Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Nov 1953

Vol. 143 No. 3

Adjournment Debate. - Price of Turkeys.

Mr. O. Flanagan

I addressed a query to the Minister for Agriculture this afternoon in connection with the price of turkeys and the price which producers are receiving for them. That query carries with it the anxiety, the disappointment and the distress that exists in the home of the producer of every single bird intended for the Christmas market. It carries with it a protest on behalf of the turkey producers, and as the Minister knows, the turkey producers are a very important section of the farming community.

To indicate the importance of the turkey producers I need only mention that we have had within the past few months every committee of agriculture in the Twenty-Six Counties giving grants, giving assistance and subsidising the production of turkeys. There were special facilities provided by various committees of agriculture in the way of turkey-cock stations; there were poultry instructors and instructresses in every county in the Twenty-Six Counties advising the people to produce turkeys for the Christmas market. An appeal came from every county committee in Ireland to the farmers to engage in a big way in the production of turkeys. The Department of Agriculture advised and recommended the committees of agriculture to encourage turkey production in a big way. There were various schemes for the promotion of the turkey industry approved and sanctioned by the Department of Agriculture to enable the committees of agriculture to improve conditions for the producers of turkeys.

We find now at the end of the season, after a very strenuous year, with the cost of feeding stuffs considerably increased and certainly no less than this time 12 months, instead ofthe usual farmers Christmas fund expected from the substantial income from the sale of turkeys, that every farmer in the country is sadly disappointed and disillusioned and has nothing but disgust to express with regard to the manner in which the Minister for Agriculture has treated them.

Everybody knows that the turkey is the most difficult and most expensive bird to rear. Everybody knows also that of all the birds or animals under the care of the farmer there is none with as high a death rate as turkeys, and in many cases it is as difficult to cater for turkeys as for any other bird or animal in its early weeks or months.

The Department of Agriculture have certainly asked committees of agriculture to increase turkey production this year above any other year. The Minister for Agriculture must have known that this year there were more turkeys produced in rural Ireland than ever before on account of the encouragement given by the Department. Surely when Eggsports were abolished by him he should have made some arrangements that the producers of turkeys would have been guaranteed against loss. When the inter-Party Government were in office the former Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, left behind £250,000 to guard against losses on turkey prices——

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Walsh)

That is wrong.

Mr. O. Flanagan

——because Deputy Dillon and the inter-Party Government put first the producer of these very necessary birds. During the term of the inter-Party Government the turkey producers were getting what was considered a reasonable and fair margin of profit. This year what do we find in the very latest report from the London and Liverpool markets? In that connection the Department of Agriculture published a report last week that there were no Irish turkeys on offer in the London market, that English cock turkeys were in good supply and making from 3/6 to 3/9 per lb. English hen turkeys of good quality were in short supply but those thatwere available were commanding from 4/10 to 5/2 a lb. Only a few Irish turkeys were on offer on the Liverpool market.

Mr. Cunningham

Read the Irish Independentto-day.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Here we see that the price for turkeys as reported from various parts of the country seems to be 1/2 and 1/- a lb. less than this time 12 months, that is to say, that the producers will lose on an 18 lb. turkey 18/- as compared with the price they got last year. It goes on to say: "The general opinion seemed to be that the live weight value of cocks would range from 2/- to 2/4 per lb., and the live weight value of hens from about 2/8 to 2/10 per lb."

Mr. Walsh

What is the Deputy quoting from?

Mr. O. Flanagan

I am quoting the general opinion.

Mr. Walsh

"It goes on to say." Would the Deputy say what he is quoting from?

Mr. O. Flanagan

"The following report has been received by the Department of Agriculture, giving the supply and price position of dead poultry on the London market yesterday."

Mr. Walsh

I am asking what the Deputy is quoting from.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Yesterday's Irish Independent.

Mr. Cunningham

Get to-day's.

Mr. O. Flanagan

I have here to-day's Irish Independent, which says that a leading exporter yesterday told theIrish Independentrepresentative that the general opinion seems to be that “the live weight value of cocks would range from 2/- to 2/4 per lb.”—that is 1/2 less than last year—and “the live weight value of hens would be from about 2/8 to 2/10 per lb.”— which is 1/- per lb. less than last year.

Mr. Walsh

No. Hen turkeys were 3/6 per lb. last year. Try to be honest.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Will they be 3/6this year? I am only trying to get the Minister to be fair to the turkey producers. All we want is that the Minister would gaurantee at least 3/6 per lb. to the producers and save them from very severe loss. £1 or 18/- is a lot for a farmer to lose on a bird that costs at least as much to produce this year as it did this time last year.

The English market is securing more continental turkeys this year than ever before. There seems to be more turkeys being secured for the British market from European countries than ever before. It is very unfortunate that the producers should be suffering this very severe loss, and that the Minister should be giving not alone the blind eye but the deaf ear to the reasonable requests of the hard-working, industrious and honest farmers, and particularly of their wives, who have devoted so much attention and energy to the production of turkeys and now find that it is at a very severe loss. I warn the Minister that it will turn the farming community against the production of turkeys next year. He has a few weeks left to make up for the disappointment that prevails at present.

This morning the Minister was asked:—

"....if he has any statement to make on the announcement made by his Department and published on the 11th November, 1953, in regard to the small supply of Irish turkeys available on the London market, and if in view of the small supply of other Irish fowl at the same market he will negotiate for increased fowl prices to induce producers to provide a greater supply."

The Minister replied:—

"The buying of turkeys in this country for the Christmas export trade does not normally begin until the third week of November, and up to then only very small quantities of Irish turkeys are exported to the British markets. As regards the second part of the question, the market in Great Britain for our poultry is free, and the question of my negotiating prices does not, therefore arise."

That is a most unfavourable reply. It is the Minister's duty to guard the farmers against loss. That is what he is there for. It is his duty, when he encouraged increased turkey production, to see they have not to be produced at a serious loss. I respectfully put to the Minister that the contempt with which he has treated the Irish farmer on this question will lead to a very serious reduction in the production of turkeys next year unless they are guaranteed a price. When his predecessor did it, there is nothing to stop him from safeguarding the Irish producer against loss. That is all he is asked to do. By a stroke of the pen the Minister can guarantee the Irish farmer 3/6 a lb. minimum price. There is nothing to stop him from doing that. On their behalf, in view of the manner in which they have been misled by the Department of Agriculture, I ask the Minister to do that. I make that request to him sincerely, knowing the disappointment that exists and the gloom that overshadows every home in rural Ireland because of the neglect and failure of the Minister to safeguard turkey producers against the very severe loss which faces them for the Christmas trade.

Can the Minister give a guarantee that the British are about to take from us, for the Christmas trade, all the turkeys we will have available for export? What has he to say about that? Does he still remain silent? Seeing the price that British turkeys have fetched in the Liverpool and London markets, we cannot expect less, because the Irish turkey is a far superior and a better bird than any of the British or continental turkeys. When the British farmer can get that price for turkeys on the Liverpool and London markets, why cannot the Irish farmer, for a better type of bird, get the same or a better price? He would, if we had a Minister for Agriculture to negotiate on a better price, but we have not. As far as this question is concerned, the Department of Agriculture has run amok and is being allowed to continue to run amok.

The Christmas trade is only three weeks away. In another three weeksthere will be no use in talking, as nothing can be done about it, but there is something the Minister can do about it now, and while he is in that position he is expected to do it. The Irish farmer expects him to do it, and if he does not move he is failing utterly in his duty and his responsibility to the Irish farmer. He knows the discontent that prevails in the turkey trade. He should have the courage and the gumption to say: "I will help him and give at least 3/6." Instead, he is treating this with silence. He tells the Irish turkey producer he is not interested in the case, that he is not prepared to fight for the same price that the British Minister of Agriculture has obtained for the British producers of turkeys. When the British farmer has a Minister of Agriculture who is prepared to pay a price for turkeys that will pay the British farmer and the British farmer's wife, is that not the least we could expect from the Irish Minister for Agriculture, pretending to be so interested in the production of turkeys and in the welfare of the farming community that he appealed to a few months ago to increase production? Now that they have done so, he is robbing them bare-backed by not guaranteeing them a fair price. That is all we ask him to do. I sincerely appeal to him to take steps to guarantee at least 3/6 a lb.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I agree wholeheartedly with the statement made by Deputy Flanagan. It is very difficult, indeed, to overestimate the importance of this branch of the poultry industry. It enables womenfolk in many parts of the country to provide themselves with a very good type of employment and obviates the necessity for many of them to emigrate. I believe the Minister is not taking the interest in this industry that he should take. There is a definite obligation on him and on his advisers to give every help and advice possible to turkey producers and to see that they get the best price possible.

Deputy Flanagan mentioned the discrepancy in prices compared with the English market. On 11th November Irish cock turkeys fetched 3/3 to 3/6there, while English hen turkeys fetched 4/10 to 5/- and English cocks 3/8 to 3/9. We all know that Irish turkeys are as good as can be found in the world, so this discrepancy should not exist. Why does the Minister not ensure that Irish turkeys—which are as good as English, if not better— fetch a better price? There is a definite obligation on him to give the House his reasons for not doing so. My information from a member of this House is that last week he sold turkeys to a firm in Dublin and received 3/8 for hens and 3/1 for cocks. In my own constituency in West Cork, where almost every farmyard and cottage holding has a fine flock of turkeys, the price obtaining is only 2/6. I want to find out from the Minister how it is that the price varies so much. How is it that a person selling in Dublin can get 8d. or 9d. per lb. more than will be got for a sale in the country? I cannot see why there should be such a difference.

As a Labour Deputy, I have no hesitation in supporting Deputy Flanagan's plea. He said the Minister should ensure that the producers get at least 3/6 per lb. I conclude now by asking the Minister to do everything he possibly can for the turkey producers— for, if he does not, we shall not be troubled with this issue next year because we shall have no turkeys.

Mr. Walsh

I gave an honest answer to-day to the question which the Deputy addressed to me. I said that since turkeys became free and Eggsports were abolished, the Minister has no function whatsoever in the matter of the fixation of price.

Mr. Rooney

Why abolish them?

Mr. Walsh

It is a free market now. Let us go back for a moment over the history of the guaranteed price for turkeys. In 1950, Deputy Dillon, who was Minister for Agriculture at the time, introduced a scheme whereby he guaranteed a price for turkeys at 4/-per lb. If he had permitted the turkeys to go on the free market at that time, and gave the Irish producer the price then obtaining on the Britishmarket, the Irish producer would have got 4/4 per lb. Deputy Dillon did not do so. He gave a price of 4/- per lb., and he put that 4d. extra per lb. into a fund which was reserved for the turkey producers. The 1951 season came along. I guaranteed a price of 4/- per lb. The price in that year should have been a farthing per lb. higher. I gained a sum of money and it also went into the fund. In 1952 there was a drop in the price of turkeys on the British market, but I guaranteed a price of 3/6 per lb., and, in guaranteeing that price, I lost 2½d. per lb. The result of that was that the fund which had been built up in 1950, and which was supplemented in 1951, became exhausted.

On the outbreak of the war in 1939, Eggsports came into existence in order to canalise poultry, turkeys and eggs through the British Ministry of Food. In 1950, the British Ministry of Food freed turkeys. They were then on a free market. Last year they were still sold on a free market. The price dropped in England from that which obtained in 1951. This year, there is no canalising of turkeys because Eggsports are gone. The individual shipper in this country appoints his own agents in Britain and puts his turkeys on the best possible market.

It may be information for the Deputies to learn that the price of turkeys has dropped in England. Last year, at this time, the price of Grade A turkeys averaged 4/5 per lb.

Mr. Rooney

It is 5/- now.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Yes.

Mr. Walsh

The average price at this particular time last year was 4/5 per lb. This year, that price has dropped. The best possible average price now available here would run about 3/10 per lb. That is the best possible price that can be paid here for turkeys.

Mr. O. Flanagan

On the London market?

Mr. Walsh

In England. Last year turkeys were making 4/5d. per lb. at this particular time. They have dropped 7d. per lb. in price this yearfrom the price which obtained this time last year on the British market. It is wrong for Deputy O. Flanagan to say that we went out of our way to tell our people here to produce turkeys.

Mr. O. Flanagan

You did.

Mr. Walsh

We did not. As a matter of fact, there are not more turkeys in this country this year as compared with last year. Our information is that there are less. British imports of turkeys this year will be down, and down considerably. Deputy O. Flanagan has again stated that, because of the influx of foreign turkeys, our price is depressed. It is no such thing. There is an estimated drop of 1,300 tons going into the British market. There has been a phenomenal increase in turkey production in Britain itself.

Mr. Rooney

At 5/- per lb.

Mr. Walsh

That increase is estimated at 20 per cent.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Is the British produced turkey better than the Irish produced turkey?

Mr. Walsh

The British are prepared to pay a higher price for British produced turkeys. The Norfolk turkey gets the highest price on the British market. We cannot force them to give us a higher price.

Mr. Rooney

What if our turkeys are better?

Mr. Walsh

I have no function in fixing the price of turkeys on a free market. I could not do it. There is no fund to enable me to do it. There is no way in which I could guarantee a price unless the taxpayer of this country will guarantee it by subsidising it.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Deputy Dillon did it.

Mr. Walsh

He took 4d. per lb. from the producers themselves and he built up a fund.

Mr. O. Flanagan

It was better to take 4d. than to take 1/6.

Mr. Walsh

If Deputy Dillon hadgiven them the true price that obtained for their turkeys in 1950 they would have got 4/4 per lb. instead of, in actual fact, 4/- per lb. He retained the extra 4d. per lb. for the building up of the fund.

Mr. O. Flanagan

He left £250,000 against loss.

Mr. Walsh

That fund is now exhausted. The turkey producers of this country made the contribution to that fund—nobody else. I gave them back every halfpenny that was taken from them in 1950 and 1951. They got back every halfpenny last year.

Mr. O. Flanagan

You were not in office in 1950.

Mr. Walsh

I was in office in 1951. I fixed a price of 4/- per lb. In 1952, every halfpenny that remained in the fund went back to the producers—and it went to nobody else but to the turkey producers of this country.

Mr. Rooney

The Minister is shirking his responsibility.

Mr. Walsh

There is no shedding of responsibility by me in this case. The British have freed the poultry market. Even our turkeys were sold by agents last year and, as I have already said, there was a reduction in price last year. The Deputy has been quoting prices that we have supplied. I would point out that the export market for turkeys has not started yet. It is only in the next week that the export of turkeys will take place. We are taking the precaution of giving the turkey producers of this country every possible information. That is the most we can do for them. We give them that information in regard to the trend of prices on the British market. We broadcast the information on the radio and we advertise it in the papers and we let the turkey producers know the position. We cannot force the British to pay more for our turkeys than they are prepared to pay. We just cannot do it. The position is the very same with regard to any other exports which we have. We are dependent on the price paid by the consumer. If Deputy O. Flanagan has any brains or intelligence he must surely realise that. Iknow that Deputy O. Flanagan would like to make great propaganda out of this matter. I know that he would like to get all this printed in the papers and to let the turkey producers know what he is doing for them. He is just talking with his tongue in his cheek, and that is what he has been doing for years past.

Mr. Fanning

Deputy O. Flanagan is bluffing.

Mr. Walsh

I gave the facts of the case to Deputy O. Flanagan at Question Time to-day. Nobody can get away from the facts. Deputy O. Flanagan wants to make propaganda out of this matter to his own benefit. The reason why he raised this matter on the Adjournment to-night, despite my answer at Question Time to-day, was because he wants to get publicity in this matter. Deputy M.P. Murphy, from West Cork, joins in. He also wants a little more publicity.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

The Minister knows that he has failed utterly in his job. He is ruining the poultry industry.

Mr. Walsh

The Deputy from WestCork knows the true position also but he feels that a little bit of publicity and propaganda in this matter would do him a lot of good, too, if he can mislead the people. As far as the Department of Agriculture is concerned——

Mr. O. Flanagan

That is not true. The Minister should be a bit fair.

Mr. Walsh

Deputy Flanagan need not shake his head. We know him and his antics well. The Department of Agriculture is, and has been, doing everything it possibly can for the producers of every type of agricultural produce in this country.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

What about the disparity in price?

Mr. O. Flanagan

The Minister is ruining the poultry industry.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

The Minister had better be careful or we shall not have to discuss this issue next year because the industry will be gone.

The Dáil adjourned at 11.8 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 24th November, 1953.