Deputy S. Collins has given notice to raise onthe motion for the Adjournment the subject-matter of Question No. 71.
Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—Tulyar Nominations.
When I gave notice to-day that I would raise this matter on the Adjournment, I did so because I think the practice has grown up too readily in this House of Ministers refusing to disclose information which I think should be available to this House. When I raised the issue of the nominations to Tulyar, and the manner in which they were allotted, I did so as a person who had in no way impeded the subvention-in-aid from this House to the National Stud for development. Since then, this whole transaction has been the subject of very considerable rumour. I am now forced into the situation of inquiring from the Minister—I am doing it in a deliberate way—as to what use is being made of this extremely valuable sire horse, and in what manner the nominations to him are being distributed.
There are persistent and insistent rumours abroad that we were thoroughly codded and hoodwinked in the price that was paid for this horse, rumours which, apparently, are now finding their foundation in some extraordinary changes which have recently taken place in the management of certain studs in this country.
It is for the purpose of allaying public suspicion that I come into the House to ask the Minister to indicate to the House, and through it the country, how this particular semi-State body is functioning. There can be only one inference to be drawn from the Minister's present attitude, and that is that there is something to hide. I would hate to think that that was the situation. I think it is not only callous, but that it is treating this House with contempt, when a Minister will disown responsibility on the basis that he tried to disown it to-day, especially in view of the fact that this House was asked for an unprecedented Vote-in-Aid for the development of this stud. Though the Minister may say to me, and say correctly, that it was not a vote in a direct way for the purchase of this horse, we know that the capitaldevelopment of the stud, immediately after this grant of money was made, was the completion of the purchase of this horse called Tulyar.
The only matter that may be discussed by the Deputy is how the nominations to Tulyar were allotted.
With due respect, on the question of nominations to Tulyar, I think that the background of his acquisition by the National Stud is relevant to the general situation.
No. That matter was discussed, voted on, and a decision taken on it by the House. The matter may not be reopened now. The only matter that may now be discussed is how the nominations were allotted.
Having acquired this valuable animal, it then became the duty of the National Stud to use this horse to the greatest possible advantage of Irish racehorse breeding. The question that I have directed to the Minister only asks him to indicate in what manner the nominations were made, whether by ballot or otherwise, and how particular allocations of the services of this stallion were allotted.
There is a fairly substantial rumour amongst the breeding trade of this country that there has been considerable preferential treatment given, not only to very wealthy breeders at home, but to very wealthy breeders abroad in the allotment of these nominations.
That may not be so, and I hope it is not so; but I think it is the bounden duty of any Minister holding the portfolio which the Minister for Agriculture does, having come to this House for a tremendous subvention-in-aid for the development of this stud, to tell us how that money which was used to complete the purchase of this sire horse is being used by way of nominations.
It is of interest to the people generally throughout the country to know on what basis one can get a nomination for what may be one of the greatest sires of all time, as we all hope he will be. We want to know what chance has the little man with a very good-classmare of getting inside the present cartel. We want to know what hope these people can have of getting a percentage of the nominations that are available to this animal. The general objects of the National Stud suggest that the services of this animal should be directed to the general improvement of the horse-breeding industry of the country, and I would emphasise, of the farmer-breeder who has a good-class mare.
Deputy Cogan told us that the service of this horse would be made available for the mares of poor farmers in County Wicklow.
Order! Deputy Collins is in possession.
He must have changed his opinion on that since his advent to the Fianna Fáil Party.
In the light of what the object and aim of the National Stud purports to be, and of the fact that this House gave an unprecedented sum of money for the development of this stud, and the fact that the money was used, in the main, for the purchase of this horse, I submit it is only reasonable that this House should thereupon demand that we get some reasonable information from the Minister as to what is the nature of the use of this horse generally in relation to our horse-breeding industry.
It has been suggested to me that there is a tremendous closed ring in connection with the type of mare that is going to be nominated to this animal, that it is being limited, not to the modest man with a good animal, but apparently to the very wealthy type of breeder who may have a selection of animals. The Minister knows as well as I do that any mare nominated to this stallion during the next couple of years, before his stock are tried, is being given a tremendous earning potential, and that until such time as the stock are tried and proven, there will be tremendous speculative buying of all the progeny of this sire. I think it will be odious, having something ofa distinct smell, if nominations to this animal are going to be kept within a cartel for that period.
The Minister knows full well that, if this sire does not turn out too well, then nominations might be infinitely easier in years to come. It is terribly unfair in a project which is of general national concern that the Minister should withhold from us the system and the method under which nominations to this animal will be granted. I do not think it is fair of the Minister to wash his hands of responsibility on the basis that he tried to do it to-day. Whether the Minister likes it or not the people of Ireland generally regard this wonder horse as the property of the Irish people for the general betterment of Irish breeding and not for the enhancement of the studs of some of the wealthiest people in the world, and not indeed for the closed ring of a wealthy limited set within the country itself.
I want to know from the Minister whether any effort is going to be made to use this sire to the benefit of the modest man, the moderate-sized farmer who may have a first-class mare. What opportunity is he going to get to compete for these nominations? What percentage of the nominations to this horse are going to be reserved for that type? The rumour at present current in this country is that type of breeder has not got a chance of a nomination. If that is so I would like the Minister to tell us so. If not, I would like the Minister to tell us here and now how it is done so that he can dispose of these rumours and stop rising disquietude in relation to this horse throughout the State.
We know perfectly well that certain changes are being effected within the National Stud. We know that there is proposed immediately a change of management but I want to know from the Minister whether he has adhered to the undertakings he gave us in the course of the debate—protracted as it was—on the acquisition of this animal that he would be made available within the framework of the general objects of this stud to the type of small farmer-breeder who has a valuable type of mare suitable for that nomination.
I do not think I will delay the House very long replying to this question because, as I pointed out to-day, the Minister for Agriculture has no function in the administration of the National Stud. The National Stud is a company set up for the purpose of improving the standard of bloodstock here. One of the ways in which the bloodstock industry could be improved was the introduction of good stallions. There are a number of stallions, as you know, in the National Stud, Preciptic, Black Rock and Tulyar and the others. There has been no mention of them. The only horse we seem to be concentrating on is Tulyar.
And I wonder why?
Mr. Walsh
I do not know why.
Was there not a quarter of a million pounds paid for him?
Mr. Walsh
That is all right. A quarter of a million pounds was paid for him but £105,000 was got for another horse. Was there any talk about the horse that got £105,000?
Only the subject matter of the question is under discussion.
Mr. Walsh
The question put down to me to-day was:—
"To ask the Minister for Agriculture if he will indicate how nominations to Tulyar were allotted."
I said that that was a matter for the Board of Directors of the Irish National Stud Company which it is. Actually the Minister has no function whatsoever. It is a peculiar thing to tell Deputy Collins and the House that I do not even appoint the directors. The Minister for Finance appoints them after consultation with the Minister for Agriculture so that I have no right of direction so far as the National Stud is concerned.
Could you not inquire?
Mr. Walsh
I have no right to inquire for that purpose. The onlypurpose I have as far as the National Stud is concerned is to receive the report and balance sheet and place them on the Table of this House. That is my function. In the matter of the day to day affairs of the company these are controlled and directed by the directors appointed for the purpose.
As far as nominations to Tulyar are concerned I understand that the same system has been adopted in connection with Tulyar as was adopted in the case of Royal Charger. That was 25 per cent. of the nominations went to selected mares. That is quite understandable, particularly where you have a horse such as Tulyar that you must get the best possible mares especially in the first, second, third and fourth years in order to build up his reputation and enhance his prospects for the future. If it is possible to get a classic winner or a couple of classic winners, that is going to build his reputation.
In the case of the balance, the 75 per cent., these are balloted for. They go into a hat and in the case of Royal Charger there were 40 nominations per year so that you had ten of them selected and 30 went to the general public. There has been no restriction on the number of applicants. Anybody who is prepared or was prepared in the case of Royal Charger to pay £400 had the right of putting in an application for his services. The same thing applies so far as Tulyar is concerned.
How can you say that the same thing applies in Tulyar's case when 10 per cent. is reserved by contract for the Aga Khan?
Mr. Walsh
There is not a word of truth in that. I understand at the time that this question of the further extension of the company was being discussed that the Aga Khan made it a condition in the sale of Tulyar that he was to get four nominations, for which he was going to pay. Now, again, I could argue that there was no person better entitled to them from the point of view of having the best mares going to Tulyar. The position is that the Aga Khan is the owner of the best mares in the racing world and it would be good policy to give nominations to him for that one reason alone.
Are these four nominations included in the 25 per cent.?
Mr. Walsh
The four mares are included in the 25 per cent. and the other 75 are balloted for, and then there is no restriction on any person applying for nominations. The only restriction is: is he prepared to pay £600? That is the fee which was fixed by the Directors of the National Stud.
I think that answers the question raised by Deputy Collins to-day.
Why did you not tell me that to-day?
Mr. Walsh
I understand that is the system that has been adopted. I have not been told. The Deputy referred also to a change of management. I have no official knowledge of that.
Was there not an advertisement in the public Press for a manager for the National Stud last week?
Mr. Walsh
I have seen the advertisement.
Yes, the manager has gone to manage the Aga Khan's stud.
Mr. Walsh
The Deputy apparently knows everything about it. It is just like the allegation that was made here to-day by Deputy Sweetman that I gave a direction to buy Tulyar. That is untrue. I gave no such direction that the Directors of the National Stud should purchase Tulyar or any other horse. The only direction I gave at the time was that if they were buying a sire I was prepared to go to the Government and ask them to come to this House to give the National Stud increased capital. I did that and there my function ended. I have no function whatsoever in relation to the day-to-day affairs of the National Stud. They are under no obligation to tell me what their day-to-day affairs are and I am not responsible for anything that may be done down there. I cannot disclaim any responsibility because I have no responsibility.
Is it the position then that the Minister does not knowhow the nominations to Tulyar are allocated?
Mr. Walsh
I know what the system has been but I have not been asked for my advice as to what the system should have been and I have no right to give advice. The people who have been appointed to run the stud are appointed for that specific purpose. I take it it was obvious at the time the stud was established that it would be improper to have it under the direction of a Minister. I do not think anybody in this House would stand for that. I certainly would not stand for it and I would not undertake the task of carrying it out. This was taken away from control by this House and I hold it was perfectly right to do that. People who know their business, who understand racing and bloodstock breeding were put in charge. I cannot understand why Deputy Collins should address this question to me. If he, or any other Deputy, wants information about the stud why not apply to the management of the stud and get the information.
One would get it, too!
Mr. Walsh
They are the people responsible for the running of it.
And they would give the information!
Mr. Walsh
Has the Deputy asked for the information?
The Minister is the man who asked us for £250,000.
Mr. Walsh
I asked for £250,000 in order to increase the capital of the company and not for the purpose of buying a particular stallion.
The Minister told us a moment ago that he told the National Stud that he was prepared to go to the Government and ask for money in order to increase the capital because they wanted to buy a stallion.
Mr. Walsh
It was not for the purpose of buying a stallion. It was for the purpose of buying bloodstock, including a stallion, of extending the buildings and renovating the existing buildings. If the Deputy goes backand looks up my statement he will find there were other things included.
It was just a coincidence then?
Mr. Walsh
There was no coincidence. It was part and parcel of a scheme put forward for the purchase of stallions and mares, the erection of additional stabling and the renovation of existing stabling. All these things were included.
Tulyar has been bought but no renovation has been done.
Mr. Walsh
That was the case I made. It is bad politics to try to place the blame on me or try to attribute to me blame for something for which I am not responsible.
I am not imputing any blame. I am asking a simple question. I fought for the money to be provided and I made a case for it.
Mr. Walsh
The Deputy had his criticism. I have replied to the Deputy, and I gave him the answer according to the information I have. I have no function in this.
That is very unsatisfactory from the point of view of this House.
Mr. Walsh
What I have given to the Deputy is what I understand to be the principle adopted in relation tothe allocation of nominations for the coming year.
If I say to the Minister we have reason to believe that information is not accurate, will he inquire further?
He has no method of doing that. He cannot inquire.
Mr. Walsh
The Deputy does not believe this is the policy. I do not know but that the Deputy may be right. I do not know what the policy is. I have no function in the operations of the National Stud.
The Minister has no right to do anything except give the money.
Mr. Walsh
I have no right to ask them what their policy is. They are a limited company set up for a specific purpose and I have no function of direction, or otherwise.
I do not ask the Minister to direct them. I am asking him to ask them a question.
Mr. Walsh
If the Minister has no right to direct I take it he has no right to inquire or receive information. The only function he has is to get the report and balance sheet of the company and place those on the Table of this House. That is the only right he has.
The Dáil adjourned at 11.25 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 25th November, 1953.