abeyance.

The Deputy might use the third person.

The people of Ireland will not go into a corner to whine because Deputy MacBride suggests that this Government are not facing up to their responsibilities, because they are leaving money abroad. We get all this false propaganda and I am fed up listening to it, as are a great many other people. As a member of the former Government, Deputy MacBride increased our assets abroad. Since then he has told us a good deal withregard to the control of money and credit—so much, in fact, it is rather fortunate that this House does not control money because the people of this country would go a-borrowing and a-sorrowing as a result.

There are rules in every game, as Depnty Larkin has on occasion said, but there are also rules governing the rules as to how the game should be played. The Minister for Finance, when he came here in 1951, had to undertake one of the most unpleasant tasks any man in a democracy ever shouldered. He had to defend his policy from every angle of the House in his efforts, with the help of his advisers, to put the country in such a position that we could do something for tho unemployed, for the people who emigrate and for the people who are seeking houses—all the people in whom Fine Gael seem to be so interested. If everything goes well for the future, we should be in a position now to consolidate our gains. No matter what advance an army makes, if they have to advance in the face of adverse conditions they have to consolidate their ground before they can make any further spectacular advance.

The Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Kennedy, was misrepresented by Deputy Declan Costello in his references to the Army. Deputy Kennedy did not suggest conscription for a moment. He did not suggest that every young man should go into the Army, but he did suggest that any young man in good health, whose physical fitness would suit him for Army service, could conveniently join the Army. I see nothing wrong with the Curragh or its environs. I spent a while there myself and I am not ashamed of it. I can recommend our Army to any unemployed man from the age of 17 upwards. Deputy MacBride would make use of this trouble we were faced with from 1931 on——

This crisis.

You nearly said it.

It is not a crisis or anything like it. It would be a crisis, wereit not for the fact that Fianna Fáil have in the past displaced a knack of turning hard circumstances to good account. That is what is wrong with Fine Gael—they see that time is on our side.

Mr. O'Higgins

And Father Time has a scythe.

You are wasting a lot of it.

Deputies opposite have wasted quite enough time since this discussion opened.

The Minister is looking worried.

That is quite untrue. I am full of admiration for the speech Deputy Carter is making. I think it is an excellent speech.

We need to consider our standard of living and our unemployed and those who are emigrating. We require to look at our efficiency. But there is no suggestion from Fine Gael as to how we could improve our agricultural methods and our output and what we could do to create more efficiency. The trouble in agriculture, as I see it, is that the more prosperous a farmer becomes, the more people leave the land, because the more farmers become mechanised, the less labour they require. That is what is happening in agriculture to-day.

So you want poverty amongst the farmers?

Let Deputy Giles not try to misrepresent me because he will not succeed, either inside or outside the House.

Will Deputy Carter please continue with his statement?

The more prosperous a farmer becomes, the more mechanised his methods, the less labour he will require. The policy that Fianna Fáil implemented back in 1932, the policy of industry, is the only alternative of absorbing that labour. I have heardDeputies speaking about housing conditions, about living conditions, about wages and hours of work. One would think they never heard of Irish Shipping Limited, the Cement Company, the sugar factories, Bord na Móna or any of these semi-State institutions founded under the patronage of Fianna Fáil and which went ahead with the provision of our requirements.

I want Deputies opposite to remember that, unless we can produce something which we can sell abroad at an economic price, other than agricultural produce, it is going to be tough for industry. One of the richest countries in the world, America, is standing now where England stood 100 years ago. We hear the hardboiled American Republican businessman advocating free trade, if you do not mind; and we have articles appearing in various magazines suggesting that America should do now what John Bright and Richard Cobden did for England 100 years ago, that is, go back to free trade. The substance of their argn-ment—there is a good deal in it; as a matter of fact, I am not qualified even to discuss it—is that trade is not a one-way street. It flows to and fro and that is what I want some of the Opposition Deputies to remember when they talk about our trade and our sterling balances abroad. Trade is not a one-way street. As a nation we have survived for a long time in the face of divers difficulties, but our survival was not attributable to the whining tactics of Fine Gael. That will not help us. If we want to survive we will have to become efficient in our methods of production just the same as the Germans. In that respect there is no substitute for hard work.

Now you are talking.

There is no substitute in this or any other country for hard work, and I should like to get that into the Deputy's head before he speaks. No doubt the workers of the past were exploited and the workers of the present day would be exploited, but it is up to us, as workers, to acquaint ourselves with the outline ofthe job we undertake in order to become as efficient in it as possible and to work for the people who employ us with an eye on production and on the methods by which we finish an article and so on.

I detest some of the speeches deprecating the morale of our people. The morale of our people stood fast in the face of foreign oppression for 700 years and I think the Opposition are doing a bad day's work now by harping on the wrong side of life. The country has passed through a difficult period. I am sure that as a Party and a Government Fianna Fáil are not unaware of that. They do not need to be told. They have their advisers to advise them in regard to industry, commerce and agriculture. It is only by realising that efficiency means hard work that we will get out of the difficulties in which we find ourselves with regard to trade.

It was grand during and subsequent to the war when a Minister for Agriculture could go across to England and make a bargain with the British Government at fixed prices. What is known as the bulk buying system obtained then. A Minister for Agriculture was reasonably sure, when he returned, that the home price of the commodity would be the equivalent of what it would realise abroad. He could give a reasonable undertaking to producers to go ahead and produce. He was not required to go to the London market, stand over a commodity and sell it at a competitive price.

Some of the farmers and business men who make up the Fine Gael Party ought to realise those facts. They ought to realise that it is much easier to go over to London, sit at a table and make a bargain than it is to stand over a commodity and sell it in competition with Danes, New Zealanders, Dutch or any other foreign competitors. At the moment the British people are even becoming selective in the meat they use. They are complaining about too much fat and too much weight in the meat. But they are under the bulk buying system and they have got to abide by it. How long will they continue to abideby that if they can buy in a free market?

The live cattle trade might help us in the British market. That is one branch of our business which has helped us so far but the pace has been speeded up in England to the extent that the British customer will not in the future buy a, four and a, half or a five year old fattened bullock if he can buy a two year old for baby beef. Therefore, the British consumer has become selective. He will look for baby beef as he did in the early years.

The Deputy does not know what beef is. A four year old fattened bullock is the tenderest meat you could eat.

It is not as tender as baby beef. I am not finding any fault with the four year olds.

I know what I am talking about.

I know it is quite good beef. I did not cast any reflection on the four year old cattle and the Deputy should not misrepresent me.

I know what I am talking about.

Deputy Carter on the Vote on Account.

These are some of the things we will have to study if we are to make progress in regard to agriculture. Similarly, if we are to make progress in regard to industry there is no substitute for method and hard work.

Mr. A. Byrne

We are told that the Vote on Account for £30,000,000 is to put the Government over the next ten weeks. During that ten weeks the House will stand adjourned. Deputies will have no opportunity of discussing the Estimates of the various Departments. There will be a sort of a closure on. Deputies will remember that on the last occasion—this time 12 months, I think—when this House was adjourned the price of butter was increased. What we fear is thatthey want to get the House adjourned to increase the price of something else without consulting the Dáil.

On the 21st May I asked the members of the House to come with me and see for themselves the queues of people lined up at our labour exchanges. It was regrettable that waited until the people concerned came away from the exchanges and came out into the open to show the way they were being treated before this House woke up to the difficulties of the unemployed and the conditions under which they were living. I told the House on the 21st May that I noticed a queue of from 500 to 600 yards long waiting for over an hour at the female branch of the labour exchanges in Victoria Street. You have not yet seen the unemployement that is among the female workers in this city, and I would suggest that those of you who go to Amiens Street station should go around by the employment exchange in Beresford Place any morning and see the large number of women workers signing up, seeking employment and hoping that the Government will do something for them. You have only to go around the corner into Gardiner Street and see the employment exchange there aud the thousands of workers that are waiting and hoping that you will do. something for them. Again, go over to Werburgh Street and see what goes. on there.

Certain members of the House developed an interest when the organised workers came out into O'Connell Street and made their appearance felt. It was regrettable that that had to happen. But, at least, it has succeeded in drawing the attention of this House and other public bodies to the fact that there is a very serious emergency position in Dublin City to-day among the unemployed. I am going to express the hope that this House will not adjourn until it is satisfied that that emergency is being properly handled and that such large numbers of unemployed as we have are being attended to and something done for them.

It must be remembered that the Minister for Social Welfare said it wasnot the intention to increase unemployment benefits. That was stated in reply to questions by Deputy Kyne and other members of the Labour Party, and later on to myself. We implore the Minister to give an increase to help the unemployed to overcome the difficulties which they are meeting while they are passing through these bad days; something to help them to meet the increased cost of living, of which we all know.

As far as unemployment is concerned, the last speaker and a Deputy behind me spoke about meat and the cost of meat. I want to tell the members of this House that in Dublin City meat has been removed from the tables of a very large number of people and especially from the tables of those whom you see marching in procession. One or two might be able to provide a small piece of meat for the Sunday table, but not many. Members spoke about butter and milk and the prices of these commodities, but I want to say that some of our workers in the City of Dublin do not know the taste of your 4/2 butter. We find that margarine production has increased due to the fact that those who used to use butter when they had good jobs and believed in giving the best to their families now have to find a substitute in margarine. I appeal to the Government to wake up and see what is going on.

In Dublin, we have a very good corporation, a good city manager and splendid officials, and they recently got together and they are producing relief schemes for the unemployed. That is all very fine, and I welcome them and I say they must come to give that temporary employment to put the workers over the emergency period. But these schemes can last only a short time. The cleaning of ditches, widening or concreting laneways and the making of playgrounds will be all over in six months, and I want to know what is the Government going to do about the thousands of unemployed when the relief schemes are over. Will they increase the grants for housing?

I want to be fair to both Governments. Since this State was founded both Governments were very energeticabout the housing position in this city because they felt they became heirs to an old tenement, broken down system, which was neglected for many years before the State was founded. They had to give housing grants but now these are not sufficient to encourage municipalities to build houses at rents which people can pay. We are housing people under differential rents and under what are called economic rents, and we have some thousands of young married couples with one or two children who are not eligible at all for municipal houses. We have a public draw at Christmas and Easter, and one of the troubles is the fact that the Government gives only £250 of a grant towards a house for newly-weds or persons with one or two children. For the ordinary houses they give us grants up to £800—for houses for families. But if the Government would go further into the matter of making grants available and if they would encourage private builders and companies by giving better grants and help young married couples as well as those with larger families to get houses, I think they would be doing valuable work for the city—much more valuable than temporary relief schemes. We will always have to have relief schemes. They must go on to relieve the emergency of the day. We all talk as if all the unemployment concerned those engaged in the building trade, skilled and unskilled, but what are we going to do for the storemen, the shop assistants, and those men whose industries have-slackened or closed down? And what about all the other types of trade? The docks were never so bad at any period of our history. At the North Wall and the South Wall you will find numbers of men unemployed and asking what is going to be done for them. Even the shipbuilding industry is suffering. Six months ago, I asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce what he was going to do about getting us steel. I was on a board in Dublin which gave £530,000 worth of shipbuilding away to a British dockyard simply because we had no agreement, or if we had we were not able to enforce it, and we could not get the steel or materials at proper prices from English manufacturers. That is a casewhere the trade agreement broke down badly, and almost closed down the Irish dockyard and left people unemployed who had to follow their work to England and are now trying to send back half their wages to keep their families.

All these are things which should be done immediately. I want to impress on the Government and on my colleagues that there is a serious emergency problem in the City of Dublin to-day. Many of the people who are unemployed and drawing the small benefits which they get and which the Government refuses to increase are in new houses. They had accepted higher rents than formerly and a good many are now in difficulties, deprived of employment and wages and the ways and means of paying for their houses. I think the Government has been asleep for a long time. It is very hard to wake them up to tackle this emergency. In any case I found it difficult to waken up local authorities to face the emergency.

May I draw attention to a question asked on Thursday, the 21st May, and reported in column 2206 of the Dáil Debates in which the member for Dublin North-West asked the Taoiseach if he would state whether any proposals were being made to bring about a reduction in the growing unemployment in the City of Dublin and, if so, what was the nature of these proposals. Remember that it is two months ago since that question was asked. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach gave a review of the possible work that might be undertaken—the building of houses, etc.—and then he went on to say in the last paragraph of the reply:—

"Finally as regards industrial development by private enterprise, the Minister for Industry and Commerce has at present before him 33 proposals which, on the information so far available, seem likely to lead to the development of new industries, or the extension of existing industries in Dublin City and County."

That reply was given two months ago and we have not heard one wordsince about the 33 proposals which on the information then available seemed likely to give suitable employment. I want to know whether we were being deceived when we were told that there were 33 proposals for new industrial development? If not, will the Minister tell us who is holding up the 33 proposals that might provide decent employment for those who are now anxiously waiting for it?

I said on that occasion, as reported in column 2259 of the Official Debates:—

"The most important and immediate problems this Government has to face are unemployment, emigration and the cost of living and the sooner they face these problems, the better it will be for themselves and the country, because people can have patience for a long time but when they see their families suffering their patience becomes exhausted. Therefore, unemployment is the most immediate problem they have to face."

Their patience is now becoming exhausted. Deputies will now realise why I said that it was difficult to wake up the Government. They have slumbered, day after day, and week after week, without making any effort to increase unemployment benefits, unemployment assistance or increase the grants for relief. Nothing was done until the people made their voice effective.

I ask the Government now, before the Dáil breaks up—I understand it is to adjourn for ten weeks and it may be that most men are anxious to get back to look after their farms—that some emergency committee, a skeleton Dáil, if you like, of 20, 30 or 40 members should be ready to be called together to deal as an emergency matter with immediate problems.

A new Dáil.

Mr. A. Byrne

Perhaps something of that kind. I tried to avoid bringing politics into this discussion. I do not want to tell my colleagues that the 6d. loaf is now 9d. I do not want to remind them that they gave £140,000 of relief to the dance hall proprietors at the same time as they voted for anincrease in the price of bread. If they wish, I shall go on to deal with these matters, but I intended to speak only for about ten minutes. May I say that I endorse the remarks of another speaker, who yesterday raised his voice in protest against the practice of Deputies standing up and speaking for an hour? What has gone wrong with the Dáil when a Deputy is not able to tell us what he wants in a quarter of an hour and then sit down and give other people a chance of getting in? It was thought that this House would be able to adjourn at 2 p.m. to-day, but instead, a proposal has been made that we should sit until 12 o'clock.

I do not want to delay the Dáil but I could not but avail of this opportunity to tell the Dáil and the Government that the most important problem they have to face is unemployment. I heard a Dublin Deputy repudiating a statement by somebody else who suggested a new way of finding employment, that our people should be induced or encouraged to go into the Army. We are all proud of our Army but it should not be regarded as a substitute for employment for men who want work to earn good wages to keep their families. I understand that the Army offers a very fine way of life to young men but no attempt should be made to introduce any form of conscription by refusing to give young men employment or to submit them to hardships of any kind in order to force them into the Army. I remember when a Fianna Fáil cumann in the city passed a resolution expressing the opinion that conscription was the only remedy for emigration. That resolution was passed by a Fianna Fáil cumann in Dublin City some years ago and the idea apparently has not yet got out of some of their minds. The resolution was from the Fintan——

A Deputy

Rathmines.

Mr. A. Byrne

Quite right, from a cumann in the constituency of the Minister for Finance. They carried that resolution that conscription was the only remedy for emigration.

Would you prefer that they should join the British Army?

Mr. A. Byrne

Deputy Killilea has given me the chance for which I have been waiting for a long time. Perhaps you would allow me to deal with an interjection intended to hurt me and my family. A member of the Seanad some time ago stated that Deputy Alfie Byrne voted for conscription. I afterwards went to the trouble of getting the corraspondence and the records from the British House of Commons which showed that the whole Irish Party, with Deputy Alfie Byrne, voted against conscription for Ireland. I thank Deputy Killilea for giving me the opportunity of having that entered on the records of the House. I think Deputy Killilea was on the platform when Senator Andrew Clarkin stated, in the course of the by-election in North-West Dublin, that Deputy Alfie Byrne voted for conscription. He knew that was a lie. The whole Irish Party led by John Redmond and John Dillon voted against conscription.

Perhaps the Deputy would get back to the Vote on Account.

Mr. A. Byrne

I would have finished five minutes ago only for the interruptions that were made with the hope that they would hurt. I shall go no further. If I went any further I would be merely repeating the statements I made in the last two months when I invited my colleagues to go to Werburgh Street to see the females signing up there and to go to Victoria Street and Gardiner Street to see the males signing. One does not have to wait for a demonstration on O'Connell Bridge every week to see what is happening and how our people are being treated. Thousands of unemployed are looking for decent jobs and decent employment. They should not be emigrating to England as they have been doing in their thousands over the last 12 months. We appear here to wipe our hands completely of these young boys and girls when they leave our shores. That is not playing the game in relation to Irish people in charge of educational matters in England. It is not playing the game to allow our emigrants to go over there and give them no help when they become unemployed.I think it is disgraceful the way this country allows its emigrants to be treated. After all, they are only an hour's journey by air and three hours' journey by water from their native land.

Were you not told by way of parliamentary question and answer——

This is not cross-examination, and Deputy Byrne is entitled to make his speech without interruption.

Mr. A. Byrne

I would like to ask Deputy Gallagher a question.

Deputy Byrne is not entitled to ask questions.

Mr. A. Byrne

It was alleged that I voted for conscription.

(Interruptions.)

We have had enough about conscription and the Irish Party. It is quite irrelevant.

Mr. A. Byrne

With all respect, there was an interjection.

I was helping the Deputy. I was only three years old then so I could not say what the Deputy did in 1916.

Mr. O'Higgins

Before this debate concludes, most Deputies will, I think, have expressed their views in relation to the serious position now facing the country. Some criticisms have been levelled at the Opposition by Deputies on the other side of the House suggesting that we have been obstructing the Government in the execution of their programme and in the implementation of their policies. If that criticism is levelled at the objections we raised in relation to the Government's policies, then it is well founded: it will be recalled that two years ago when the present Government embarked on the financial policy embodied in the Budget of 1952, and repeated in the last Budget, we on this side of the House foretold the sequel there would be in unemployment, emigration and hunger amongst our people. We arenot now being wise after the event.

In April, 1952, when what is called the "hunger Budget" was introduced we stated that if those policies were implemented, unemployment would come to this city, unemployment would hit the rural areas and would, in turn, breed emigration and a general economic recession in trade. The Government cannot complain now, two years later, that we are speaking about unemployment because we see it taking place; that we are speaking about hunger and hardship because we see them taking place. As day follows night, all that had to follow on the financial and economic policies initiated by the present Government two years ago.

I do not want to travel over the ground that was covered in the autumn of 1951, and the spring of 1952 by the Leader of the Opposition when he was endeavouring to get the Government to have some economic and financial common sense. Suffice to say that in the autumn of 1951, when the Central Bank Report of that year was published, advocating a restriction of credit, a reduction in purchasing power, a reduction in subsidies, a reduction in imports and a reduction in employment, and when the Irish Presscommenced to write editorials praising the views of the Central Bank and the Minister for Finance published his famous White Paper underwriting the sentiments contained in the Central Bank Report, the Leader of the Opposition asked the Government whether or not they had gone crazy. He pointed out that if the sentiments contained in that infamous document, the Central Bank Report, were accepted as Government policy serious visible harm would be done to the economy of this nation.

But the Government paid no attention to the warnings given by Deputy Costello in the autumn of 1951 and the spring of 1952. They went ahead and implemented in totothe recommendations of the Central Bank Report by their Budget of 1952. I pay no attention to the denial made here last night by the Taoiseach when he said that his Government did not advocate and was in no way responsible for the restrictionof credit in this State. I am prepared to accept that the Taoiseach makes that statement, sincerely believing it to be true, but he says it in ignorance because every responsible statement made by the Minister for Finance on financial matters in the autumn of 1951 and throughout the spring of 1952 was directed towards the restriction of credit in this country.

That suggestion was contained in the Minister's White Paper. It was contained in the many statements he made on financial matters, and it was represented to those who controlled credit in this State that that represented the new financial policy of the Fianna Fáil Government: credit should be restricted; excess purchasing power should be taken out of the pockets of the people; that, in turn, would correct the adverse balance of trade and everything in the garden would be lovely. All the hardship has come about because the banks were prompted to take that action.

I recollect the Minister for Finance in this House in July, 1951, when he had just become Minister for Finance, making his first statement on policy, a statement in which, having attacked what had been done by his predecessors, he proceeded to set out five or six points towards which his policy must be directed. That entire speech had one vein running through it: the three years that had just gone before represented the nation's "Rake's Progress"; we had all been spending too much; there was too much money from too many sources in the nation's economy; wages were too high; credit was too high; from every source our people were getting too much money and that excess of purchasing power had caused—so the Minister described it—a staggering adverse trade balance in our trade with Britain.

On borrowed money.

Mr. O'Higgins

If the Minister saws that, then he is more irresponsible than I had conceived he could be. The Minister who says: "on borrowed money" is the Minister who, as Minister for Finance in June, 1951, took over the entire Marshall Aid loan to this country and has administered itsince, apart from the money that was spent on the purchase of land reclamation machinery.

That is quite untrue.

Mr. O'Higgins

That is completely true.

The figures will contradict it.

Mr. O'Higgins

If the Minister has a faulty recollection, I refer him to a speech made by the Taoiseach about nine weeks ago, I think during the by-elections, in which he admitted that, when his Government came into office I think he said £26,000,000 of Marshall Aid was available and was being administered. But, in any event, the position two years ago, was that the Minister for Finance, by the speeches which he made and by the statements of policy which he uttered, called for a restriction of credit and he got it in no uncertain way. The summer of 1951, and the autumn that followed, were bleak periods for the people of this country, for decent, honest, hard-working business people who, having received, in good faith, accommodation and credit from banking circles here, found demands made upon them which were a sentence of insolvency.

I charge the present Minister with being responsible for those demands by creating in the minds of banking circles the fallacious belief that the economic and financial conditions of the country demanded those restrictive policies. Everything that has been done since by the Minister, and other members of the Government, has confirmed ths people in the belief that the commercial banks, the Central Bank and the Government have gone hand in hand playing a ring of rosies around the credit of this country.

It was idle for the Taoiseach to come in here last night and say: "I knew nothing about it; I was not responsible for it and my hands are clean". That is as it may be, but his Government's Ministers, in their policies of the last two years, have been responsible 100 per cent. for the restriction of credit in this country since they came into office.

I know that it is far too easy, whentalking about banks and talking about credit, to err on the side of advocating extreme measures on matters of that kind; but I do want to express, however, this personal view that our situation to-day in this country, and indeed the situation in other countries also must drive the people to this conclusion, that it is suicide for any State to permit a banking policy to run counter to the State's own economic policy. Once that happens, only harm can ensue.

I give the present Government full credit for believing that, when they took up office, they desired to maintain employment, at least on the same level as it was when we were in office. I give them credit for believing that they desired to continue a policy which had brought greater production in agriculture and in industry and that, if they could manage it, they want to see this country progressing, emigration dwindling and employment increasing.

I think it would be quite impossible for any political Party in this country to hold or to follow a policy contrary to that; but I do blame them for this, that by irresponsible speeches, by a desire to wound the personality of Deputy McGilligan, they created, in an irresponsible manner, the belief, amongst commercial banking circles here and outside, that Ireland was insolvent, that the country was heading for the rocks and that those who had money invested here had better look to their money. In the last two years, our conditions of under-investment, the fall in employment and increasing emigration, demanded a credit policy which would pump into the nation's economy millions and millions of pounds while the Government have allowed the commercial banks to follow a contrary policy. That is wrong, and whatever economic or financial structure permits that to take place must be changed, and I believe it will be changed.

Now, we are reaping the harvest, a bitter, bleak harvest. Unemployment stalks this land; emigration is as bad now as it was during the days of the famine. There is uncertainty in business, there is doubt as to the future, and the only concern the Governmenthave is how to weather the storm. That kind of situation cannot last. Despite the very boastful sentiments expressed by the Taoiseach last night, people are not impressed. There is no Government Minister, and no Government Deputy, who can suggest that the people there ever consulted with regard to the policy which is now being pursued by the present Government. Everyone knows that they were not, and everyone knows that, prior to the General Election of 1951 and during the course of that campaign, not a single leader of Fianna Fáil told the people that, if they were elected, credit would be restricted, that taxation would be increased, that subsidies would be abolished and that food would be made dearer. Not one part, and not one iota, of the policy pursued in the last two years was submitted to the decision of the people of this country.

It is under those circumstances that we are accused of obstruction, if you please, when for the last two years we have consistently stated here that by every constitutional means in our power we would prevent the present Government from pursuing a policy which they never put before the people. On the odd occasions, by the coincidence of events, when the people have been consulted, has there been any doubt as to their answer? In the last two years we have had the discreditable sight of a Government, without support, in Ireland clinging on desperately to office in the face of an angry people. We are not going to let that continue, no matter what the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance or any other member of Fianna Fáil may think, and we do not believe that the people will permit it to continue. Ireland could not afford a continuance of the present policies for very much longer.

The unemployment that exists now is, as I have said, the direct result of the policy of Fianna Fáil. That is now accepted by every member of Fianna Fáil, including the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach because the very announcement of relief schemes is the greatest admission of failure that any Government can make. There is no other Government in the world that could say it hasfollowed a sound policy when, after two years of coming into office, it has to consider seriously the imposition of relief schemes in order to deal with unemployment.

I wonder does the Taoiseach know what is going on. I wonder is the Taoiseach kept informed as to what happening in this country. I wonder does the Minister for Finance not know, not realise, that his policy has been as harmful as it could be in the last two years. Remember the phrase contained in the Central Bank Report. Remember the "unusually favourable level of employment" to which they referred in 1951 and which they thought created an excess demand for the import of goods from Great Britain and caused an undue amount of money to be in the pockets of the people. Is there now a favourable level of employment in this country? We know there is not.

Does the Minister for Finance not realise that his advisers in 1951 committed him to a policy aimed at reducing employment? Does he not realise that he has been prodded and pushed by Victorian economists into the greatest mistake that has ever been made? Unemployment has increased. The purchasing power of our people has been reduced. Our effective demand for imports has disappeared. We now balance our trading books with Britain. I am quite certain that the Central Bank Report for this year will contain chapter after chapter of flowery praise for the economic and financial policy that brought about this balance of trade with Britain. If there is a soft spot in the heart of the scribe who will write that report he may say: "Of course it is unfortunate to have to say that unemployment has increased, that the cost of living has gone up, that emigration has been doubled, that hardship and hunger stalk the land but, after all, some disadvantages must be suffered in order to balance our trade with other countries."

I suggest very sincerely to the Minister that he has been codded up to his teeth, that he was codded two years ago and that he has embarked this country on the road to economic and financial ruin. Now, two years later,when he finds that the policy he started and the things he did necessitate famine relief schemes again in Ireland, it is time for him to take stock of what is going on.

Painting the walls around Dublin City, putting down new roads leading to nowhere, putting up watch towers throughout Ireland—is that to be the economic policy of Ireland's Government in 1953? One hundred years ago, in 1850, a British Government was doing exactly the same thing for exactly the same reason—because their economic policy had failed in Ireland. To-day, 100 years later, after a period of two years in office, an Irish Minister for Finance has to bring in relief schemes to undo the harm caused by his own policy. I do not believe that the people will stand for it. I do not care what constituency the Government desire to consult, they will find the answer always the same—get out and stay out. That is because you cannot play a confidence trick on the Irish people and hope to get away with it.

I am reminded of one other matter that I want to refer to before I conclude. It is perhaps merely by way of reply to a matter that used to be associated, 12 months or so ago, with our debates on financial matters. This entire financial craziness that has been called a policy by the Taoiseach and the Minister in the last two years was embarked upon initially in a desire to injure the prestige and harm the reputation of the finest Finance Minister Ireland ever had, Deputy McGilligan, a man whose wealth of outlook and economic knowledge transcends by far that of any of these economic cranks that now are associated with the Minster for Finance.

One of the little brickbats that used to be thrown at Deputy McGilligan was made by Deputy Browne but thrown by the Minister for Finance. It was that the Budget of 1951 was a faked Budget—as harmful a charge as could be made against any Minister, a charge which I believe was made well knowing it to be untrue.

Luckily, those who are responsible for the publication of the financial accounts of this State are not politcal partisans or anxious to make a case.They publish in our official records facts as they find them, without gloss, without commentary, without underlining, without emphasising. If any Deputy, particularly Deputies on the opposite benches, would repeat now, sincerely believing it to be true that the 1951 Budget was faked, they should look at the Appropriation Accounts for the year in question—1951-52—where they will find very interesting figures. These accounts of our public services which, as Deputies are aware, represent the history of what happened to the money raised by the Budget and spent during the year, tell the story in respect of the financial year after it has concluded, and they tell it better than any politically-minded Minister can do it. In the 1951-52 accounts, Deputies will find that there was a surplus of £6.1 million.

There was no surplus.

Mr. O'Higgins

Do not talk damned nonsense. There was a surplus of £6,000,000. Out of that surplus, provision was intended to be made and was designed in the Budget for the payment of the Civil Service award amounting to £2,035,000. Deducting that sum from the Budget surplus, there was a net surplus of £4,300,000 which, as was stated in the accounts, was certified by the Comptroller and Auditor-General. That speaks more clearly and more cogently than anything the Minister or Deputy Dr. Browne, the man who made the brickbats which the Minister threw, may say.

The Comptroller and Auditor-General has nothing to do with the Budget.

Mr. O'Higgins

The accounts for the year 1951-52 published by the Minister's Department contained this statement——

Deputy McGilligan's Budget was a faked Budget.

Mr. O'Higgins

Do not talk nonsense. You do not represent anyone. You told enough lies outside.

TheDeputy must not say in this House in connection with any Deputy that he told lies. You must not charge a Deputy with telling lies.

Mr. O'Higgins

I said outside.

Inside or outside the House.

Mr. O'Higgins

Then I will say that he told untruths. The following statement was contained in the accounts for 1951-52——

(Interruption.)

Deputy Dr. Browne should not be interrupting.

Mr. O'Higgins

I do not know whether Deputy Dr. Browne is junior to me or whether I am junior to him. Both of us may be adolescent, but we know that when a statement like this is made: "The total amount to be surrendered at the end of the financial year...", it means that the sum to be surrendered is in excess of the requirements of the Minister.

It does not mean anything of the sort.

Mr. O'Higgins

At the end of the financial year 1951-52. (Interruptions.) Deputy Dr. Browne in smutty little places outside has been telling untruths. If he remains in the House he will hear the truth, whether he likes it or not, which will keep him from running around telling untruths. At the end of the financial year 1951-52, the total surplus on the Budget, excluding the payment to the civil servants of £2,000,000, amounted to £4,300,000. That was the surplus which was contained in the financial accounts of this State for the financial year 1951-52.

Why did you quit if you were so well off?

Mr. O'Higgins

We did not quit. The people did not want us to quit. A few bell-boys put us out, but the people will put us back. These financial accounts were published on the 14th February, 1953, with the authority of and under the name of the Comptrollerand Auditor-General. They were published some nine or ten months after these lies were spread, and this irresponsibility was indulged in by the Minister for Finance.

The Deputy should not refer to lies.

Mr. O'Higgins

I have not mentioned the word "lies."

Mr. O'Higgins

If I did it was a slip and I will substitute the word "untruths."

The Deputy has no control over his tongue.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Minister obviously wants to prevent the truth coming out, but he will not. It is quite clear now, and it has been clear since last February that the last inter-Party Budget yielded a surplus of over £4,000,000, although out of the revenue raised by that Budget the Civil Service award amounting to over £2,000,000 had to be paid. These facts now known to us and to the people of the country must have been known to the Minister for Finance when making his speeches about budgeting for a deficit. He must have known that the revenue accounts which he took over were yielding a surplus of over £6,000,000 and a net surplus of over £4,000,000. We may then ask why, knowing that, he stated the contrary. I would be stopped by the Chair again if I referred to the way in which the people outside would describe the Minister's speeches. Knowing that he had a surplus of over £4,000,000, why did he say that the Budget was not yielding a surplus?

I had no surplus. The Deputy does not understand what he is reading.

Mr. O'Higgins

I am telling you that the net sum which had to be surrendered at the end of the financial year 1951-52, amounted to £4,300,000.

We will deal with that some time.

Mr. O'Higgins

We have no doubt that, were it not for the Supplementary Estimates and the codology indulged in during the ensuing financial year, the net sum to be surrendered at the end of the financial year 1952-53, would have totalled £10,000,000. Of course, the Minister for Finance, carrying over that surplus having indulged in over-taxation last year and continued it this year if he is there next year he will be able to say: "I reduced taxation all around the place; what a good boy am I". If that kind of political trick commends itself to the Minister, it certainly will not commend itself to the people.

There is one personal matter which I should like to deal with before I conclude. Deputy Carter, I think, in ignorance and I hope so, repeated here some time ago, a statement originally made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce with regard to the control of meat prices in the spring of 1951. That statement was contradicted on three occasions by my father, who was at that time Minister for Industry and Commerce. The statement of Deputy Carter is completely inaccurate and untrue, and if he cares to inquire from what he believes to be the source of it, he will find it to be untrue.

If I might intervene——

Is this in order? Deputy Everett has been called on.

Deputy Everett has been called on.

During this debate the Minister for External Affairs mentioned my name in connection with the sterling assets being increased in 1950. That has been dealt with by other speakers. What I want to refer to are matters that the Minister did not mention. He did not refer to the fact that in 1950 we had to remove Orders to keep the wages of the workers down to a very low level. He omitted to mention that we remedied the position in which the workers employed by public bodies had received something more than 2d. per day as an increase to meetthe cost of living. He omitted to refer to the fact that during that period up to 1951—let us give credit to Deputy Dr. Browne—a scheme had been brought in in which we removed the worry from the breadwinner who was suffering from T.B. We encouraged him to be examined early and to go to hospital without the worry of being dependent upon home assistance. A special allowance was made to him.

The Minister also ignored the fact that in 1950 there was a housing drive in which 13,200 men were engaged on the erection of houses in the Twenty Six Counties. In 1953 the number has dropped by 6,000. There are now over 6,000 skilled employees on the dole including 1,000 carpenters, notwithstanding the fact that at the present time there is a demand for the erection of houses all over the country. In agriculture you have over 8,000 men fewer employed than there were in 1950 and 1,800 people fewer employed in transport because of the Government's policy in notifying C.I.E. that they were to economise.

Pay their way.

And pay their way. The way they economised was to dismiss over 1,800 employees. There were 1,300 less men employed in the clothing industry; 600 fewer in engineering; 700 fewer in the mining industry and over 700 fewer in quarrying. However, the biggest problem of all is the large number of men unemployed in the city of Dublin. During the period I referred to, you had the erection of over 4,000 cottages in the County of Dublin. They were reduced to 1,000 last April. Why was there no scheme prepared by the public bodies on the lines of the 1948 and 1949 schemes? Why did the public bodies in 1951 not try to prepare schemes to meet the housing requirements of the various localities?

I can speak as one with 30 years' experience as a member of a public body in connection with the erection of houses. We are the first body in Ireland to have our own scheme of erecting houses by direct labour; wehave our own equipment; no public representative ever interfered with the engineers or the men in charge of the erection of these houses. Even during the war we were able to erect houses to meet the requirements of our people but unfortunately owing to the Government's action in increasing the rate of interest we have been unable to proceed at the same pace at which we were proceeding for 20 years.

During the last month a case came to my notice at a public board meeting where we had two houses to let. One was at 14/- and the other at 6/-; they were built in different years. The list of applicants placed in the order of preference recommended by the county medical officer of health numbered 20 for the house at 6/- and only 4 for the house at 14/- We tried to erect houses on an agreed scheme for the men in the rural areas but we found that on a £1,000 house the economic rent would be 25/8d. a week. We would receive a subsidy from the Government of 13/7 which would leave 12/1 to be met either by rent or by rates. We agreed to rent the houses at 10/- a week. We would have to put 2/7 on the rates which was equal to £376 a year on the house. We decided that in an endeavour to keep the people in the rural areas for the time being pending a change in the rate of interest we would only charge 10/- a week for the house and put the 2/7 on the rates.

Deputy Carter has made a case with which I do not think any Labour man will quarrel. He said that workers should be prepared to do their best in return for fair wages. That has always been the policy of any genuine labour man, but in increasing production we must ensure that if the worker does 12 months' work in nine months he will not be idle for the other three months. There must be some incentive given in industry, either by way of profit sharing or by providing some other inducement to the men to produce more. The position in industry to-day is that you have many factory owners threatening from week to week to displace men. Deputy Kennedy, the Parliamentary Secretary, made a grave mistake whenhe said in the House that there was alternative employment in the Army for these men. I interjected to say that I did not approve of such conscription and Deputy McCann immediately stood up and dissociated himself from the remark that the unemployed should be sent into the Army. We have no objection to any man voluntarily joining the Army, but I do not think that is the solution for unemployment. When we are spending something in the neighbourhood of £9,000,000 for the Army, we could quite easily allocate a couple of million pounds for the erection of houses at a 2 per cent. rate of interest. We must make some sacrifice in the national interest in endeavouring to keep our people in the rural areas. I believe it would go a long way towards absorbing the large number of men unemployed and be an incentive to public bodies to continue their work. I give credit to those public men who are doing their best to relieve the housing problem, but they are prevented from doing a great deal more by the high rate of interest charged.

I would ask the Minister to consider seriously making some concession to enable the public bodies to go ahead with big housing schemes and not talk so much about the erection of cinemas, and so on. That may be good in its own way but the housing of the working classes and other people comes first.

When I realise that 20,000 houses are required here in the City of Dublin and that they are building at the rate of 2,000 a year—and Cork must be in a similar position—what hope is there, then, for the person without a house if they are only certifying in a survey for the people living in condemned houses? You have probably a survey for the number living in overcrowded dwellings. It will take over ten years even to find accommodation for the 20,000. That is all wrong. I believe that with the skilled men we have available and with the men who are willing to come back again as they came back before, we could guarantee ten years' continuous work for our skilled men and tradesmen all over the country providing much-needed houses for our people. We are trying to inducemen to remain in the rural areas but we must provide houses there. I am afraid that the Taoiseach mentioned one thing yesterday when he said that some of the relief schemes amounted to £70. If that is looked up, you will find it was a relief scheme for the Board of Works. You can always pick out a case for or against a particular scheme, but I believe that the Public Works Act was a very important and a very valuable scheme. You were reclaiming land, and if we got greater production in the country in the way of reclaiming land we would enable the farmers to have more land and produce the food we need.

I will come back again, having considered the serious position in the City of Dublin, to the rural areas. When you talk about the rate of interest and the position of the agricultural worker, he has about £4 or £5 a week, and every increase in rent means that he is going to look for an increase in wages. Sometimes, as I have mentioned, the increased interest rate means 1/8½ a week increase in the rent to the agricultural labourer for the house we are going to erect in the county. We are erecting them as cheaply as we possibly can, giving first-class material and giving employment to our workers. Now the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs points out that all the public bodies have their schemes nearly completed. There are 48 schemes completed; there are other schemes in preparation, but the public bodies, seeing the rate of interest, are afraid to proceed in case they would be unable to get suitable tenants.

When I am talking about suitable tenants, I am talking about tenants, not in the cities but in the urban areas whose wages are only £5 a week. I can state that in my own area, in my own town, we built houses for what we call white-collar workers apart from the men out of condemned houses or overcrowded houses. But it is difficult to enable them to pay since the high rate of interest even for Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act houses. For the last 18 months—I think that the Minister can check up that—we had not even one application for the erection or for a loan under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition)Act, because it means 10/- or 11/- a week to shop assistants or skilled men or tradesmen and they are unable to pay. We did then proceed to build 20 or 30 houses to meet the requirements of those men but the rent would amount to 30/- per week. A labouring man with £4 or £5 a week would be unable to pay 30/- a week. What is our position, then? We must try to do the best we can, and I would ask the Minister to consider that point no matter what has been his opinion. We are paying £9,000,000 for the Army to defend the country and that is not giving us production. If we can give those millions, surely we can leave some millions there, free of interest or at 2½ per cent. even, to enable us to solve this problem that we are faced with at the present time. The Government members, naturally, are not going to admit that the Budget of 1951 has been responsible for all the trouble. They make the best case they possibly can. I do not want to exaggerate the position at the present time in any way, but we have 8,000 men less employed in the rural areas than we had in 1950. This is a serious matter for any Government and a matter of which the Government must take serious notice. If the agricultural areas become depopulated, what is going to happen in another few years?

Boards of guardians were asked to erect cheap houses for the farm labourer and let the ratepayers pay by way of subsidy on the rates because of the low wages paid to the farm labourer. Now we must provide houses in the rural areas at a rent which the farm labourer can afford to pay without looking for a further increase in his wages. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs pointed out as his excuse for increasing postal charges that the postal charges are cheaper to-day than they were ten years ago. If this is so, the unemployment benefit to-day should react in the same way that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has followed. The unemployment benefit should be increased to meet the demand.

I do not want to detain the Houseand I only want to refer to the practical position we are faced with on the public boards. I give credit where it is due. I have known all the members of public boards for years and they are all most anxious to provide employment for our people. You have seen that the two congresses of trades unions have passed resolutions about which I believe the Taoiseach is meeting them, requesting that the work of erection of houses and public works should be proceeded with immediately. I believe they can be proceeded with and that they are works of production, work that will not be called relief work. There is no council that I am aware of that could not absorb 200 or 300 men in the county more than are employed at the present moment. Some county engineers try in getting the estimate for the roads to reserve full employment until the winter period during the Christmas when work will be scarce. To enable us to meet the present difficulty I believe that the Government will have to change their whole financial policy in connection with the treatment of public boards. If we are going to proceed with big sewerage schemes, which is a matter for the improvement of our health, or with water schemes, we must not be charged 5½ per cent. or 5¼ per cent., the same as for other business.

Why must the ratepayer bear his share of any increase that takes place in connection with this development of their towns? They have to make sacrifices by paying increases in the rates to meet the cost of the improvement of the social services, sewerage or water or housing. Why should the banks then not make some sacrifice, they being in control of credit, for doing a national work of national importance? Why should they charge the full amount of 5¼ per cent.? I maintain that banks should only charge for a national project such as the erection of houses, sewerage and water schemes 2½ per cent. and not any more. You should not be asking them to reap the benefits and you should put the interests of the people first. I would appeal to the Minister to consider the problem not from any pointof view except that of the position we are faced with at the present time. I think that any public representative must feel the position of the number unemployed in his respective area. It is not nice to see a large number of men unemployed, when we could find useful work for them if we had money at a cheap rate of interest. I ask the Minister to consider that. If he does, the public bodies will be able to proceed within six months, as they did some years ago, and redouble their efforts to provide more employment, in the erection of houses and the provision of sewerage and water supplies. If that occurs, we will not be next year in the position as we are in to-day, as we will have done something about it in the meantime.

I want to reply to charges made by a Fine Gael speaker in which he said that recent figures have shown that I was lying when I suggested that the Fine Gael Budget of that year was a faked Budget. The charge is a serious one and it has surprised me that the answer has been delayed and that it should be delivered in this way, at the tail end of a long debate during which the person who is charged with the faking of the Budget should have remained silent. It is surprising that the speaker, in providing what he described as proof, should have admitted that he has had the proof since February of this year, yet no one in Fine Gael would relieve Deputy McGilligan of that charge. This is an attempt by Fine Gael, using every despicable trick in their pack of conjuring tricks, to discredit myself. So far, they have not been successful. In this particular case, they are not successful either.

At that time, the principle was put forward that at all costs the figure on the cover of the Book of Estimates, as we were all informed, must remain at the same figure as the previous year. At all costs, our Estimates should enable Fine Gael Ministers to keep the figure the same. It was very fancy finance, very Fine Gael finance. In the ordinary course, on my responsibility as Minister, I submitted a figure which was put forward by myofficials and which I accepted. That figure was referable to health services and in particular to the mother and child services. I was asked to reduce it and produce a smaller one. That request was not made as an ordinary one by a Minister looking for curtailment of expenditure. It was made in the clear knowledge that that money was likely to be required for the mother and child scheme, if it had been allowed to go ahead, as had been announced by me on behalf of the Government. That request was made. It was a request to fake the figure, to give a dishonest, untrue figure. It was made deliberately, in order to mislead the public. I was encouraged to take the step to submit the false figure by the inducement that other Ministers in the Government had accepted this practice as honest and normal acceptable practice in the administration of their several Departments. I repeatedly refused to accept that figure, in spite of the cajolments and the inducement of the different members who were sent to me to mislead, to produce the wrong figures. Eventually, two things were arrived at. I felt that my responsibility would be met if the public were made aware of the total likely commitments required by my Department.

Normally, in a normal Government, that total likely requirement is mentioned in the Estimates. If you refer to the Book of Estimates, you will find there is a footnote to the requirements of the Department of Health and in that footnote—I cannot recall the exact figure—it says that £400,000 or £600,000 was likely to be required for the health scheme on its coming into operation. I, as Minister, in that curiously assorted, largely dominated from the financial point of view by Fine Gael, Government, had discharged my responsibility to the public in letting them know what would be the likely charge on their purse under my Department. In consequence, I felt I had discharged my responsibility.

In addition, the matter had to be discussed in the Party to which I belonged and I have no doubt there are members within that Party—then a Party—who would be prepared to comeforward and repeat the charges I have made, in their knowledge at that time, which arose from the fact that I had refused to connive in that cospiracy, in what I believe was an attempt to defraud the public.

That, of course, is completely untrue.

Of all the Fine Gael failures in the inter-Party régime, that was one of the most disgraceful interludes—upon which Deputy McGilligan, at some time or other, can give us his version of Catholic social teaching or the moral law.

Here is the moralist now.

I would like the Minister to wait one moment for the moralist.

If I have to suffer on this earth, I may as well listen to you.

When a Minister sneers here at somebody who tries to do his best under all circumstances, when a Minister tries to hold him up to ridicule and scorn, apart from the single word "moralist" the Government has fallen even lower than Deputy Dr. Browne would have us believe.

Are you not the canonist of the Party?

I am not. I am an ordinary, straight, decent country blacksmith, who became a soldier in the service of Ireland and did his best, no more, no less. I never repudiated any comrade that ever I had, never did and never will, and that even includes you, sir, you little Minister that does not deserve the friendship of good real men in this country, because you are trying to sneer. The Minister is trying to sneer at the name of every person who did not agree with him at the time, whether that person is a Liam T. Cosgrave, a Sean MacEoin, a Collins, a Griffith, a Peadar Cowan or a Dr. Browne. Then he sneers at us who tried to do our best. I propose to apply myself to the issues of to-day, in a straight andsimple way, factual and without embellishment. The Minister has said, time and time again, that the reason he brought in the harsh Budget of 1952 was because of the failure of his predecessor to make provision for the necessary expenditure for that year. Every Fianna Fáil spokesman and every Minister of the Government, including the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs who is now sitting on the front bench, admitted that it was a harsh Budget. They said that they could not do otherwise than bring it in because, they alleged, their predecessors did not make sufficient provision in their Estimate of 1951 for the expenditure that was required. Not only that, but they also alleged that the Marshall Aid loan and all Marshall Aid moneys were completely spent by their predecessors in office. They went from pillar to post declaring that as a fact and they alleged that not only did their own supporters believe it fully but that some of our supporters believed it likewise. It was agreed that we had prosperity but Fianna Fáil said that that prosperity was brought about by a "spending spree," to use the words of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, by their predecessors-in-office.

The former Minister for Health, Deputy Dr. Browne, asserted in this House that he was asked to fake the figures for the Estimate for the Department of Health for 1951. He said that he told members of his own Party about what he was asked to do. The truth of the matter is that each Minister was asked to sub-edit his proposals. Is that not the practice yet? Has it not been the practice— as it always will be the practice—of every Government to ask each Minister to estimate the lowest possible figure he is likely to spend in the year?

The Estimate for 1949-50 was £70,000,000 on the face of the Book of Estimates. For 1950-51 the Estimate, on the face of the Book of Estimates for that year, works out at £81,000,000 and for 1951-52 it works out at £82,000,000. Where, in view of these facts, does Deputy Dr. Browne get the story that the Minister for Finance wanted to keep the same figure on theBook of Estimates for the year 1951 as was there the previous year, 1950, when, in fact, it was not so? I have here in my hand the Book of Estimates for 1951-52 which shows on its face a sum of £82,000,000. According to the Minister for Finance, the moralist, according to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, the moralist, and according to the Taoiseach, the moralist cum plus—according to each one of them—that Book of Estimates was a fake. Then we have the Comptroller and Auditor-General—a matter to which Deputy O'Higgins has already drawn attention—certifying what the actual expenditure was in the year 1951-52. This certificate, although it was signed by the Comptroller and Auditor-General in February of this year, was not published until May of this year. The Comptroller and Auditor-General certifies—and I hope nobody will impugn the Comptroller and Auditor-General of this country with having faked figures—that the total amounts of the surplus to be surrendered was £4,302,556 15s. 11d., after paying the £2,000,000 odd to the civil servants, the Army and the Gardaí.

While Deputy O'Higgins was making his speech, the Minister for Finance interrupted him and asserted that he did not know what he was talking about. I should like to say to the Minister for Finance and the Fianna Fáil Deputies and, in particular, Deputy Dr. Browne, that if they do not like the 1950-51 certificate of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, they should take the year previous to that. Take, for example, the one issued by the Comptroller and Auditor-General in respect of the year 1950-51 and dated the 23rd February, 1952. In that certificate, the Comptroller and Auditor-General certifies that the sum which Deputy McGilligan, as Minister for Finance, had to surrender to the Exchequer, after that year's operations, amounted to £4,611,277 6s. 6d. Was the Budget of 1950-51 a fake Budget?

Because Deputy McGilligan had that surplus in respect of 1950-51, he was able, in his Budget of 1951-52, to give relief in taxation. He was able to give 6d. in the £ relief in income-tax, amongother remissions, and he was able to make increased provision for children. In fact, he presented the best Budget that this country ever got. But Fianna Fáil were as mad as mad could be because anybody could do better than they could and, therefore, Fianna Fáil went out on a smear campaign, aided by Deputy Dr. Browne who broke with his comrades and his colleagues.

What is wrong with telling the truth? I hope the day will never dawn in this Parliament when the only thing that can succeed is the untruth. In his speech to-day, Deputy Hickey appealed to the Government to say where the truth lies. The former Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, said that there were stocks of fertilisers in the country when he left office while the present Minister for Agriculture said that there was not a grain. Then it was found out.

One Minister asserted that the Marshall Aid funds were all spent and he consistently maintained that, until the Taoiseach, for some reason, got up in Fermoy and said that there was a remnant of £24,000,000 left. When I asked him why he would not describe it as a tailor's clipping, he was very indignant and said that he had not used any such phrase. The word "remnant" has only one meaning—a very insignificant part of the whole— and therefore £24,000,000 was a good lot more than a remnant of £40,000,000, being more than half. All that has brought about restriction in credit and I know business men in this country to-day who were doing well, who were giving first-class employment, who to-day cannot maintain their employees. They tried to get credit from the banks and failed.

The Taoiseach told us that that was not their design, but, in the next breath, he told us that the Government had decided to take the hard path, the hard line. They decided at all costs to rectify the balance of payments and then the little Minister for Posts and Telegraphs goes down the country and says that the people should be very proud of the fact that Ireland was able to lend money to Britain. I should be twice as proud if Britain would pay us back what she owes us.

I am not suffering from any inferiority complex and I never did, but I do not think it is right that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs should tell the unemployed in the City of Dublin that they ought to go hungry and be proud because we were able to lend money to the British Government at 1½ per cent., while charging 6½ per cent. to our own people. Outside of bedlam, was there ever anything like it?

When somebody gets up to attack that system, a Minister of this State has no better phrase to offer than "moralist". He does not say that to other Deputies; he does not say that to Deputy Dr. Browne, who is a moralist, who is able to say whether the bishops are right or wrong and who tells the bishops what he thinks of them. The Minister for Finance is mum and mute of malice because if he did not agree with that, Deputy Browne might not go into the Lobby with him and if Deputy Browne did not take that walk, the Minister would be walking up and down through Rathmines telling the people who were the moralists and who were not.

Every Fianna Fáil Deputy and supporter will agree that the inter-Party Government, in its term of office, brought prosperity to the country and brought an era of peace. It did everything necessary for the safeguarding of the interests and wellbeing of the country, but, as they could not find any ground for complaint from the point of view of peace, they took the untruthful line that our prosperity was due solely to the failure of the then Minister for Finance, then Deputy McGilligan, to extract from the people the taxation which, in his opinion, should have been extracted from them. They alleged that he did not make provision sufficient to cover the Book of Estimates, but that has been exploded now completely and yet we have Fianna Fáil back benchers repeating that charge, as does the Minister for Finance, I regret to say, whenever he gets an opportunity of doing so where he cannot be contradicted. We have reached a poor time of day when that situation arises.

I should like to hear the Minister for Finance defending his programme, which is now a total failure, which has created unemployment and which has increased the cost of every piece of capital expenditure the State or the individual undertakes. If a local authority proposes to build a labourer's cottage to-day, it will cost the individual or the local authority the sum of £18 a year more than in 1948-49, 1949-50 or 1950-51—and that is progress. They say to-day that the only way they could get money was by paying 5 per cent. The British Government last year paid 4½ per cent. for their money, and, only about three weeks ago, they issued an Exchequer loan of £100,000,000 at 3½ per cent., and they got it.

For how many years?

If you could get it for four years, would it not do you? Why cannot you not borrow on short term as well as the British? Is your word any worse than that of the British? If we are to judge by the conduct of the Ministers of this State, your word would not be equal to anybody's and that is a hard thing to have to say. If they are as untruthful in other matters as they are in relation to what takes place in this House, nobody could accept their word. However, I do not take the view that they are that bad. I take the view that if any Government of this country, whatever Government it is, borrows for one, three, five or 15 years, at 3½ per cent. or 2½ per cent., they are doing good work; but that if they have to borrow or pay the moneylender and the moneyringer 5 per cent., they are working for the moneyringer and not for the people of the country.

The Central Bank lends £80,000,000 at 1½ per cent. or less per annum, justifying it on the basis of liquidity and short term. Liquidity of what? There was a time when, if you went into a bank to change a £10 note or a £100 note, you got what it promised on demand—100 gold sovereigns or ten gold sovereigns. Is that the situation to-day? If you go into a bank to-day to change a £100 note, you will get 100 bits of paper—they will not give it toyou all in silver—so that there is no such thing as liquidity to-day. The Government, in talking that way, are working on the basis of an obsolete machine, of something which died in 1914 and which was put on the scrapheap. I assert that the Government have failed.

The plan and programme they put into operation here asserting it was going to bring about financial stability has failed. If they had any decency they would put that test to the country. I presume they will get the Vote on Account and thus the decks will be clear for them to put the facts before the country during the recess. We shall abide by the decision of the people. We on this side of the House challenge the Government to do that, and even though some of us are growing old and not, perhaps, as fit to fight the battle as we were in days gone by we will, nevertheless, take on the responsibility in the belief, the hope and the knowledge that, joined by the younger men in our Party and in the various Parties on this side of the House, we will bring the country back to prosperity and hold what has been won after a hard struggle.

I did not intend to take part in this debate until I heard the Taoiseach last night and read his speech in this morning's papers. I wonder are some members of the Opposition fair in their condemnation of members of the Government Party or even of Ministers when we take into consideration in a fair and honest manner the words used by the Leader of the Government as quoted in this morning's newspapers. He said:—

"I think always that the time that is best for the country——"

He was speaking of an election,

"——is when it is best in the interest of this Party, because I believe this Party is working in the country's best interest."

I believe it is a tragedy, when we are trying to approach our problems in a fair, honest and constructive way, that the one person who should be imbued with a greater sense of responsibility than anyone else in this country should say that it was only when it suited himand his Party that there would be an election. At the present time we are faced with the problems of unemployment, the increased cost of living and emigration but it is a waste of time for us to try and offer any suggestions when it is clearly known by each and every one of us that this is in reality a one-man Government.

The Taoiseach, when speaking last night, tried either to take the Deputies of this House for a ride, to use an American expression, or else he was acting in complete ignorance of what is going on all round him. Members of this House, who are members of local authorities, are fully conversant with the problems in the various local authority areas at the present time. Members of the Government Party who are members of local authorities must have found it rather strange to hear their Leader and their Taoiseach say that there were more men working on the roads with the local authorities now than at any time during the reign of the inter-Party Government. Surely those members know in their hearts that that was not a true statement. They know as well as I do that there is more unemployment in the ranks of road workers in the South of Ireland, including County Cork, than there ever was for many years past.

I know many road workers who asked the help of some of us in the Opposition and also the help of Government Deputies. Those Deputies were anxious to help if they could but, unfortunately, the money was not there for them. It may be said that increased grants have been given to the local authorities. What use is that if we have to rob Peter to pay Paul? Local authorities who got increased grants were faced with the problem of a greater reduction in the money provided under the Local Authority (Works) Act.

Every member is fully aware that practically 100 per cent. of the money provided under the Local Authorities (Works) Act went towards the paying of wages, which was a tremendous advantage so far as the workers were concerned.

If the Taoiseach is so simple minded or if he thinks that we are so simpleminded as to believe what he tried to tell us last night, he is making a mistake. It might well repay the Taoiseach if he spent a few hours in the Department of Local Government at the Customs House inquiring as to why so many important projects, including the building of local authority houses, are being held up there. The hold-up in connection with these important projects is bringing to a climax a problem the Government must face. It is a problem that we are honest and anxious enough to try and help to solve. It is the problem of unemployment in the rural areas. It is quite true that unemployment is undoubtedly causing worries in the Cities of Dublin and Cork, but it is also equally bad in rural Ireland. May I say, in passing that it is no use even for a member of the Government to believe—mind you, I will say that the member who used the words I wish to draw attention to, was honest in expressing his view— that in Cork City, in the near future, everything will be grand in the case of employment, because a few extra churches are being built there? Thank God the stage has now been reached when there is no need to apply for a licence for the building materials to construct a church.

But if a few extra churches are being built down in Cork City, the Government cannot say that it is a Government project. Surely it is the people, and only the people who are striving through their own contributions to help in building these. I believe it is ridiculous and fantastic for the Government or a member of the Government to say that because such works are going on in the City of Cork that everything will be grand there in the near future.

The Taoiseach, apparently, took pride in quoting the words of wisdom used by his Minister for External Affairs, and apparently the Taoiseach was highly offended when the poor ordinary country boys, as it were, here on these benches did not take into consideration and did not give full value to these wonderful golden words of wisdom spoken by the Minister for External Affairs who was trying in his own way to have us believe that some of ournew-found economists, including the Minister for External Affairs, have discovered a way of living that is unknown to anyone else but which in the near future is going to remedy all the ills of unemployment in this country. What is wrong, in my opinion, is, as I said some few weeks ago, that the Taoiseach and the one-man Government that unfortunately is in power at the present time is living in the past while the unfortunate people in Dublin and elsewhere are faced with the problem of unemployment and the problem of keeping their children and their homes while depending very often on home assistance and are not able to exist on the glorious policy of 20 or 30 years ago. It is time we got away from it.

The last speaker, General MacEoin, did at least say something that I believe is true. He said some members in this House may be advanced in years but they are depending on the younger members to help. The tragedy of it all, in my opinion, is that the present Government fails to realise that the younger members in this House even in their own Party are not considered worthy of giving suggestions which these young members know represent the only possible ways of helping to solve the problems of the present time. Who is going to believe that? Nobody outside this House will believe it except the solid Government Party supporter. Not a word offered here by the Taoiseach last night is going to solve the problem before us. How strange it must be for anyone to read in a certain newspaper this morning of congratulations being offered to the Minister for Local Government because he was so generous as to receive a deputation here from the Corporation of Dublin. In his generosity again, he told them that he is behind them in cleaning some of the lanes, in clearing some of the river beds around the rivers of the city. Surely as one or two members said in the course of this debate Government policy cannot be restricted so much, or reduced to such a low, dead and shallow measure as to have to say that our only contribution is to tell the members of Dublin Corporation: "We are behind you inthese small projects." The people are expecting something more than that. If the Taoiseach would develop his point, and if he told those members of his Party on the back benches who are merely supporting this one-man Government, that the Government was satisfied that the capital investment programme at the present time must be extended, then the people might have something for which to live. Then they might say that even while the Taoiseach reminded them of the necessity of tightening their belts owing to economic conditions over the past two years, that there might be some hope for the future. But not a word from the Taoiseach, and I am sorry to say that in our opinion so long as that policy is in operation in this country so long will we have from the Government a policy which is futile and hopeless.

The Minister for External Affairs apparently, is satisfied, an attitude so different from his views if members will read some of his contributions here in the early years after his entry into this Chamber. If Deputies compare these views with the views of the present Minister for External Affairs they may wonder whether it is really and truly the same person who was offering these various contributions. And when we take into consideration the fact which is commonly known in this country that this particular Minister of State is almost the guardian angel of the Taoiseach, surely the words expressed by that Minister must have the august apostolic blessing of the Taoiseach. We still believe that the tragedy perpetrated on the people by the continuance of a false economic policy is a tragedy which in the years to come will bring nothing but despair and misfortune for the people of this country.

We are told that the Government is determined to help the local authorities in connection with house-building and again the Taoiseach who is so fond of statistics—statistics that can be used in any way, to suit anyone, except the hungry because they cannot unfortunately live on statistics—was satisfied to tell us that they were offering inducements to local authorities to goon with housing. It was strange to hear this when, as members of local authorities, we are faced with the problem of the new rates of interest. We will take for instance a house costing £1,200 before the introduction of the new system, even including the new grant. The old system meant that on a £1,200 house the annual loan charges, etc. worked out at roughly £23 per year, and the new system introduced by the Government with the blessing of the Taoiseach, means that the annual loan charges which ultimately must be paid for by the tenant and, to a certain degree, by the local authority, rise from £23 or £24, up to roughly £33 a year—over £9 a year more in annual charges under the wonderful new system offered to local authorities and indirectly offered to the poor unfortunates down the country who find it difficult enough to pay the rents that are being asked.

All these problems including others that have been mentioned and which I have no intention of going into, are problems that unfortunately the present Government are not showing any desire to tackle.

There is no attempt being made by members of the Government to answer to the call of the Leader of their Party when these problems have to be solved. Yet, they accuse us of criticism of a destructive nature when we draw attention to these problems.

The Taoiseach, of course, wandered over the whole sphere and I would go so far as to say that the contributions he offered were in no way helpful. The only thing he forgot to mention, in my opinion—I really did believe he would include it, because he mentioned it even in the by-elections in East Cork and also in Dublin recently—was the close proximity of his policy, and incidentally, of Government policy, to that of a famous clergyman of long, long ago, who believed that he had found a cure for all ills in nothing less and nothing more than tar water.

I have nothing to say, needless to add, about the man or his religion, but when the Taoiseach tells us that the policy of the present Government was just a continuation of the policy of that famous bishop, and when eventhe supporters of the Taoiseach down in East Cork, plain, honest-to-God countrymen, ask: "About whom was he talking when he mentioned the name starting with B.", is it any wonder when they hear who the man was, they say: "We know nothing about his tar-water but certainly, so far as we know, his policy was anything but Irish"? These are the views expressed by the people in East Cork and yet the Taoiseach tells us, according to reports in the papers, that he is following the policy of this person.

Is it not a calamity to have to admit that we are almost at the cross-roads in regard to problems, economic and otherwise, facing this country? Yet we have the one person who should be most responsible, telling us how intimate he is with the policy of this great individual, this great man who found a cure for the ills of the poor human frame. It may be well to advise the Taoiseach on one matter. He is quite satisfied—either through lack of information on his part or from a desire to avoid the whole issue—that the Government are encouraging, and almost forcing, local authorities to go on with projects that should be carried out in various areas.

If the Taoiseach wants to go ahead with these projects, his first step should be to insist on an attempt at solving the problem of the lack of coordination between the famous Custom House, the Ministry of Local Government—and the local authorities. The Government must accept responsibility for the hold-up in many schemes of vital importance through red tape or through other devices which involve the sending of continual letters of inquiry on various aspects of different schemes. Deputies here often bemoan the increases in rates, but if the Taoiseach went on a tour, even though it might be a tour of pleasure, and called to the offices of local authorities, he would find that a certain percentage of the staff in these offices had to be recruited for one reason above all else and that was to deal through a filing system with all the inquiries from headquarters including some of those we got a few years ago advising the use of thatchedroofing for cottages in rural Ireland. I say that the fewer letters sent down from the Department of Local Government and the quicker sanction is given to schemes of local and national importance, the quicker we can solve the problem of local unemployment.

We are told about the increased money provided for capital works. Again the Taoiseach reserves for himself the right to judge whether these works should be undertaken or not. He of all the Government or amongst all the Ministers will decide whether the spending of this money should be proceeded with. I should like to know, reverting to a very important subject dealt with here some time ago, the undeveloped areas, how much money has been spent already under that heading. We were told that there was roughly about £2,000,000 to be made available, but that that was, so to speak, only the key to the door. We were only opening the premises of this new sphere of activities to help the people in these area. It must be roughly about a year and a half ago since that was said. I honestly believe that even at the end of this year the money spent on works under this particular heading will fall far short of the amount that should be provided for these areas.

The Taoiseach also, of course, laid emphasis on the fact that he is a believer in private enterprise. He may consider that some of us who may not agree with him in that policy are primitive in our outlook, or that our knowledge is so restricted that we should not discuss the matter. I believe, as other members of this Party who have spoken already believe, that private enterprise on its own will never succeed in solving the vital problems of this country. There are many enterprises and many factories carried on by private enterprise which certainly are a credit to this country, but because the Taoiseach is living in the past and because his policy is an old obsolete policy, he fails to realise the significance of semi-State or State concerns which, since we regained self-government, have justified our claim that there are many industries which should be controlled and run as State concerns. While I will not go so far asto say that State enterprise is the sole remedy for all the evils of unemployment in this country, the history of the monopoly by private enterprise, even under a foreign régime, justifies our claim that private enterprise alone will never help to ease the unemployment problem. The philosophy behind many of those running private enterprise is that they should have a good pool of unemployed from which they can draw whenever they want to. The time must come when the old, obsolete policy of the Taoiseach and his Government must be put before the people so that the people may be given an opportunity of deciding as to whether they want progressive economic policies here, or whether they prefer to drag along in the way in which they have been doing for many years past.

We find no pleasure in listening to members of this House comparing policies as between Party and Party or Government and Government, comparing failures and successes. What is the use of that? There are some of us here who speak with a proper sense of our responsibilities and we are not satisfied that time should be wasted here listening to the warriors of the past recounting their glorious deeds. Some members went so far in that to-day that I was convinced that at any moment we would see Brian Boru sitting in the middle of the floor. Some of them alleged they were in the Fenian movement. The Government will shortly produce Robert Emmet on a postage stamp but they are not producing any schemes to combat unemployment.

The Taoiseach stated last night that many of the contributions here were not helpful. There was one speech we were all waiting for during this debate, hoping that there would be some ray of light thrown on the situation or that some hope would be held out. I refer to the Taoiseach's speech. What did we get? I know that there is many a back bencher in the Taoiseach's own Party sadly worried about the unemployment position. Many of them are worried about the continuous emigration of our young people. They came in last night and the Taoiseach had them roaring excitedly during hisspeech. When he finished the curtain came down. The three-dimensional spectacle was over. They went out believing that everything would be all right because the Taoiseach told them that he, and he alone, will decide whether or not we will have an election.

Let me sound a note of warning. The Taoiseach's policy may suit himself; the last two years have proved that it does not suit our unemployed; it does not suit the old age pensioner; it does not suit the people in the rural areas. It does not suit the people who have to struggle to meet an ever-increasing cost of living. The Taoiseach may hope that there will not be an election until it suits himself. The tragedy is that between now and then the people all over the country will have to endure many a day's hardship and suffering and many a day's hunger and it is one man, and one man alone, who is and will be responsible for their miseries.

I merely want to refer to some matters in connection with my own constituency. I heard the Taoiseach say last night that he would not allow any money to be spent on capital development unless that development were productive. I have here a list of works that will definitely be productive if schemes are put into operation. I put the Taoiseach and his Government to the test now to see if he will carry out the promise he made last night.

First and foremost, there is the land project scheme. We in the western counties are not large farmers. The holdings there are small and uneconomic. An acre of land reclaimed there is more valuable to the smallholder in the West than ten acres or 15 acres to the rancher or the farmer in the Midlands. I would impress upon the Taoiseach, the Minister and the Government the imperative necessity for intensifying the land project scheme in the West of Ireland. Every £ spent there on land reclamation will mean increased agricultural production and will help to rear a greater number of store cattle for the man in the Midlands and the rancher who come to buy cattle two or three times a year at the fairs in the West.

I regret the statement made by the Taoiseach that the reclamation of land at £70 per acre is not a good proposition. Any money spent on reclaiming land is money well and wisely spent. Land is fetching very good prices in the West, and on occasions it has realised as much as £100 per acre. The Taoiseach adverted to the fact that he had examined this land project scheme and discovered that in one instance, where an acre of land had been reclaimed at a cost of £70, the money was wasted because the land would never grow anything but rushes. He condemned the whole scheme on that one experience. That work, of course, had been carried out during the régime of the inter-Party Government. If the Taoiseach comes down to Sligo, he will see land now being reclaimed there— cutaway bog—that is not even fit to grow rushes. The money spent on that will be money wasted. If he wishes to investigate that I will give him all the particulars.

Another scheme which will provide very useful employment in Sligo and ultimately lead to increased agricultural production is the drainage of the five rivers in that county. At the moment the land project scheme is held up because of the condition in which the rivers are. They are not able to carry the extra water flowing into them. I suggest that the Minister should consult the Parliamentary Secretary and ensure that these rivers are cleaned. The cost would not be very great and, if the rivers are done, the people will be able to avail of the land project scheme.

Another scheme which will provide employment and increase production is the development of the bogs. I refer, in particular, to Gowla Bog. A survey is being carried out there at the moment. There are 5,000 acres in it and I understand it is the intention of the Government to erect a power station there. Now part of this bog extends into County Mayo but the biggest portion of it is in County Sligo. There is a difference of opinion as to which county these stations should be erected in. Now the Fianna Fáil Governmenthas always neglected County Sligo and I suggest that this power station should be erected on the Sligo end of Gowla bog.

Another useful scheme on which money could be well spent is the improvement of Sligo harbour. An extra grant should be provided for that work. During the inter-Party régime a grant was allocated for the repair of that harbour, but it was not sufficient to carry out the necessary repairs. The harbour board are continually seeking assistance from the Sligo County Council to help them out of their difficulties in maintaining the harbour. I would ask the Minister to consider that matter. If money were made available for it employment would be provided and the harbour could be fully developed. That would tend to relieve the very acute unemployment problem we have in Sligo. In fact, the only industry we have in Sligo Town now is the labour exchange. On the appointed day, we have men, who are willing to work but cannot get it, queueing up until 5 o'clock in the evening to sign on.

The national dividend.

Those men would certainly rather get employment at a fair wage than have to spend the whole day waiting at the labour exchange to sign on.

The Parliamentary Secretary wants to conscript them into the Army.

There was a suggestion made to-day by a Deputy on the Government Benches that these men should join the Army. That certainly would be a handy way out, but I wonder if joining the Army would be considered reproductive employment. How do the Government expect to have increased production, and how do they think the farmers can grow more wheat and other cereal crops unless there is more employment provided on the land? It is the responsibility of the Government to have a proper policy so that the maximum amount of employment can be given on the land.

Another scheme which would be of great benefit, not only to Sligo and Leitrim, but the country at large, is the proper development of the Arigna coalfields. Full-time employment is not being provided at present in some of the coal mines there, so that a number of the employees have been compelled to go to England. The coal produced there is of first-class quality, equal to any that is being imported. I seriously suggest to the Minister that he should have a survey made there. The roads leading to the mines should be properly constructed, and Government assistance should be given to some of the mine owners who are at present in financial difficulties.

Some Deputies on the Government Benches who have spoken here have gone to great pains to look up statistics bearing on the volume of unemployment in other countries. We should not worry about the unemployed in any other country. We have our own country to look after. The ways and the means of meeting the unemployment problem are here, but I think that the Government have neither the will nor the desire to put reproductive schemes into operation.

The cost of living is worrying the people of the country at the moment. It has increased considerably since the present Government came into office. Butter is now 4/2 per lb., and the loaf of bread is 9½d. Of course, the people are very well aware of that, and I made that known to the Government in the recent by-elections in Wicklow and Cork.

I wonder if the Minister for Finance, when he is enjoying the luxury of his own home, gives a thought to the hardships and worries of the people throughout the country, and of the unemployed especially? There is nothing left for them only the blue book, but the miserable amount provided through it is not sufficient to support a man and his wife and five or six children. The price of food has increased to such an extent that some of those people are actually begging. That has been my experience. If the Minister makes inquiries he will find that my statement can be verified.

It is three times what it was a year ago.

Evidently the Taoiseach is not concerned about the prosperity of the people, or how they are faring. All that is worrying him is the balance of payments. He is more worried about easing the position in regard to the balance of payments than he is about the people who are going hungry. The Taoiseach should know that, unless the unemployment situation is eased and production increased, the balance of payments position will become a very serious problem in the near future.

I will conclude by referring to the Taoiseach's statement last night when he was challenged about a general election. I think it was typical of the Taoiseach, but I will not say it was of all the Fianna Fáil Party. He said he would go to the country when it would suit himself, and when it would be in the interests of his Party. He is a shrewd politician, and he qualified that by stating that he believed the interests of the country could only be served by his Party. I will conclude my few remarks by asking the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach to make good the Taoiseach's promise last night, that he will only allow money to be spent on schemes of a capital development nature which are reproductive.

I have given the Minister a list of such works that could be undertaken. I think the list will bear the closest scrutiny. If the Minister thinks it worth his while to take that list he can, through the Board of Works, get all the data that he requires in regard to the carrying out of the schemes I have suggested on the hundreds of thousands of acres of land in the Counties of Sligo and Leitrim that need to be reclaimed.

You will have the House sitting until 12 o'clock to-morrow night.

That is what you are paid for.

It is a pity that you could not get a better job then.

Who knows but some day I may be occupying the job that you have. You must be terribly anxious to get back to enjoy the luxury of your own home.

I do not see what the luxury of my home has to do with this debate, but at least it is an honest home. I hope yours is just as good.

It is when you are out of it. This is a shocking way we are being treated in the House by the Minister for Finance. This dapper little man—the boosting he gets in the English papers must have gone to his head when he will not listen to a country Deputy speaking of the genuine grievances which the country is suffering from at the moment. The Minister and his Party, for 17 years, ignored the warning they had got. From 1948 to 1951 it was proved beyond yea or nay that there is an alternative Government, and that the people are clamouring for the day when they will get the chance of putting that Government back into power again, so that the prosperity and peace which they enjoyed then will be restored.

There is a saying that there is honour among thieves. After listening, however, to the speech of Deputy T.F. O'Higgins here this evening and apprehending the despicable trick which he proposes to play on the people of this country and his lame-legged attempt to convict me of falsehood, I am doubtful if any sense of honour lies in the breasts of some members of the Fine Gael Party.

Deputy O'Higgins alleged that when I stated that the Budget of 1951-52 showed a deficit of £6,680,000 I was misleading the House and the country and, as proof of that, he had recourse to the Appropriation Accounts for 1951-52 and, turning to the summary of these accounts, he referred to a statement at the end of that summary which said that an amount had to be surrendered and on the basis of that statement, he alleged that so far from the Budget of 1951-52 showing a deficit, it showed a surplus of something like £4,000,000.

Now, of course, I do not know whether this was merely the natural disposition of Deputy O'Higgins to try to mislead the public——

Mr. O'Higgins

Being personal again.

——or whether it was merely infantile ignorance on his part. Most members of this House who have been here for two or three years at least know that what appears in this summary of the Appropriation Accounts is a statement of the authority to expend moneys which has been given to the Government by the Dáil and that this reference to surplus to be surrendered merely indicates the extent to which that authority was not used. It has got nothing whatsoever to do with the Budget statement.

Mr. O'Higgins

That is a fair excuse.

It has nothing what-sover to do with the balance on the Budget, whether it shows a surplus or a deficit.

Mr. O'Higgins

That is a fair excuse.

Deputy O'Higgins ought to have been a little bit better informed before he tried to play that trick on an experienced member of the House, because, if the Deputy will turn to the Appropriation Accounts for 1949-50 he will see at the foot of the summary this statement: "Total amount to be surrendered, £7,074,000". On the basis, on the lines of the argument which the Deputy used when he was speaking a little while ago in this debate, it would appear from that that Deputy McGilligan had a surplus on the Budget for the year 1949-50 of over £7,000,000.

It was not faked then.

Of course, while Deputy O'Higgins may want to make a liar out of me when he misuses the Appropriation Accounts of 1951-52, does he now accuse Deputy McGilligan of making a liar of himself? Because, if the Deputy will turn to the Budget speech of 1950 made by DeputyMcGilligan and turns to Table 1 of the tables which were appended to that speech, he will find that Deputy McGilligan himself admitted that on the Budget for the year 1949-50 there was a deficit of £2,665,000.

Mr. O'Higgins

That is taken out of its context.

That is not taken out of its context. Here are the two things.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Minister knows well that he is taking something out of its context.

I have here the table. Deputy O'Higgins will not get away with that falsehood.

Mr. O'Higgins

It is taken out of its context.

Here is the word: "Table I. Comparison between (i) Budget (May, 1949) Estimates and (ii) Payments into Exchequer and Issues Therefrom in 1949-50." Looking at the revenue side, I see No. 1, tax revenue, which is stated and No. 2, non-tax revenue which is stated. Then on the other side giving the expenditure there are four items, all of which are given and then, on the revenue side of the 1949-50 Budget account there appear under item (3) the words: "Deficit, £2,665,000." But, in the Appropriation Accounts for that year on the summary there appears that the amount to be surrendered—the extent of spending authority which was to be surrendered and to be revoted by the Dáil for supply in the following year— amounted to £7,074,000.

Mr. O'Higgins

Will the Minister answer a question?

I am perfectly well aware of the fact that although I have convicted the Deputy here of a mean and shallow trick, I will not be able nor will the members of the Fianna Fáil Party be able to overtake that misrepresentation in the country.

Mr. O'Higgins

Will the Minister answer a question?

The Deputy will resume his seat. Deputy O'Higgins has no licence to interrupt when the Minister is concluding.

Mr. O'Higgins

That is a phrase that might have been applied to the Minister when I was speaking. He was consistently interrupting.

I called the Deputy's attention to the fact that he was deliberately endeavouring to mislead the House by quoting a figure which had no reference whatever to the Budget Table.

Mr. O'Higgins

You were caught out on a falsehood.

I cannot stigmatise Deputy O'Higgins in terms which would be parliamentary in this House, but I leave any member of this House——

Mr. O'Higgins

You have done it before.

——I leave any member of this House to read what I have said and to read what Deputy O'Higgins said and then let us see between which of us truth or falsehood lies.

Mr. O'Higgins

Let the people decide.

Let the Minister make his statement without interruptions.

The Deputy, of course, is full of Dutch courage because in four Fine Gael constituencies——

Mr. O'Higgins

Five.

——in four Fine Gael constituencies we did not manage to defeat a Fine Gael candidate. We did not manage to defeat the Coalition candidate, but do not let the Deputy forget that out of the six by-elections which were fought the one constituency in which the majority changed sides was that of North Mayo, which we won for the Fianna Fáil Party. In that case a minority was converted into a majority. That is only by the way—I know that merely to try and nail here this puerile attempt at misrepresentation by Deputy O'Higgins before it gains further currency will not be enough. I know that the factory has started and that we will have all sorts of little surreptitious clandestine pamphlets and circulars sent out from Fine Gael headquarters, and it may not be possible for us to overtake them, but here in this House, at any rate, the trick has been shown up.

Mr. O'Higgins

You were caught out.

What are the reasons for and why should the House concede this Vote on Account? First of all, as to the reason why the Vote on Account should be given, it is that if it is not given, virtually all the public services will close down at the end of this month. It becomes therefore a matter of urgent necessity to place the Government of the day in funds to enable it to carry on the public services. It is true that it is unusual to have a second Vote on Account in the course of the year, but it is not unique. As the Minister for External Affairs showed yesterday in reply to Deputy Blowick, we had a second Vote on Account in 1928-29; one in 1932-33; a third one in 1943-44; and this is the fourth time in which it has been necessary to introduce a second Vote on Account.

The reason why it has been necessary to introduce a second Vote on Account this year is that no fewer than 43 of the Estimates have not yet been discussed and voted upon in this Dáil. It is usual every year for Dáil Éireann to appropriate the necessary money to enable the public services to be carried on long before the end of July. As a general rule, the Estimates are passed and the Appropriation Bill goes to the Seanad about the first or second week in July. This year is one of the four signal occasions on which it has not been possible for Dáil Éireann to dispose of the ordinary business of the session. Why? Because, though those Deputies in opposition pretend that they are full of concern for the public well-being, they have embarked on apolicy of deliberate obstruction, particularly on the part of Fine Gael. For days the members of that Party repeated themselves 100 times on the Health Bill. They obstructed that measure, despite the almost open dissatisfaction of the Labour Party at the attitude which they had taken up.

Mr. O'Higgins

Is this an attack on the Chair?

I want to put a number of questions to some members of the Labour Party. In the debate on the vote of confidence, Deputy Larkin addressed a query to certain members of this Dáil. Let me put this question to Deputy Larkin and those in the Labour Party who stand with him. If the Government had been defeated on that vote of confidence, what would have happened to the Health Bill? If the Government were to be defeated on this motion for a Vote on Account, what would happen to the Health Bill? The Labour Party, at least here in Dublin and I think elsewhere, I am sure quite genuinely and sincerely purports to be concerned not only with the manual workers, but with the white-collar workers, with the salaried officials, with what you might describe as the man who is in the lower middle-class income group.

The Health Bill, with whatever imperfections it may have and whatever its deficiencies may be from the point of view of the Labour Party and of some other members of this House, is the first social measure that has endeavoured to make any provision for the white-collar worker or for the man in the middle-class income group. It is, therefore, germane and relevant to this discussion to ask the members of the Labour Party, if they propose to vote against the Government on this Vote on Account, to let us know what they think will happen to the Health Bill?

Tell us about the unemployed and never mind the Health Bill.

I will come to the unemployed in due course. If this Health Bill were to be defeated and ifFine Gael were to come back and hold office for a little while, who would be their real rulers, who would be the people who would make policy in this country?

Mr. O'Higgins

Not Deputy Cowan.

Would it be Dáil Éreann or the Irish Medical Association? Does not the Labour Party know as well as I do that the Fine Gael Party is a Party which is dominated by vested interests?

That is not so.

During the debate on the Finance Bill, during the debate on the Budget, during the debate on this Vote on Account, we have listened to their leaders speaking here as if the one supreme specific for all our national ills would be that the people of Ireland should have cheaper drink. Then they come and tell us they are not dominated by vested interests.

Cheaper dances.

Is it not quite true, as I have said, that the Fine Gael Party are dominated by a philosophy which has always been opposed to progressive social measures in this country? At the end of 1946, or early in 1947, when the Bill to enable the Department of Health to be set up as a separate Government Department in order that the question of the people's health might receive closer attention than it had been possible to give it heretofore under one Minister, did not Deputy John A. Costello, when the new health services were foreshadowed, refer to them as "just a row of medicine bottles"? Have we not heard Deputy McGilligan even in this debate refer to social welfare as leading up to the servile State? Did he not make a speech immediately before the East Cork election, in which he quite clearly indicated that, so far as social reform and social progress in this country were concerned, if he had his way there would be a full stop to them?

He was not in Cork during the election. He never put a foot there.

The point I should like to put to Deputy Larkin, who was good enough to say that for many years there had been a close association of ideas and a spirit of co-operation between the Labour Party and the Fianna Fáil Party——

Mr. O'Higgins

Is this the man you called a Communist some years ago?

I am speaking of Deputy Larkin as I have come to know him in this House and I am referring to the speech which he made on the Vote of Confidence and in which he pointed out that there had been a spirit of co-operation and a similarity of outlook in regard to these social problems existing between the Fianna Fáil Party and the Labour Party. Then, apparently because we had not consulted them sufficiently often, or for one reason or another, the Labour Party determined to take it out on Fianna Fáil. Is is just that for such a reason as that the Labour Party should place in jeopardy the Health Bill and the other measures of progress which this Government will undoubtedly put forward before the Dáil in due course? Is it just that the Labour Party should try to unseat us to put Fine Gael in office merely for the sake of paying off an old grudge?

Deputy Larkin told us in the course of his speech that the Labour Party desires to assert its independence. That may be his desire. I am sure it is. I think that has been the line which Deputy Larkin has been very anxious to pursue for several years past. He was particularly anxious to pursue it during the period that the Coalition was in power.

If that is his desire, does he think he can make it effective having regard to the composition of the Labour Party as it is to-day? Is it not well known that many members of the Labour Party have closer association with some members of Fine Gael than they have with their own colleagues? When it became necessary for the purposeof serving the political interest of Fine Gael to try to oust Deputy Dr. Browne from the Cabinet, who was the man who wielded the bludgeon against him but the present chairman of the Labour Party? Was not his voice the decisive one? Even though Deputy Larkin was anxious to uphold and support Deputy Noel Browne, Deputy Norton, to serve the interests of Fine Gael succeeded in killing——

On a point of order. Is this definitely related to the Vote on Account and the discussion? Are the Labour Party activities the proper subject matter for a reply? We will look after ourselves without your assistance. You look after Deputy Cowan.

This may be very uncomfortable.

This is a falsehood.

I am putting these questions to the Labour Party. They tell us they are very anxious to have a general election. These are questions that will be raised on public platforms.

Can we have your ruling, Sir? You are the Chairman.

The Minister, as far as the Chair can see, is replying to points made by the various Parties during the debate.

By whom?

The Minister is entitled to reply to those points.

Do you not know perfectly well that the Minister who is speaking has no access to any record that would verify what he is suggesting?

That is not a matter for the Chair.

He is taking advantage of Deputy Larkin's absence.

Deputy Larkin is here in the City of Dublin and so isDeputy Norton. They will be in the Division Lobby in due course.

Will you bet on it?

I thought you were not a betting man?

I would not mind betting with you.

I am putting it to the Labour Party, who have consistently supported Fine Gael during the last few years, questions they will have to answer, not here in this House, but in the country.

Hear, hear!

That is, if they should succeed in unseating this Government before it has completed its programme. They are very germane and very relevant questions and I think they are questions which Deputy Davin and Deputy O'Leary are finding very uncomfortable. They do not like the suggestion that there is working inside the Labour Party a fifth column for Fine Gael.

You are the leader of it.

Every worker in the country who has ever supported the Labour Party in the past is asking that question. We have heard a great deal about general elections and we have heard a great deal about by-elections. What is the significant thing about one particular by-election?

A Deputy

In North-West Dublin?

Take the by-election which occurred in an industrial centre, in the third largest city in Ireland, Limerick. What happened in that constituency?

Mr. O'Higgins

What happened to Fianna Fáil?

The Labour Party's vote was cut by almost two-thirds.

Mr. O'Higgins

So was Fianna Fáil's.

The Labour vote was reduced from over 6,000 to just over 2,000.

You lost the seat anyhow.

We had never any hope of winning that seat because there was a Coalition majority against us.

That is an insult to Mr. Clarke.

From the beginning to the end we had no hope of winning that election for the simple reason that there was a Coalition majority of 3,000 against us in Limerick East. This happened again in East Cork. What happened to the Labour vote there? There was a decrease in the Labour vote in East Cork of great significance. When the Labour vote was distributed quite a substantial slice of it went to the Fianna Fáil candidate.

In what proportion?

Let the Labour people take care.

We will get it back again.

There was quite a large number of votes which were not transferred to the Fine Gael candidate but remained non-transferable. Let the Labour Party watch its step.

The Minister is avoiding percentages.

For goodness' sake let the man talk. He is doing terrific.

It is quite clear from the manner in which the Labour Party preferences went in West Cork and in Wicklow——

It was Fianna Fáil votes that gave Fine Gael the seat in Wicklow.

It was Clann na Poblachta who gave them the seat. They double-crossed you. Anyhow, let Labour keep these things in mind.

Hear, hear!

I do not pretend tobe a prophet—I am merely basing my estimates on past experience—but from the figures of the by-elections it looks as if there is going to be a very blue look-out for the Labour Party at the next election.

What about the Dublin by-election? You had a big, strong man up against a young man.

Naturally, I cannot make what you might describe as a well-balanced, well-formed speech, having regard to the multitudinous matters that have been raised here. However, there are one or two things I think I ought to deal with. Deputy Dillon, the moonstruck Demosthenes, occupied two hours of the time of this House telling us what a wicked thing it was that our Central Bank or that our commercial banks should hold any sterling assets whatsoever.

I remember prior to 1939 when we were endeavouring to repatriate sterling assets and to build up the capital equipment of this country the man who was most bitterly opposed to that policy was Deputy Dillon. Every week that the Dáil was sitting we had a long repetitious speech from Deputy Dillon which apparently had been carefully rehearsed before he came to the House in which his one theme was that this country was going headlong into bankruptcy because the external assets of this country were being repatriated and invested in our cement factories, our sugar factories, development of our bogs and housing activities and in the various social amenity schemes which we launched over the period from 1933 to 1938.

Yesterday the Deputy complained that we were lending considerable sums of money to the British Government at 1¼ per cent., and he seemed to think that that was the source of all our ills. While the Deputy may complain about the fact that the Central Bank has its assets invested in short-term securities, upon which the yield is, of course, correspondingly small, what has the Deputy to say and what have the members of the Labour Party to say about borrowing on behalf of another country, about pledging the credit of the State on behalfof another country, about mortgaging the future production of this State on behalf of another country? That, of course, is what the Coalition Government did.

We have heard something in the course of this debate about the Marshall Aid loan and about the manner in which the proceeds of the loan were supposed to have been disposed of. Let us see, why was it that the Marshall Aid loan was raised at all. We will find the answer to that in a statement which was issued, an official statement issued and published on the 23rd June, 1948, in which the concluding paragraph contains this sentence:—

"The Government of Éire will use its utmost endeavours to obtain the maximum amount of aid available under the E.R.P. with the object of ensuring, as far as practicable, that their resources to the sterling area pool for hard currencies will not involve any ultimate drain on the pool."

There was an undertaking given by the delegation of the Coalition which went to Great Britain to pledge the credit of this country on behalf of another nation or group of nations. I want the Dáil to keep that fact in mind because I hope to show that the manner in which that money was borrowed, the manner in which that money was spent, plays a very large part and has been a very great influence in creating the economic problems with which we are faced to-day.

Let us see what the general position of the Government is. Capital expenditure as far as the Government is concerned is higher than it ever was before and accordingly the volume of employment should be correspondingly greater.

Never was it less.

Expenditure on social welfare in the year 1952-53 amounted to £16.9 million as against £12.3 million in 1950-51. That is to say that there has been an increase of transferable expenditure amounting to £4.6 million. That money goes out intothe hands of people who do not hold it and do not hoard it. It goes out to be spent. It goes out into circulation. It ought, if anything, to help the volume and velocity of trade. We can have a dozen other proofs that the Government's policy is not deflationist.

There is no truth in the suggestion made here in this House that there has been any curtailment of credit. On the contrary, there has been a loosening of credit, particularly in the first six months of this year. It is quite true that for a period while stocks were being liquidated and while prices were falling there was a reluctance on the part of commercial banks to advance money to traders to enable them to hold their stocks. That of course, was normal, for a proposition which never appeals to a banker is to advance money to a trader to enable him to hold stocks at a time when the price trend is downwards. As soon however, as the excess stocks have been liquidated and as soon as overdrafts which were represented by them began to be paid off the general policy, I should say, of the commercial banks has been to try to make advances to those of their customers who are creditworthy. But they cannot make advances—let us face up to this fact— to people who are trembling on the verge of bankruptcy or who they think will not honour their commitments.

It is true—and a great deal of attention has been devoted to it in the course of this debate—that there has been a considerable increase in the live register over the first six months of this year, but as I explained, I think, in concluding on the first Vote on Account, a very large part of that increase arises from the fact that many people who were formerly on unemployment assistance have come on to the unemployment benefit section of the register, and many people who were excluded altogether from unemployment insurance have now been included within its scope and accordingly are in a position to register; and, of course, there is a very great inducement to people to register in the category of "others" in order to secure credited contributions, people who formerly by reason of theoperation of employment period orders would have been cut off the register altogether. These people are now coming in and registering even during the summer months in order that they may become entitled to the 26 contributions which enable them to go on to the unemployment benefit part of the register and draw unemployment benefit in due course.

Now, as I have shown many things, each and every one of them, should be operating if you like to increase employment here, but we have the fact, and nobody is trying to blink it, that there is, if one might say so, trying to compare like with like, trying to compare the conditions of last year with those of this, and leaving out of consideration the general effect of the new Social Welfare Act, that there is an increase of about 6,000 unemployed persons. I have pointed out all the inflationary factors in the Budget—the huge increase in Government expenditure, the increase in the capital expenditure of the Government, the increase in the transferred expenditure in the form of improved and extended social services—and each and every one of these ought to operate to increase consumer expenditure and to produce employment. But there is some nigger in the woodpile which is not permitting that to be done, and what is it? In my opinion, the one predominant positive deflationary factor in our economy is the interest which we are called upon to pay for the Marshall Aid Loan.

Last year, in round figures, we paid £600,000 out of the circulation of this country in hard cash to America. Let us not talk in terms of hundreds of thousands. Let any businessman sitting opposite ask himself this question: "If I take £600 out of my business every year and pay it away as interest on a loan which I raised in order to buy maize and tobacco and petrol— corn which has been eaten, tobacco which has been smoked four or five years ago—to what sort of condition is my business being reduced?" Just any of you ask yourselves that question in these simple terms. If, instead of £600 it is £600,000, as it was last year, it is £1,200,000 this year, what doesthat mean? This year we will have to find in round figures £1,200,000 for interest. That sum will be withdrawn from our capital resources—£1,200,000 which would have flown through the whole of our economy, enriching it, stimulating trade, stimulating production to eight times the equivalent of it. No exact calculation has been made or attempted, but just let us consider that position in the light of the well-known multiplier effect and visualise what the consequence of this Marshall Aid Loan is to the Government which has succeeded the Government that contracted it.

That is the one positive deflationary factor in our whole economy. So far as Government policy is concerned, it is not deflationary. We do not want wide open inflation, but want to develop our national resources and try to keep the ship on an even keel. We want to try to defray the amounts involved in capital development out of current savings.

The one thing, I repeat, that is operating to restrict credit and to make trade bad is that in this year we have to withdraw £1,200,000 from the use of business and pay it over to the United States. I do not say that in any criticism of the United States. I say it in criticism of those who entered into that loan without fully considering what it involved and what the economic consequences of it would be.

It has been suggested that the Taoiseach, in particular, and the members of his Party had some responsibility for the Marshall Aid loan. Deputy MacBride, taking statements of the Taoiseach out of their context, has endeavoured to create that impression many times. Before I go on to deal with that I want the House to consider one aspect of the matter here and now. We have heard a lot in the course of the debate about the 5 per cent. interest which the last National Loan carries. Does not everyone realise that the interest on the National Loan is paid, in the main, to our own people? As to 95 per cent. of it—I am making a guess, but the figure is of that order—the interest is paid to our own people. Those to whom itis paid pay income-tax on that interest, so that the net charge to the Exchequer, after the deduction of income-tax, is very much less than 5 per cent. On the other hand, the interest paid to the United States carries no income-tax. It is a net payment and in gross terms it very closely approximates to a gross rate of 5 per cent. chargeable to tax.

I said a moment ago that Deputy MacBride had endeavoured to make the Fianna Fáil Party carry responsibility for the Marshall Aid Loan. He has indulged in the very discreditable procedure of quoting statements made by the Taoiseach out of their context. So far from this Party showing any ill-considered, impetuous desire to raise a foreign loan, the Party took quite the opposite and cautious view. In order to establish that, I propose to quote what the Tánaiste said in the debate which took place here on the 1st July, 1948, on the O.E.E.C. As reported in Volume 111 of the Official Debates, column 2014, Deputy Lemass said, criticising the suggestion that we might be forced to take a loan:—

"I am speaking from recollection. I say that there was good reason to believe, as a result of personal contacts by Government officials with American officials in Washington, that the details of the aid that was to be made available to this country by way of grant and the specific commodities that were to be shipped had been informally agreed, and that the agreement would be carried into effect as soon as the legal position permitted of it."

Then Deputy de Valera, speaking as the Leader of the Opposition, reported at column 2058, said:—

"An international agreement is a very serious matter. I think it is highly desirable that every clause and every sentence of it should be examined carefully.... It seems to me that this agreement appears to be objectionable to a number of Deputies here from the fact that it is in a general form."

Then he went on to say, dealing withthe reasons, notwithstanding the fact that we had not had time to consider it in every line, every clause and every sentence:—

"The agreement is intended, I think, to serve two purposes from our point of view: first of all to enable us by co-operation to do something to aid the other countries of Europe to recover and to establish themselves on a sound economic basis and it is also intended to help ourselves."

He said then, with regard to the first question, that it was his view that we should do everything we possibly could to help Europe. Then he went on to say:—

".... when I say that, I mean, of course, that we are restricted by what is right for us to do as a nation —everything within our power in that sense to help Europe back to normal conditions."

He went on—and these are very significant passages—in column 2059:—

"If we come actually to the point of asking for a loan, I think it would be very unwise for us to ask for any loan unless we are able to see clearly our ability to repay it."

Later he said:—

"It is a matter for very serious consideration that—if the accommodation must be by way of loan— before we ask for it we should clearly see our way to repayment."

He went on again to refer to an Irish proverb which we have often heard him quote in this House, "drinking is very pleasant but paying for it is bitter". Paying the interest on this Marshall Aid is a bitter thing, from the point of view of our Irish economy— not because we are paying it to the Americans but because of the fact that it represent a withdrawal from the use of our people and this nation of a vast sum in capital resources. He then went on and said:—

"I would prefer myself if we had more time to study the agreement. For my part, I have not studied it in full detail."

—and he went on, again, to repeat his warning:—

"For our own part, I think that before we ask for either a gift or a loan, with this agreement in front of us, we ought to ask ourselves how we are going to be able to repay the loan and to pay the interest, and, if it is a grant, whether the obligations which we enter into are of such a character that we can enter into them with the necessary degree of confidence. As I have said, I would rather if this matter could be left over for further consideration..."

But it was celebrated in the British Embassy in Paris.

A celebration at the British Embassy in Paris had nothing to do with it. Deputy MacBride was then Minister for External Affairs and he replied to this debate. In doing so, he took the attitude he has made so familiar in this House of the very superior person reproving the irresponsibles who happened to be opposed to his point of view. As reported at colunm 2072 of Volume 111 of the Official Report, Deputy MacBride, who was then the Minister for External Affairs, said:—

"I do not know whether or not to get cross with Deputy Lemass, but I do wish that in matters relating to external affairs, he would display a somewhat greater sense of responsibility."

If Deputy MacBride had sat in the Cabinet of this country during the period of the war years, when we were bringing this country safely through— instead of, as he was, trying to rock the boat—he might have found some justification for talking to Deputy Lemass in those terms.

Again, the Minister is availing of the absence of Deputy MacBride to make these remarks.

Who is responsible for his absence?

Why is he not here?

We have been hearing quite a lot from Deputy MacBride about good conduct and good behaviour in this House and about how we should all be models of department in this House. One thing which I think no honest man should try to do in an Assembly like this is to sell them a gold brick. Listen to the sort of bait which Deputy MacBride was holding out on July 1st, 1948, as reported at column 2067 of the Official Report:—

"Under this agreement this country will, in effect, over a period of four years, receive a sum ranging from £100,000,000 to £150,000,000."

Of course, we received nothing of the sort. What we did do was to sign three promissory notes under which we have borrowed, I think, a sum equivalent at current rates to £41,000,000 or £42,000,000.

Let me come to another aspect of this transaction—and the only reason I am dealing with it now is to refute the suggestions which have been made on Opposition platforms that the Fianna Fáil Party were in any way involved in or carried any responsibility for the negotiations which led up to this loan. So far from being precipitate in looking for it, so far from being anxious to accept a loan on any terms, the Fianna Fáil Party, through the former Minister for Finance, Deputy Aiken, who is the present Minister for External Affairs, raised the whole question in this House on the 7th July, 1948, as to whether, before any commitment or agreement was entered into or any obligation was accepted on the part of this State and our people, this House would have an opportunity of discussing the terms of the proposed arrangement. Deputy Aiken, as he was then, raised that question on the Adjournment. In doing so, he referred to a statement which I have quoted earlier but which I think I should quote again. It was the last paragraph of the official statement issued in relation to the negotiations which took place in London in June, 1948, and it reads as follows:—

"The Government of Ireland haveundertaken to the British Government—"

We have been hearing a lot about a Minister for Finance who is—it has been falsely alleged—subservient to the British Chancellor, but listen to this:—

"—to use their utmost endeavours to obtain the maximum amount of aid available under the E.R.P. with the object of ensuring as far as practicable that their recourse to the sterling area pool for hard currency will not involve any ultimate drain on that pool."

In a speech on that Adjournment debate, Deputy Aiken said:—

"The Minister for External Affairs, when winding up the debate on the recent American agreement, said:—

‘Under this agreement this country will, in effect, over a period of four years, receive a sum ranging from £100,000,000 to £150,000,000'."

Then Deputy Aiken went on to say:—

"I put a question to the Minister for Finance to-day asking him whether he would give the Dáil an opportunity of considering the terms and conditions as to repayment of any proposed foreign loan before the Government agrees to accept it."

Deputy McGilligan, the then Minister for Finance, said, as reported at column 238 of the Official Report:—

"I am prepared to acquaint Dáil Éireann with the terms and conditions applicable to the proposed loan and, if necessary, have a discussion on the matter."

He said, however, that if it were a question of clinching the loan at a particular time he thought he was entitled to clinch it and to get approval afterwards. He did clinch it at a particular time—at a time when the Dáil was not in session. He signed the first promissory note on 28th October, 1948, and the Dáil did not reassemble until, I think, the 17th November of that year. While he tabled the papers, he neverbrought the question of the loan forward for discussion.

We have heard again a great deal about the improvident way in which Fianna Fáil are alleged to have managed the country's finances. I want, in that connection, to advert to a statement which was made by Deputy Lemass, in July, 1948—a statement in which he said, among other things, that, according to the information which was available to him when he was a member of the Government in 1947-48, he thought we were going to get substantial aid from America by way of grant and not by way of loan. Of course, whatever the prospects were of getting a substantial amount by way of grant from America in 1947 or 1948, they were killed the moment that the statement appeared in the newspapers to the effect that the Coalition Government had given pledges to the British Government that they would use their utmost endeavours to obtain the maximum amount of aid available under the E.R.P. They had given hostages to fortune. They were in a cleft stick. What Government, knowing that the Irish Government had committed themselves to that—and the statement was published—would give the Irish Government a substantial amount by way of free grant for that purpose? It is on the level of the flat-footed diplomacy which led us into the mess about the Republic of Ireland Act, when the members of the Government had to go flying over to Great Britain to try and protect our people from the consequences of that ill-timed and ill-prepared announcement.

What were the consequences?

You had Deputy McGilligan, Deputy MacBride and the Attorney-General all flying over to Chequers, and then flying over to Paris and back again, trying to fix up things that should have been a matter of agreement long before any announcement was made about their policy. Here again, as I have said, they gave hostages to fortune when they issued that statement. Of course the consequence of that blunder is that to-day we are saddled with thisexceedingly burdensome payment. Again, we have been told a great deal about the dire position in which this country is. I am going to leave Marshall Aid because I think I have fairly well disposed of the suggestion that the Fianna Fáil Party was in any way responsible for or had any hand, act or part in the negotiations which led up to the contracting of that loan. Before I do, however, I want to mention the fact—if I may revert to it for one moment—that under that agreement we are paying this year £1,136,000 which has to be converted into dollars. Whatever the rate of exchange will be, payment has to be made in dollars so that if there should be any depreciation in the £ the burden upon this country would be very much heavier. That is the position this year. I have pointed out what its effects are so far as the general economy of the country is concerned. I want also, however, to remind the House that in the year 1956 we shall be paying not only the interest on the loan but we will be called upon to begin to repay the principal and that however disadvantageous the present payment of merely the interest may be to our economy, and to our present circumstances, the repayment of the Marshall loan is going to be very much more disadvantageous still and is going to continue for a generation.

We have heard a great deal in the course of this debate about the depressed condition of this country and some people suggested that our agriculture and industrial output have been on the decline. A Cheann Comhairle, if there is going to be a hum of conversation from the benches opposite it will be useless for me to address the House. It has been suggested throughout the course of this debate that there had been a general decline in the productive activity of this community over the past year. The extraordinary thing about it is that for the first time since 1938 there has been an increase in the volume of agricultural production. It has increased, as I said in a letter which appeared in the paper, by 1.6 per cent. in volume and I think it is going to be still higher this year.

Deputiesought to know that it is not proper to carry on a conversation in the benches.

The Minister's speech is so dreary that we cannot bear it.

There should be a little bit of respect shown to the House.

Deputy Blowick is not compelled to sit in the House and he might relieve an overburdened Chair if he left it. This morning we heard a great deal from Deputy Declan Costello about transportable goods. The fact of the matter is that the volume index for the production of transportable goods was 4.4 per cent. higher for the March quarter, 1953——

I want to call the Chair's attention to the fact that the two Deputies whom he corrected for shouting across the alleyway are at it again—Deputy Blowick and Deputy Collins.

I can only repeat that conversations of that kind are interruptions of the speaker in possession. Deputies should not conduct a conversation on the benches.

Deputy Declan Costello this morning stated that the volume of industrial production had declined. I want to put it on record for the information of the House that so far from there being a decline there has been an increase of 4.4 per cent. in the March quarter of 1953 as compared with the March quarter of 1952. Not only that but the national income —and we have been hearing a great deal here about the shortage of purchasing power and so on—in real terms increased in the year 1952. The data to support that statement will be available I hope to members of the Oireachtas and to the general public within a few weeks. Farmers incomes went up by £10.6 million in 1952 and employees, incomes went up by£9,000,000. Exports rose by £20,000,000 in 1952 and are still rising. In the first six months of 1953 they were 5.8 per cent. higher than in the corresponding six months of 1952.

I want to call the Chair's attention again to the fact that the two Deputies are talking to each other.

The Deputies will please restrain themselves. I can hear the conversion on the benches.

Is it not that the Minister for External Affairs is exasperated at the "bags" the Minister for Finance is making of his speech?

I am pointing out that last year the balance of payments deficit which had been £61.6 million for the year 1951 had been reduced to a tolerable level—one which we can control. At least it is of manageable dimensions and will enable us to proceed in an orderly and prudent way to repatriate such of the external assets as we can usefully use in this country.

An attempt was made—and I am going to recount some figures which the Minister for External Affairs gave to the House yesterday—to depict the people of this country as if they were haggard and starved for want of food. I will take the year 1950—I am not counting the year 1951 because we were in during the latter half of that year and the Opposition were in during the first part. Take creamery butter, about which we have heard so much. I heard people saying that they could not buy creamery butter in this country. I heard Deputy Roddy and a number of others say it. Deputy Blowick seems to have said that also. Perhaps, I was not listening to him with the attention he ought to have.

Tell us where to laugh.

The consumption of creamery butter per head per week in the year 1950 amounted to 8.63 ounces. In the year 1952 it amounted to 8.95 ounces.Clearly it had not gone down. It might not have increased very much but there was no decrease and there were fewer tourists here in 1952 than in 1950. Take the case of beef. The average consumption per week per head of beef in the year 1950 was 10.14 ounces and in the year 1952 it had increased to 10.74 ounces.

The average consumption per head per week of mutton in 1950 was 3.09 ounces and in 1952, 4.03 ounces. In 1950 the average consumption of fresh fish was 2.52 ounces and in 1952 it was 2.70 ounces.

Red herrings.

No. The general public did not consume these and Deputy Davin's consumption of red herrings was not taken account of in the average. In the year 1950 the consumption per head per week of sugar was 18.55 ounces and in 1952 it was 21.16 ounces. In the year 1950 the consumption of bread amounted to 3.49 lb. per head per week and in 1952 it was 3.60 lb per head per week. In the year 1950 the consumption of household flour amounted to 2.12 lb. per head per week, and in the year 1952 it amounted to 2.18 lb.

What about the first half of 1953?

Deputies may laugh and snigger at these figures.

It is the butter ration he is talking about.

What is the consumption of margarine?

We are anxious to hear something about the unemployed.

Perhaps you will talk about the £100,000,000 Deputy MacBride was to get from America or the £1,136,000 for which we have to tax the people this year in order to send it to the United States. Perhaps that is what the Deputy is thinking of. In any event, whether they gibe, snigger or interrupt, these are the plain facts of the situation and they do not bear out the exaggerated statementswhich Deputies have been making in the course of this debate.

Undoubtedly, there are people suffering some privation in this country. Many of the people who are on the unemployed register are suffering. As, however, someone else has pointed out, under the Social Welfare Act of 1952 they are getting three times more than they were getting under the social welfare legislation of the Coalition Government. It may not be enough. It would be very much better if the people concerned were employed and at work. Let us not forget that when the first demand on our economy and upon the sweat, toil and labour of our people, is a demand to meet the interest we owe to the United States, certainly some elements of the population are bound to suffer.

It is our duty as a Government, however, to try and make sure that the suffering thus arising, the hardship and the privation, are spread over the greatest possible number of people and over the population as a whole. The only way that can be done is in the manner laid down in the Budget. It is the only way by which those who are well off in any community can help those who are less well off and more hardly pressed. That is what we have tried to do particularly in our first Budget in 1952. In the 1953 Budget we have again made provision on a scale that was never made before for widows' and orphans' pensions, old age pensions, children's allowances, unemployment assistance and unemployment insurance.

I have shown you the extent to which the Government is asking the taxpayer to contribute to ameliorate the lot of those people who are unfortunately deprived of the opportunity of earning their livelihood.

How are they going to get work?

The fact that they are unemployed is partly accidental and is partly due, as Deputy Cowan mentioned, to the fact that the building programme of the Dublin Corporation seemed to have run into slack water at a particular time. Private building—I know Deputy Collins may not be pleased to hear this nor will those Deputies who wish our people to think things are blacker and darker in this country than they are—is beginning to revive. There has been a greater volume of applications under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act.

On a point of order. Deputy Cowan explained the other night that the Dublin Corporation had a full programme in progress.

The Deputy got over 16 hours in which to speak.

I was saying that the number of applications under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act is increasing and that the amount of allocations under the Local Loans Fund and the Labourers' Acts is increasing, so that we may hope for a revival of private building in the near future. In any event, the main consideration is that, as the Taoiseach said last night, the worst of our task is over. We have succeeded in putting the finances of this country upon a sound basis and without sound public finances you cannot have a good or progressive Government. Now we are in a position to give the people that.

Before the Minister sits down, will he tell us where the unemployed are going to get work?

Somebody got drink somewhere.

Question put:—
The Committee divided: Tá, 64; Níl, 57.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Eamon.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Duignan, Peadar.
  • Fanning, John.
  • ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough.)
  • McCann, John.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Byrne, Thomas, N.J.
  • Carew, John.
  • Cawley, Patrick.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Davin, William.
  • Deering, Mark.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finan, John.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Lynch, John (North Kerry).
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mannion, John.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
  • O'Leary, Johnny.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamon.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
Tellers: Tá: Deputies Ó Briain an d Hilliard; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Mac Fheórais.
Question declared carried.
Resolution reported and agreed to.
Top
Share