Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 11 Dec 1953

Vol. 143 No. 12

Private Members' Business. - River Nore Drainage—Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that steps should be taken with a view to a comprehensive survey of the River Nore and arrangements for its drainage being made in view of the fact that this river is one of the most neglected in the country and should rank as one of the major drainage schemes to be undertaken immediately.—(Oliver J. Flanagan, Thomas F. O'Higgins (Junior), Patrick J. Crotty, Joseph Hughes.)

Mr. Crotty

I second the motion. The River Nore flows through the most fertile part of Kilkenny. Every few years the flooding increases. Thirty to 40 years ago, the flooding was nothing as compared with the flooding now. Water lies on the land for months and has made the most fertile land derelict. Instead of growing the finest grass, it is growing rushes and weeds. It is time that the Government and the House would take notice of this matter. It is time we had a statement from the Government as to when they intend to carry out the survey. Places where 30 to 40 cattle used to graze will not graze one beast now. Timber and brushwood growing on the banks of the river are blocking the river and making the flooding more severe. Kilkenny City is very badly affected by the flooding of the Nore.

In 1947 Kilkenny had the sympathy of the whole country, from the President to the humblest person in the land, because of flooding. I was Mayor at that time and received most of the messages of sympathy and assurances of help. People did give us very practical sympathy. The President sent a very substantial amount to relieve distress. When the crisis is passed people are inclined to forget. If we have not a repetition of the flooding year after year, apparently, it is forgotten.

In 1947, the late Eamon Coogan, who represented Kilkenny in the Dáil, put the case very forcibly to the Minister and the Government. TheParliamentary Secretary at that time, Mr. O'Grady, in reply to a question by the late Deputy Coogan, on 20th March, 1947, said:—

"I am aware that Kilkenny and other towns in the Nore Valley were subjected to heavy flooding last week as a result of the recent abnormal weather. The only effective remedy for the periodic flooding occasioned by the River Nore lies in the execution of a comprehensive drainage scheme for the entire catchment area. The formulation of such a scheme under the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945, will be duly considered. . . ."

Almost seven years have elapsed and we have not heard one word as to whether that has been considered or not. In reply to a supplementary question the then Parliamentary Secretary said:—

"I am not in a position to state exactly when a scheme can be prepared for the Nore area."

I do not blame the Parliamentary Secretary at that time for not being in a position to state exactly when a comprehensive scheme would be introduced but we would expect that the Parliamentary Secretary of the present date, in reply to this motion, would be able to state exactly when such a scheme would be introduced. Six and a half years is quite a considerable time.

I was a member of a deputation from Kilkenny County Council to Deputy Donnellan, when he was Parliamentary Secretary, pressing him about this matter. Our representations are not reserved for the present Government. We pressed the inter-Party Government in regard to the drainage of the River Nore. I feel that we should be able to get something very positive to-day from the Parliamentary Secretary. I know that we can have abnormal floods no matter what drainage is done and that they will have slight effects, but the flooding of the Nore had terrible effects in Kilkenny. It closed down factories, knocked houses, took away walls, took away every protection at the time; and whatever the people of Kilkenny suffered at that time thepeople of Thomastown, County Kilkenny, suffered even more. I saw people being rescued from the roofs of houses that night in Kilkenny, and I believe that the floods reached much higher levels in the Thomastown area. Those people in Thomastown feel that they are being neglected by successive Governments in this matter and they have asked us, the local Deputies, to bring it up again.

I suppose it is only by bringing it to the notice of the Government and the Dáil that we can hope our river will be drained and that apart from the city useful land will be brought into production. After all we recognise that the agricultural industry is the principal industry in the country on which it has to depend for its exports and to carry on its normal life and standard of living. Here we have a case of thousands of acres of land being practically inundated most of the year with water. We have the land reclamation scheme and the local works Drainage Act. All these things are very good in their own way, but they do bring down water a bit faster and they may add to the flooding of the River Nore. If the River Nore was properly drained it would make these schemes doubly useful. There cannot be much improvement until the main river is drained.

I do not know if I have anything further to say on this but I do ask the Parliamentary Secretary to give us some positive answer to-day as to when we may expect it. The people at home, as I said, are pressing, and I feel rightly so, both from the point of view of the farmers firstly, whose land is the main consideration, and secondly of the City of Kilkenny, where they do not know the day or the hour, especially at this time of the year, when they may be washed out of their homes completely up to the first and second floors of their houses. We may thank God that there was no loss of life at that time but there was loss of everything else. We do thank the people from all over the country who came to our support and help. I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to give us some statement to-day as to when this scheme will be brought into operation.

Mr. O. Flanagan

When the Deputies representing Kilkenny, Carlow, Laoighis and Offaly, placed this motion on the Order Paper they did so in the hope that before the motion would have been reached either the County Council of Kilkenny or the County Council of Laoighis would have been given some indication from the Office of Public Works that at least the preliminary investigations and the preliminary surveys that are necessary to be undertaken before a comprehensive drainage scheme may be carried out were under way. Repeated requests, unanimous requests, have been made to the Government over a long number of years asking that the Nore drainage be carried out with the least possible delay. The local authorities of Kilkenny and Laoighis have every reason to view with alarm the failure of the present Government and, indeed, the neglect of the past Government to have arrangements put in hands for the carrying out of this scheme.

In most parts of the County Laoighis the landowners and farmers cannot avail of the land rehabilitation scheme because the Department of Agriculture engineers will on every occasion report that there is little use in the farmers opening up the main drains through their holdings when the River Nore is not in a position to take away the water. In many cases both in the County of Kilkenny and in Laoighis where the farmers do open up the ordinary drains clearing the surplus water from their holdings it means that when the Nore is in flood the waters come back up to the farmers' holdings. It must be borne in mind that particularly in the areas of Ballacolla, Durrow, Castletown and Kilbricken in Laoighis the lands are as highly valued as the most fertile land in County Meath, and it is regrettable and unfortunate that whilst they must pay an ever-increasing rate in many instances the farmers can only use their lands from three to four months of the year because in the event of serious flooding in this area the lands are rendered useless for grazing for some time after the floods have cleared away, and in many instanceslive-stock have suffered from fluke and other diseases which result from water-logged land.

I think that of all the drainage schemes that are in the Twenty-Six Counties, after the River Brosna there is no scheme of the same importance to the local farmers as the drainage scheme for the River Nore. Even though the local farmers may be of very great concern in this scheme it must be borne in mind that good tillage land is completely under flood and that main and county roads are rendered impassable and completely flooded every time the high waters of the Nore rise. It must be borne in mind that there are very large bridges on the Nore which are out of date. The eyes of the bridges are not sufficiently big to take away the waters of the Nore, and in some instances, I believe, not far from Castletown, though one may consider it astonishing to know, the water, instead of flowing under the bridge, is going over it.

We have known cases in the County Laoighis where the Nore has taken its own course, and in the district of Kilbricken several acres of good land have been rendered useless because of the lack of a comprehensive drainage scheme on the river. Those people are expected to respond to the local authority's call for increased payment of rates and at the same time to respond to the Government's call for an increased tillage drive or for an increase in the live-stock put on their holdings; but the position, bad and all as it is for the farmers, is entirely desperate for the people who are living in towns on the banks of the River Nore.

It must be borne in mind that the River Nore flows through a city, the City of Kilkenny which, as Deputy Crotty pointed out, suffered in 1947 untold hardship from flooding, the memory of which will survive down through the years. The year 1947 will never be forgotten in the City of Kilkenny. It was a year in which there was misery, distress and hardship inthe city but despite the fact that we had expressions of sympathy from every Minister and from the head of the Government, no action was taken to implement these expressions of sympathy or to give them practical form in later years. I should like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary what has become of the Arterial Drainage Act. We know that the Brosna scheme has been carried out and that surveys are being carried out in the case of a few other schemes but, so far as the rest of the country is concerned, the Arterial Drainage Act rests on the shelves of the Office of Public Works covered with dust and surrounded by cobwebs.

Is it not about time that the Parliamentary Secretary took the Act down from the shelves, shovelled away the cobwebs and implemented the legislation which was passed through this House with every speed because it was represented to the House at the time that the Government were anxious to have every main river in the Twenty-Six Counties drained? They cannot say they have not the legislation or that they have not the money to carry out the work, because I believe that if the House were asked to provide money to carry out the drainage of the Nore or of any other river in Ireland, Deputies would be very slow to tie the hands of the Parliamentary Secretary by refusing to provide the money.

I have often wondered was it mere bluff on the part of the Government to pass the Arterial Drainage Act so that the Government could put all these schemes on the long finger, seeing that there has been such great slowness on the part of the Office of Public Works in implementing arterial drainage schemes generally. I now accuse the Government of failing in their duty to carry out important drainage schemes although they know that there is a considerable amount of unemployment in the country. They know that there is a severe unemployment problem in Kilkenny, Thomastown and in every town in the south of the County Laoighis. Yet the Government sit back in the knowledge that they have legislation to enable them to carry out these schemes. They remainin their slumber of laziness and refuse to carry out a scheme that would provide employment and increase the fertility of the soil in the catchment area from Laoighis down to the sea between Kilkenny and Waterford.

I fail to understand the silence of the Government in regard to the drainage of the Nore, and other similar schemes. I also fail to understand the lack of co-operation between the county councils and the Office of Public Works. When the county councils have furnished the Office of Public Works with detailed proposals and with sufficient evidence to enable the engineering staff in the Office of Public Works to carry out preliminary investigations, I am told that it takes from a year to two and a half years to survey the area before the drainage scheme can be actually undertaken. By the time the levels are taken and arrangements made for the acquisition of certain lands, the removal of certain bridges and the securing of necessary rights of way, it seems that a further considerable delay ensues before a scheme can be undertaken. In 1947 a guarantee was given to the then Mayor of Kilkenny and, if my memory serves me right, to the Lord Bishop of Ossory, that no time would be lost in giving the Nore special consideration. In 1948 we were told that it was still under consideration.

In 1949 and 1950 that was still the position; 1951 and 1952 passed, and the matter was still under consideration. We are now in the last days of 1953 and the scheme is still in some stage of consideration in the Office of Public Works. I wonder if, for the next six, seven or eight years we shall be told at intervals that it is "under active consideration." After three or four more years we shall probably be told in replies given to questions in this House that a survey is in process of preparation. At the rate at which the Office of Public Works appears to be working now, it would appear that another ten or 12 years must pass before the dredgers and excavators will be working on the River Nore.

Deputy Hughes, Deputy O'Higgins, Deputy Crotty and myself tabled this motion for the purpose of focussingpublic attention on the urgency of this matter and on the necessity of carrying out this drainage scheme without further delay. On behalf of the people who live in the areas adjacent to the Nore, I want to protest strongly against the delay which has already occurred. One would imagine that in a constituency like Kilkenny, which is honoured by having two Ministers amongst its parliamentary representatives, the Minister for Agriculture, particularly, would impress upon the Government the necessity of carrying out this drainage scheme. There is another distinguished representative from Kilkenny in the person of the Minister for Lands. One would imagine that he, at least, would raise his voice in protest against these dilatory tactics and the failure of the Office of Public Works to carry out a scheme of drainage for the Nore.

We have evidence of the sad spectacle that is frequently presented in that area where, as Deputy Crotty has stated, some of his constituents have to be helped off the roofs of their houses when severe flooding occurs. I have often asked myself what is the reason for the silence in regard to these matters in Government circles. Why is it that both the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Lands who represent the people of that area, come into this House and never speak a word in favour of carrying out a drainage scheme on the Nore? I think it should not be left to Deputy Hughes, to Deputy Crotty, to Deputy O'Higgins and myself to put a motion of this kind on the Order Paper. The two respected Ministers who have the honour of representing Kilkenny should have been the first to convey to the Government their disgust and dissatisfaction with regard to the lack of drainage in Kilkenny and to see that a comprehensive drainage scheme was carried out on the River Nore.

I want to say for the records of this House that if the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Lands wanted this scheme carried out, they could have it carried out in a short time. They have an intimate knowledge of the area, of the conditions of the people in Kilkenny City, and of theconditions which prevail in the town of Thomastown in the winter time owing to the overflowing of the River Nore. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he can give this House any hope of a drainage scheme being carried out on the River Nore within the next 12 or 18 months. I hope that as a result of this motion the attention of the chief engineer in the Office of Public Works will be directed to this matter and that in the New Year we will have the engineers in the Kilkenny district carrying out a survey for the commencement of the drainage of the river.

I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary realises the importance of and the necessity for drainage, because drainage work will provide useful employment. The Parliamentary Secretary may tell the House that there are not funds at his disposal for the carrying out of this drainage scheme, but I wonder what arrangements he will make, in co-operation with his fellow Ministers, for having the scheme carried out under the National Development Fund. If the Office of Public Works cannot do it, I am sure that at least £1,000,000 can be provided from the National Development Fund for the purpose of giving employment and carrying out a scheme which would be of benefit to the locality.

If the Arterial Drainage Act is slow, cumbersome and useless in its working, then he can come to this House and have that Act amended. If his hands are tied or if the hands of his engineering staff are tied, I am sure this House would release them in a very short time and give them more authority and any money that would be required. I am sure this House would not object in any way to giving them more power under the Arterial Drainage Act and providing the money for the carrying out of such schemes.

I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will accept this motion in principle. The motion asks that steps should be taken with a view to a comprehensive survey of the River Nore and arrangements made for its drainage. I amsure the Parliamentary Secretary does not see anything wrong in accepting the motion. I know that, if he wishes, he can have the attention of his engineering staff directed to it, and he cannot say there is a scheme of greater importance than that for the River Nore. All the statistics and all the information is at his disposal in the Office of Public Works to show that the Nore is one of our most important rivers. It is a river which has caused havoc and disaster in the past and what happened in 1947 might occur again.

I want to express for the records of this House my keen disappointment at the absence from the House of the two Ministers who represent the constituency, the Minister for Lands and the Minister for Agriculture. One would expect that, in common courtesy and in recognition of the support of the people of Kilkenny given to them in the past, they would be in this House for the purpose of giving approval to this motion and impressing on the Parliamentary Secretary the need for the carrying out of this important drainage scheme. I am sorry that they are not in the House. I do not know whether they are aware that this important motion is under discussion, but I am sure they have received the Order Paper the same as other Deputies have and I think their absence is a great discourtesy and a failure on their part, as public representatives and Ministers of the Government, to see that a motion of this kind——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Ministers have no responsibility for this matter.

Mr. O. Flanagan

They are elected representatives for the area, and one would expect that, in recognition of the co-operation which they have received from a certain number of constituents, they would at least have been here for the purpose of giving a word of advice to the Parliamentary Secretary as to the carrying out of this important scheme. I hope that the scheme will be undertaken, that no time will be lost in having a survey carried out, and that we may be inthe position before this time 12 months of seeing, not alone that the work is in hands, but that the work is well on the way for the carrying out of this important drainage scheme.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. Beegan)

As has been pointed out, this motion has been on the Order Paper for some considerable time. It was moved here a few nights ago by Deputy O'Higgins, and in moving the motion the Deputy was very fair and reasonable. Deputy Crotty, in seconding the motion was also quite reasonable. I can quite well understand their feelings in a matter of this kind, but these feelings are just the same as many Deputies from the various other catchment areas would have in respect to the particular rivers they are interested in or in which their constituents are interested.

Deputy Flanagan has now come along, and I do not believe that he is as much interested in the drainage of the River Nore as he is in trying to discredit two Ministers, the Minister for Lands and the Minister for Agriculture. The other Deputies did not refer to these Ministers at all. As I said, they have put their case in a reasonable way and gave the grounds on which they were bringing it forward. Deputy Flanagan departed from that, and, consequently I take it, is not as sincere as he pretends to be as far as the drainage of the River Nore is concerned. He said that the River Nore was next in importance to the River Brosna. Of course, if we went on with the drainage of the River Nore after the Brosna, he would say that the Little Brosna was next in importance to the River Brosna and the River Nore.

Deputy O'Higgins and Deputy Crotty mentioned that there had been an agitation for a considerable number of years to have this work carried out. The question of the drainage of the River Nore is not new to the Commissioners of Public Works. The River Nore came to their notice earlier than eight or nine years ago. In fact, as far back as 1926 a petition was submitted to have a scheme of drainage carried out on the River Noreunder the 1925 Arterial Drainage Act. Various deputations met different Parliamentary Secretaries in the Office of Public Works and proposals were put forward for partial drainage and also for a comprehensive scheme from the outfall to the upper reaches.

At that time the Kilkenny County Council came into it and I think also the Laoighis County Council. A scheme was devised for doing a considerable portion of the river at a revised figure. Under the terms of the 1925 Act they were asked to pay the contribution provided for in the Act. They did not agree to that: they wanted a much higher contribution than under that Act was given to any other river in the country. After all, if the land is so fertile—and I believe that nearly all Kilkenny land is fertile and a goodly portion of Laoighis also—there was no reason why those county councils at that time should not have done what county councils did in areas where land is less fertile—and that was to put up the required contribution. It hung fire, anyhow, and, as has been stated, in my predecessor's term of office a deputation also called to the office and then there was clearly stated what I have to state here now: that as far as the River Nore is concerned, and many other rivers as well, there can be no piecemeal drainage carried out and that it has to be a comprehensive scheme.

As I said, the Commissioners of Public Works and the engineers are well acquainted with the River Nore and the conditions there. My information is that while there is periodic flooding, it is not nearly as serious as it is in many other areas and that, in fact, at the peak it is only narrow strips of land in certain areas that are flooded at all, that the damage caused by floods is not nearly as widespread as the damage caused in many other areas.

I could accept this motion as it stands. It says:—

"That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that steps should be taken with a view to a comprehensive survey of the River Nore and arrangements for its drainage being made in viewof the fact that this river is one of the most neglected in the country and should rank as one of the major drainage schemes to be undertaken immediately."

I could accept it if I wanted to quibble with words. After all, the preliminary steps have been taken already for every major river in every major catchment area in the country and also for every minor river in every minor catchment area. These steps were taken, of course, by the introduction and passing through this House of the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945.

After all, drainage is a very difficult question and there should be no need at all for me to review the position now or to make a statement, in view of the fact that as late as 22nd October, when the Vote for the Office of Public Works was before the House, I devoted on that occasion eight columns of the Official Report— Volume 142, No. 3, columns 456 to 464 —to explaining, I think in fair detail, the complexities of the problem, the difficulties that it presented, the length of time that had to be taken in respect of the various surveys that were carried out, the length of time taken in the designing and planning of the scheme and also the time that had to be taken regarding the exhibition. Then I referred to the length of time that, from experience, it took to carry out the drainage operations. I explained all that. I dealt with the progress carried out. Now expedition is being urged, of course.

It was mentioned by the different speakers to this motion that the question of money should not enter into it. The question of money is not the big difficulty at all. After all, £4,000,000 has been provided for the three schemes where operations are being carried on at present. There is an estimate of £4,000,000 more for the two schemes—one on which the survey has been completed and for which the plans and designs have been approved, that is the Corrib; and £2,000,000 is estimated for the Moy. The estimate for the Maine and Inny, two that are now under survey, has not been finally determined, though I know it will bea considerable sum of money. It is not at all a question of money. There is the question of staffing in order to have the work carried out. The question of staffing could be got over, too, but perhaps the question of accommodation is not so easily got over. We have very poor accommodation for the staff we have at present working in the Board of Works. That is easily understood in view of the fact that in 1922 there were 200 of a staff there and there are 650 now. That shows the expansion in activities as far as the State is concerned, when a staff of that size had to be recruited and the work gradually continued to expand. Even if we had a bigger staff, the question of providing proper accommodation for them would be a difficult one. I do not mean living accommodation, of course. I mean office accommodation whereby they would have proper room to carry on their work in designing and planning.

Then we have the question of machinery. As I pointed out here when I was making the statement on drainage to which I have referred, the question of machinery scarcely arises at all. We have sufficient machinery for the amount of work we can do. If we bring in other machinery we will have to provide some place to house it and employ men to look after it, while at the same time we cannot put it into operation. I was advised on the Estimate that we should go all out for buying a lot more machinery. One thing that happened that pleased me very much quite recently and gave a very good picture of the position in regard to machinery and to arterial drainage, was when the Public Accounts Committee paid a visit to our workshops at Inchicore. There were very fine intelligent people on that committee and I may say they were also pretty inquisitive. There was very little there in any section that they did not fully inquire into, in order to obtain information as to why so-and-so was there and what it was and all the rest of it. I think that those of them who were there will agree that the staff were most courteous and obliging and helped them out in every way. They wereshown a system there appertaining to machinery parts where one machine that is working has actually at least 10,000 parts. That gave those people a fair idea of the position and of the difficulties that obtain.

I am not here to deny that the River Nore is an important river and that considerable benefits would accrue to the people both in the City of Kilkenny and also in the rural areas if a drainage scheme were carried out there. The Nore must await its turn. As I explained on the Estimate, we have 28 major catchment areas. Each area comprises 100,000 acres and more. In addition to that, we have 30 minor drainage catchment areas comprising from above 25,000 acres to 100,000 acres. The work cannot be carried out in one, two, three or four or five years and this was not envisaged even in the report of the Drainage Commission. They envisaged a very long period in carrying out drainage in this comprehensive way. Even as far as the Drainage Commission are concerned, they did not have the information nor the experience of the people charged with the carrying out of arterial drainage—the commissioners and their engineering staffs.

When I say that it takes from 1948, for instance, to 1951 to survey a river like the Corrib, and a couple of years more to design and plan the scheme, Deputies will have a fair idea of the fact that if we are to carry out comprehensive drainage it will take many years before drainage is completed in this country. With the best will in the world, and no matter how much machinery or how much money is provided, the work would take a very considerable time. I may mention also that there is no lack in the provision of machinery or of staff or of money, so far as the Government are concerned. It just amounts to the work which a machine is able to do. You can drive a motor car up to a certain capacity and then, even if you accelerate, you will get none the more out of it. It is the same in this case.

I have made it clear on various occasions that I am not dictating in any way to the commissioners—nor do I intend to dictate to them. Noamount of pressure that might be brought to bear on me from any side of the House will make me act in a way which, in my opinion, would be altogether detrimental to the national interest. The people who are there charged with the carrying out of the arterial drainage of this country, are, in my opinion, people with a very impartial outlook——

Mr. O'Leary

They are too slow.

Mr. Beegan

——and they are quite capable of doing their work. Many factors now arise in respect of drainage that did not arise even as recently as 1947. These factors have to be taken into consideration. For instance, you must consider the development work which is being carried out by the E.S.B., by Bord na Móna and even by the Department of Agriculture. As a matter of fact, the sugar company also are carrying out development work on a very large scale in this country.

I could express sympathy with this motion and, in doing so, I would not be hypocritical because I could express the same sympathy to Deputies from the various other parts of the country. However, there is not much use in expressing sympathy unless you are in a position to give it immediate practical effect. I am not in a position to do that now as regards the Nore. I outlined what was being done. I pointed out that the Brosna was the first scheme, then the Glyde and Dee and then the Feale. The survey of the Corrib was undertaken and it took a long time to do it. A survey was undertaken of the Nenagh catchment area and the designing and planning —as I pointed out here last week in reply to a question by three Deputies —is almost completed. After that, we have the Maine in Kerry and the Inny in Westmeath and Longford. These are also under survey.

I outlined that that was as far as I was prepared to go in making a promise and that, as a result of representations made to me both by Bord na Móna and the Irish Sugar Company, I would be prepared to recommend to the Government—at the request, of course, of the commissioners—that theSuck would be the next for survey. That would be about six or seven, I think, of the major catchment areas. There are still 22 to be dealt with. I am not going beyond that in making a promise here. The other 22 will be considered on their merits and on their merits alone. I am not going to interfere with the people who, I have said, are charged with the carrying-out of arterial drainage in an impartial manner. They have not to go out on the hustings to play-up for the popular vote, or anything like that. They are in quite an independent position. I have confidence in them that they will discharge their duties in an impartial manner.

Mr. O'Leary

They will take their time at it.

Mr. Beegan

It is all very well for Deputy O'Leary to talk about the length of time that it takes to carry out a job—without having the vaguest idea in the world of all the work that has to be put into the preparation of one of these schemes.

Mr. O'Leary

Kilkenny and Carlow have two Ministers in this Government.

Mr. Beegan

If only Deputy O'Leary had come out—like his colleague, Deputy Hickey—and seen for himself what was being carried out even in our workshop in Inchicore he would have some idea of the problem that faces the people who are responsible in this matter.

Mr. O'Leary

Inchicore and the Nore are two different places. Kilkenny and Carlow have two Ministers in this Government. They will never get this work undertaken if they do not get it done now. There are two Ministers from that area in this Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order! Will Deputy O'Leary please cease interrupting?

Mr. Beegan

This is how Deputy O'Leary and Deputy O. Flanagan would act if they had the responsibility of carrying out the work ofarterial drainage. They would see to it that their own counties and their own constituencies were catered for first.

Mr. O'Leary

Would that not be a good job?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Leary must stop his interruptions and allow the Parliamentary Secretary to make his speech.

Mr. Beegan

That is not the line I believe in.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Judging by what we have heard in this House from time to time, the Galway people are not backward in that direction, either.

Mr. Beegan

If anybody on these Fianna Fáil Benches makes representations to me to try and push the Nore forward, these representations will have the same force with me as representations made by any Deputy on the Opposition Benches. They will have the same force with me as representations by Deputies on any side.

Mr. O'Leary

That is a bad policy.

Mr. Beegan

I treat them, as Deputies representing the Carlow-Kilkenny constituency, as I would treat the other Deputies representing that constituency. That is the right and proper way, and the way the Fianna Fáil Government have always dealt with matters.

Mr. O'Leary

The Parliamentary Secretary might be honest, but the Board of Works are not.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is it Deputy O'Leary is making this statement or the Parliamentary Secretary?

Mr. Dunne

A little of both.

An Ceann Comhairle

It looks as if Deputy O'Leary is making most of it. He will have to restrain himself.

Mr. Beegan

I am glad we have these interjections because I think I can deal with them pretty well. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach is interested in the rivers in County Limerick and there are otherDeputies who are interested in rivers all over the country.

Mr. O'Leary

If I were Parliamentary Secretary I would get things done in my own constituency. You should do the same.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Leary apparently takes no notice of what the Chair says to him.

Mr. Beegan

If I were to follow that line of action there are several rivers in County Galway I could find—two of them major rivers and a number of them minor ones—where the question of flooding is very acute and has been brought to my notice very forcibly on very many occasions. I can do nothing with them, however, because the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945, is there and nothing can be done, except within the provisions of that Act and on a comprehensive basis. We cannot have piecemeal drainage. There was some experience of that and it was as a result of that experience that the Drainage Commission of 1938 or 1939 was set up. The commission went into this very thoroughly and were agreed that the proper thing to do was to have comprehensive drainage carried out, so that afterwards there would be only maintenance, and carried out in such a way as to ensure that the people downstream would not suffer because of land in the upper reaches being drained.

I do not want to go into the merits or demerits of the Local Authorities (Works) Act. In principle, I hold that it was a good Act, but the way in which it was carried out in certain areas left a good deal to be desired. A great many complaints have been made about it in my own constituency, and, strange as it may seem, the very first people to condemn it in my area and who came to me about it were people who were not of my political thought at all. That does not say that it is not good in principle—it is all a question of how it is administered and carried out. The same is true of arterial drainage. If the proper steps were not being taken to carry out arterial drainage as it should be carried out and in accordance with theplans outlined by the engineers and assistants, we should have the very same complaints about it.

Deputy Flanagan asked what were we doing about arterial drainage at all, but if he had read the statement I made on the Vote on 22nd October last he would have found it there. I did not refer on that occasion to a statement he made that I promised the drainage of the Shannon at a meeting of Shannon farmers in Shannonbridge. That meeting was attended by Deputy O'Higgins, Deputy Flanagan, Deputy Davin, Deputy Boland and I also went there. I did not take up the line I took up for the purpose of embarrassing the then Government, but I pointed out to these people that I did not believe that drainage would ever be carried out on the Shannon because it was too comprehensive and would cost too much. Deputy Flanagan then comes in and twists that statement and says I made a promise I never made.

I am not going to make any promise now and I am not going to make promises unless I believe they are capable of being carried out. So far as the Nore is concerned, while nothing would be more pleasing to me than to be able to tell the Deputies who put down this motion that we will be sending a survey staff to the Nore within the next six months, I am not in a position to do so. We have to work according to a well-planned schedule and, as I say, varying factors will arise from time to time which will have to be taken into consideration. That is why I am not prepared to commit myself very far in advance. Other circumstances might arise in the future which would perhaps alter the picture also and consequently the schemes will have to be examined on their merits. The Nore in conjunction with the other 22 schemes remaining for examination will also have to stand on its merits. If the commissioners feel that it is entitled to priority over the other schemes, Deputies will find that I will not object to that. I am sure they would have very sound reasons for such a decision and would have the same sound reasons in relation to the others.

I can assure Deputies that there isno such thing as any personal prejudice on my part, or on the part of the Government, in relation to the Nore. We cannot take into consideration the fact that Carlow and Kilkenny have two Ministers of State. That fact has to be ignored also. As I said, I am thankful to Deputy O'Higgins and Deputy Crotty for the way they put this motion and for the reasonable manner in which they put forward their case, but I am not in the least thankful to Deputy Flanagan, because he was not interested in the drainage of the Nore. What he was interested in was his desire to discredit the Minister for Lands and the Minister for Agriculture because they are two Ministers of State.

Mr. Crotty

If we have not got a comprehensive survey of the Nore, we have got a comprehensive answer from the Parliamentary Secretary, for which I thank him, but I regret that the Parliamentary Secretary was not in a position to give us some solid statement as to when we will get the drainage. In 1947, when we had that terrible devastation in Kilkenny, the then Parliamentary Secretary, the former Deputy O'Grady, said: "I am not in a position to state exactly when a scheme can be prepared for the Nore area." I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary at that time did not say that merely for himself. He had consultations with the Government and with the commissioners. After these consultations he apparently said: "We cannot do it immediately. We cannot state exactly when we will do it but we will put it on the list to be done at an early date." I thought that to-day, six years after that, we would have been able to get some guarantee that if the work is not done this year or next year it will be done in the near future.

The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned that we had not the accommodation. I hope the Nore drainage scheme is not going to be held up for want of accommodation. He also stated that he is not prepared to influence the Commissioners of Public Works. I do not blame him for that. The commissioners have their own jobs to do and the Parliamentary Secretarycannot use undue influence with them. He also stated that there might be a change in the near future and that other considerations might arise. Are we to have another devastation in Kilkenny such as we had in 1947 before there will be a change? I would be sorry if we had to wait for another such terrible devastation in order to bring about a change in the Office of Public Works.

The Parliamentary Secretary treated us very reasonably. I should like to point out that there is now a development fund and apparently the Governare going around to see where that money can be spent to the best advantage. The Parliamentary Secretary stated that there were only strips of land affected by the River Nore. That is not correct. I have lived in that area all my life and have seen the terrible flooding of land that takes place. Since the Parlimentary Secretary is not prepared to do much about the other matter in the next year, would he not ask the Government to devote some of the money in the development fund to the removal of the principal obstructions in the River Nore? I do not suggest a piecemeal drainage scheme. I am asking that the obvious obstructions in the River Nore be removed. That would relieve flooding to a very large extent until we have the comprehensive survey.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.