At Question Time to-day I asked the Minister for Lands in Question 26:—
"if he will state what proposals the Land Commission have under consideration for dealing with the congested areas and to what extent they propose meeting this problem by the migration of small farmers and others?"
In the following Question No. 27 I asked the Minister for Lands:—
"if he will state (1) the number of migrants whom the Land Commission propose transferring from each county in the West of Ireland during the next few years, and (2) the number of farmers from areas other than the congested areas proposed for transfer during the same period?"
In reply to that the Minister said:—
"As to the first part of the question, I would refer the Deputy to a written statement given in reply to a similar question put down by Deputy Bartley on 3rd November, 1954.
As to the second part, almost every migrant comes from a congested area since it is essential that his surrendered holding should be of value in relieving congestion".
In reply to the question asking the Minister what proposals the Land Commission had under consideration for dealing with congested areas and to what extent they proposed to meet this problem by the migration of small farmers and others, the Minister said:—
"During the last six financial years the Land Commission divided 160,000 acres of untenanted land of which 121,000 acres was utilised for the relief of congestion, a total of 8,000 congests benefiting thereby. In all, about 530 migrants were transferred to new holdings, the vast majority of them being small farmers.
"It is expected that for some few years the Land Commission will be able to do at least as much for the relief of congestion."
The question by Deputy Bartley to which the Minister referred me was as follows:—
"To ask the Minister for Lands if he will say how many holdings the Land Commission will provide in this financial year for people from each separate county of the congested area in exchange for their former holdings."
The Minister's answer to that was:—
"The success of a scheme of migration depends very much on the goodwill and co-operation of those affected by it; I think, therefore, that it would not be to the advantage of the people to disclose figures which would only provoke jealousy and dissension between the various congested districts. The factor that bears most weight with the Land Commission in choosing migrants is the suitability of their original holdings for increasing and rearranging the holdings which will be left."
I submit that the Minister deliberately evaded a direct reply to a direct question. The first of my questions was to ask the Minister for Lands what proposals the Land Commission have under consideration for dealing with the congested areas and I also asked him to state the number of migrants that the Land Commission propose to transfer from each county in the West of Ireland during the next few years and he refers me to a reply which he gave to Deputy Bartley who asked a similar question on November 3rd. I do not like wearying the House by repeating the reply he gave then. He gave no direct answer. He referred to-day to the evasive answer he gave on that occasion when he said it was not desirable to give figures, that it might lead to misunderstandings and jealousies between different parts of the congested areas.
One thing to which I want to refer is that if his answer to Deputy Bartley be taken on its face value it discloses that it would not be advantageous to discuss figures which would only provoke "jealousy and dissension between the various congested districts" and he said: "The factor that bears most weight with the Land Commission in choosing migrants is the suitability of their original holdings for increasing and rearranging the holdings that will be left." Surely the Minister as a man with responsibility for such an important part of our life should have more sense than to say that he only considers the one problem of how the farms that remain after the migrants have gone can be utilised. Does he not know that migration is wrong? Does he not know that even with the utmost power and resources with direct migration he can only deal in a small way with the problem of emigration? He must take into consideration other factors as well as that, such as what other means of living exists in these areas apart from the land, how much these farmers get from fishing or from industries perhaps in the vicinity. They cannot make a living on their farms. If only the holdings of those who have migrated are available how can the Minister find land to be divided to create new holdings? If that is the Minister's attitude he should not be in his position.
The whole problem is: what is going to be done with the congested areas and how far is the Minister looking forward to providing ways and means through direct migration for a solution to that major problem? That is one of the most stupid answers a Minister or anybody else could give. It shows that he has no interest in dealing with the problem in its widest sense. His refusal to give figures as to the number of migrants taken from each county suggests a sinister motive.
The Minister is as well aware as I am that it has been stated time and again that, since he became Minister, a preference has been given to certain counties in the West of Ireland to the detriment of other counties the claims of which were equally good but which have been mercilessly neglected. In his own interest and in the interests of decency in public administration, the Minister should go out of his way to assure the public that these rumours are, as I hope they are, unfounded, and to give me the figures in a direct way in reply to a direct question. If the day comes when a Minister in this Parliament of ours refuses to answer direct questions on matters which are of vital importance, the day is also coming close when the public will no longer have any confidence or belief in representation in the Dáil, and when our people will be driven to adopt other methods of getting satisfaction for their grievances than by means of questions here, if these questions are to be treated cavalierly and evasive answers given.
I appeal to the Minister to reconsider this matter and to give me the full answer to the questions I put to him to-day, to give me the numbers taken from each county. I did not ask him for the figures for six years; I asked him only for the figures for last year. Why make the position more involved by bringing me back five or six years? I know very well that the number migrated from my part of the country during the past six years is infinitesimal, and I know that last year the number would not exceed five from County Leitrim, which is one of the most congested and needy areas, in the matter of migration, in the country. I do not want an answer from the Minister in relation to five years, but I want to know what is his plan for the next few years, as definitely set out in my question. No reply was given to that.
Why this evasion? Why not tell us? Do I not know perfectly well that, in Leitrim and Sligo, many families are holding themselves together under difficult conditions and refusing even yet to emigrate to other countries, because of their hope that at least now, when war conditions have passed and a new Government is in office, conditions will improve to the extent of their being enabled to get a means of living on alternative farms in other parts of the country. Do not continue to deceive them. For God's sake, be honest and tell these people that the number of migrants from their area in the past five years is almost negligible — a maximum of ten out of all the hundreds the Minister has referred to — and tell them not to be wasting their time in hoping that you have any plans to do better for them. Let them follow the example of the man who tries to make provision for himself and his family by going elsewhere, as is your plan.
I can tell the Minister here and now that his present plan is to emigrate the people from North Leitrim and part of North Sligo and get rid of them. The Minister sends out circulars each half-year when the annuity comes due to all these small farmers asking them will they sell their land to his Department for afforestation. He wants to replace the human beings down there with trees. That is his plan. I have clear evidence of that, and, in the absence of straightforward answers to my questions, I charge him with being guilty of such an effort. In the old days when Cromwell came here, according to tradition, he said: "To Hell or to Connaught." There was a choice, but the Minister now gives them no choice. He forces them out of their holdings and leaves them without an alternative means of living.
If that is his policy, I can tell him that, so far as lies within my power, I am going to bring all these facts before the people and tell them that questions by me in the Dáil and representations made here on their behalf are going to be of no avail, that they are to be left to fend for themselves and to use their own resources in defence of what they acquired under terrible conditions and continue to preserve under the same conditions. Let the Minister take responsibility. Let him answer these questions directly and let him tell us what is his plan for the next few years. Let him give me the figures of the numbers he proposes to transfer.
