"Class" is very wide. What is the interpretation of "class"? Could it be considered as a class for a particular group of counties? However, we are bringing the Minister into more law that he has not contested and perhaps does not want to; we need not go into that. We will assume for the moment— though there may be an arguable case in the line suggested—that when he defines "class" he means all the officers of that class. I can see there is a certain difficulty in the Minister's or the Department's way if the county medical officer of a particular county, we will say the County of Blank, is proving a little recalcitrant from the Minister's point of view. The Minister wants him to do a certain thing or be in a certain position, and finds that he can only compel that county medical officer of health to undertake certain duties if he mends his hand as a whole, so that if he compels the county medical officer of health for Blank to do it, all other officers of health will have to undertake similar duties.
That I conceive to be the situation at present. What the Minister wants to be able to do is to isolate the county medical officer of health, the county engineer or any other office holder of the County of Blank and deal with things specifically, and that would be that. I will not go to the extent of saying that the Minister would be completely unreasonable in seeking to have powers of this nature. After all, he could run into a situation where a particular office holder would be troublesome; on the other hand is it or is it not going a little too far to give this power of dealing specifically with the individual without having the complications of having to deal with other officers of the class? From the point of view of the class and from the point of view of the individual there is a certain safeguard for the individual as against the machine in the fact that the class of office has to be dealt with rather than a single isolated person in an isolated position.
I do not think I have stated the position in this regard unfairly. If I have, the Minister will be quick to correct me. I do not know what the opinion of the House would be in this. My own general leaning would be that I cannot see a situation where powers are necessary specifically that would not be necessary in relation to the class. On general principle I would be reluctant to grant a provision like this to the Minister, reluctant only on the grounds, I hasten to add, that it is isolating individual office holders for specific and easy action. I know from the departmental point of view that it is highly desirable, and it may be that it is very reasonable that the Minister should have these powers; nevertheless, I have a feeling that it is no harm that there might be certain difficulties in the way of the machine; it is no harm that the problem of having to deal with office holders should be faced. It would be a very wrong thing if we made it easy for a dash of the pen to cure every headache the Department has. I am afraid the tendency is very much that way in this Bill. That is the reason I am speaking on it at all. The principles in this regard and the things the Minister wants to do are common cause between us in many respects but on the wording of the Bill it is too easy to take power to dispose of something with a scratch of a pen, and that is that. That is why I hesitate on this.
On the other hand, this is one of the things the Minister will deal with personally and I have not the strong objection I had to Section 14 (n). The Minister says it is to remove a doubt but the very wording of that section suggests to me that here is a case where a certain office holder has taken office and holds office under certain conditions; when he took office under those conditions he had at that time the safety that existed under Section 20 of the 1941 Act, which tells him that all office holders would be in the same position, so to speak. Now to his detriment—and I very much fear it will be to his detriment—be he county medical officer of health, county engineer or any other officer, a position will be brought about where his case can be isolated, where he can be taken apart from his professional colleagues or his office and dealt with as the Department requires. I am wondering is it fair. I wonder is it necessary to give the Minister these powers? Has he not sufficient power under the present section? Is this not what I might call a power of convenience for the administration? If it is merely a power of convenience it is, to my mind, unnecessary and in the present circumstances a dangerous power to take.
The Minister has mentioned the question of an office holder being asked to do duty for another public authority in pursuance generally of the provisions of Section 58 and all that would flow therefrom. Supposing you want to bring about a situation where the county medical officer of Blank will carry out the duties for the county medical officer of some other county, surely it is possible to frame a regulation in general terms that will cover every county and every office holder without prejudice to the Minister being able to get things done but also without damaging a particular office holder.
I must again express my own nervousness of this provision. I do not like it, and I am not satisfied that it is necessary. Since 1941 to the present day this situation has ruled. Admittedly, the case mentioned by the Minister is a new one under this Bill, but I cannot see that Section 58 can be made the excuse—the Minister will pardon the word; I am not suggesting that he is putting it that way—or the reason for everything. If Section 58 is given as the reason, let us answer the argument of Section 58 and on the argument in relation to that section I can only say that I see no valid reason why a general declaration or a general Order wide enough to cover all the classes cannot be made to suit the Minister's requirement. If it is a question of declaring that all county medical officers of health will undertake, if required, certain duties, I see no reason why that cannot be put in. To make that the excuse for legislating for a specified officer, whether the office holder is the county medical officer of health or the county engineer, seems to me to be a little unreasonable.
I do not know if any representations have been made to the Minister on this. I do not know if the office holders concerned have in any way been consulted in this regard. It would be interesting to know. I think a section of this nature requires that in some form or another the views of the people affected should be presented by the Administration, because to some extent it is going back to a question of their initial contract. However, I have said all I can usefully say on the section, but I would like some further and greater justification for the inclusion of this power—in view of the length of time that has elapsed since 1941—other than Section 58 of this Bill.