Vol. 151 No. 12
Tairgim:—
Go ndeonfar suim nach mó ná £2,860 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfas chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1956, chun Tuarastal agus Costas Oifig na Gaeltachta agus na gCeantar gCúng.
Tá sábháilt ann i mbliana maidir le tuarastal an Rúnaí Pharlaiminte. Ní bheidh an t-airgead sin ar an Vóta i mbliana. Ar Vóta Uimhir a 3 a bheas an tuarastal sin i mbliana.
Is íonadh liom nach bhfuil níos mó le rá ag an Aire faoi Oifig na Gaeltachta agus na gCeantar gCúng. Níor thug sé eolas dúinn ach go bhfuil sábháilt ann mar gheall air nach bhfuil Rúnaí Parlaiminte i bhfeighil na hoibre. An bhfuilim chun tuiscint as an tagairt a rinne an tAire do Vóta Uimhir a 3 gurb é Rúnaí Parlaiminte an Rialtais a bheas freagarthach nó an Taoiseach féin nó conas a bheidh an scéal?
Bhí mé ag caint faoi thuarastal an Rúnaí Pharlaiminte.
Rinne an tAire tagairt do Vóta Uimhir a 3.
Tá tuarastal an Rúnaí Pharlaiminte ar Vóta Uimhir a 3 anois.
Tuarastal an Rúnaí Pharlaiminte. Do cheapas go nglacfadh an tAire leis an ócáid seo chun a chur in iúl do Dháil Eireann agus don tír cad é an polasaí a bheas le hoibriú ag an Rialtas faoin Oifig seo. Tá a lán mí-shásta le nach bhfuil níos mó á dhéanamb i gcóir na Gaeltachta agus na gCeantar gCúng. Tá a lán tuairimí ann freisin faoi conas an obair a dhéanamh.
Tá daoine ann a cheapann gur chóir Aireacht a chur ar bun don Ghaeltacht. Tá daoine ann a cheapann gur cheart dul siar go dtí an sean-nós imeachta agus Bord faoi leith a bheith ann fé mar a bhí ann in aimsir shean-Bhoird na gceantar cúnga. Do cheapamar nár bhféidir Bord a chur ar bun, i é, go bhféadfai Bord a chur ar bun i gcóir ábhair faoi leith ach nach raibh cúis sáthach láidir ann le Bord a chur ar bun leis na rudaí sna ceantair chúnga a thabhairt ele chéile; gur bhfearr cúrsaí bóithre, tithe, uisce agus gach rud eile fhágáil mar atá siad, roinnte idir na ranna eile Rialtais atá freagarthach. Dá mbeadh cúis faoi leith ann chun scéim faoi leith a chur ar bun dob fhearr Bord faoi leith a chur ar bun chun é dhéanamh agus chun, go bhféadfaí sin a dhéanamh.
I have been saying that I regret the Minister for Local Government has not been able to give us any indications of the Government's intentions with regard to this office or indeed, any indication of Government policy generally in so far as this occasion presents itself to review the situation in so far as the Government activities may affect the Irish language position in the Gaeltacht areas and Government schemes generally affect the position of the people in the congested areas.
I have been saying that there are many opinions about how the welfare of the Gaeltacht area might best be safeguarded, some people feeling that a Ministry ought to be specially established to take over the care of these areas. Others have strongly advocated the establishment of a board somewhat similar to the old Congested Districts Board.
In that connection we felt, when in office, that pending further examination of the question, our experience had not led us to believe that a board was really necessary. If the proposal was that such a board should take over the functions allotted to the different Departments, the public services, for the administration of which they were responsible, it did not seem to us that that in itself would necessarily improve the situation. You would have precisely the same difficulties in regard to administration and the same problems. The transfer of these functions would create anomalies and difficulties and change machinery of administration which is already working fairly satisfactorily.
In spite of these considerations, we appreciated, as do all those who are interested in the revival of the language and its preservation as a first step in the Gaeltacht areas, that our view might not necessarily be that held by the majority of the people; we appreciated indeed that our holding that view in itself would not be sufficient cause to prevent the experiment of a board if opinion generally felt that that was a desirable course. We did not feel in our particular circumstances that it was necessary or desirable but we felt that there should be something more done than during our previous term of office. Therefore, a Parliamentary Secretary was appointed with special duties and responsibilities in regard to these areas.
It is true that the specific functions and services under the charge of the various Government Departments were not transferred to the custody of the Parliamentary Secretary. He was merely responsible for this small office but he had a general power of review, and direct access to the Government. His duty was to see that schemes of advantage to the Gaeltacht would be pushed forward. If it should happen that, due to pressure of work or any other reason, the Government Departments were not dealing expeditiously with such schemes, the function of the Parliamentary Secretary was to take steps, either through the Minister concerned or directly through the Government to which, as I have said, he had access, to get these schemes expedited and put into operation.
He visited the Gaeltacht areas and brought back a great deal of information regarding the conditions there and the type of proposal which the people in those areas felt might have a reasonable chance of success and give employment. These were examined and when the Government set up the National Development Fund they intended that a substantial sum of money should be set aside for Gaeltacht schemes specifically. I think about £250,000 had been earmarked before we left office for special schemes apart from whatever allocation was made for roads. I think up to £400,000 was allocated specifically for what might be described as tourist roads in the Gaeltacht areas.
In connection with schemes like the Grassmeal Company, about which we had a parliamentary question here yesterday, the Parliamentary Secretary had, if not direct responsibility, a special interest and had a good deal to say in the establishment of that scheme. A Parliamentary Secretary even with the limited function of co-ordination and general supervision, if he has direct access to the Government, if he is an active man who has an interest in the Gaeltacht and who visits the areas, sees what is going on in regard to the local industries, and agriculture and in fisheries, and makes recommendations accordingly, fulfils, in my opinion, a useful function.
The Government have set up a Parliamentary Secretaryship to the Government, the functions of which office are not quite clear to me. Perhaps I would not be far wrong in suggesting they entail a certain roving commission in regard to budgetary questions, State companies, and so on, and assisting the Taoiseach generally. If the Government had transferred this office to the Taoiseach and made a Parliamentary Secretary responsible for carrying on what had been done in Deputy Lynch's time it would be understandable but at present the matter is being left in the air. We do not know whether the Minister for Local Government will continue to be responsible. We have not heard from him as to what the intention is or what it is proposed to do.
Does the Minister think that he himself, in addition to his own responsibility as Minister for Local Government, will be able to carry on the type of work which Deputy Lynch was carrying on? Will he, in particular, be able to make himself responsible for schemes of fisheries, afforestation and agriculture, and see that these are pushed forward and that through the National Development Fund sufficient finances are provided to enable the schemes to be proceeded with.
I stated already recently, in the discussion on the Gaeltacht Services Vote and on the Forestry Vote, that while it is most desirable that afforestation and other such services giving part-time employment during the year should be established and that they would certainly be of assistance and provide amelioration in those areas, they are not sufficient.
There is the enormous attraction, if I may use the word "attraction", the enormous pull let us say upon young people to leave the country at the present time, since they believe they can do much better themselves across the water, drawing high pay there and if it should suit them later on to come home after a number of years with their pay packets, we hope, safely deposited and some hundreds of pounds to show at the end of that period. That used to be the pattern, not, perhaps, that there were hundreds of pounds in question but there were some sums of money at any rate brought home which enabled people in the congested areas to continue their existence there.
But the pattern has changed as I said on the Vote for the Department of Lands. It is no longer a question of migration from these areas; it is a question of emigration for good in so far as one can see, because our town-lands are clearing out and not alone in the very poorest parts of the country to which, strange to say, the people may come back in such places as Donegal and Mayo, but in comparatively well off parts of the congested areas like Roscommon where there are large numbers of derelict houses and from which, apparently, whole families have emigrated.
I think that even with all the combined efforts of the members of this House and all the machinery and the resources of the Government, it would take an enormous push on the part of us all to try and stem this emigration and to control the forces that are causing these young people to go. It seems to me, and I have always believed it, particularly when I was Minister for Education, that when the numbers of our young people of marriageable ago to go below a certain level in any area it is only a matter of time until they all clear out. We have had examples of that in the Kerry Gaeltacht and in other such areas and if one went to these areas, not to-day or yesterday but even several years ago, one could see that in the church on Sundays the congregations were composed mainly of middle-aged or elderly people.
So the process did not start to-day or yesterday. Emigration to the United States of America seemed to cease, at least in the great volume to which we were accustomed in our younger days, but with the war and the conditions after the war, the boom conditions that are said to exist in Great Britain and the shortage of labour and the fact that you have large Irish communities over there—large Irish communities of young people— there cannot be the slightest doubt that the pull or attraction is there for our young people to leave their native parishes in Ireland. I believe that afforestation and such other part-time schemes are very useful and of great assistance. I realise in the case of afforestation that unless you can in future do it on a very large scale, by taking over not hundreds but thousands of acres of land, you will not be able to give regular employment.
What is to stop us taking over thousands of acres?
I say unless that is done. What is stopping us is the legal difficulty which we are told we have to deal with and the fact that a great many people are not prepared to sell at any price and that, therefore, our forestry plans suffer. A great many people go to Boston and Philadelphia and leave their land there as a pied-a-terre, a place to which they can return after a number of years. The Department in many cases is not able to get the lands without considerable trouble over lengthy periods. If we are going to provide employment for any considerable number of people in these areas something more must be done than the planting of trees. You must have a very big scheme to keep up the numbers employed until the first trees reach the thinning stage.
With regard to the fisheries, probably Deputy Bartley will be able to deal with that. But I should like to say this: I have always felt it was a great pity, and the emergency period seemed to show we had great opportunities, that we have not developed our fisheries, in this country to a greater degree. The high price of meat at the present time, the fact that transport has improved so much, that cold storage facilities are more readily available and that all of these modern processes have been brought within the reach of so many should mean that more could be done for the Irish fisheries unless it is that we, as an island race, are going to say we have no interest in the sea.
I quite realise that if you are to have a virile fishing industry you want support not alone from such an organisation as the Sea Fisheries Organisation but from some more fundamental source like the Department of Defence. Unless there are ships provided either by the Department of Defence or by the Department of Industry and Commerce through Irish Shipping Limited, and unless there is some procedure by which young men will be taken on in those ships and either kept on or held as a reserve on the waiting list, obviously it is not easy to create an up-to-date fishing fleet in our conditions. We may have a certain number of boats but I am afraid we will not have an organised fishing industry comparable with that in Great Britain and in other countries unless the conditions I have outlined are fulfilled. However, I shall leave all that to my colleagues to deal with.
My general view is that, while fishing, afforestation, agriculture and rehabilitation of the land are most praiseworthy and useful, unless industries are started in these areas, even though they be small industries—in Donegal in particular which has such a fine industrial tradition we have already a splendid industry in Kilcar which I hope will go ahead and expand—until we have a great many more people employed in these areas, we will not be able to counteract the pull of emigration. We have found out, as I have mentioned in the House already, that the best way to keep the girls at home is to give the boys fairly constant and steady employment. Therefore, it is necessary to have industries in our congested areas and if the Government are to leave this matter in the air we will never achieve a solution to our emigration problems.
I hope the Minister can make a more hopeful statement to us in his concluding remarks and that he can indicate to us what the projects are in which he has an interest and which he feels would be of advantage to the Gaeltacht areas. Inevitably, we feel on this side of the House that not alone will there be no co-ordination and no friendly supervision in the various Government Departments to see that the interests of the Gaeltacht and the congested areas are specially safeguarded, but that we will not have that urge that is necessary and that enthusiasm that a man like the former Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Lynch, when he occupied that post, brought into the work. We now have not the advantage of his enthusiasm and special interest in seeing that schemes, particularly schemes for the establishment of new industries in congested areas, are initiated. There is the further fact that the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Agriculture may feel they have more than enough to do to carry out efficiently the general work of their Departments.
I regret that we have not have had a statement which would give some hope to the Dáil and the people of these areas that the Government is keenly interested in their welfare, and I regret that we have no indication of what steps the Government may feel it necessary to take to improve the position and to answer the general demand that is being made on so many sides at present that more effective, more comprehensive and greater efforts should be made to try to stem emigration from these areas.
I put this Vote in very much the same category as I put the Vote for Forestry—a succession of pious speeches over a period of years and a virtually denuded Gaeltacht. We have heard the ex-Minister for Education talking about the enthusiasm of the Parliamentary Secretary and the efforts of the previous Government. It is time we got away from nonsense. It is true that there may have been enthusiasm on the part of the individual Parliamentary Secretary, but in the Gaeltacht—and I have the honour to represent a very large section of the Gaeltacht—the results of that enthusiasm have been nil and practical application of works or schemes for the benefit of the area has been nil.
I want to say quite frankly and candidly that I cannot see at the moment the basis of any real effort to help the Gaeltacht. The situation has reached such a pitiful stage that it is going to take vision, courage, imagination and effort. There is no good in talking about taking over 1,000 acres of land or nibbling at a scheme here and there. The time has come for a co-ordinated, sensible plan in relation to the activities and lives of the people in the Gaeltacht. We want more than co-operation; we want a directive—whatever type that directive may be—to enable co-ordination and planning as between the vital sections of Government administration in the Gaeltacht and to enable them to become an effective unit.
It is true that on much of the Gaeltacht coast we can develop fishing still further and we should be able to develop, in conjunction with that, subsidiary industry, the raw material for which will be provided by the sea. We should be able to provide large type employment throughout the Gaeltacht areas in afforestation. If there are legal difficulties in the way, as Deputy Derrig seems to envisage, we are the authority and we have the power in this House, and, with the co-operation of the House, we can make the law easier in this regard. We have been told here by the ex-Minister for Education that the initial cost of the acre of land for afforestation is hardly discernible in the ultimate cost of afforestation. I am absolutely convinced that if the people in the Gaeltacht are approached in the right way about this land which can be used for forestry purposes, if they are given a reasonable price for it and given a reasonable prospect of employment on that land on afforestation schemes afterwards, there will be no difficulty at all about getting their co-operation and help.
I do not think as Deputy Derrig thinks, that many of these people are lured away by prospects of better earnings elsewhere. I think that, in the main, and particularly in the Gaeltacht areas, there is a tremendous reluctance to leave. There is something more intimate, more personal, and more fundamental in the tradition of the Gaeltacht, and more of the clan tradition in the Gaeltacht than in other parts of Ireland and it is only the stress of dire necessity in the main which can force these people out of Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas.
Let us face the facts. Deputy Lynch, as Parliamentary Secretary in the previous Government, toured Ireland and met people here, there and everywhere. Schemes of all types were discussed with him, but so far as the wide Gaeltacht area I represent is concerned—from Ballyvourney, Reenaree and Coolea right back into the fastnesses of Beara and the islands of Cape Clear—it has only been hot air and rubbish. I am not blaming the Parliamentary Secretary for that; I am blaming the whole attitude of Governments over the years—talking about the Gaeltacht and the lot of the people there and doing no more than talks. I am convinced that if the money that was wasted in this House on speeches about the Gaeltacht and all the parliamentary time and effort put into them was put into a fund, there would be more industries in the Gaeltacht.
This Government comes into office now with a tremendous wave of confidence behind it, with peace and harmony throughout the land. It is going to have a long period of the office and I suggest to the Minister that, for so long as he remains responsible for this office, he will have a period in which to plan and produce something concrete, something which will integrate and co-ordinate development on the fishing side and on the afforestation side, something that will integrate various types of drainage and land rehabilitation schemes to form a co-ordinated pattern, and at the same time plan the type of industry that is practical in the circumstances of the locality and in relation to the availability of raw material.
Even though there may be no immediate solution this year or next, I am convinced that, if there is an integration of effort, we can see within the foreseeable future built up in the Gaeltacht areas the raw material to supply canning plants for the production of certain types of tinned fish which are imported at the moment in substantial quantities. We can see, if the success of the pilot scheme in Killybegs is any indication, the development of further meal-processing plants. As year succeeds year, apart from the employment that afforestation itself could give in these areas, we can envisage the availability from these forests in due course of the raw material to enable box-making to be carried on in the Gaeltacht and ultimately, le cúnamh Dé, wood-pulping to be carried on there. These are all practical things that can be done if, instead of getting up here and talking cod, we get down to the job of formulating the plans which step by step will make their realisation possible.
We are inclined to be guided when dealing with this problem rather by expediency than by any other method. There is no doubt but that if we really got down to the facts it is true to say that there are no people in the country more worthy of our immediate consideration and our best consideration than those to be found in the Gaeltacht and in the fastnesses of the West of Ireland and the south west of Cork and Kerry. They themselves, in their struggle for existence over the years, have produced in their own environment, all the best elements in this country in leadership, in the sense of political science or business. I cannot understand, and I never could, why when we talk about the money that we are pouring into worthwhile schemes like the E.S.B., Bord na Móna and various other huge national projects that somebody had not at some time the courage to conceive the raising of an immense amount of money, not on current revenue but on the basis of a national loan if necessary, for the purpose of dealing with all these projects.
I cannot understand why we have not got down to the question of co-ordinating all the schemes that we have tried, many of which have failed. They failed because they were isolated and were not co-ordinated. There was no composite plan. I believe myself, even though there has been much criticism of some of the schemes that we tried— and I believe they were tried in a bona fide way—that if somebody had got down originally to plan and conceive their development on an integrated basis, it would have been possible to develop all these schemes, whether they were small cottage industries, glasshouses, the tomato industry or any other type of industry in the agricultural field, or whether they were industries that were going to have their raw material from the sea. If there had been a co-ordinated plan, they would not have fallen by the wayside through lack of effort.
I want to say in a deliberate way to the Minister that we could not expect that he would have dusted his way through the archives of all the schemes that have been proposed in relation to the Gaeltacht. I do not think it would have been possible for him, even in a cursory way, charged as he is with responsibility for another Department, to have got to grips with some of the suggested schemes. I do say that if the Government do not do something quickly to give to the people of the Gaeltacht an earnest of the fact that they are really interested in their survival and in maintaining them at home within their own areas, that a worthwhile chance will have been lost because, in the main, these people are a proud, independent, self-respecting people who seek from the Government only justice.
They are entitled, as a right, to consideration. They are entitled, by virtue of the conditions under which they were forced into these fastnesses, to get special consideration from the Government. What I suggest to the Government is not to nibble at this problem, not to talk about putting a little sop in Ballyvourney, a little sop in Galway or a little sop somewhere in Donegal. What I ask the Government to do is to produce a blueprint for a plan that is going to enable the Gaeltacht to develop year by year, so that employment there will abound for those at home. I ask the Government to produce a blueprint that will give us, in relation to the sea, the forest and the produce of the land, the basis of the raw material for the industries that can be started in the Gaeltacht. If that is done, I believe that the problem can be mastered and that the people there will be enabled to live in their own way in the Gaeltacht areas. In addition, the language and the customs of our forebears will be maintained there, and the people themselves will be enabled to maintain a standard of comfort worthy of their traditions.
I believe if the Government produces such a blueprint they will be doing something that will be worthy of the vision and the courage that we expect from statesmen. It will, I hope, be worthy of the courage and the pluck that we expect from a young Minister such as the present Minister for Local Government. He himself has come from those people. He has come out of the Gaeltacht, with a full knowledge of the problems of the people there, and with full experience of the wide range of difficulties that are created within the Gaeltacht area. I would ask him to apply that wide experience to this problem, supported by the knowledge that he has gained in his professional and political capacity, and now in his ministerial capacity. We do not expect that from him this year, but we do expect that when he comes back next year to move this Estimate that he will be fortified with the basis of that blueprint for the improvement of an area to which he is as deeply attached as anybody in this House.
Nuair a cuireadh an Oifig seo ar bun, ceapadh Rúnaí Parlaiminte le comhar a dhéanamh idir na Ranna Stáit a bhfuil baint acu leis na ceantracha cúnga. Thug an Teachta Seán Ó Loingsigh, cuairt ar gach Gaeltacht is ar gach ceantar cúng. Bhí Coiste Idir-rannach faoina Chathaoirleacht. Do réir mo chuimhne, chruinnigh an coiste sin uair sa mhí nó mar sin. I bhfreagra a thug an tAire an lá cheana níor tháinig an coiste le chéile ach cheithre huaire le bliain anuas. Tá cosúlacht air sin go bhfuil obair na hoifige á ligean i léig; nó b'fhéidir go bhfuil an chuid is mó den obair choiste réitithe as an mbealach agus go bhfuil an bóthar glan anois amach romhainn chun tairbhe a bhaint as an obair sin. Is mór an trua a laghad faisnéise a thug an tAire dhúinn ag leagadh an Mheastacháin os comhair na Dála dhó. Bhíos ag súil le heolas maith ar imeachtaí an Choiste. Dúirt an Teachta Seán Ó Coileáin nach dtáinig tada de bharr na gcuairt a thug an Loingseach ar an nGaeltacht; ach is féidir a rá go dtáinig ceithre stáisiúin aibhlúise astu. Leagadh dualgaisí troma air, i.e., bhreithniú a dhéanamh ar shao geilleagrach agus cultúrtha na Gaeltachta agus na gceantar gcúng ina iomláine, agus gníomhú do réir an bhreithnithe sin. Níor bhféidir leis é sin a dhéanamh taobh istigh d'achar ghearr, ná níor bhféidir le haon duine.
Bíodh sin mar atá, thug sé cuairt ar gach Gaeltacht agus gach ceantar cúng agus chuir sé roinnt mhaith eolais le chéile. Tá mé ag smaoineadh gur thug sé an chuid is mó dá am, le linn é bheith ina Rúnaí Parlaiminte chun an obair sin a dhéanamh. Tá sé déanta anois agus ní gá don Aire é a dhéanamh arís. Dá mbeinn féin ag tabhairt meas ar thoradh na cuairte sin isé an rud a mholfainn i dtaobh na gceantar gcúng go léir—agus fioiríor nach bhfuil an Ghaelige beo sa chuid is mó de na ceantair sin—phiocfainn amach na ceisteanna atá ag déanamh an iomarca buartha do mhuintir na gceantar sin. Cad iad na ceisteanna iad sin? Tá a fhios sin ag an Aire chomh maith is tá agamsa agus chomh maith is tá ag aon Teachta a bhfuil cead cainte anso aige ar son muintir na gceantracha sin. Phiocfainn amach bóithre, céibheanna, straidhpeáil talún, tithe, crainnte agus portaigh. Im thuairimse do bheadh na rudaí sin mór go leor le haghaidh aon Rúnaí Parlaiminte a bheadh ag déanamh obair mhacánta idir na Ranna eagsúla. Ba mhór ar fad an clár é sin agus déarfainn go mbeadh sé oiriúnach le haghaidh thrí bliana ar a laghad agus suas go cúig bliana. Ansan, céard faoin thaobh eile den scéal—agus ba é an taobh seo an taobh a raibh daoine ag smaoineamh air nó a bhí a chur i gcéill gur raibh siad ag smaoineamh air agus isé sin an teanga a chur ar aghaidh sna ceantracha ina bhfuil sí beo fós. Pé tuairim a bheadh acu faoi bhordanna a chur ar bun nó Aireacht Speisialta a chur ar bun do na ceantracha sin nílim ar aon-intinn leis na daoine a cheapas go bhféadfadh aon bhord anois an méid ná leath an mhéid a dhéanamh a rinne Bord na gCeantar gCúng 60 bliain ó shoin. Pé tuairim atá ag duine, agus nílim i bhfábhar bord do na ceantracha go léir, dob fhéidir cás a dhéanamh le haghaidh bord nó coimisinéir nó dream éigin go mbeadh sé de dhualgas speisialta orthu féachaint chun na fíor-Ghaeltachta agus na rudaí a bhaineas léi.
Phiocfainn amach arís ceisteanna áirithe i dtaobh an dualgas a bheadh ar an dream beag sin, agus orthu san chuirifinn ceisteanna i dtaobh cultúir. Cad iad na ceisteanna cúltúir a chuirfinn de dhualgas orthu? Mar shampla, hallaí le haghaidh síamsaí, drámaíocht, léachtaí, agus eile d'eagrú iontú. Do chuirfinn de dhualgas orthu freisin scannáin i nGaeilge a sholáthar. Tá a fhios ag gach aon duine a bhfuil baint aige leis an nGaeltacht go bhfuil an oiread suime ag na daoine sna ceantracha sin i scannáin is atá ag muintir na gceantrach ina labhartar an Béarla. Tagann siad ina sluaite ar na busanna agus ar rothair chun na scannáin d'fheiscint. Taithníonn na scannáin go mór le muintir na Gaeltachta—díreach oiread is a thaithníos siad le muintir Bhaile Átha Cliath agus áiteacha eile. Dá bhrí sin, chuirfinn ceisteanna den sórt sin mar dhualgas orthu. Má ceaptar gur cheart go mbeadh údarás den tsórt sin ag dream speisialta nó ag coimisiún nó bord de shaghas éigin ní miste ceisteanna den tsórt sin a chur faoin gcúram.
Anois faoi na ceisteanna eile. Níl aon ghá le hairgead eile a sholáthar chun obair a chur ar siúl ar na bóithre, na céibheanna, ar straidhpeáil talún, ar chrainnte, agus eile. Tá a gcuid airgid faighte acu cheana ón Dáil agus a n-eagraíocht féin acu. Tá an oifig le haghaidh scéimeanna speisialta ann chun féachaint i ndiaidh na gcéibheanna sna ceantracha cúnga agus i ndiaidh na mbóithre sléibhe agus na mbóithre baile sna ceantracha sin. Chomh maith leis sin, tá seirbhísí na Gaeltachta ann chun mórán rudaí a dhéanamh do na háiteacha sin. Ní bheadh le déanamh leis sin ach an dream seo a spreagadh agus bhféidir údarás faoi leith nó cead faoi leith a thabhairt do Rúnaí Parlaiminte éigin nó do pé duine nó dream a bheadh i mbun na hoibre chun é a chur chun cinn chomh tapaidh agus a b'fheidir agus chun na ceisteanna sin go léir a réiteach atá le réiteach ingach ceann de na Gaeltachtaí sin.
An bhfuil aon mhíniú le tabhairt ag an Aire dhúinn faoin ár gcoiste idir-roinne a cuireadh ar bun agus ar a raibh an tUasal Seán O Loinsigh ina chathaoirleach. Thug an tAire freagra ar cheist anseo roimhe seo. Dúirt sé go raibh ceithre cruinnithe ann le bliain anuas. B'fhéidir nach bhfuil an t-eolas atá agamsa ró-chruinn faoi imeachta choiste sin nuair a bhí an tUasal Seán O Loinsigh uirthi ach ceapaim go raibh cruinniú den choiste sin uair sa choicíos nó ar a laghad uair sa mhí. Ní duine mise a mholas go gcaithfí an iomarca ama ar obair choiste ach is soiléir go bhfuil roinnt mhaith oibre le déanamh ar dtús nuair a cuirtear coiste den tsórt sin ar bun. An í an scéal go gceapann an Rialtas go mba chóir deireadh a chur le hobair an choiste sin, más fíor nach raibh ach ceithre cruinnithe den choiste sin ann le bliain.
Ní theastaíonn uaim tagairt arís do shean-scéal ach faoi cheann amháin a bhí idir an tAire agus mé fhéin, agus bhí an scéal sin ann suas le bliain ó shoin agus, dar ndóigh, roimhe sin. Ní féidir liom an seans a ligean tharm anois gan a thaisbeáint don Aire gur cuireadh an coiste ar bun le dlús a chur le hobair na Gaeltachta. Caithfidh an tAire féin a admháil go bhfuil rudaí áirithe sa bhfíor-Ghaeltacht san Iarthar ba chóir a chur ar aghaidh go tapaidh agus go ndearnadh a mhalairt ar fad. Níl aon leathscéal ag an Aire faoi sin.
Ní dóigh liom go mba chóir dom mórán a rá faoin iascach. Tiocfaidh an t-ábhar sin faoi Mheastacháin eile agus tá mé lántsásta go bhfuil clár oibre le haghaidh iascaigh sa tír seo atá maith go leor agus lán go leor chun an tionscal sin a chur ar aghaidh go maith. Tá mé sásta gur féidir an tionscal sin a spreagadh sa nGaeltacht ach amháin an t-am agus an t-airgead a bheith ann chun an obair a chur chun cinn. Tá sé foilsithe cheana féin go gcuirfear stáisiúin mhóra iascaigh ar bun agus go mbeidh cuid mhaith acu sa bhfíor-Ghaeltacht.
Ní maith liomsa anois tuille ama a chur amú leis, ach tá me an-diomuach i ngeall ar a laighead eolais a thug an an tAire duinn.
Mar adubhairt an Teachta Ó Coileáin nuair a bhí sé ag caint, beidh neart ama ag an Aire le pleanail. Tá faithchiós orm gurb shin é an tuairm a bhéas ag duine as comh gearr agus comh suarach is bhí an cainnt a rinne an tAire.
Níl agam ach cúpla focal a rá ar an Vota seo.
I must express my disappointment at the amount of overhead expenses in the running of this Department in relation to the amount involved. This is one Department, I would respectfully suggest to the Minister, on which the question of decentralisation should be considered, with a view to centring this Department of Gaeltacht Services where it belongs, in the West. This would expedite decisions on many little matters that are definitely delayed— Gaeltacht grants and so on.
In Galway City we depend quite a lot on the tourist industry, which is only part-time in its employment. We have quite a number of young men and young women who are idle for the rest of the year. What is needed in Galway is an industry that will provide all the year round employment. There is no use in talking about saving the Gaeltacht unless we do something about it in that way.
I would like to congratulate the Government on their having tenders invited for the fish handling station at Galway. This is certainly a move that will bear fruit. Another point I have mentioned in this House in the past is the question of afforestation in the West, one that will bear fruit as well. I would further like to congratulate the Department on the intention to provide fishing boats for the West. We have young men who have to emigrate or migrate annually who could be better employed in the fishing industry and I think this intention on the part of the Government is one that will be well accepted.
It was started before the change of Government.
We have not had free boats yet in the past.
Deputy Jack Lynch is the man who got that scheme out.
What amount of money?
£80,000 he allocated for it.
He did not allocate one penny for it.
Yes, he told me to prepare a scheme.
What he may have told the Deputy is a different matter. He did not allocate one penny for it—— not a penny.
It is time we cut out a lot of these pious schemes on paper. We have too much cant and humbug, even in these local elections, as to what they are going to do about emigration. The sun has gone down many times over Galway Bay since I first heard them talk about what they were going to do about emigration. I would like to know what Fianna Fáil have done to stem emigration. There is one word of warning I would like to issue, that is, "Nï h-é lá na gaoithe lá na scolb," with regard to doing something to meet the needs of the Gaeltacht.
I am very sorry that this Vote should be discussed at a time when the members of the Dáil are elsewhere. If it would be at all in order and if the Minister would be willing, I would suggest that progress be reported until we can have this most important question dealt with in the proper way and in the proper atmosphere.
Would the Deputy suggest where those Deputies are?
They are all out, evidently electioneering throughout the country.
Is it the Derby or the election?
The Deputy will agree with me that this is a very important matter from the national point of view.
Would it not be ridiculous to suggest that this House should adjourn a very important debate to enable Deputies to stump around the country during local elections?
They are on both sides, I suggest.
We had a fair enough muster of Deputies here.
I will have to go on, then, and deal with this matter.
You are not meeting next week, are you?
I asked that this should be adjourned as I think it should be dealt with as it is ordinarily dealt with, as one of the most important national matters with which this Dáil could be concerned. There is general agreement that the preservation of our language is vital and that every possible effort should be made to preserve it. There are two bases on which that possibility of preservation depends—one is the schools and the other is the preservation of the area in which the language is still spoken. As everybody knows, these areas have been contracting. There are only about seven parishes, the equivalent of some seven parishes, in which the language is still spoken as the native regular speech. These are invaluable as centres to which those who want to get a proper fluent knowledge of the language can go. If they disappear, then the difficulty of the task of reviving the language would be tremendously increased. It is a matter on which both sides of the House ought to be agreed, on which there ought to be no little Party political tricks being played.
I quite agree.
We have to try, all of us, to see that the language is preserved in those areas. If we can preserve it there, we can extend it to the adjoining areas where there is still some tradition in the speaking of the language. If we are to maintain these areas as Irish-speaking areas, we must keep the people there—and the people will not be there unless a means of living is provided for them. Therefore, we have to address ourselves to two things—first of all, to provide a living for the people which will maintain them in those areas; and, secondly, to see that whilst they are there they will be given every encouragement to continue speaking the language.
There are two aspects of it. If we could solve the economic aspect, I think we would be able to manage the other. The difficulties from the economic standpoint are tremendous. From the point of view of resources, they are probably the poorest areas in the country. In the past, the people there were able to support themselves by fishing, in the main, and they had little plots of land on which they grew food and in some of the areas they migrated and came back. Apparently that is changing now. Consequently, we have the position in which we are compelled to depend on the restoration of the fisheries and the utilisation of the land to the best advantage to which it can be used. Now, that means a survey of these areas. At one time I tried to get an idea as to the possible contour, the actual boundaries of these areas. I tried to get—I am sorry to say I did not get it satisfactorily—an idea as to the resources in each one of these areas.
The office of Parliamentary Secretary to the Government was created with the idea that the holder of that office would have access directly to the Government so that all the Departments of State which were in any way involved with the Gaeltacht could be contacted at the Government level. The areas over which he was to operate were of two kinds. There were, first of all, the non-Irish speaking areas, which, as some Deputy has already said this morning, are much wider in extent than the Gaeltacht areas proper. He had to deal with these areas. Generally, these congested areas had more resources and it was easier, therefore, to bring productive enterprises to these areas than it was to the Gaeltacht proper. Consequently, I urged upon him that he should divide his section into two parts, one exclusively concerned with the Irish speaking Gaeltacht areas and the other concerned with those outside.
During the last general election we were led to believe that it was the intention of this Government, if returned to office, to set up a special Ministry to deal with this problem. I, for one, did not at any time say I was in favour of that because I believed that the other was a better method: in the past there was somebody definitely responsible to the Government as a whole for work in that area. I do not know who is responsible now. Is the present Minister accepting responsibility for this task, or is he not? Is it the Parliamentary Secretary who has been appointed to the Government who is responsible? I do not know. But we would like to have that responsibility fixed so that when questions crop up in relation to the Gaeltacht we will know where responsibility lies. I must admit I am more interested in the Gaeltacht proper than in the so-called congested areas and we want to know who is responsible just as we want to know what arrangements are being made to do what Deputy S. Collins talked about this morning, namely, to integrate or co-ordinate effort in these particular areas. These areas are limited in extent and I believe that the best way to bring about that essential integration and co-ordination is by having either a Minister or a Parliamentary Secretary with a special section dealing with that area so that that special section will be able to get in touch with the various Government Departments and ensure that everything that these Departments can do in order to develop the resources of that area will be done.
If I were in charge and had full power I would have such a section. I would have a representative of that section, a Government agent, responsible to the Parliamentary Secretary, in each of these seven areas. I would have that agent assisted by a local committee so that the needs of each particular area could be properly represented to him and he, in turn, understanding them, could report to the Parliamentary Secretary. If, after survey, the area showed any promise of providing employment through the medium of afforestation, then the Forestry Branch could be contacted and steps to acquire the necessary land could be taken in order to establish a forestry unit in that particular area.
When talking about forestry and afforestation, we must always remember a matter that was raised here to-day; it was mentioned in passing. If afforestation is to be properly carried out one must provide continuous employment for the people engaged in forestry. If there is an area of 600 acres one cannot plant all that 600 acres at once because, if one does that, there is first a feast and later a famine. There will be employment while the planting is taking place and there will be nothing, or very little, until the thinning begins. If the work is done systematically and only a certain portion is planted every year, by the time the whole 600 acres are planted the thinnings will be coming in to keep the people employed in that work fully occupied. In that way one will provide continuous employment.
Now, in so far as afforestation is concerned there is the primary question of acquiring the land. I agree that what are described as legal difficulties should not be allowed to stand in the way. We can always deal with these, and deal with them justly, here in this House. The nation's interest as a whole is involved in this matter and if it is necessary to take land which is not being utilised in the way in which it ought to be utilised for the common good steps should be taken to acquire it, always with the proviso, of course, that proper compensation is paid to those who are entitled to it.
If there is one place in which one would be entitled to acquire land compulsorily it is in the Gaeltacht area provided one is in a position to utilise that land in such a way as to render it more valuable to the nation and to the community in the area as against the way it is being used prior to acquisition. In my opinion one would be perfectly justified in legally compulsorily acquiring such land, paying full compensation to the owner, because it is not being used by him in the best interests of the particular community in the area or of the country as a whole.
I agree with those who say we ought not to allow legal difficulties, such as questions of title, to stand in the way. If money is involved the money can be put in trust for those who can prove title; difficulties of that sort in case of necessity ought not to be allowed to stand in the way.
I come now to fisheries. Deputy Bartley has said that a basis has been laid for the development of our fisheries which promises success. During the days of the old Sinn Féin movement I always believed that the fishing industry should be the second most important industry in the country because we are, after all, an island race. When we got into office I tried to find out what could be done. Unfortunately there were difficulties which I had not appreciated in the days when we were advocating that the resources of the country as a whole should be developed, and that one of our more important resources was the possibility of developing the fishing industry. Deputy Bartley has dealt with this problem and he has assured us that a plan has been drawn up which will enable our fisheries to be developed. We can hope, therefore, that there will be in our fisheries a source of potential employment for our people in the future, a source which has not been available to them in the past.
There is then the question of bogs and the utilisation of these bogs for the generating of electricity. That is being done at the present time. Let that process be developed to its fullest extent. Consider then the available land. There is arable land in these areas. What is the best use that can be made of that arable land? That is a question upon which I am not in a position to offer any sound opinion. Undoubtedly, the idea of using glass to get the necessary energy for growth was a good idea in the growing of tomatoes. If it is thought that tomatoes could be grown and if the use of glass could make up for the poor quality of the soil, then that should be done.
On the question of industries, Deputy Collins was, of course, right. If we can get industries subsidiary to fishing, if we can get industries for which the sea would provide us with raw materials, undoubtedly anything that could be done in that direction would be helpful and we should try to have the position surveyed and see what can be done. Mere talk of integration and all the rest of it is not sufficient; we must get down to the problem and see what can be developed. I do not know what the subsidiaries are; I know we used to have kelp and carrageen and industries like that. It may be possible to develop seaweed industries, but all these industries are of the type that would help to keep our people in the Gaeltacht areas.
Are there any other industries which we can bring there? Can we bring any large-scale industries to these areas? From the time we got into office, wherever I was able to press I did press that we should do our best to get the larger industries, not in the neighbourhood of Dublin but elsewhere, but the trouble is that if we are to have private industries privately controlled, those who wish to establish the industry will claim that they have the right to say where it should be. If you protect these industries you may be able to put pressure on them to go elsewhere, but you cannot put pressure on them to go to a place if they are convinced that it would be an uneconomic site for them.
There was a time when there were certain attractions in rural areas for industries, when the labour costs were not uniform throughout the country, when there were different rates for country areas and for the city, but that day is gone and therefore the attractions of cheaper labour or more availability of labour in the country fail to bring private enterprise to these areas. Therefore, we have to depend for the most part on some State enterprises if we wish to have any large-scale industries established in these areas. Unless we are to be faced with constant subsidy for these industries we must try to have industries that are economic. The trouble then—apart from developing the natural resources that are in these areas—to get large-scale manufacturing industries has been very great.
Anything that the Government can do here to develop forestry, develop the utilisation of the bogs in these areas for electric power, to develop fisheries, anything that could be done in that way to provide a permanent living for the people will, of course, be supported by us. We believe it is in the national interest, apart from any other consideration, that these things should be done. We had hoped that the Government, which has had a considerable time now to review the matter, and if it was their intention, as they indicated in their election speeches, to do so, we hoped that by now at any rate some indication would have been given of the organisation and the plans which that organisation was to execute. As I say, with regard to the material resources which provide a way of living for the people, I do not know to what extent these will be sufficient to maintain the existing population in these areas or to attract them to remain there.
This question of emigration hits the Gaeltacht and the nation through the Gaeltacht more severely than it hits it in any other quarter. When in office we were being accused all the time of permitting emigration to continue. I am not going to go into emigration as such at the moment because I do not want to introduce any directly controversial matters in my speech here to-day if I can avoid it. I am anxious that we should all come together to co-operate and get some system or plan, as indicated by Deputy Collins, by which the Gaeltacht can be preserved. Deputy Mac Pharthaláin spoke of certain things that would give immediate employment—roads, boat-slips and quays and so on. These, of course, should also be done.
The one thing that worries those who are interested in the Gaeltacht because the Gaeltacht has the language is that developments very often if they are not carefully supervised may mean an improvement in the economic conditions but at the same time the ending of the speaking of the language. Tourism, for instance, is doubted by some; they wonder whether it would not have the effect, if you have tourist roads in these areas and bring people into these areas, while you are providing a livelihood for the people there you are also introducing the speaking of English to an extent far greater than in the past.
We must have a care in that particular matter. If industries are established, if you have factories established and the management is in the hands of people who speak only English, the example of those at the top percolates down, and you will find you will get a situation in which you have introduced a focus for the spreading of English in the area. It is for that reason that I for one would be anxious to see a Government agent in these areas and that it should be the definite policy of the Government that when any industries or factories are being started or any work being done in the Gaeltacht that those who are in charge of the work should themselves be able to speak the language. It may be difficult to get a combination of the required technical knowledge and at the same time a knowledge of the language. Sometimes no matter how hard one tries one cannot get the combination required.
There are two things that can be done in that case, it seems to me. One is, if you get a person who knows the language who can be trained, you can get them trained. If you cannot do that, if you must get the work under way and if you cannot afford the time, the next best thing is to have understudies, so to speak, to the person who is immediately in charge, and see that there would be an immediate assistant who ultimately would replace the person in charge and who would be the means of transmitting to the various employees the orders and directions and so on of the person who is actually in charge of the work.
I know it is not easy to do things in that way, but we have a desperate case and it may be necessary to use measures that under other circumstances would not be satisfactory in order to deal with it. The person on the spot, the Government agent, would be able to report to the secretary what was happening. He would be able to say: "Very well, here is the thing that ought to be done", and bring it to the attention of the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government who is in charge, so that there would be co-ordination. If, for instance, it should happen that there are Guards in the area who do not speak Irish and who are continually speaking English, that should be reported to the Minister for Justice so that he might be able to deal with the case through the commissioner.
Does the Deputy really seriously suggest that Guards still speak Irish in the Gaeltacht areas?
That they do?
They do, yes, in the Gaeltacht areas. What does the Minister mean by "Gaeltacht"?
I mean in the Irish-speaking areas.
They should.
B'fhéidir ná deinid i Dún na nGall. Deinid in áiteanna éigin.
Is fada an lá ó stop siad i Dún na nGall.
Ni'l fhios agam. Sin é an pointe.
They do speak Irish, but if spoken to in English they will answer in English.
That is the point and that is the trouble all the time. One of the troubles about the language is that in an area where the language is ordinarily used everybody uses it naturally; there is no trouble; but, if somebody comes in who speaks English to them, then, of course, they reply in English. I think the Government would be justified in giving a considerable bonus, if necessary, so that those who would be there would speak Irish. If possible I would try to have a circulation of Guards in those Gaeltacht areas because it has been said that Guards and Government officials do not care to be sent to the Gaeltacht because it is remote and so on. If we have any real intention to try to do our best to save the language, we should see to it that we provide for those areas officials who can do their work with the people in Irish. I understood that that was common ground.
If the local agent finds that they are not doing so, it would be his business to report them. It would be his business to meet the Guards from time to time to encourage them, as it would be his duty to meet any other Government officials. He would be the person who would be the immediate eye of the State in regard to those areas. It would not be so very expensive but it would, in my opinion, be effective provided, of course, all the time, that the local people co-operated. To try to secure that co-operation, I think he should be helped by a local group, some local council. Each of these areas is not extensive. You would have to give the local agent a small office. A small personnel would be sufficient.
In addition to that, in planning on the economic side and on the cultural side, it would be desirable to see, as Deputy Mac Pharthaláin pointed out, that there would be halls in these areas. In some of them there are halls. These halls would be little social centres where cultural activities in the language could be carried on.
In my opinion there is a line on which we can proceed. If we failed in that, at least we would be able to say we had done our best but there has been no effort, as far as I can see, on the part of the Government since they came into office to try to work out any particular scheme. We were engaged in one, at any rate. There may have been many defects which would show themselves up in practice. One was that you did not have these local agents. Another was that there was probably more attention being paid to the other parts of the congested areas than to the Gaeltacht proper.
Let me take a special case. As I have said, the resources of these areas are limited and it is necessary to take advantage of any possibility that exists of using whatever resources are there. We had all great hopes that Min Fhéir, Teoranta, would develop. Our information was that there was a big market, an extensive market, for this product.
Where?
Outside.
If the Minister will just wait, I am saying that our information was that there was a market for that, that there was a market for it here or away.
Where?
That there was a market for it. That may be true or it may not be true, but our information was that there was and our information was that this work could be carried on profitably. If that is so, it is a shame to stop it. I say, if it is so, it would be a shame to stop it.
If you want, as was pointed out here yesterday or when the question arose before, to have experiments carried out as regards the growing of trees in some of these areas or the reclamation of land for agricultural purposes, there is sufficient land near it to enable this to go on at the same time without stopping this enterprise. We have no information which will enable us to decide whether the three or four gentlemen who came from the different Departments, civil servants, made a report which was convincing or not. If there is a convincing case, let us have the figures, let us have the facts. That is not a question of publishing a departmental report. The report is there for the Government. Whichever Minister is in charge can come along and give us the case and give us the facts and figures with regard to it.
On the one hand, the Minister for Industry and Commerce tells us that there is no market. On the other hand, we were assured that there was. I do not say: "who is telling the truth?" because both may be giving the information that they have got but we want to know where the actual truth lies. In other words, is it a fact that this is altogether uneconomic, that there is no market for it, or is it simply that a report has been given by three gentlemen who have their own views about things?
We have a wider responsibility here than these three gentlemen have. It is we who have to decide. It is we who have to say whether this is to continue or not, and we want to know what are the basic facts as regards the economics of the matter.
We talk of subsidies in other directions. My recollection of Erris is of a vast area along there in which at one time there was a very big population and which was gradually becoming denuded. I am sorry that the Minister was not prepared to meet me on the matter. I think that this is a matter which deserves the attention of everybody here who is serious about the restoration of the language, and I think it is a pity that it should be disposed of on a day when we have many people absent who are intensely interested in this question. It is admittedly a difficult one. Why could we not all combine, put our heads together and see what is the best? This idea of using a board——
Might I interrupt the Deputy? I understood that this debate was fixed to meet the convenience of the Opposition and in order that Deputy Lynch might attend. Great trouble was taken in order to arrange for this debate this morning at the Deputy's request.
Not at my request. I was not aware of that. Had I been made aware of the fact I would have urged that this debate would not continue at this time.
Perhaps the Leader of the Opposition would address his rebuke to his own chief Whip and not to the Government?
Whoever has made the mistake——
It is not mistake.
There is a mistake. It is a mistake to discuss this important matter when there are only a few people available to discuss it.
It was your mistake.
I said whoever made the mistake.
It was yours. That is all.
You asked.
I did not ask.
Excuse me, you did ask
Excuse me, I did not ask.
I understand that your Whip sitting behind you approached our chief Whip in your name.
That may be true but I say I was not aware. I do not mind saying that, perhaps, I was at fault in not making sure of that. It is a mistake and we can remedy that mistake. There is not so much difficulty about it. There ought not to be so much difficulty about reporting progress until we would have a fairly full house to discuss this matter.
They are more interested in the local elections than they are in the Irish language.
How long is the Deputy in the House? Five minutes. There was nobody belonging to his Party here all the morning.
That is not correct.
I am doing my job for the people I represent.
At any rate, the question we are discussing is of tremendous importance. This question of a board was spoken of. Bodies outside that were interested in the language have been suggesting that a board should be set up like the old Congested Districts Board. I think they are completely mistaken. They do not realise how different the circumstances are in this case from the circumstances that prevailed in those days, but if the Government thought that was the best way and set up a board and gave it a certain amount of authority we would be prepared to see the experiment carried out. I myself think it is unlikely that the Government would adopt that. It was one thing to do it when the Central Government was over in Westminster but it is quite a different thing to do it and give the full powers when the Government is here.
Things that were done in the old days were done because they could be done almost arbitrarily. Those who were on the board did the things they wanted to do in the interest of the community and they were able to do them almost arbitrarily. You cannot do that to-day. Everything that is done is naturally brought up here for discussion and you have difficulties in the way of any board operating like that to-day that you did not have formerly at all. They would have to be superior to a number of Departments and the right thing in my opinion to do is to get each of the Departments connected with any work to do it. For instance, if it is work in connection with forestry the Forestry Department should do it and if it is fisheries you should get the Fishery Department to do it. The Parliamentary Secretary should bring any matters to the notice of the Government and there should be somebody to see that the fundamental things we aim at in the preservation of the Gaeltacht are not lost sight of.
It seemed to me that the arrangement that was begun only wanted to be slightly developed to be as satisfactory as any that could be devised but the Government have now the responsibility and we would expect to get from the Minister for Local Government, if he is going to be responsible for this, some idea of what the intentions, the attitude or feeling of the Government were about this problem as a whole.
I do not think that there is anything more I can usefully say on this, except to say that, whoever is responsible— and in view of what has been said I must accept my responsibility—there has been a mistake but it can be remedied by the House here.
I should like to say a word on this. First of all, I do not think it is good enough for the Leader of the Opposition to disown in the House his own chief Whip. I understand—I want to be corrected if I am wrong—that the debate on this was specially fixed for this morning to meet the convenience of the Opposition who asked to have it fixed for this morning. Is that right or wrong?
Would the Deputy give way for a minute and I will explain?
Certainly.
Last week, I noticed that the Local Government debate was drawing to a close and the Minister for Local Government being responsible for the administration of Oifig na Gaeltachta agus na gCeantar gCúng, I thought it probable that this debate would follow immediately on the conclusion of the debate for the Department of Local Government. I, for personal reasons, could not possibly attend yesterday. I so informed my chief Whip whom I asked to communicate with the Whip on the other side and inform him of that and ask him, if possible, to delay this debate until to-day, Wednesday. At that particular time I was under the impression that the House would sit in the ordinary course from 3 o'clock onwards. I left Cork early this morning and was surprised to learn that the debate was, in fact, proceeding this morning because I had heard on the radio last night that the debate in regard to the Department of Defence Estimate was on. However, inasmuch as it suited my personal convenience and inasmuch as I made the request, I accept full responsibility for the fact that the debate is now proceeding and I accept entirely what Deputy Dillon said that it was to suit the convenience of the Opposition generally and me in particular.
I thank the Deputy. There may have been a misunderstanding. I think the position has been clarified and that there is no need for further comment on the matter.
Except I am not the chief Whip.
I thought the Deputy was.
Of the Opposition?
Who is?
The big chief.
Gabh mo leith-scéal. Enough has been said and I do not want to be drawn into observations about Poo Bah and so forth.
The Chief Whip is Deputy Boland.
I am 23 years in this House and I never knew that until now. I always regarded Deputy Ó Briain as the responsible official. However, we live and learn.
I listened to what the Leader of the Opposition was saying to-day on this subject and I find myself in sympathy with almost all he had to say in respect of our duty and privilege of doing everything that is in our power to assist the Gaeltacht and particularly the Fíor-Ghaeltacht but I would remind the Leader of the Opposition that that is not a new view on this side of the House.
I think he will remember that, when I came into office in 1948, I found the shipyard at Downings had been closed down. I opened it again and I opened it for the very reasons to which the Leader of the Opposition referred. I said that even though it might be possible to build boats more economically at Dublin or Arklow, Downings is the kind of place where it is hard to find employment for the people near their own home, that there was a good boat building tradition there and even though it is a small or relatively insignificant boat building yard an immense amount of valuable work of a highly skilled kind can be provided in a Gaeltacht area by keeping it open. I directed that the boatyard should be re-equipped and it is now building boats briskly and repairing boats continuously and excellent employment is being provided in that area.
I was next authorised by the Government in connection with the land rehabilitation project to formulate a special scheme for Connemara, to appoint an administrator of that scheme who would be resident in Galway. I acquired offices in Galway and appointed a high officer in the public service, who was seconded to me from another Department on account of his special experience, to be administrator of the Connemara scheme, with a very large degree of autonomy, resident in Galway and headquartered there. His function in that area was to co-ordinate all the activities of local authorities and all Departments of State, to provide the maximum employment throughout the Connemara area of a kind which would produce results.
We formulated a scheme to revive the fishing industry along the Connemara coast, to provide special harbour facilities, to provide boats and, if necessary, to get boats manned by foreign sailors to train young fellows who wanted to equip themselves to go to sea on their own in due course along the Connemara coast. We planned to promote the production of fowl and pigs in the area and to provide marketing facilities in the remotest parts of Connemara so that people would not be dependent on casual buyers who might or might not turn up to buy their produce when it was ready for sale.
We envisaged the provision of halls where halls were necessary and we formulated under the land project a special scheme for Connemara where any person living in the Gaeltacht with a valuation of less than £10 could get the rocks removed from the surface of his land and such drainage and other clearances as might be necessary done for £1 per statute acre. What was the reaction of the Fianna Fáil Party to these proposals? Deputy Bartley came in here and held me up to derision as a kind of fool who was going down to Connemara to try to push the mountains into the sea.
The Minister said it himself.
I did not say it. I remember well when I formulated the Connemara scheme saying to my colleagues: "I warn you, I will be held up to derision for trying to do anything in Connemara. I will be told it is all eyewash and moonshine. I will be told I am trying to push mountains into the sea and to dig up rocks a thousand feet deep." But I was not. I was trying to do what I think most urgently needs to be done and what I am now going to do in Connemara. I went down myself to Connemara and I remember a man showing me a garden of half a rood. He told me that from the time he went out as a child with his father on the ridge, his father never went out with the spade that he did not bring the crowbar with him and when there was a shower of rain or when there was any stop to the work on the potato ridge or the oats, he would go back with the crowbar and start work to try to shift one or two rocks as his ability permitted. When he died a man of 80, one of his greatest boasts was the garden he made beside the house which was not half a rood. That man said to me: "Mr. Dillon, since your plan came into operation I have been able to do on five acres in four months what it took my father a lifetime to do on a rood."
Nevertheless, that whole scheme was held up to derision in this House. There is no doubt whatever that the kind of derision that was directed against me was quite effective because there is a mentality in this country that regards the Gaeltacht as a kind of abandoned desert in which it is a waste of money to do anything. I was born and reared too near it to believe that, but it is extremely difficult effectively to repel propaganda of that kind. Now all the machinery that I have moved into Connemara—and you cannot move rocks weighing two and three tons without machinery—was taken out of it and the people were told to go back to the crowbar, that it was good enough for them, and that if they would take to the crowbar they would be paid for the crowbar. Now that is going to stop. We are going to return to the task of clearing such land as they have of the rocks which make it impossible for them to work. But remember this, certain Fianna Fáil Deputies will shake their heads in approbation of that proposal now but their colleagues will start the same dirty propaganda as soon as I get to work again. I do not give a damn for them but I want to prophesy, because I have experienced it before, that the Deputies in the Fianna Fáil Party who are shaking their heads in affirmation of what I am now saying, will not say "hum" and "haw", when their colleagues are out on the hustings denouncing what we are doing.
I want to refer to the proposal in connection with grass meal. I think the Leader of the Opposition is quite mistaken in talking about the decision of three well-intentioned men. The decision to devote bogland in Bangor-Erris to forestry and agricultural purposes is not the decision of any three men. It is the decision of the Government. It is founded on the belief that grass meal produce in Bangor-Erris would have no market and would be a hopelessly uneconomic proposition from the day it was embarked upon. It is founded on the conviction that the alternative work which we intend to put in hand there will provide a growing volume of employment for the people resident in that area.
I think Deputy Lynch, who was in charge of this work under the previous Administration, told the House that, very shortly after the change of Government in 1951, anxious to do anything I could to contribute to the success of the immense task that he had been asked to undertake, I wrote to him. Perhaps he does not remember the letter now.
I do.
I wrote to him and said I thought he was going to be pressed into undertaking a project of growing grass for conversion into grass meal at Bangor-Erris, that I had the greatest apprehension the scheme was ill-conceived and I urged upon him before he allowed himself to be overborne and overpersuaded in this matter to take counsel with the Department of Agriculture where there was an abundance of information on these matters. I told him to weigh carefully the advice he got before he committed himself to the enterprise. I do not know how far the then Parliamentary Secretary acted on my advice but I do believe that if he had acted on it he did not get any encouragement from the officials in the Department of Agriculture to embark on that scheme. I would be very much interested to hear from the Deputy, when he comes to speak, what was the technical advice he got and whence he got it.
I have been unable to get any technical advice from any source which was calculated to encourage anybody to engage in the growing of grass at Bangor-Erris for conversion into grass meal but I have the strongest grounds for believing that on this blanket bog, by suitable methods of reclamation, we can not only create a considerable area of valuable agricultural land but we can discover a great deal of material that requires to be elucidated which would contribute to the reclamation of vast areas of hill grazing throughout the whole country, and I have the highest hopes that our investigations in that area will result in our being able to promote forestry on quite a large scale in that area and in similar areas.
It is important to remember this, that forestry, if it can be established, does not mean labour, draining and the planting of trees for a couple of years; it means permanent employment for generations and generations ahead and permanent employment of a character that will pay for itself and yield a profit and, mind you, it is all very well to be talking, and people get into the habit of talking, about subsidising this and subsidising that. They want to provide money for this and money for that.
Do not let us lose sight of this fundamental fact: this is a relatively poor country in the last analysis. All we have in this country are 12,000,000 acres of arable land and it is out of that we have got to get the means to do all the things we want to do. Instead of creating this vast tract of land in Bangor-Erris into a permanent burden on the economy of this country we should concentrate on trying to convert it into a profit earning area. I believe it can be done instead of putting an enormous sum into it which is going to be a perennial burden upon us. Which is the better?
Everybody will agree with you if you prove the one which is the better.
How are we to prove the one is the better except by demonstration?
Oh, well.
I was down on that bog yesterday.
Why not try a neighbouring area?
Because preliminary investigation has been made here and we have come to the conclusion that the grass meal project is misconceived.
If you have proved that nobody will find fault with you.
In the name of common sense why should any Government want to wind it up if they were convinced that the project was not misconceived?
That is what I want to know.
Unless we were all lunatics why should we try to touch it if it were a money making project? Is it not fantastic to try to discover some hidden, dark, concealed motive for something that is perfectly obvious? If this were a money making project why should we stop it?
That is what I want to know.
It would be insane for anyone to stop something that was calculated to produce wealth where wealth is not now being produced. If I say to the House I can find no source of technical advice anywhere prepared to forecast success for this project am I not entitled to ask the Leader of the Opposition where he got his advice that it was valuable? Am I not entitled to ask him where is the market that he says exists for the product of this plant?
I did not say it existed. I said my information was it did.
That is a very fine distinction.
Oh, no.
Perhaps I have a very blunt mind but the distinction between saying you know that a market exists and that your information is that the market exists is so very fine, as to elude me. But where is the market that the Leader of the Opposition has information about? Surely if somebody came to him and said this: "There is a market for this grass meal", the first question the Leader of the Opposition would ask is: "Where?" Or did the Leader of the Opposition ask his informant: "Say no more. You have said enough. Grow the grass, produce the meal but let nobody ask where is this mischief market". I could believe that conversation taking place all right but I think it is unlikely and I think it is rash. Surely the Leader of the Opposition asked his informant where the market was.
My understanding was that it was here and away. Both at home and abroad.
And I say that there is neither a market here nor away. I say that the costings adumbrated by the promoters of such a project make it quite inconceivable that it would be sold here or put on a foreign market without immense subsidies. In those circumstances is it not much better to develop this vast area or to attempt to develop it as a profit-earning enterprise as we believe can be done by the conversion of this blanket bog in one degree into agricultural land and in another into a suitable forestry area?
I am sorry the Leader of the Opposition was temporarily absent while I intended recalling to his mind the Connemara scheme which was in existence when he resumed office in 1951 and which he blew out of the water the moment he did resume office. I thought that was a very good scheme for the development of the Fíor-Ghaeltacht. It was designed as a pilot scheme so that when we got it organised we could extend it to other Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas. It was founded on the right principles and I am surprised that in the course of his observations the Leader of the Opposition did not tell us why he liquidated that scheme when he became responsible for Government in 1951.
I will be interested to hear now from Deputy Lynch, if he can tell us, where he got the technical advice which led him to believe that the growing of grass in Bangor-Erris for conversion into grass meal was a good proposition. I will be interested if he will tell me the nature of the advice as to the available markets for this grass meal, as to what were the costings, as to the availability of a foreign market for the product and what was the statistical information which led him to believe there would be a profitable domestic market.
I do not want to be unfair or unreasonable, and I would not say this in the absence of Deputy Lynch, but he will remember that at the time these schemes were being formulated, somebody proposed to him that there was a certain plant growing in the hedgerows of Ireland which, if but salvaged from its native habitat, and cultivated on wide acres, would provide a vast income for whomever would be fortunate enough to seize the golden opportunity.
I remember questioning the veracity of his technical advisers in that regard. I think the event subsequently demonstrated that the advice he had received in respect of this mystic plant was somewhat optimistic. I wonder did he bear that experience in mind when he evaluated the advice he was getting about the grass meal. I invite the Leader of the Opposition now to listen to his colleague, Deputy Lynch, expounding the figures and the facts on which he founded a decision to go forward with this grass meal proposition, and I think that, when he has heard them, he will agree with us that the scheme we have in mind will provide a much better opportunity for the Erris area than could ever be hoped for from the production of grass for conversion into grass meal.
Tá an oiread sin ráite cheana sa díospóireacht seo nach maith liomsa na rudaí céanna a rá ná an díospóireacht a choimeád rófhada; ach mar sin féin, tá cúpla rud ráite anois a chuireann d'fhiachaibh ormsa labhairt níos faide ná mar bhí im aigne ar dtúis a dhéanamh. Chomh fada agus a bhaineann leis an obair a deintear sa Tigh seo nó ar fud na Stát-Sheirbhíse ar son na Gaeltachta, ní dóigh liom gur cheist pholaitíochta chor ar bith í.
Fíor!
Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil éinne atá ina Theachta sa Tigh seo nach maith leis an Ghaeltacht a chur chun cinn, nach maith leis í a chur ar aghaidh chomh tapaidh agus is féidir linn é sin a dhéanamh, nó cabhrú leis, ach mar sin féin nuair a deineadh iarracht faoi leith, nuair a cuireadh an Rialtas deireannach i mbun cúrsaí na tíre sa bhlian 1951— b'fhéidir go raibh tosach déanta cheana ach b'shin tosach nó dearcadh nua ar a laghad—cheapamar an uair sin go leanfaí leis an scéim sin agus go leanfaí leis chomh tapaidh agus a b'fhéidir le haon Rialtas—bíodh sé ina Rialtas Fianna Fáileach nó ina Rialtas ChomhPháirtíthe. Mar sin féin, tá faitíos orainn nach bhfuil an Oifig, fé mar a chímid é, ag dul ar aghaidh, gan trácht ar leathnú, fé mar ba mhaith linn. Ceapann a lán daoine go bhfuil an Oifig beagnach marbh anois.
Tá a fhios ag an Aire, nuair a ceapadh mar Aire Rialtais Aitiúil é, go raibh an Oifig seo mar chúram air agus tá a fhios againn go léir gur thóg sé ar féin obair faoi leith a bhaineann le rialtas áitiúil, obair a bhí riachtanach, agus, nuair a thóg sé an obair sin, nár bhféidir leis an Aire an tsuim ba ghá a chur san Oifig seo. Sin é mo thuairim féin. Maraon leis sin, bhí sé ar cheann de na pointí ar ar bunaíodh an Rialtas seo go gcuirfí aireacht faoi leith i mbun na Gaeltachta.
Chomh fada agus a bhaineann sé le hOifig na Gaeltachta, tá a fhios ag an Aire leis go raibh cruinnithe coiste idir-roinne ann go raibh an coiste seo ag teacht le chéile go minic—gach coicíos nó gach trí seachtaine—agus go raibh ag freastal ar an gcoiste sin daoine ó gach Roinn sa Rialtas a raibh aon bhaint acu chor ar bith leis an nGaeltacht. Bhí daoine ann a raibh mion-eolas acu ar shaol na Gaeltachta, agus aon cheist nó aon tagra a cuireadh faoi bhráid an choiste sin, bhí daoine ann a raibh eolas speisialta acu chun an cheist sin a phlé agus a léiriú do na baill eile agus domsa mar Chathaoirleach ar an gCoiste sin.
Os rud é go raibh an coiste ag teacht le chéile chomh minic sin—fé mar adúras, gach coicíos nó gach trí seachtaine—bhí a fhios againn ar a laghad cad iad na ceisteanna agus na deacrachtaí eile a bhí os comhair na ndaoine, agus rinneamar heart chun na ceisteanna nó na deacrachtaí sin a leigheas chomh maith agus a b'fhéidir linn. Fé mar a freagraíodh lá nó dhó ó shoin i gCeist Pharlaiminte, is léir anois nár tháinig an coiste sin le chéile ach ceithre uaire ar fad i rith na bliana seo caite. Is dóigh liom gur botún mór é sin, mar ní féidir na hoifigigh atá san Oifig gach ceist a bheith faoina mbráid acu agus a bheith léirithe dhóibh chomh mion agus ba cheart an cheist sin a bheith léirithe, mar is trí dhíospóireacht ag cruinnithe coiste mar sin is féidir gach dearcadh agus eolas gach faidhbe d'fháil agus is ar an gcuma sin is féidir na deacrachtaí a scrúdú agus b'fhéidir a leigheas.
Mar sin féin, níl an coiste ag teacht le chéile agus is dóigh liom féin gur mór an trua é. Chomh fada agus a bhaineann sé leis an Aireacht speisialta, ní dóigh liom go bhfuil aon rud faoi leith á dhéanamh ag an Rialtas faoin gceist seo. Deineadh mion-scrúdú ar an gceist ag an gCoiste atá luaite agam.
Tá an tuarascáil san oifig sin, is dóigh liom, agus is dócha go bhfuil sí léite ag an Aire. Is féidir leis a aigne féin agus a mheon fein a chur i bhfeidhm ar an tuarascáil sin agus tuarascáil uaidh féin a chur faoi bhráid an Rialtais. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil sé sin déanta fós. Toradh an scrúduithe a bhí ag an gcoiste ar an gceist seo ná go mba cheart Bord faoi leith nó Aireacht faoi leith a chur ar bun don Ghaeltacht. Cheapamar an uair sin ná beadh sé áiseach, agus go mbfhearr oifig den tsaghas a bhí bunaithe againn, chun ceist na teangan a chur chun cinn. Faoi mar adúras i dtosach, ní ceist pholaitíochta í sa ghnáth-shlí agus ba mhaith liom, chomh fada is atámid go léir anseo, go gcuirfimis polaitíocht as ár n-aigne.
Having explained my absence yesterday, I take it that it is not necessary for me to refer to it again, but I want to take this opportunity of apologising to Deputy de Valera for not acquainting him of it, as I know of his special interest in this problem. During my tenure of office as Parliamentary Secretary, there was no single problem confronting him or confronting the Gaeltacht that I did not discuss with him. It was a lapse on my part that I did not acquaint him of the fact that I would not be here yesterday, that I had asked our chief Whip to put the debate on to-day.
For my part, I may say that I do not as a rule interfere with the arrangements of the Order of Business. I thought it was the Government's duty to order business and that this was done by the Government.
It was done by arrangement.
This Government is always most accommodating to the Opposition.
I think each Government is.
The Opposition is accommodating to us as well. Let us be quite fair.
The same applies on both sides. The main contribution by Deputy Dillon concerned the grass meal scheme in Bangor-Erris. I have no intention now of going through the facts and figures—for one thing I have not them available to me. The Minister for Agriculture, and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Dillon and Deputy Sweetman, when they were on this side of the House took a very keen interest and an active part in the debate during the course of the passage of the Grass Meal Bill. So far as I had it in my power, I gave them the figures concerning the capital outlay, the prices to be expected for grass meal and the possibility of markets.
As Deputy de Valera said, our information was that there were markets available, particularly in England, for this grass meal, that demands and requests had been made to producers of grass meal in this country for all that they could produce for export. The costings, as given to me and as I placed them before the Government, were such as to convince me, and ultimately I convinced the Government, that the scheme would be a profitable one if it worked out as we intended.
I want to stress, and I think it is important, that the ultimate object of the Grass Meal Act and of Min-Fhéir Teoranta was not primarily the production of grass meal for commercial purposes. The experiments carried out at Gowla bog by Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann largely influenced the decision to set up Min-Fhéir Teoranta. I myself —untrained as I am in agriculture— was very much impressed with what I saw at Gowla when I visited the place. I saw land which, I was told, was nothing but marsh some 12 months previously, able to grow grass in profusion, greener and longer grass than I ever saw growing in any part of the country. I was told that that grass was ideal for the production of grass meal, that its protein content was sufficiently high to make sure that the grass meal produced from it would of itself be a most valuable animal food and would be most beneficial as a constituent part of feeding rations.
The draining of the bog in Bangor-Erris was to be done in the same manner as was done in Gowla. There were to be wide trench drains and cross sections of more drains and cuttings of the trench drains were to be dried off for fuel purposes and so would largely help to defray the cost of cutting the trench drains. I forget if these terms are right, but they convey what I mean. The aim was the bringing of such land into good heart for agricultural purposes, I was informed and still believe and have heard nothing to the contrary. In order to bring that land into good heart, it was essential, I was told, for some period at least to grow grass, subsequent to which root crops could be sown.
As well as that, I was told that some of those plants which are used for medicinal and other industrial and commercial purposes could be grown successfully on such land. I was told— and again I have no reason to believe to the contrary—that the virus which attacks these plants and prevents their successful growth, not only in any other part of this country but in many parts of Europe, was, by virtue of the location of our western bogs, unable to penetrate the vast expanse between the United States and this country. Therefore this virus was practically non-existent there and for that reason it was envisaged that such plants could be grown successfully on a commercial basis.
There is, in fact, on much better land I admit, somewhere in North County Dublin, a firm growing such plants successfully, the market for many of them is unlimited and the return available to the promoters is most gratifying, sufficient to warrant the setting up of a small company of itself. The ultimate object was the winning back of this land, not only for agricultural purposes but for reafforestation. I have little doubt, and I am sure it is a common case, that such could be done. The announcement from the Government in the past week or so indicates that the Department of Agriculture and the Forestry Division of the Department of Lands are going to cooperate in doing exactly what Min-Fhéir Teoranta intended to do.
The Leader of the Opposition has been denouncing us for having sabotaged the whole thing.
I asked for information which I have not got and which has not been given by the Government or any speaker from the Government side.
The Leader of the Opposition has asked if it can be shown and demonstrated that the abandonment of Min-Fhéir Teoranta and the setting up of this new inter-departmental authority, or whatever it is to be called, is a better scheme and he would like to be told the details and what influenced the decision. We have not been given any idea of the position yet. At all events, I do not think anyone will disagree— and, without trying to cause any reflection on our institution of the Civil Service, I am convinced of it—that a board such as Min-Fhéir Teoranta, with that manoeuvrability and flexibility which is essential in schemes such as this, would be a far better agent to produce the desired results—results that both Government and Opposition want in respect of this land.
I think it has been proved in this country over and over again, particularly with regard to the better known public boards, what such institutions can do because they have that extra degree of flexibility. They have a degree of independence of movement that Government Departments, no matter how desirous they might be of getting on with the job, have not. They have that advantage over Government Departments and I do not think anybody can gainsay it.
At the risk of wearying the House, I want to read an article which appeared in the Mayo News of Saturday, 7th May, 1955, concerning this bog in Bangor-Erris and its development by Min-Fhéir Teoranta. The article is headed: “In Glenamoy Theory Is Being Put Into Practice. Soon Mayo may have 300,000 acres more of arable land.” The article is a Mayo News special and here is a quotation from it:
"The pessimist will have little interest in this article. It is written for those who see a future for Ireland; who accept that there is almost boundless scope for development and that it can be achieved by Irish people working in co-ordinated effort. It is unhappily true that we have a long way to go before the benefits of co-ordination and cooperation are fully appreciated.
Had we never had 700 years of foreign subjection the problems of Ireland, in keeping abreast with modern progress, would still be great. To-day—with only 30 years of freedom—we are fighting that dual handicap. And the fight is being made more difficult by apathy. It is reflected in the attitude of many of us to the best efforts of Governments; in the way we see Ireland through anything but Irish eyes; in our suspicion and our cynicism at the efforts of organisations and individuals motivated by ideals.
Romantic Ireland may be dead and gone, but if we put faith in the future in the grave with it, then, truly will Ireland itself be dead and gone. We will have lost our birthright in the fog of apathy and will have failed, at a vital hour, to ensure for posterity the Ireland visualised by Tone, Emmet and Pearse."
If Deputy Lynch does not want to read out all of the article, I think we would all agree to his putting it in the Official Report.
That is rather a dangerous precedent.
Very well.
The Chair thinks it is a very long article to read out.
I will read the more relevant portions of it, then.
The reason I asked the Chair to reconsider the question of putting the article into the Official Report is that we would finally have people coming into the House, producing long articles and then asking that they be put into the Official Report.
That is the American system.
The Chair is of the opinion that the reading of a long article such as that is not strictly in accordance with the Rules of Order. I would ask Deputy Lynch to confine himself to reading the more relevant parts of the article. I hope the whole article is not relevant.
The whole article is in the same strain. I will come to the conclusion of the article. Here is what it says:—
"Has this pioneering venture a reasonable chance of success?"
The article goes on to say that the manager there is certain that it has.
"Germany got the idea 80 years ago. It has been a success there, in Jutland and in France. And Mayo can use 300,000 more arable acres!"
"Men such as"——
here the name of the manager is mentioned
——"bring a breath of fresh air into the polluted present-day atmosphere of apathy, indecision and selfishness. Their progressive thought and their great, personal effort must not be stifled for political or any expediency. Rather, should these be aired by the machinery of Government, Press and radio.
"In that manner only can the masses be trained to realise that ‘honest labour wears a lovely face...' Our future lies that way and good leadership will be imperative on the journey."
I had hoped to be able to read out the whole of that article, but I accept the ruling of the Chair and the reason for it. It is no harm that the House should be informed of what some independent observer thought of this scheme as it was constituted up to the present. I only hope that the alteration that has now taken place as a result of a Government decision will not unduly deter the development of this area as we are assured it will not detract from the amount of employment given. I sincerely hope that, as a result of two big bodies such as the Department of Agriculture and the Forestry Division of the Department of Lands coming together, it will not unduly delay what was envisaged, namely, the putting of this land into a productive condition agriculturally and for the purpose of growing trees there. It is hoped that the steps now about to be taken will not have the effect of delaying that objective.
Work commenced yesterday.
Very little remains to be done from the point of view of development. I think the Minister will agree that the drainage was completed at 75 per cent. of the original estimate. Therefore, the really heavy work, from the capital point of view, had been done.
I think the Deputy is quite mistaken in that view.
The Minister will admit that the cutting of drains was, in itself, largely unproductive and that the bringing of that particular blanket bog into its present position was unproductive without more being done. Therefore, when this new scheme is assessed against the old one, let us hope that there will be recognition of the fact that though the original drainage was done it was unproductive work from the point of view of the work done by Min-Fhéir Teoranta up to the time of its being disbanded.
I come now to the problem of the Gaeltacht generally. When I was appointed Parliamentary Secretary to the Government, with special responsibility for Gaeltacht problems, I had no illusions of the magnitude of the task that faced me. Deputy Dillon wrote to me, as immediate ex-Minister for Agriculture, making certain suggestions and offering help in any way he could. He suggested that I should take certain advice on the probability of a grass meal product being a success. As I told him many months ago, the advice the Department of Agriculture gave was not favourable and I admit it candidly. The experts from that Department did not look with any favour on the glasshouse scheme, and I suggest they did not look too favourably on the Minister's own special Connemara scheme, and probably never did. If he were to accept technical advice alone, the Minister would never have embarked on that Connemara scheme in 1948 or 1949.
Again, if he were to depend on that technical advice alone, I doubt if he would embark on it now. However, as the Minister said, he appointed an administrator who knew the West of Ireland well. That was the very man who was appointed by the succeeding Government to be in charge of Oifig na Gaeltachta because of his special knowledge of the Gaeltacht areas. As I have said, I had no illusions about the magnitude of the task before me. As a preliminary step—being a Deputy from a city area with some little knowledge of the Gaeltacht, but not such a sufficient knowledge as to be able to tackle the job with which I was charged in a proper manner—I decided to go quietly around the Gaeltacht areas and visit as many of the places as possible or meet as many of the people as I could and talk to them about their particular problems.
I started by advising, privately, the Deputies and Senators of each Party. Unfortunately, the numbers of deputations that each Deputy and each Senator asked me to meet on the occasion of some of these visits were such that the visits turned out to be large public meetings in public halls, a thing that I did not want at all. Subsequently, I went to other parts of the country and met small groups of influential people who had any reasonable suggestion to make, and I discussed the problem with them. I have been told that Deputy S. Collins suggested, before I came into the House, that my visits in that respect were nothing but hot air. The Deputy may have interpreted them as such, but my intention was far from that. I tried to give these visits as little publicity as possible. I tried, in the best manner I could, to go to the scene of operations, meet the people concerned and discuss their problems with them and help in their solution.
The result of my preliminary survey helped me to make up my mind on this, that the expansion of the Gaeltacht, and of the contiguous areas, had to be based on some basic premise made to fit in with the national fabric generally. I decided that there were six or seven main heads under which I could start to operate. I think that is the basis on which anybody approaching this problem would operate, and I think it is so fundamental that there can be no controversy about it. First of all, I decided that the provision of certain facilities and amenities was necessary, and in that I included parish halls, playing pitches where possible, rural electrification—to have it extended in so far as it could be— roads, housing, sewerage and water. Effective steps were taken to advance development along each of these lines.
The next thing was the development of the agricultural potential, together with land resettlement. I realised that the Gaeltacht areas, as defined in 1926, and forming as they do almost 50 per cent. of the national territory, comprised some of the worst land in the country. Therefore, a special effort had to be made to induce the people to use fertilisers, and to that end to make fertilisers cheaper and more easily available to them so that they could use the limited amount of arable land that they have. Land resettlement was one of the other problems, and it was speeded up in many respects.
The third heading was afforestation. While every effort was made to speed up afforestation in the Gaeltacht areas, and while every piece of land that was offered for the purpose was specially examined, at my request, by the officers of the Forestry Division, it was found that, in many cases, the land that was suggested as being available was found ultimately, on investigation, not to be available: that farmers who spoke about the importance of forestry and indicated that they might have some land available to sell to the Forestry Division often—more often than not—failed to make that land available when it was sought.
The fourth sub-heading was local industries to form part of the national decentralisation programme. In that respect, and as a result of the framing of a basic policy, the Undeveloped Areas Act was passed. Unfortunately, the Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas did not benefit as a result of that piece of legislation. Nevertheless, many other areas, the Breac-Ghaeltacht and areas on the fringe of it, are now enjoying industries that might never have gone to such areas were it not for the Undeveloped Areas Act.
I also decided that the fisheries should be an important special heading. We had a survey made of the entire coast. It was decided in principle by the Government to set up six or eight main fishery harbours, based strategically along the coast, and work was in train to that end when the change of Government took place.
How many of them would be in the Gaeltacht?
Killybegs was one, but of course that is already developed.
It is not in the Gaeltacht.
Well, it is near enough to Glencolumbkille. There was to be one in Connemara and one on the Kerry coast, and one as near as possible to the Waterford Gaeltacht. It was also decided to establish these major fishery harbours, and many small landing places were developed. The Government gave me authority to decide, personally, as chairman of the inter-departmental committee, on the merits of any scheme for the development or improvement of landing places suitable for fishery purposes, or for other amenities up to a value of £2,500. As a result of that decision, many minor marine works were carried out. On the whole the marine works programme was greatly speeded up.
I thought that tourism would play a very important part in the development of the Gaeltacht. I was mindful of the fact that the more the Fíor-Ghaeltacht was made accessible to outsiders whether these were Irish people who were not native speakers, or English people or other visitors, that there would be a danger to the preservation and maintenance of the language, the language as we like to hear it in the Gaeltacht—ón chliabhán. I went to the Government and persuaded them that it was a risk worth taking, because everywhere I had gone there was impressed on me the necessity for a proper development of the roads to open up areas of scenic beauty which hitherto were inaccessible to modern transport.
As a result, the Government decided, at my request, to make available for eight years a sum approximating to £500,000 a year for expenditure on the Gaeltacht roads. That expenditure was not confined to the Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas because one could not just expend money on the development of roads in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht and leave roads in the Breac-Ghaeltacht leading to them in a practically undeveloped state.
These were the main lines on which I was proceeding as Parliamentary Secretary to the Government responsible for the Gaeltacht areas, and these were the lines on which my office was proceeding also. I do not want to go into details as regards many things that were done. I have alluded to them in passing.
During all this time I and the Government were being pressed in regard to the establishment of a special board for the Gaeltacht areas whereupon, at the request of the Taoiseach, my interdepartmental committee, as it then was, took up the examination of this problem. That committee subsequently reported to the effect that, first, there seemed to be no inherent demand from the people of the Gaeltacht for such a board; secondly, that, as a result of the lack of an accurate and practical definition of what the Fíor-Ghaeltacht was, it would be impossible to define the bailiwick, so to speak, of the special board; and, thirdly, that since the abolition of the Congested Districts Board various Departments of State had undertaken many of the tasks of the former Congested Districts Board and there was possibly no Department of State in which there was not some executive function concerning life in the Gaeltacht; it would therefore be impossible and certainly impracticable to divest these Departments of the various functions they had in relation to the Gaeltacht areas.
The suggestion was made then that if such a board had certain moneys available without having to answer too closely to the comptroller and auditor-general or to ordinary public accounting, they would be in a position to carry out many things that were desirable in the Gaeltacht areas without being subjected to the strictures and the shackles of Civil Service control. Unfortunately, when the people who were pressing that case were asked for even the bones of a comprehensive scheme as to the manner in which that money would be expended, it must be said that they failed to put up a practical scheme almost in any one direction. Therefore, the report to the Taoiseach was to the effect that, while it appeared desirable that the administration of affairs in the Gaeltacht could be accelerated and possibly made more beneficial in many ways, under the existing order of administration, the establishment of a special board would not be the solution.
I think the establishment of a special Ministry would have many of the inherent defects that a special board would have. It would, for instance, be impossible to divest the Department of Social Welfare—it might not be impossible, but it would certainly be impracticable—of its administration in the Gaeltacht areas and vest that particular administration in a Minister for the Gaeltacht.
Now, that is only one aspect of the problem involved, but there are many ways in which such a board could help, given a specific function, and it was on that note when the last Government was coming towards an end that we approached the organisations who suggested the establishment of a Gaeltacht board; there were certain functions, largely collateral, that a competent board could undertake, possibly pursue and put into effect much better than any Government agency. Unfortunately, we did not have time to develop our approach along these lines before the change of Government, but nevertheless, there is a problem there.
We all know that the people of the Gaeltacht are an adaptable people in many walks of life and particularly in agricultural spheres of a specialised character. They have proven themselves to be as good, and in many cases better than people in other parts of the country used to certain agricultural pursuits. In relation to the growing of beet the men from the Mayo Gaeltacht have proved they can work more productively than men from other areas who are experienced in the growing of beet. In many other aspects they have proved that they are adaptable and capable of a productive effort which will give a good economic return in any task that is worth while.
Consider for a moment Gaeltarra Éireann: the commodities marketed by that body are produced almost entirely in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas by Irish-speaking people. I think it is accepted in the woollen and knitwear industry that Round Tower goods are equal to the best produced in any part of the world. There were certain difficulties with regard to design and finish, but these were largely overcome by the establishment of a finishing centre in one part of County Mayo.
I have my own views as to how Gaeltarra Éireann could be better expanded. I had not come to the point of approaching the Government as to whether or not the constitution of Gaeltacht Services should be changed in so far as the Gaeltacht industries were concerned; but I had a strong feeling, amounting almost to conviction, that the establishment of a special board for the industry section of Gaeltacht Services would be a better thing and would make for an expansion of employment in Gaeltacht areas and would, in general, make Gaeltarra Éireann a more efficient company. There were certain objections. Such a company would to a large extent, initially at least, have to be sponsored by the Government. Being then in open competition with other producers it would possibly be regarded with suspicion and might even raise a good deal of opposition from companies not subsidised by the Government. Nevertheless, that possibility is there and I hope it will be examined by the Minister if and when it comes to his notice.
There was, too, the difficulty with regard to the use of the Irish language in such factories. In particular that problem exists in relation to the technical key positions in such factories. In that respect, I insisted that a scheme of training be established by sending young people from the Gaeltacht to the large textile centres in England so that, when the time came, they would be capable of taking over the management and technical control of these Gaeltacht factories and be at the same time in a position to ensure as natives of the Gaeltacht that Irish would be used in so far as that was possible.
These are, broadly speaking, the reasons for the establishment of Oifig na Gaeltachta by the last Government and the principles upon which that particular office acted. It was, as I said at the outset, a big task, and I will candidly admit that the effectiveness of the office was limited by the fact that I was to a large extent a Parliamentary Secretary without executive functions. On making the first approach in that respect to the last Government they immediately, by making me Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands, provided me with certain executive authority. As well as that, I was given permission on any occasion to go to the Cabinet with any problem that I might have on hands, having first advised the Taoiseach, and having then prepared whatever submission I had for the Government through the appropriate Minister. Even if that Minister did not see eye-to-eye with the proposition, he was at least bound, being the Minister responsible for that aspect of administration, to place it before the Cabinet and give me an opportunity of arguing my case before the Government and enabling me to get the Government's decision on it. In many respects much good work was done as a result of it and I have only referred to some.
I hope that the impression that is now abroad, largely as a result of the office being tacked on to such a responsible Ministry as that of the Minister for Local Government, that it is moribund will be quickly dissipated. The Minister for Local Government when he took office undertook certain very heavy tasks and I cannot blame him if he was unable to give attention to Oifig na Gaeltachta, or as much attention as was necessary. He was selected to control that Office largely because he was almost a Fíor-Ghaeltacht man himself. He came from the town of Dungloe and practised there on the fringe of one of our best Gaeltacht areas. He had a knowledge of the problems of the people in the Rosses Gaeltacht which was as good if not better than most but nevertheless that reason alone was not sufficient to charge the Minister for Local Government with responsibility for Oifig na Gaeltachta agus na gCeantar gCúng.
I believe that the task is, first of all, sufficiently big and secondly, that the work is sufficiently important to require that one man in particular with some executive functions and with some direct approach, not only to the Government but to each Minister of it, should be put in charge of such an office and have nothing else to do. The Ministry of Local Government as at present constituted cannot do justice to such an office.
The Government has, as one of the major points in its programme, the establishment of a special Ministry for the Gaeltacht. I would like to know from the Minister, when he is replying, whether in fact that question was ever debated by the Government and if it was, whether the report that I have referred to which was submitted to the former Taoiseach has been placed before him or before the Government. I know it is available for him or for the Government if they wish it.
If, on the other hand, they wish to set up a special investigation as to the desirability of getting certain autonomy of administration for the Gaeltacht whether by a board or special Ministry, let them do so without delay, but for heaven's sake let the people of the Gaeltacht not have to say that for one reason or another they have been abandoned. I am not suggesting they are abandoned, but the fact that a departure was made by appointing a man who was a whole-time Minister and giving the Parliamentary Secretary responsibility for certain administration, and that the Minister could not possibly attend to the needs and demands of Oifig na Gaeltachta—to that extent the continuity of policy approach to the work and needs of the Gaeltacht has been interrupted.
I said at the start I did not think this was a political question; it is above politics. If, in one way or another by doing public works in the Gaeltacht such as the establishment of the four turf generating stations which I am glad to hear are coming along nicely, if some political advantage accrues to one side or another, be that as it may, but generally speaking the people of the Gaeltacht are of fixed political conviction and the establishment of schemes, be they small or grandiose, does not worry these people. Therefore, I think we can take it that no matter what is done by any Government it is done from an altruistic point of view and from the highest motives and is done with the same possibility as would arise in other areas of political advantage accruing. Then, for goodness sake, let us get on with the work of not only preserving the Gaeltacht and the language of the Gaeltacht but, if possible, of expanding it to its utmost limits.
Deputy Lynch was kind enough to say that I had taken an interest in the Bill under which Min-Fhéir Teoranta was set up when it was going through this House and it is precisely because of that interest that I took at that time and since, in regard to that project that I wish to intervene for a few minutes in this debate. I am not competent to speak on other aspects that affect this particular Vote which were referred to by Deputy de Valera and Deputy Lynch. The Minister for Local Government, who has charge of that office, is far more competent to speak on those aspects, but let me say this in passing in regard to a couple of aspects that were mentioned by Deputy Lynch and Deputy de Valera.
In regard to fisheries, I think that one of the troubles in regard to our fisheries — and I am not making this as a Party point at all — is that we have been inclined to dwell on the harbour facilities too much and to dwell too little on the fishery end of the industry. It would, I think, be better if we concentrated more on the actual fishing end of it and less on the necessity for bigger harbours, bearing in mind the harbours we already have which are, to a large extent, not used. I do not regard myself in any way competent to discuss that matter in any more detail. It is merely an opinion I picked up in speaking to other people whom I do regard as competent in it.
With regard to the grass meal project, I want it to be clearly understood that the decision is a Government decision. I do not know whether Deputy de Valera intentionally so suggested or not, but we want to make it perfectly clear it is our decision and we are not attempting to shelter behind any Civil Service view. We set up an inter-departmental committee for the purpose of getting information on foot of which we could, as a Government, take a decision and it is our decision, a decision taken by us because of the information that had been made available to us. I propose to give the House some information to enable the House and the people to judge exactly why we took that decision and to what extent we were justified in taking it.
I also want to stress that there was no question of taking the decision for any purpose of endeavouring to cut expenditure, no matter what expenditure was going to be incurred. It was not approached at all in that spirit.
So far as this Government is concerned, we are perfectly prepared to spend money on any capital scheme that we feel will bring useful results. I have made that clear beyond question as Minister for Finance and I want to repeat that that was not in any way an issue in this. We are prepared, for example, to extend drainage work. Only yesterday I had a file given to me on the Deal and Swilly rivers—
What rivers?
The Deal and Swilly rivers in Donegal. There may be a Deal in the Deputy's constituency as well, but this is the Donegal one on the edge of the Swilly and Foyle area, and I was only too glad to be able to allocate a sum of £187,000 for work there because I felt it would be useful work and that will be the basis on which we will judge all projects that come before us.
So far as this particular grass meal project is concerned, I think Deputy Lynch would agree with me when I say that we should consider it under three headings. The first would be the drainage and the cultivation of the bogland; the second, the availability of the market for the grass meal and the third the cost of the production of that grass meal for that market so available.
And the ultimate use of the land, surely.
I count that as the drainage and cultivation of the bogland. I will come on to that. So far as the drainage and cultivation of the bogland is concerned, I shall not suggest in any way that the project that was sponsored by Deputy Lynch was unsatisfactory. What in fact has been done is that there were 2,700 acres originally taken over by Min Fhéir from Bord na Móna and 1,700 acres of that was plough-drained; 540 acres were enclosed with sod fences but the only work done on the remaining 1,000 acres was preliminary work of opening out-falls. Let me assure Deputy Lynch, in reply to his specific query, that none of the money spent in respect of that work will in any way be wasted for the new project.
The drainage and cultivation of the bogland is a thing in which we would all be very interested indeed. This, of course, was visualised to affect a mere 2,700 acres. The amount of bog that there is in this country is very large indeed. There are about 3,000,000 acres. This type of bog is what is known as blanket or shallow bog. It exists principally in the West. There is some on the Wicklow Hills. But, in general, it is a climatic bog, shallow bog, that exists in that area and I think it is not unfair to say that it is mostly in Kerry, Connemara, Mayo and Donegal.
The reason I stress that is that if we can achieve, by the proof of experiment, something that will be worth while on blanket bog, as apart from basin bog, such as Gowla — a deep bog which has been formed in a water basin — if we can achieve something on blanket bog, then we will have achieved something that will affect four counties where effect is badly required. The extent of the blanket bogs in these areas is large.
One of the things that I think Deputy Lynch will remember I stressed when his Bill was going through the House was that I accepted that it was entirely desirable that we would do something in respect of those bogs but where he and I differed at that time was that I thought a grass meal project was not one that would give most employment and was not one that would be most successful.
I think the facts that I shall give to the House will show that that is so but, in saying that, I do not want in any way to decry the idea of doing something in regard to reclamation of blanket bogs, nor do I want to decry any drainage work that was done on this holding up to this. But, even supposing the grass meal project as such was a success, which I think I can prove to the House could not happen, it would have only been a success in respect of an entirely insignificant portion of our blanket bog whereas if the experiments we are carrying out are proved to be a success — and we believe they will be a success — then they will not merely be a success in Glenamoy but they will be a success on the whole of the blanket bog that exists similar to Glenamoy. I think that is the fundamental difference between our scheme and the scheme that was initiated by the Deputy.
If our scheme is a success — and we believe it will be — if at the end of five years it is proved that the experiments are successful, then they will point the way, not merely for Glenamoy but for blanket bog wherever it may exist in the western counties.
Let us take the grass meal scheme as such. As Deputy Lynch is aware and as, probably, the House is aware, the company was set up for the purpose of producing grass meal. In saying that I do not want in any way to detract from what Deputy Lynch said about the ultimate aim of the user. It was set up for the purpose of producing grass meal and provision was made in the Act by virtue of which advances could be made to the company for capital purposes but for no other purpose whatsoever. It was to be for capital purposes that the subvention was to come in and not in any degree of working subsidy. If, therefore, it was not possible for the works to operate on an economic basis then, under the terms of the Act as visualised by the previous Government, the scheme could not carry on.
Again, I think I can satisfy the House that it was not even the economics of the production of grass meal which caused the Government to take the decision which it did take, but that was to be the aim and that was to be the object of the money that was made available by vote from the House.
The House, of course, is already aware — we discussed it on that occasion; we need not go into it again now — of the manner in which it was proposed to reclaim the bog. As Deputy Lynch has said, quite correctly, they proposed to adopt the same system as at Gowla, that is to say, to go in straightaway after drainage rather than allow drainage to take place for some years and the bog to subside after that drainage. The latter way is not the way adopted at Gowla and is not intended at Glenamoy; it has, however, been the method adopted in most countries where they have gone in for bog reclamation.
We discussed that matter at some length on the setting up of the company and I do not think we need go into it now, except to this extent, that it is agreed by everybody that for grass meal to have the high protein content that is necessary and desirable it is essential that the grass would be cut as young grass and that it would be cut at exactly the right time. I think anybody who has experience of grass meal plants will agree that the quality of the product at the end depends entirely on cutting at the exact, correct moment. The difficulty in respect of bog that is only being drained, so to speak, as the project goes along is that you may not be able because of weather conditions to get in on the bog to cut it at exactly the right moment and, if you are not able to do so, the fibre content goes up and the protein content goes down and, in consequence, you will not get the quality of meal which is necessary. That is a risk that is there. Even on any mineral soil, where grass meal is being made, it is a risk. That it is a very considerably higher risk is natural enough, when the grass for the meal is being cut from the bog.
There is little difference between us as to the desirability of drainage and cultivation of our bogland, but when we come to the question of the market that is available for the grass meal, then there is a complete cleavage of opinion between the two sides of the Houses. Deputy Lynch, when introducing the Bill, said he believed there was a market there. I am quite certain that when he said that he believed it, but we have failed to find on the records of any Department any information that would justify us in that belief or which would enable us to see the basis upon which the Minister for Industry and Commerce of the day who introduced the Bill handled by Deputy Lynch, based his decision. In fact, all the information that is available to us shows that at that time the position was entirely different.
The best estimate that we can obtain of the annual demand at present for grass meal in our country is 6,500 tons. By an extension of compound feeding mixtures and utilising grass meal it might be got up to 8,500 tons — another 2,000 tons. That is the best estimate that anybody can give and it is made available to us by the people qualified to give such an estimate. The capacity of the existing plant without Glenamoy coming into the picture at all is 8,200 tons. Therefore, we are advised there were left, from the maximum possible home market, some 300 tons.
May I ask the Minister how is any expert to determine what the ultimate possible market is? Does it not depend on the price if the product is a marketable one?
Unfortunately, that is not the case, Deputy. If it was merely a question of price, then it would be an easy matter to expand, but it is a question of producing what we know as balanced rations and balanced use, having regard to the fibre content. The advice we have been given is that 8,500 tons, an excess of 2,000 tons on the existing annual demand of 6,500 tons, are the maximum that could be used. I can, if the Deputy wishes, give him some technical details on that, but I am sure he will accept my word that that is the estimate of the total market available given by a competent authority, regardless of price.
The Minister has not dealt with the outside.
I will come to that in a minute and I think the Deputy will find that I am going to deal with it quite fairly and objectively and, I hope, comprehensively. If I do not, I would welcome any query the Deputy would like to put to me when I have finished. That is the estimate of the maximum market, according to the best technical advice available to us. I think, regardless of whether we agree with Deputy Lynch or not, that the Department of Agriculture do not like bog reclamation, we must accept the view that the experts in the Department of Agriculture are the people best qualified to gauge the extent of the home market that will be available for this meal.
I cannot see where we could get people who would be better qualified to gauge the extent of the market for a product that is going to be used in agriculture. The estimate of the market that has been given to us is 8,500 tons as a maximum and 8,300 tons is the capacity of the existing concerns without Glenamoy entering the picture at all. It is clear, therefore, that the Glenamoy project would have to depend on something other than the home market for the sale of its products if the products were made.
The fact is that we are told there is no export market. The directors of Min-Fhéir Teoranta, told us that they were not considering in any shape or form an export market because they did not think they could develop such a market. We were, therefore, in the position that we were advised, on the one hand, that the existing plant covered the existing and possible future market in the homes sphere and, on the other hand, that there was no export sphere available to us. In those circumstances we did not see how it was going to be possible to dispose of the product of this factory.
It was clear to us that if we were to depend for the success of the Glenamoy experiment on the sale of grass meal, bearing in mind particularly, as I said already, that the Act provided that it was only for capital purposes there was to be an advance, then it is perfectly clear that the experiment as a grass meal experiment would have been a failure.
The Minister has ruled out exports on the grounds that the directors of Min-Fhéir Teoranta, were not contemplating export.
No, no — was not available.
Would that depend on price? My information was that there was a very great demand from English firms for grass meal from Ireland.
I will try to turn up the note I have on that but the information available to us is, to be quite candid—
I will accept that.
—exactly the reverse and the position was that they did not think they could so develop it. I think the exact words used were that they saw no prospect of securing an export market.
That covers the second point which I mentioned. But even leaving that aside and coming to the third point, I have available to me figures in regard to costings which, I think, having regard to the similarity, must have been prepared on the same basis as the costings that were prepared at the time Deputy Lynch came to this House. On the assumption that you could get two tons of grass meal to the acre, the cost of production would be somewhere about £33 per ton. Other estimates have been produced, based on a higher yield per acre. For example, if you could get two and a half tons per acre naturally your costings would go down.
I want to be perfectly objective and fair in this and let me say that the best advice available to us, not necessarily accepted by the directors of the company, is that an average of two tons per statute acre would be a very good average because of the difficulty of cutting at the appropriate time and getting into a recently drained bog. In fact, some suggestions have been made that even the estimate of two tons to the acre is high having regard to those difficulties.
So far as costs are concerned, unless the work was actually in progress it can obviously only be an estimate and nobody can speak with any positive view. But the real reason, as I say, why the Government took this decision was because all the advice available to us was that the home market was already saturated, that there was no export market, that there was no market in respect of baled dried grass or as cubes likely to be suitable or likely to be available, and that, in the circumstances, therefore, we were afraid that if the project was allowed to be developed purely on a grass meal basis it would immediately run into considerable difficulties and that it would be a failure.
While we came to that conclusion, we were determined to ensure that we were not going to deal with the matter merely on an assessment of the success or failure of grass meal as such. What we were interested in was the drainage, amelioration and reclamation of an area of blanket bog so as to ensure that such an area of blanket bog would act as a trial for the vast resources of blanket bog that there are in the western areas. I believe not merely that the alternative scheme we have produced will do that but I believe quite honestly and sincerely that it is an infinitely better scheme than the grass meal project, even if the grass meal project was going to be a success, which it was not, because that grass meal project would only have an effect in one area whereas this scheme that we are envisaging will, if successful, embrace not merely that area but a wide field in the four western counties I have already mentioned.
Let me remind the House that, so far as the previous inter-Party Government was concerned, this attempt we are making to turn bog into arable land is in line with the pattern that was followed from 1948 to 1951 when Deputy Dillon, Minister for Agriculture, then as now, started the land project in respect of land requiring to be done, perhaps slightly better land, continued with the Connemara project, in respect of the peculiar difficulties in Connemara about which he spoke to-day, then the hill-grazing experiment in Donegal, and now the bog agricultural experiment. We are not going into this like bulls into a china shop. We are going into it in the belief that it is an agricultural experiment which will provide vast resources for the future and which, if our experiments are successful, will be a pointer towards one of the bigger ways, both in agriculture and forestry, of improving substantially the western areas.
While the Minister for Agriculture was speaking I was called out on some business. I am not quite clear, therefore, whether he did develop in any detailed way what we propose to do in this region. As I mentioned a moment ago, there are 2,700 acres altogether that are involved. We propose that 500 of that 2,700 acres will be utilised by the Department of Agriculture for the five-year experiment. The remaining portion, 2,200 acres — and if it is necessary to round it off by any further additions it will be easy to obtain those additions from Bord na Móna — will be utilised by forestry for the other experiment.
I want to stress that so far as agricultural experiments are concerned, what we are going to do through the Department of Agriculture on that 500 acres will completely absorb all the labour content that is at present working in Glenamoy, that what we are going to do on the remaining 2,200 acres that the Forestry Division are taking over will provide employment in excess of the employment already at Glenamoy. Therefore, there need be no question of anybody being worried that any of the local employment will in any way suffer. Local employment will continue and as we progress it will, in fact, be increased.
In regard to the methods by which we are going to carry through our drainage framework, moisture studies to ascertain the effect on crops in that area, the ameliorarion of the peat into proper soil, the methods of cropping and the utilisation of crops, all these are things for which this area is ideal. The results of the experiments in Glenamoy will provide us with a basis not merely for the future for there, but for the future in other areas. I do not know whether Deputy Lynch has ever flown in an aeroplane over any part of that area. I have done so, but I do not know the area sufficiently to be able to identify the places accurately, but if one does fly over the West, one gets a picture of the little tongues of arable land going out into the bog, the little tongues of plots, obviously plots which have been reclaimed from the bogs. This is really an extension of the same principle, but an extension on a very much bigger scale. It is an extension on a scale that bears comparision to the modern machine versus the spade in other ways.
It is the same principle and I think the Deputies on the other side can rest completely assured that in so far as we are concerned we approached the grass meal project in a spirit of accepting as I have said, that, point number one, reclamation and use of hay, was desirable; and point number two, fair examination of the markets, and we found the possibilities of markets were not there. Having done that it was inevitable for us as part of our policy to revert to point number one and see how point number one could be most usefully employed — employed with a prospect for the future. Having done that we then came to the conclusion that here was a chance or an opportunity to go out and in a big way see what was going to be the future of blanket shallow bog. If the experiments by the Forestry Division are a success we can plant this expanse of bog. There has been some small experimental work done already but it is sufficient for us to be able to say that we can go on in a wider way. Deputy Derrig will agree that there have been a great number of difficulties in the way of getting heretofore enough land to plant. This, if successful, will solve that difficulty in the West.
If the experiment is successful, as we believe it will, from the agricultural land viewpoint, we are going to secure land not merely for Glenamoy but for Kerry, Galway, Mayo and Donegal where there are substantial areas of blanket bog available. That is the position at the moment.
If the experiments are a success could the Minister say whether the two matters, and I make special reference to the agricultural side, be segregated? I feel sure the Minister himself will appreciate my point of view that the two matters should not be lumped together in the experiment but that they should be kept as separate entities.
I certainly agree with the Deputy that there must be a method of costing these projects. How that method of costing is to be arrived at is a matter for the individual Minister concerned. I quite agree that we must be in a situation, certainly at the end of the experiment, in which we can show it on a costed basis because without costing it would not be of much use.
Ar an gcéad dul sáos ba mhaith liom a fháil amach cé tá freagrach san Oifig seo anois. Cé tá freagrach i Min Fhéir Teoranta—an é an tAire Tailte nó an tAire Airgeadais? Níl le rá agamsa faoin ceist ach go geaithfimíd fanacht go bhfeicfimíd. Tá sé soiléar anois go raibh an Rialtas níos cúramaí nuair a cheapadar críoch a chur le Mín Fhé ir Teoranta nó mar bhíodar i 1940; tá sé soiléar nár dheineadar iarracht é a chur ar cheal d'aon-ghnó toise gurbh iad Fianna Fáil a bhí ciontach ina bhunú. Mar dúirt mé, níl againn le déanamh ach fanúint go bhfeicfimíd.
Nuair adeirim sin táim ag cuimhneamh ar scéim eile a bunaíodh blianta ó shoin — scéim i dtaobh na bportach i gContae Chill Dara. An uair sin, thug an tAire Airgeadais, Proinsias Mac Aogáin, isteach anseo suim airgid a bhí bídeach i gcomparáid leis an suim uile a cuireadh os comhair na Dála an bhliain sin chun an scéim Chaonaigh Mhóna a bhunú. Ach níor deineadh faoi ach gáire, magadh agus fonóid. Ní mórán den fhonóid ná den gháire atá le cloisteáil uathu anois mar tá an caonach móna céanna dá chur thar sáile go tíortha na hEorpa agus fiú amháin chuig na Stáit Aontaithe. Ach mar dúirt mé ní raibh ó bhinsí Fhine Gael ach magadh agus fonóid nuair a bunaíodh an scéim sin.
Ní raibh Mórán le rá ag an Aire Riatltais Airiúil faoi Oifig na Gaeltachta agus na gCeantar gCúng. Is furasta a thuiscint ón méid adúirt sé — nó mar adeir sé féin "a thuighmheáil"— gurbh é an tAire é féin atá freagrach san Oifig sin. Má tá sé sin ceart, a bhfuil sé i ndon a rá cé céard a dhein sé i gcúrsa na bliana seo faoi na scéimeanna a bhí ar bun nuair a tháinig sé in oifig i 1954? An ndéarfaidh an tAire go bhfuil na scémeanna sin idire lámha aige nó ar chuir sé ar ceal iad mar rinne sé le Min Fhéir Teoranta? Ba mhaith liom freisin a fháil amach an bhfuil an Coiste Eadar-Rannach a bhí ar siúl faoin Vóta seo nuair a bhí an Teachta Seán Ó Loingsigh i bhfeighil na hoifige ag obair a thuilleadh. An dtagann sé le chéile chor ar bith níos mó, nó an minicí a thagann sé le céile?
Do rinneadh tagairt do na Gardaí sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht agus deir an tAire Rialtais Aitiúil nach mórán Gaeilge atá in usáid anois ag na Gardai Síochána in áiteacha i nGaillimh agus i nDún na nGall. Tá eolas maith agamsa ar Fhíor-Ghaeltacht Chonamara. Shíl mé riamh go ndearna na Gardaí a ngnó oifigiúil i nGaeilge agus nach raibh focal Béarla le cloisint sna Cúirteanna sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht. Cheap mé freisin gur labhair na Gardaí tré Ghaeilge le héinne a raibh gnó acu leo; nuair a tharla tionóisc gur chuir sé síos an tuarascáil sa teanga náisiúnta amháin. Do thuig mé riamh go raibh a lán Gaeilge dá húsáid ag na Gardaí sna ceantair Fíor-Ghaeltachta i gConamara agus i nDún na Gall agus sna Rosa.
Deamhain focal a cloistear anois ag na Gardaí i nGaillimh.
Ní fheadar céard a tharla agus an oiliúint atá acu anois ní hamháin ins na ceantair Fíor-Ghaeltachta ach tríd an tír uilig. Ní hionann anois agus blianta ó shoin mar gheibheann na daoine óga anois oiliúint bhreá sa nGaeilge. Tá aithne mhaith agam ar a lán buachaillí atá sna Gardaí agus bhí siad i ndon Gaeilge bhreá chliste líofa a labhairt. B'fhéidir nach mbeadh an tAire sasta leis an sórt Gaeilge atá acu ach ba cheart go mbeadh Gaeilge líofa acu agus an scrúdú béil agus an scrúdú scríofa atá le déanamh acu sul a dté siad isteach sna Gardaí. Ba chóir go mbeadh na Gardaí, go mór mhór sa Ghaeltacht, agus gach oifigeach poiblí eile, ábalta ar a gnóa dhéanamh as Gaeilge agus gan bheith ag iompó ar an mBéarla nuair a scaireann said lena chuid gnótha. Nuair a cuireadh an scéim i bhfeidhm, sin é an smaoineamh a bhí taobh thiar di. Sin é an smaoineamh a bhí in aigne an Rialtais nuair a cuireadh an scéim sin maidir leis na Gardaí i bhfeidhm cuid mhaith blianta óshoin anois, agus is trua liom a chlos ón Aire gur mar sin atá an scéal i nDún na nGall. Tá tuairim agam nach mar sin atá an scéal i gceantair eile ón eolas pearsanta atá agam féin, agus, más mar sin atá sé in aon áit, ní mar sin ba chóir é a bheith.
Do labhair an tAire Talmhaíochta mar gheall ar na scéimeanna pearsanta a chuir sé féin ar bun le tairbhe a dhéanamh do mhuintir Chonamara. Do dhein sé tagairt do scéim réabtha na gcarraigreacha agus dúirt sé go raibh sésin ar siúl arís. Níl sé fíor gur tógadh na hinnill go léir a bhí i gConamara nuair a chuaigh sé as oifig i mbliain 1951. Dúirt sé gur tógadh as Conamara iad. Tógadh na hinnill a raibh baint acu leis na carraigreacha a réabadh ach do fágadh an meaisínre eile ann agus tá sé ann fós. Ní amháin san, ach fuair na feirmeoirí i gConamara—aon iarratasóir a chuir isteach ar dheontas chun a chuid talúin a leasú — breis deich bpunt ar gach acra nuair a tháinig Fianna Fáil isteach in oifig i mbliain 1951. Deontas £20 a bhí ann roimhe sin agus hardaíodh é sin go dtí £30 nuair a bhí an Teachta Tomás Breathnach ina Aire.
Maidir leis an scéim sin atá i gceist ar an Aire, na carraigreacha a réabadh suas agus iad a chaitheamh isteach sa bhfarraige, tuigim gur scéim anchostasach í sin. Deirtear liom go gcosnódh sé £100 an acra agus ní fheadar an fiú an costas an tairbhe nó an mbeidh aon tairbhe fónta le baint as an talamh a bhéas ann nuair a bhéas na carraigreach móra sin scriosta agus caite sa bhfarraige. Níl fhios agam. Is ceist í cosúil leis an cheist eile mar gheall ar an min fhéir, agus b'fhearr, dar liomsa, cloí le feabhsú na talún fónta atá i gConamara, nó in áit éigin eile, ná bheith ag baint le scéim fiáin mar sin, mar sin é atá ann, dar liomsa. Tá sé an-chostasúil agus ní féidir a rá go cruinn cad é an tairbhe a thiocfaidh as. Má tá focharraig anseo agus ansud, ba cheart iad a bhaint amach gan aon agó, ach scéim chun na carraigreacha go léir i gConamara a réabadh agus iad a chaitheamh sa bhfarraige, is amaideach an scéim í im thuairimse. D'fhéadfaí an t-airgead san a chaitheamh i bhfad níos tairbhí i slite eile— an talamh atá ann a fheabhsú agus cabhrú leis na daoine atá ina gcónaí ann slí bheatha a bhaint as.
Tá súil agam go dtabharfaidh an tAire, nuair a bhéas sé ag freagairt na díospóireachta seo, níos mó eolais mar gheall ar obairr na hoifige seo dúinn aá mar thug sé dúinn nuair a bhí sé ag cur an Mheastacháin os ár gcomhair. Níor thug sé mórán eolais dúinn agus ba chóinn i dtaobh na hoibre sin — cad é an saghas obasir atá ar siúl ag an Oifig agus cad tá beartaithe aige a dhéanamh anois don bhliain seo atá romhainn amach. Más féidir leis aon rúd a rá linn, aon eolas a thabhairt dúinn i dtaobh na gceisteanna seo — bhfuil an Rialtas chun aire fé leith a cheapadh le haghaidh na Gaeltachta agus le hobair na Gaeltachta a chur chun cinn — ba chóir dó é a thabhairt dúinn.
I think it must be admitted that the preservation and extension of the Gaeltacht has not been very successful. It is, however, only right to say that there is a considerable volume of Irish spoken, particularly in the county I come from, and that the people take a pride in speaking it, not only in the Gaeltacht itself but in the Breac-Ghaeltacht. I would be inclined to say that in this debate the approach that has been made from an economic point of view, which, to my mind, is probably the most important factor in the preservation of the Gaeltacht, has been negative and, if you like, purely palliative. It must surely be considered that the development of the West generally runs hand in hand with the preservation and extension of the Gaeltacht.
One would imagine from hearing the discussion that there are no potentialities either for improving industry or ways of living in the West. I think that the West has, in fact, tremendous potentialities, but I am afraid these potentialities have never been recognised by any of our Governments. We have a fair amount of talk — I would not say exactly it is lip service because there are good intentions behind what is being done — but apart from having good intentions, these intentions have never been implemented to any appreciable extent. While immediate employment on small scale improvements such as we have heard is very desirable, it is no solution, and, in fact, is not at all the way to bring about what is desired.
I am quite satisfied that the only way in which we are ever going to have a really effective Gaeltacht and Breac-Ghaeltacht is by having large-scale development in the Gaeltacht itself and in the areas surrounding it, and I am inclined to agree that it does, in fact, need the direction of an agent of the Government, if not of a Minister or a Parliamentary Secretary. We should approach this matter in this way: We have in the West tremendous potentialities in the line of afforestation for one thing, fisheries for another, together with industry based either on some of the raw materials or products arising from afforestation and fisheries or some other raw materials.
Allied to this, I think we should have some decentralisation of Government with headquarters in the West. I would go further and say that a large proportion of the personnel of that decentralised part of Government should be drawn from the Gaeltacht areas themselves, from the Breac-Ghaeltacht and from the West generally, because if anybody knows and appreciates the best manner of promoting what is good for the West and fighting for the rights of the West, it is the people of the West themselves who are best fitted to discharge that task. They would be more likely to take a lively and an active interest in the development of the West than, say, officials not directly concerned with it, but merely tackling it as a job in a disinterested way. When I say "disinterested," I do not mean to suggest that they would not have a real desire to make a success of it, but I think that the personnel of any such Department could be greatly improved if it were drawn principally from the Gaeltacht and from those counties where it was expected to bring about a much-desired improvement.
It has been admitted, I think, that the Gaeltacht areas are gradually diminishing rather than extending, due not altogether to emigration to foreign lands, but to the emigration of the people in those areas to other counties in Ireland, and particularly, I would say, to Dublin City. That emigration is just as disastrous, from the point of view of the preservation of the Gaeltacht, as emigration to America or England. If that is going to be stopped, there is only one way to do it, and that is by making the West of Ireland so attractive in itself that the people will want to remain there. At the moment the people of the West want to continue to live there, but, like those in other parts of Ireland, they want to better themselves. As it is, there is no great attraction for them to do so from the point of view of making a substantial living for themselves and their families.
We have the National Development Fund. Has any use been made of it towards improving the economic position of the West? I think myself that merely to improve the position of the roads is not going to be any great attraction or any great improvement either, from the economic point of view. I do not think that tourism is in itself any solution for the problem that we have in the West. I would like to say again that we have the material if we wish to use it. I am afraid, however, that what is happening is that the West is merely regarded as something which crops up in a debate in this House once or twice a year and after that is almost forgotten again. As one Deputy said to-day, the expenditure on Gaeltacht services at the moment does not warrant the cost of what is being administered. I should like to know if anything is being given to these areas out of the National Development Fund.
We also have the Undeveloped Areas Act. Has anything come to those areas as a result of the passing of that Act? There has been a great deal of talk to the effect that there are great difficulties in bringing about the desired result so far as afforestation is concerned. Everyone in this House apparently agrees that afforestation is possibly one of the most important factors that could be employed from the point of view of improving any part of the country, and particularly the West. I do not know what the difficulties are in regard to acquiring land for afforestation. It has been said that people do not want to leave their land because of a sentimental attachment to it. I do know for a fact that one of the reasons, and probably the greatest reason, why land is not available for afforestation is the wholly unattractive prices which have been offered to farmers for their land for afforestation purposes. These prices are not only unattractive but they are such as would not attract any man to give up any of his land. I would say that they are ridiculous.
So far as I know, in the case of afforestation the greatest expense involved is not in respect to the provision of the capital moneys needed for the purchase of the land. I would say that, in the long run, it is one of the smallest items. We seem to think that, if we offer a man £5, £6 or £7 an acre for his land, we are establishing a wholly undesirable precedent, and that every other man will want the same thing. I know of cases where men have been offered as low a price as £2, and £3 an acre.
I have been told in a manner which suggested that the information should not be disclosed that the maximum amount per acre paid for land for afforestation purposes is something in the region of £8. I should like to hear that contradicted because farmers are certainly under the impression that if they give their land for afforestation they will merely get a compensation price. While that belief exists, and while farmers and others are not offered a suitable price for their land, there is absolutely no hope in the world of having more afforestation than we have at the moment.
There is another way of acquiring land which, I think, is not being availed of, and that is by way of exchange. I know that in the County Galway there are people there with land totalling over 100 acres. It is really only very poor rough grazing land, rocky and mountainy, which the occupiers would be quite prepared to give in exchange for economic agricultural holdings in other areas. They do not even confine themselves to County Galway, but would be quite prepared to go to any other county where land was available for them. Despite the repeated offers which they had made of their land, these offers had been completely ignored.
I wonder are we serious on this question of afforestation. Its promotion and extension could be of great advantage in the national interest. It would create continuous employment and would be a big economic factor so far as the welfare of the country as a whole is concerned. From the national point of view, it should be encouraged and should be proceeded with much more rapidly than we are doing at the moment. I suggest it as one solution for the Gaeltacht areas in the West of Ireland which is not being availed of at the moment. There must be thousands of acres of such land as I have spoken of which could be made available at a cheap price through exchanges if the Land Commission and the Government made arrangements for such exchanges. That would be one way of tackling the problem in a forceful way and would represent something better than merely talking about it. Apart from the economic factors, afforestation could have a very welcome and beneficial effect on our climate through the planted areas absorbing the moisture.
As well as afforestation, we have another tremendous potentiality in our fisheries. I find it hard to understand how we here in this island, surrounded by wonderful fishing grounds, cannot develop the fishing industry on lines to enable us to make available adequate supplies of fish for our own people. We ought not only be able to do that but should be able to enlarge the export potentiality of our fisheries as well. The present position is that you cannot buy a bit of plaice or sole in this country, which is surrounded by such valuable fishing grounds, without paying a most exorbitant price for it. Fish has become a luxury. Surely there is something wrong when that is the case. Yet the people are leaving those areas where there are such wonderful potentialities for developing the fishing industry.
I do not think sufficient encouragement is given to industrialising parts of the Gaeltacht and I would say that in relation to the Breac-Ghaeltacht more than to the Gaeltacht. In my view, sufficient encouragement has not been given to industry in the West. I have noticed that, comparatively speaking, small grants have been given with a view to starting industries though I do not know whether or not they have been paid yet. If we intend to progress at this rate I am afraid these areas will be almost extinct by the time we get anywhere from the point of view of making the West productive industrially, agriculturally or otherwise.
In my view, Galway University is not receiving the encouragement it should receive from any Government interested in the preservation of the Gaeltacht. The establishment of an agricultural faculty there might be desirable. Furthermore, the faculties which at present exist in that university should receive all the encouragement that is asked for from time to time. If anything should happen that would detract from the full effectiveness of that university then, to that extent, will it detract from effective action on the part of the Government to increases the influence of the Gaeltacht not only in the West but throughout the country generally.
Finally, I believe we can get nowhere with a proper furtherance of the interests of the Gaeltacht and the West generally unless there is some direct contact and, in fact, I would say a continuous overseeing of what is happening, not by a Department but by a branch of the Department, situated preferably in what we might term the capital of the Gaeltacht areas, possibly Galway City, but somewhere in the West. Without that immediate and constant effort on the part of some body which has the desire to see the West improved, and constantly improving, the whole effect of these once yearly debates in Dáil Éireann will be absolutely negative. That is all I want to say now except that in the West the language is certainly stronger than it has been.
Sé mo thuairim go mbeadh sé fuar againn bheith ag súil le hobair fhónta agus scéimeanna le haghaidh leasú na Gaeltachta a thcacht ó oifig anseo i mBaile Átha Cliath. Caithfidh bunoifig de shaghas éigin, a bheith sa nGaeltacht féin, mar shampla, i gCathair na Gaillimhe nó in áit éigin mar sin. Chomh maith leis sin ba chóir go mbeadh fo-choiste in gach contae fén gComhairle Chontae cosúil leis an gCoiste Gairm-Oideachais nó na Coisti Talmhaíochta. Ba chóir go mbeadh fo-choiste den tsórt sin ag obair i ngach contae i dtreo is go mbeadh eolas acu ar na rudaí go léir ab fhearr a bheith i bhfeidhm sna ceantair éagsúla sin. Gan aon amhras, caithfidh duine éigin a bheith anseo i mBaile Átha Cliath i dtreo go mbeidh an comhoibriú ceart ar siúl agus i dtreo nach mbeidh aon chailliúint ama ná aon rud mar sin chun na scéimeanna go léir a thabhairt chun críche in áiteacha anseo is ansiúd.
Is brón linn go bhfuil daoine uaisle na Gaeltachta scaipthe amach tríd na tire agus i gcéin. Go deimhin, chomh fada is a fhanann siad sa tír seo níl cúis na teangan ná aon obair a bhaineas leis an tír seo caillte; tá na daoine uaisle sin inár measc fós. Ach má tá siad scaipthe uainn thar lear ansin beidh na daoine is uaisle atá againn sa tír seo caillte againn go brách.
Nuair a théann duine go dtí an Ghaeltacht chíonn sé chomh bocht is atá an talamh anseo is ansiúd ann. Chíonn sé carraigeacha freisin ann. Uaireanta is bun-charraigeacha iad agus ní féidir iad a bhogadh ach in áiteacha eile níl ionta ach carraigeacha nach bhfuil ceangailte den bhuncharraig, mar adéarfá, agus leis na gléasanna innealltóireachta atá againn fé láthair dob fhéidir na carraigeacha sin a bhriseadh suas agus a chur ar thaobh na páirce. Sa tslí sin dob fhéidir an talamh a dheisiú le haghaidh barraí.
Ansan tá portaigh ann. Tá eolas maith againn go léir ar an méid dea-oibre atá déanta ag an nGinearál Ó Coisdealbha don bhiatas. Dob fhéidir tuilleadh oibre den tsórt sin a dhéanamh agus sin i bhfad níos treise ná mar deineadh é cheana.
Nuair a bhíonn duine ar chuaird sa nGaeltacht chíonn sé chomh gann is atá na cearca ann. Is dócha go bhfuil an scéal mar sin ós rud é nach bhfuil an fhothain cheart dóibh ann agus nach bhfuil an oiread sin coirce nó féir timpeall an tí dóibh is atá ar fud na tíre go hiomlán.
Ní bhíonn fothain ag na cearca agus níl tithe ag na daoine in a gcóir sin. Arís, níl mórán muca ann. Sin rudaí gur féidir roint airgid a caitheamh orthu, an t-airgead a thabhairt do na daoine i dtreo gur féidir leo na sicíní agus na cearca d'fháil agus na muca óga agus tithe a thógáil dóibh.
Tá a lán rudaí beaga i dtosach is féidir a dhéanamh gan a lán airgid a caitheamh orthu, an fhad a bheimid ag cuimhneamh ar scéimeanna níos mó agus níos láidre. Chomh fada is bheimid ag caint mar gheall ar an nGaeltacht anseo i mBaile Átha Cliath, is dócha gur beag an méid oibre a bheidh dá dhéanamh againn.
As long as we are talking about the Gaeltacht here in Dublin, very little will be done. My view is that an office — and not an obscure office, either, but a very good and effective office — should be established in the Gaeltacht itself, say in the City of Galway. It should have a consultative board, with people from the Gaeltacht, and I would certainly bring in Lieutenant-General Costello, who has done so much for the beet and who has his own ideas on reclamation, and Mr. Tod Andrews, who has done so much in turf development. They should be brought into that board and they could bring in a number of consultants who would meet occasionally in such an office and try to evolve some schemes where there would be less talk and more action. With that, of course, you must have someone here in Dublin who would co-ordinate the works of the various Departments dealing with schemes applying to the Gaeltacht and who would be in touch with the Government Departments that control the finances.
With that organisation I would set up in each Gaeltacht county, under the county council or under the central office, I do not care which, a committee to work like the vocational committee or the county committee of agriculture. They would apply in each county, in the development of the Gaeltacht, the schemes most appropriate for that particular area. It may be the reclamation of poorer land and the clearing of rocks, briars and furze, or it may be the drainage of bogs and the improvement generally of marginal land. It may be afforestation — sometimes along the roadsides and the glensides, where little use can be made otherwise of that land except as rough grazing, which cannot, of course, be entirely eliminated. These committees would act not only in an advisory capacity but also as an effective unit, to see that the work is being done.
The development of a coastal fleet would open up communications and would bring into our little harbours here and there, perhaps, a system of distribution which would be helpful to those small port towns. The ships could be built at home in our own dockyards. The improvement of harbours and slipways to accommodate them would give work of a really useful character. In that way there would be some chance of giving new hope to the Gaeltacht.
The people are leaving because they think nobody is going to do anything for them. We will have to treat the people living there as families who, through the various vicissitudes of our history, stuck to the rocks and the fastnesses of our country and made a hazardous living there — fishing perhaps to-day and working on small patches of land to-morrow. The fishing should be developed and encouragement should be given in every way possible to the fishermen so that they may have their own boats, boats of an up to date character. There is risk enough in the sea, as everybody knows, even with good boats, without asking our fishermen to risk their lives and their family fortunes in boats that are not really fit or adapted to their purpose, perhaps too small for our rugged shores.
In travelling through the Gaeltacht, one is struck by the small development of the poultry industry. At times of the year, of course, those seaside places are wild and unprotected. They have not the same shelter for poultry in the haggards as there would be in the better-off areas in the country where they can go out amongst the ricks and stacks and get shelter and food. The people should be given real encouragement to build fuel houses and sties for the pigs. They should be encouraged to develop those industries about which they know a fair amount. Then the marketing of their produce should be put on a proper basis, to their general advantage. We should stop talking about industrialising the Gaeltacht, until we have done those things which are readily available and which are fundamental. Even if we have to expend a certain amount of money on it, these people are so precious to us that they deserve that effort from the rest of the country to do something for the Gaeltacht. The money should be made available there for schemes that will be advantageous for the household for a start. Then if cottage industries or bigger industries can be built up in the course of time, if the land can be made more productive for the people and if their future can be made more hopeful, those people who have stuck to their land and to our country through the ages will not leave it now or at any time, but will work and endure there, to the general advantage of the nation.
I am intervening in this debate for two main reasons. One is that I represent a constituency, North Mayo, wherein is situate the area where the production of grass meal was contemplated and was in operation to some extent. My second reason is that I represent a large area where Irish is, in the main, the spoken language of the people. I move to report progress.
