Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Nov 1953

Vol. 143 No. 5

Committee on Finance - Adjournment Debate—Dismissal of Bord na Móna Employees.

Mr. Norton

I gave notice that I would raise on the Adjournment the subject-matter of Question No. 7 on yesterday's Order Paper. The question was concerned with the large-scale disemployment of workers by Bord na Móna. At the outset and so that my position will be neither misunderstood nor misrepresented, I want to put it on record that I have been one of the Deputies in this House who have consistently supported our turf development programme and an unrepentant believer, as I have said on many occasions, in the national advantages which flow from the fullest utilisation of our peat resources.

That does not mean, of course, that one is committed to approval of the methods adopted by Bord na Móna. I raise this matter this evening because I think it is nothing short of a public scandal that a State body like Bord na Móna should so organise its affairs that in the mouth of Christmas hundreds of workers are paid off, hundreds of workers sent from employment to the labour exchange and that is where they will spend their Christmas.

Deputy Sweetman and I, at the request of a large number of workers who had been paid off and others who were expecting to be paid off, had an interview recently with Bord na Móna. We were told then, when we inquired what the staff position was last year and what the position was this year, that at the end of October, 1952—and these figures were written down from statements made at the time by Bord na Móna directors—the board employed 283 local workers in the Timahoe bog area in North Kildare; at the end of October, 1953, they said they were employing 357 local workers, that in November, 1953, the number fell to 257, and that they anticipated that in December the number would fall to 140.

As a result of inquiries addressed by us to the directors we were told that in 1952 they had kept on 250 local workers in that particular area. This year they said they proposed to reduce the staff to 140, of which 85 would be employed on drainage work; of these 140 they estimated that 50 of those retained would be non-locals who had come to work in the area and as non-locals had entered into the tenancy of houses erected by Bord na Móna.

This position came as a complete surprise to many local workers employed by Bord na Móna in that area. A number of those men complained to Deputy Sweetman and myself that they had been paid off at a week's notice, as if Bord na Móna could not foresee the future beyond the week. Some of the men complained that in fact they had only received four days' notice. If they had got much longer notice, a month or two months, it would have been easy for many of these people to have gone to Britain and to have obtained there three months' regular work before Christmas. They would then have been able to come back with money for their families at Christmas; or, as many of them said: "If we knew that we were going to be paid off so close to Christmas we could have gone to Britain and worked there until February of next year and come back and taken fresh employment withBord na Móna when new staff was being recruited." They were not informed by Bord na Móna that their dismissal was so imminent, with the result that a few weeks before Christmas these unfortunate people have been fired out of their employment and, so far as they are concerned—and this affects workers who have been regularly employed with Bord na Móna for some years—they will spend Christmas on the labour exchange. This situation has been brought about by a State-organised body such as Bord na Móna.

This short period of notice, especially to workers who have been engaged regularly for years in Bord na Móna, is utterly indefensible. Married men approached us, men with wives and children to maintain, who have been employed for years with Bord na Móna in a regular capacity and who were paid off this year for the first time. They had no more notice of their pay-off than a week or four days, as the case might be.

I realise that in turf production a great deal of the work has been, and some of it inevitably will be, seasonal in character, but the more seasonal in character it is the greater the obligation on Bord na Móna so to organise its staffing arrangements that adequate notice will be given to workers of the intention to pay them off so that they may be able to adjust and rehabilitate themselves in other employment.

Bord na Móna apparently has been quite unconcerned with giving adequate notice to these people, and we could get no explanation from the directors as to why notice was so short and why no effort was made to meet the needs of the workers concerned by giving them adequate notice and, consequently, an opportunity of securing other employment. Not only is this the position in the Timahoe area where there is no other work at this time of the year, but the board told us quite calmly that they propose to dismiss another 120 workers in the Rathangan area.

Mr. Sweetman

One hundred and seventy.

Mr. Norton

I got the figure as 120. That is what the board told us andthey are going out, too. These are local workers, many of whom had regular employment with Bord na Móna. All this is happening four weeks before Christmas. I do not think it is asking Bord na Móna too much to ask them to organise staffing arrangements so that, if workers have to go off, the longest possible period of notice will be given to them. Bord na Móna should be expected, in the interests of those whom it employs, not to pay its workers off a few weeks before Christmas—when every State Department, and this House itself, recognises the necessity for special grants in order to keep people employed at Christmas or provide employment for them if they have not got it.

The workers interviewed asserted to us—and man of them have considerable experience of Bord na Móna activities—that there is a good deal of work to be done on the Timahoe group. They told us that a good deal of the bog had not been drained, that several parts of it have not been cut and that the trenches on which bagger machines will be used next year have not been sufficiently cut or deepened to enable the bagger machines to be used. If no other work can be found on these bogs it is up to Bord na Móna—and it is a moral obligation on them—to take these men back into employment to do that work, especially with the rapid approach of Christmas.

Even if all cannot be taken back, the Kildare County Council has submitted abundant drainage schemes which could be carried out in the area. Surely, from the national point of view, it is much more desirable that these workers now should be turned in to do the drainage work in the area, where they would get regular county council wages, instead of being sent to the labour exchange, there to receive as a maximum 50/- a week? Is it not better to put them to drainage work and give them that ordinary week's wages, than to give them a maximum of 50/- for the privilege of undertaking daily or weekly pilgrimages to the local employment exchange?

I put to the Minister, therefore, two things. One is to request Bord naMóna to reinstate as many of those workers as possible. Secondly, recognising the special character of the area and the inadequate notice of dismissal, together with the fact that there is no alternative employment, the Government should make a special grant available under the Local Authorities (Works) Act in order that these people will not have to spend this Christmas in all the bleakness and misery that is associated with drawing benefit at the labour exchange, at a time when domestic expenditure is higher than it is at any other time of the year.

Mr. Sweetman

When these questions were put yesterday by Deputy Norton and myself, they came following, as Deputy Norton said, an interview we had with the directors of Bord na Móna. I completely fail to reconcile the answers received yesterday, as regards the number of men employed, with the information given by the directors. I took them down at the time and I have them here. We were told that in September of this year the number of local men—as apart from those brought in from outside— who had been employed in the Timahoe group was 357; that 100 men had been let off consequent on the end of seasonal work; and that that number 357 was going to be brought down to 140. The Minister said yesterday that that was an error for 240.

It could not have been so. There was considerable discussion between the directors of Bord na Móna, Deputy Norton and myself as to the number that had been employed in December, 1952—that was 250. We put it to the directors that at least these 250 were entitled to think that they were going to be kept this year unless they got notice to the contrary. No special notice of any sort was given to them, other than the bare week's notice of dismissal. When we got into that discussion, as Deputy Norton mentioned, we found not merely that position in the Timahoe group but a similar position going to arise in Rathangan. There the number of men is going to be reduced from 290 to 120, a drop of 170. That is to say, in all—leaving out seasonal workers who had come in from other counties and of whom 437,we were told, had been let go by Bord na Móna—there are 217 at Timahoe and 170 at Rathangan, or a total of 387, local men, who are going to be without any employment at this time of the year.

Bord na Móna accepted the position that it was an undoubted hardship on these men at this time of the year suddenly to be thrown out of employment without any adequate or proper notice. The mere accepting that it is a hardship, however, is not enough. The Minister, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, is responsible for the direction of policy in regard to Bord na Móna. He should make certain that some proper steps are taken now to ensure that the lack of notice that was given to these men would be made up by insisting that employment would be provided at least to carry them over Christmas. We all know that this is the worst time of the year. At this time it is harder to obtain employment. When the spring comes, a little stirring here and there may make it possible to obtain work elsewhere; but the end of November and the beginning of December—when, we were told, the other 110 will be let go—is the worst time for them. There would be little hope, if any, that even a reasonable proportion of them would find alternative employment at such short notice.

The Minister is not merely Minister: he is the second in command of this Government and as such he has a wider sphere of responsibility. The Government, if they wish, could quite easily ensure that there would be sufficient work for these men in the four or five weeks that remain before Christmas. The Kildare County Council, through its technical officials and engineers has submitted to the Department of Local Government—in addition to the schemes for which grants have been allocated—schemes in the northern engineer's area which total £27,000. They have also submitted schemes in the central engineer's area, which borders on Timahoe, of about £6,500. Under those schemes there could be sufficient work found, if the Minister would step in as Tánaisteand insist that funds were made available to ensure that these men were kept in employment.

I submit, first of all, that if there was to be this reduction, it was scandalous that proper notice was not given that that number of men were going to be laid off, until the last week. The Minister tried to suggest the other day that someone said here that pleasure was taken in laying off men. Of course, no one suggested that. However, to give men, who were entitled to think there would be the same number of men kept in permanent employment as last year, notice five weeks before Christmas is not a proper way to treat those people. It is treating them more like sods of turf. There could be a much better organisation of the work so as to ensure that if work would not be available, earlier notice would have been given. I was speaking to a man who had been there for five or six years, permanently employed the whole year round by Bord na Móna. If there was no work for them they could have been told and would not have had this suddenly thrust upon them. They would have had an opportunity in the fall of the year, when they might have been able to make other arrangements or at least would know where they stood.

There was a worse suggestion put to me and it was not denied in any way by the directors of Bord na Móna—that if anyone went into the Bord na Móna houses he would be automatically kept on. That is utilising the "tied house" system at its worst.

The case always up to this in respect of these houses has been that they were needed for key men. The position now is that men living locally in their own houses feel that if they leave their own house and take a Bord na Móna house they will be able to keep their employment. They fear that if they live in their own houses and keep their independence they may not be able to keep their employment. That is not the proper way of dealing with this matter and certainly it is not a way that will redound to the permanent credit of Bord na Móna and make for happier relations in the board's employment in the future.

I would ask the Minister, in his capacity as Minister for Industry and Commerce, to see what can be done and, as Tánaiste, I would ask him to ensure that, if Bord na Móna cannot do anything to remedy the situation, the Department of Local Government will be approached in regard to schemes which are already on their files.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

Bord na Móna was set up by statute to undertake a particular commercial enterprise and is not responsible to me for its day-to-day operations nor have I any information concerning these operations except when they supply me with information in response to a direct request for it.

It seems to me that the board is doing the job entrusted to it exactly as was contemplated when the board was set up. At no time when I was bringing through the House the various Acts under which the board operates was the prospect held out that employment with Bord na Móna would be continuous all the year round. On the contrary, the seasonal nature of turf production was stressed and it was emphasised that a large proportion of those employed by the board could only be so employed for six or seven months of the year and not for 12 months.

I think it is well to stress that the scale of the board's operations on its permanent bogs is extending year after year and the minimum number which will be employed by Bord na Móna during the slack season in this year will exceed the maximum number which they employed at the peak of the season in 1950, 1949 or 1948— and next year the number that they will employ will be larger still.

The maximum number which Bord na Móna employed in this year was more than double the maximum number they employed in 1950 or in any of the earlier years. The minimum number which they will employ this year at the lowest point during the winter season will be higher than in any previous year of the board's existence. That is not true in relation to all the bogs. It is not true in relation to the Kildarebogs. There are three stages in the development of a bog. The first stage is entirely development work that is not subject to seasonal fluctuation, and the number of men employed is more or less uniform all the year round. At the second stage, production activities begin and are conducted side by side with development activities. At that stage, there is some seasonal fluctuation in employment, but many of the men employed on seasonal production work can be switched to capital works during the winter. At the third stage, capital development works are finished and only production activities are carried out. That stage has been reached in respect of all the bogs included in Bord na Móna's first development programme. In some of these bogs it is true that no seasonal problem has yet arisen because the workers engaged upon seasonal production work are transferred to other adjacent bogs in the second production programme. The Kildare bogs were the first to be developed and there is no alternative employment upon bogs under development in that area.

So far as Timahoe is concerned, the maximum number of workers employed there this year was the highest ever. It was more than double what it was a couple of years ago. The maximum number employed on the Timahoe bogs this year was 1,375 and that is to be compared with 606 in 1950 and 368 in 1948. While the maximum number employed there this year was very much higher than in previous years, the number of men required for maintenance activities during the winter season has fallen slightly. The number of men who will be employed on the Timahoe bogs during the winter season is estimated to be 340. I want to explain that figure because there is really no conflict in the information given to me by the board and the information given to the Deputies. That figure of 340 represents the number which will be employed. Some of them will be hostel workers. The information which the Deputy sought related to locally resident manual workers. The figure of 240 locally resident workers which I gave yesterday includes electricians, supervisory,clerical workers and other categories. The information given to the Deputies relates to local manual workers only. The figures 140, 240 and 340 are not in conflict and represent the number in each category who will be employed. Of the 340 who will be employed, 240 will, as I suggested, be locally resident—that is, that number of employees of all categories will be retained in service by the board.

I do not know the position regarding the board's policy in relation to workers occupying houses which they built. The idea of building these houses for workers brought in to work permanently on the bogs did not occur this year or last year: it was initiated, in fact, under legislation which my predecessor introduced. I understand that the board entered into something the equivalent of a contract with these workers that they would secure permanent employment. May I say that this whole problem of differentiation between the board's permanent and temporary staffs will be eased if and when—as I hope some time will happen—a pension scheme for the permanent staff is introduced?

Deputy Norton suggested that there is some work which could be done. Yesterday Deputy Harris suggested to me that there were certain drainage operations at Timahoe North bog which were necessary and which, if carried out, would improve production next year. I checked with the board upon that information. They said that it is true but that, in fact, 80 of the 140 local manual workers to be retained will be occupied upon that precise work. I have been assured by the board that it is their policy to retain in employment the maximum number of workers for whom they have work.

I do not think it would be feasible to ask the board to retain workers for whom they have no work. The Deputies who have spoken are, of course, as local representatives, interested in County Kildare residents. I have to face the fact that of the 6,000 workers employed by the board at the peak of the season, only 3,000 will be employed during the slack season. Itwould be impracticable to establish some preferential treatment for workers resident in one county and not to apply it to workers from where-ever they may have come who were employed on seasonal operations by the board.

Mr. Sweetman

But the other seasonal workers are not laid off just at Christmas.

Mr. Lemass

It is desirable that the board should give the maximum notice. That is not always possible. The termination of the seasonal operations depends on weather conditions. Some years these operations will end earlier than in other years. This year they continued far longer than in previous years. I urged upon the board that they should consider that point of view. It is obvious that, in relation to these first development programme bogs, this problem of seasonal fluctuations in employment will persist for a time and that we shall have to consider it in a general way. It will diminish with the course of time. The board tell me that improved mechanisation methods will tend to contract the seasonal element in their employment.

When this matter came to my notice some ten or 12 days ago I wrote to the Minister for Local Government and to the Parliamentary Secretary in charge of the Board of Works drawing their attention to it and asking them to consider if there was any action which could be taken under the auspices of their Departments which would ease the position in these areas. I am sure that both of them are giving the matter careful consideration although it will be appreciated that works of any magnitude cannot be instituted at very short notice. I had to apologise to both the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary when writing for the shortness of the notice I was giving. I explained that it was only on that day that I had learned of the situation arising in relation to the board's employment and that I could not have given them any longer notice.

If the problem of seasonal fluctuation in Bord na Móna's employment isto be handled, it must be otherwise than by asking Bord na Móna to retain men for whom they have no work. No policy of that kind could be confined to a limited number of workers at Timahoe or Rathangan. It would have to be operated in relation to the thousands of workers who are employed by Bord na Móna on a seasonal basis. The solution of the problem, if one can be found, must be sought outside the activities of Bord na Móna. I hope that, with the development of new production techniques, this problem of seasonal unemployment amongst the board's staffs will diminish in importance. Until these new techniques are in full operation, I am afraid that there is nothing which Bord na Móna can do about it.

Mr. Norton

Would the Minister ask the Department of Local Government to get in touch with the Kildare County Council, which has a drainage scheme which could be started to-morrow in these areas, so as to get these people into employment for Christmas?

Mr. Lemass

I have already—ten or 12 days ago—written to the Minister for Local Government and to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Works informing them of the exact dimensions of this problem and asking them to consider what their Departments can do about it.

Mr. Sweetman

Yesterday the Minister for Local Government answered me in the following terms: "Should a situation such as is envisaged arise ...." That obviously implies that he had no information of it at all.

Mr. Lemass

As the Deputy will know from a reply given yesterday, the number of men disemployed up to the end of October was quite small. It was a situation likely to arise——

Mr. Sweetman

The framing of the reply of the Minister for Local Government did not imply that.

The Dáil adjourned at 11.33 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Thursday, 26th November, 1953.