On the motion for the Adjournment, Deputy Kyne has given notice that he intends to raise the subject matter of Question No. 40 on to-day's Order Paper.
Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—Distribution of New Zealand Butter.
To-day, when I asked Question No. 40, it must have been obvious that the question was intended to elicit information following a question I put down at a former date. I had intended, if the reply was as I expected, to ask for further information in regard to butter supplies by means of a supplementary question. The reply I received from the Minister indicated by the nature of the word "continued" that the one wholesaler who the Minister indicated was distributing supplies of New Zealand butter was not the wholesaler in whom I was interested, Mr. Gallagher. A supplementary question put directly by me to the Minister confirmed that assumption of mine. I propose to prove that the information given to me by the Minister in reply to the question was incorrect.
I do not suggest that it was a deliberate incorrect statement by the Minister. I am satisfied that he replied correctly by virtue of the information he received, but I propose, because of being denied the right I had as a Dáil Deputy of seeking the information which I could normally get, to take advantage of the privilege that is given to a Dáil Deputy, when dissatisfied with the nature of a reply, to raise the matter on the Adjournment in the hope that the Minister will equally take advantage in his reply to give to this House the information I sought. He was aware that Mr. Joseph Gallagher, in addition to——
What has Mr. Gallagher to do with this, a Cheann Comhairle? Nothing, as far as I know.
I made it quite definite that what I would allow the Deputy to discuss was how many wholesalers were distributing New Zealand butter in the Dublin area and from what date. I told the Deputy that very specifically because he had raised the matter here about a week ago. Icannot allow him to traverse the same ground to-night and the Deputy will see that is quite obvious.
I take it that it is the Chair's ruling that not only can I deal with the subject matter of the question as written, but also with the Minister's reply to the question. Is that not my right?
I will hear the Deputy as far as I conceive it to be relevant.
The Minister in his reply stated that there was but one wholesaler who had been continuously distributing New Zealand butter. I hope to prove that that reply is incorrect and I suggest that I must name the gentleman in order to be able to prove my case. According to the Minister there is but one wholesaler continuously distributing New Zealand butter. When I prove that another is distributing New Zealand butter, obviously I prove that the statement of the Minister is incorrect. I will give reasons why the House should believe that another man is distributing New Zealand butter. To do that, I think I am entitled to quote a statement made by that man that he is compelled to distribute New Zealand butter.
The Deputy traversed that ground this day week.
Let me put it this way— that the wholesaler, Mr. Gallagher, informed me that he is distributing New Zealand butter. He also informed me that to his knowledge—and he is a well-known man in the trade in Dublin—there is no other wholesaler distributing New Zealand butter.
Mr. Walsh
The implication is that my answer to-day was incorrect. That implication will have to be withdrawn.
The Deputy stated he was not imputing that the Minister made any incorrect statement.
Mr. Walsh
The Deputy has now stated that my reply was incorrect or untruthful.
There is a difference between incorrect and untruthful. The Deputy has not charged the Minister with making a deliberate statement of untruthfulness.
I did not suggest and neither do I suggest that the Minister deliberately told an untruth. I suggest that the Minister, acting in good faith on information which I can only presume he received from the Butter Marketing Committee, made a statement which I propose to prove incorrect. I am quoting that Mr. Joseph Gallagher, a wholesale butter merchant claims that he has been compelled to distribute New Zealand butter. I am also prepared to state that Mr. Joseph Gallagher, who is a wholesale butter dealer, can confirm from his wide knowledge that not a single retail shop in Dublin is receiving New Zealand butter from any wholesale butter merchant. If these things are correct surely the information the Minister has given this House is, to say the least of it, inaccurate. I thought the Minister would take the opportunity to make a statement and to check up on the position. Dealing with another question last week he stated that he would seek a report. Normally if I put down a question in this House and the Minister states: "I have not the information" he usually adds: "Will the Deputy table this question next week," or perhaps after a fortnight or a month or whatever time he thinks. If that is not done I must assume that the Minister would make the report when it came into his possession.
Mr. Walsh
I must interrupt the Deputy again. The statements being made by Deputy Kyne have no bearing on the question he put to me to-day. The question he asked me was:—
"To ask the Minister for Agriculture if he will state how many wholesalers are distributing New Zealand butter in the Dublin area and from what date."
I take it that the Minister's decision as to what is or is notprocedure is to say the least of it implying that you are failing——
I am not taking it in that way. The Minister is entitled to make a submission that the Deputy is travelling beyond the question.
I am prepared to bow to your ruling when you tell me I am out of order.
I am giving the Deputy as much latitude as possible to make his case. He must not travel beyond the terms of the question as to how many wholesalers are distributing New Zealand butter in the Dublin area and from what date. Those are the only two pertinent points.
Surely I am entitled to ask the Minister that he might, from courtesy, give certain facts in his reply or state whether or not he is now in a position to give that information? I am indicating that the reply he got was incorrect. I am suggesting that because of the fact that I can prove that another wholesaler is involved in this the Minister should give an undertaking to make further inquiries because of the inaccuracy of the reply he has got. If he will give that assurance I will be perfectly satisfied. I am seeking this opportunity because the Dáil is dissolving——
Not dissolving.
Not for another while anyway. Because the Dáil is going into Recess I cannot put down another question but I can take advantage of a technical point to give the Minister an opportunity of dealing with what I believe to be a matter of vital interest. I submit the Minister can reply to that. Let me say that I would take the same opportunity to raise this matter with a Minister of my own Party if in power if I believed the information received was incorrect. The Minister would ease the minds of the Dublin people if he would reply. It is as much in the Minister's interests as in mine that the truth should be known as to whether or notthere has been victimisation of a person or not.
Mr. Walsh
I answered a question which was put to me to-day. I think I gave a full answer to the question, which was: "To ask the Minister for Agriculture if he will state how many wholesalers are distributing New Zealand butter in the Dublin area and from what date?" My answer was:—
"Since the full-scale distribution of imported butter in the Dublin area was discontinued in July last one wholesaler has continued to purchase imported butter regularly each week from the Butter Marketing Committee." I did not think there was anything ambiguous about that answer. In a supplementary question afterwards, Deputy Kyne tried to bring in other matters which we discussed in this House last week. I gave him a further answer that it was not the person to whom he had referred who was taking the butter from the Butter Marketing Committee but that another person was taking it. There is no compulsion on anybody to take imported butter or to distribute it here in Dublin. No compulsion has been introduced into the matter. It might be information for the Deputy to know that the reason for the restriction on a certain number of wholesalers in Dublin is, as I pointed out last week, that at this period when New Zealand butter is about to be put on the market—in a short time from now—it is necessary in many cases to restrict the sale of Irish butter from the Butter Marketing Committee to wholesalers, simply for the purpose of avoiding the hoarding of stocks that would be placed on the market when the imported butter would be coming along. This has happened every year—this is not the first time.
I stopped Deputy Kyne——
Mr. Walsh
I am merely giving him an answer.
I have no objection.
I do not want either side to go beyond the limits.
Mr. Walsh
I do not wish to go into the matter any more fully than I did last week, but it was a case of explaining to the Deputy that there was no victimisation of anybody in this regard. If he thinks there is, then he is wrong. The steps were taken for the purpose of preventing somebody hoarding Irish butter, to put it on the market at the same time as the New Zealand butter.
I want to inquire from the Minister—this is not a trick question—why no inspection was carried out as to whether the person involved was genuine or not? Is the Minister or the board not satisfied that he is a genuine wholesaler?
Mr. Walsh
Nobody has said anything about the genuineness of any wholesaler.
You mentioned hoarding.
Mr. Walsh
The steps were takenin order to avoid it. The same quantity of butter is going out to the Dublin consumer. If the Deputy states that the people of Dublin are eating far more butter than they were two months ago that is another question. I gave the Deputy a straightforward answer to his question and to his supplementary and there was nothing more I could do.
Mr. A. Byrne
Might I ask the Minister whether, during the Christmas season or shortly afterwards, the Dublin public will get their share of the Irish creamery butter?
That is a different matter. I got no notice of that.
Mr. Walsh
There is no scheme prepared for the distribution of any butter.
The Dáil adjourned at 11.20 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 18th December, 1953.