When we moved to report progress last night, I think the Minister suggested we had not jumped many hurdles. We might make some progress if the Minister gave way a little and agreed to leave this amendment to a free vote of the House.
Greyhound Industry Bill, 1955—Committee Stage (Resumed).
Debate resumed on amendment No. 16:—
Before sub-section (5) to insert a new sub-section as follows:—
(5) The board may require the club to contribute towards the general expenses of the board to assist it in fulfilling its functions under this Act such proportion of the net revenue of the club as in the opinion of the board is reasonable.—(Deputy O'Malley.)
No.
That is the trouble.
I met you substantially in respect of previous amendments.
Substantially, I agree, but not to the extent we want. I happen to know that there is a number of members of the House, other than those on this side of the House, who are in favour of this amendment, if it were left to a free vote of the House. If the Minister allowed a free vote on it, the amendment might have substantial support in the House. I tried my utmost to reason from the Minister's point of view as to why he should object. I can see no excuse whatsoever for his not accepting the amendment. Deputy Ó Briain last night made some reference to the finance subcommittee under Section 8 of the Schedule.
Might I suggest to the Minister that he read the last part of paragraph 107, page 44 of the Report of the Advisory Committee on the Greyhound Industry where it states:—
"Indeed, representatives of the Irish Coursing Club stated that they were not satisfied with the performance of a number of their stewards, and asserted that the club was not in a position financially to offer the higher salaries necessary to command the services of more reliable officials, or to employ them in sufficient numbers."
Further on, the report says:—
"We find ourselves unable to agree that the club could not have afforded the expense involved in the employment of extra stewards. It is apparent from references to the finances of the club in the succeeding section that the club, plus its subsidiary companies, is in reality a wealthy organisation and that it could readily have afforded the necessary outlay on the employment of sufficient supervisory staff."
This paragraph was written after an inquiry, at a time when it was alleged and substantially agreed that the greyhound industry had fallen rapidly into a very bad state. Nevertheless, side by side with that, the financial situation of the club had gone from strength to strength. They could, according to this, have done certain things which might have made the rate of deterioration less rapid and they offered the excuse that they could not afford it. The inquiry came to the conclusion that that explanation was not acceptable. They could, in fact, have spent more money on the protection of the industry.
I raise that as only an illustration. Here you have a club that has very substantial resources accumulated. We are now establishing a board, a supreme authority, to bring the industry, and all those engaged in it, into a satisfactory and remunerative condition so far as the country is concerned. They will now have what they did not have before and what they claim they regretted they did not have. They will have a statutory position which will enable them substantially— I use the word again—to improve their income from fees, and so on. What they will do with the accumulated funds and the additional accumulation of funds is beyond me, if they will not be asked to make some contribution.
Formerly the Irish Coursing Club provided stewards. Now the board will provide stewards, so that there will be a big drop in their financial commitments in respect of expenses.
Surely they ought to be asked to make a contribution to the board which will take that load off their backs. I cannot see any reason for the Minister not accepting the proposition embodied in this amendment. I cannot see any reasonable objection and neither can I see any reason at all in the Minister's approach.
The Minister may feel we are making slow progress. We are not making very much progress because we are unable to get a concentration of thought on the conflicting arguments and so come to some decision. What does the Minister want? Here you had the club formerly supplying stewards. I understood from another part of the inquiry that certain racetracks had to pay for their stewards. It is obvious from this that better stewards could have been made available, if the club had paid more money. I am glad Deputy Barry is here now. Perhaps he can correct me if I am wrong.
Anything to extend the discussion.
If the Minister would do one of two things, the discussion would immediately drop. Is it unfair to ask that an amendment of this sort should be left to a free vote of the House? There is nothing of national or fundamental importance in it. It is, of course, important to the greyhound industry and to the Irish Coursing Club. I appeal to Deputy Barry to guide me, if I am wrong in this matter. I do not know whether the Deputy has in his possession a copy of the report of the advisory committee. I drew attention to a certain statement in that report which I may not now repeat, but which says——
The Deputy is going to repeat it anyhow.
I shall only make a reference. Deputy Barry was not in the House earlier and I would draw his attention to the fact that we are discussing amendment No. 16 which seeks to allow the board to request a contribution to the board's funds from the Irish Coursing Club.
No, no. It seeks to allow the board to "require" the club. Strike out the word "require"; insert "request"; and you can have the amendment.
Ultimately, a request may not be granted. We want to see that, when the Irish Coursing Club have increased their swollen income, they should be asked, if the board needs additional help, to afford such help.
Not that they should be asked, but that they should be required.
That the request should be enforceable.
Quite.
The club will be saving a lot of expenditure at present indulged in which will be transferred to the board. Their income now will become a statutory obligation on those who are members; they will have the right to enforce fees in the same way as the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs can enforce the licensing of radio sets. I believe there is nothing unreasonable in our proposal. The board must have finances to carry out its obligations satisfactorily. It has a certain number of sources which are estimated at various possible figures— some optimistic and some pessimistic. They will get an income from the public through the bookmakers—a charge on betting transactions. That can fluctuate up or down. The rapidity with which income can come in from that source will depend upon the general state of business in the community. If you have prosperity, you will have a bigger income; if you have hard times, the income is bound to suffer.
There will then be a percentage of the income from the totalisator. Again there are various estimates of what that will amount to, but nobody can accurately assess what it will be. While this is all going on, the board will have certain overheads to meet. The board must have a full and efficient staff to deal with its commitments; it will have work to do, not only in connection with the running of the totalisator in such centres as Dublin and Cork, but it will also have to provide stewards and facilities for the general overall control and examination of things.
Another point of view which must be considered is that, notwithstanding the fact that under this Bill the board will have power to borrow, it would probably be more prudent to put them in the position where they would have to borrow as little as possible, because borrowing to-day is an expensive luxury. We know all about it from our hospitals. We know that where a hospital runs into a deficit, the luxury of having an overdraft costs them £600 a year. In the Irish Coursing Club, you have assets estimated at £60,000.
Not liquid assets.
Assets valued at £60,000, a certain amount of which is liquid. They will also have income increased and expenditure decreased when this Bill comes into operation as an Act. Is it unreasonable to ask that the board, which will operate a lot of its transactions for the benefit of the Irish Coursing Club, should be able to say to the club: "Knowing that you now have so many thousands of pounds of excess revenue, we need from you a contribution towards our general overheads"? Is there anything unreasonable in that? The Minister can shorten the proceedings considerably by replying to that. Perhaps the Minister would give us his arguments against this proposal. We could then compare them, so to speak, with our own arguments. There are members on the other side of the House who are in agreement with the amendment and who should be allowed to express that opinion in a free vote.
Where are they? They are not here.
I do not think they are gone to the dogs. They certainly are not here at the moment. The amendment does not ask for 10 per cent. of the club's profits. It does not say the club shall pay a percentage of its excess income or profits. I am asking the Minister to give us his clear, lucid explanation as to why the amendment is not acceptable, or leave it to a free vote of the House.
I think I explained as clearly and as lucidly as I could any objections I had, and I think these objections were cast into crystal-clear form by Deputy Finlay. I want to reaffirm now that I do not propose to ask Dáil Éireann to give the board power to levy on the assets or income of the Irish Coursing Club——
Or profits.
On the income or assets. I would direct the Deputy's attention and the attention of the House to the section which it is sought here to amend—Section 26. It says in sub-section (3):—
"The board may advise and assist the club in connection with any activities or measures conducive to the better implementation by the club of its constitution and rules, to the better discharge by the club of its functions or to the improvement and development of the greyhound industry."
Sub-section (4) of the same section reads:—
"It shall be the duty of the club to keep such books, accounts and records as may be approved of by the board and to furnish to the board such information in relation to the club's activities as the board may require."
It is provided in this or another section that the board may contribute to the expenses of the club, if the club themselves may require it for the general improvement of the greyhound industry. If the board thought that the club were piling up an excessive income through fees or any other charges which they were making on the greyhound breeding industry, the board are in a position to control the club and prevent them from doing that, but I have heard no argument made as to why the House should give the board the right to investigate the income or the assets of the Irish Coursing Club. I do not propose to ask Dáil Éireann to give them that power. You would really think from Deputy Briscoe that I was trying to take away from the board a traditional right it had to plunder the Irish Coursing Club at its sweet will. The fact is that all I am doing is resisting an attempt by Deputy O'Malley——
——and company.
Well, he put down the amendment—to create a new power in the board to corral the assets of the Irish Coursing Club. I do not propose to do that. I do not propose to ask the House to do it, and I propose to ask the House to vote against this amendment.
Really I would urge on Deputies to recall to their minds that it did appear on the Second Reading of this Bill that we all had a common purpose in trying to improve the greyhound racing industry, and that this Bill, in principle, at any rate, was generally accepted as being directed to that end. Surely we are entitled to expect that the board and the club, inasmuch as four members of the board will be members of the executive of the Irish Coursing Club, will be working in friendly collaboration for the common end. I am coerced by the attitude of Deputy Briscoe and Deputy MacEntee, and somewhat less of Deputy O'Malley, to the view that they are obsessed with the idea that any chance they can get of taking a swipe at the Irish Coursing Club, they are going to take it, and that this is one. I notice a bland smile spreading over Deputy O'Malley's face. I do not think he is quite as good as his colleagues at suppressing his more secret thoughts, but I cannot divorce from my mind entirely the belief that this is simply another effort by Deputies on the other side to take another swipe at the Irish Coursing Club.
I do not think it is rational for Deputy Briscoe to stand up more in sorrow than in anger and to say that he deplores the slow progress of this Bill, but that, if the Minister would prove more accommodating, the Bill would travel faster. I agree that if the Minister would let Deputy MacEntee and Deputy Briscoe walk up and down on the Irish Coursing Club and then jump on it, and plunder it, and wreck it, I have no doubt the Bill would pass through the House like greased lightning; but I have not the slightest intention of allowing Deputy Briscoe or Deputy MacEntee to do so, or to co-operate with them in any way in that direction. I should like to think that I have the solid support of the Deputy from North Dublin——
I think you have.
——in resistance to that desire to defame, plunder and generally eviscerate the Irish Coursing Club. I want to see substantial justice done to all and, God knows, other Deputies in the House should lend a hand in achieving that desirable end, so that we could make useful progress in the consideration of this Bill.
The Minister is reading into the words that have been recorded and interpreting the words that have been spoken to bring about an attitude of mind in other people which is most dastardly and unfair. I challenge anybody who reads what I have said on this amendment to find any evidence whatsoever that we want to confiscate, that we want to plunder. Those are the words the Minister has introduced as his interpretation of what I said on this amendment—that we want to corral, we want to coerce, we are obsessed with the idea that we must swipe the Irish Coursing Club, trample it underfoot out of existence, that Deputy MacEntee and I are so clever, as distinct from my innocent colleague here, who, I am sure, feels the very same as we do about it, speaking quite frankly and openly as we are, that we have been able to develop in ourselves a magnificent ability to suppress our most secret thoughts, that we are out to wreck the Irish Coursing Club, to defame and eviscerate it. It is nothing of the kind.
I beg your pardon?
I say, nothing of the kind.
Does Deputy Burke hear that?
I challenge the Minister to find any words I have uttered which would bear any such interpretation. Of course, the Minister again comes back to his majority of four, who may be, as the Minister says, in the beginning of the history of this board when it is set up——
Speak slowly and you will be able to fill the debate yourself.
I am not speaking slowly. I am trying to speak clearly and explicitly and cleanly. I want to get as far away as I can from the mentality of the Irish Coursing Club paper and its editor.
That does not arise out of this amendment.
The Minister is expressing that type of language. When we say that those people should be made to pay their fair share as a contribution, if it is necessary, towards the management of the national greyhound industry, the Minister says it is plunder, confiscation, wrecking, eviscerating. I wonder did the Minister ever see anything eviscerated. Did he ever see the operation? It is easy to use those words, but one must understand what they mean. Did he mean that we will do it while they are alive?
Not in any abattoir over which I have control, and I have control of them all.
If they were alive, they would not have to go to the Minister's abattoirs. We admit that they would not be fit subjects for slaughter in any of the Minister's abattoirs.
You are not quite objective, apparently.
I cannot hear the Deputy —I am sorry. I would like to hear him.
He suggests that you are not being objective in your speech.
I am objective.
It does not sound that way.
There are many of us in this House, not all confined to this side, who feel that there is great intro justice in looking forward to the time when this body, the Irish Coursing Club, will have a very substantial increase in income, with a great reduction of the expenditure that they now have to incur and which will be taken over by the board, and if they are in a position to make a contribution——
On a point of order, may I submit that, with the arrival of each Deputy to the House, Deputy Briscoe makes his argument all over again for the information of the new arrival? If we persist on this basis, this debate could go on for ever.
Repetition is not allowed, but I cannot rule out the Deputy on this occasion, because I have not heard him make those speeches on any earlier occasion.
You will.
I am sure that the Minister would be delighted if he could bring in a motion to have the closure to this now, because every word uttered on every section and amendment is a great offence to him; but those of us here feel that we must make every effort we can to protect the just interests of all persons concerned. I said before, and I make the offer again, why not leave this to a free vote? Is the Minister afraid that the exposure would be such that it would be carried by the majority of members of this House, and does he think, with that knowledge in his mind, that it is fair to steamroll this section through, without this amendment?
I took great care to be quiet and reasoned in my arguments. The only impression I could make on the Minister was to draw from him all those horrible nightmares to which he gave expression and which had got into his head as a result of my mild language. If I had been angry and if I had used some of those words, if I had said: "This is an amendment deliberately designed to plunder these people, to confiscate what they have, an amendment deliberately designed to corral them, an amendment deliberately designed to swipe them as I suppose the plagues swiped the Egyptians——"
"Smote" is the word in that context.
All we ask is that the board "may"—they may not, if they do not need it, but if they do need it, they have a right to enforce it. We shall probably agree on a figure for the levy to the public. We shall probably agree on what the maximum charges will be to bookmakers going in to do their business. We shall probably have to agree on the maximum charge on the totalisator. The Minister must not be obsessed with the idea and must not go home night after night while this Bill is before the House afraid to go asleep for fear we shall think out some new horrible dose of medicine to embarrass further the Irish Coursing Club.
I am not concerned about the personnel of the Irish Coursing Club. I know very little about it. I met the secretary of the organisation only quite recently when he came on a deputation to see a couple of our people. I do not know the man. He has never done me any harm. I do not do business with him. I am only interested in the overall position. If you want this Bill to be a success, you must have regard for the opinions of others. All the wisdom in the State is not locked up in the secret archives of the Department of Agriculture, with the key in the Minister's pocket. There is a certain amount of wisdom over here, too. I appeal to the Minister to forget all these swashbuckling words and to bear in mind that when a fellow raises his hand to salute a person, he is not raising his hand to strike that person. That is the Minister's attitude. If he sees somebody raising his hand to salute him, he immediately defends himself as if the fellow were going to strike him. The Minister should get rid of that outlook.
I heard only the tail-end of the Minister's reply, and I have listened to what Deputy Briscoe had to say. I am beginning to wonder if Deputy Briscoe appreciates the meaning of Section 26 at all. I am beginning to wonder if he appreciates that, in the main, the functions set out in Section 26 would be comparable with the three functions more or less exercised in racing by the stewards of the Turf Club, the stewards of the National Hunt Club and the Keeper of the Match-Book.
How does that come in here?
This particular section——
We are discussing the amendment.
I know. Let me come to the amendment. From what source of income of the Irish Coursing Club in the context of Section 26——
Read the Schedule.
This is an amendment to Section 26.
And Section 26 includes the Schedule.
I know. However, the particular power envisaged in Section 26 is the power of disciplinary control. I can envisage something completely different from what the amendment suggests. If there is going to be any contribution in any direction it would strike me forcibly that it might be in the reverse.
Hear, hear!
Let us face reality. I am not going to be associated with swashbuckling expressions of threatened annihilation or anything else. Let us take the question on its merits. For a moment, leave out the extraneous argument which has to be resolved with regard to the question of ultimate control within the club itself. However, take the club as an entity, performing the functions set out in Section 26. I do not think the amendment set out by Deputy Briscoe would achieve any purpose other than the complete stultification of the efforts these people may be able to make to develop the industry. Deputy Briscoe may have a perfectly reasonable argument on the questions of the constitution and personnel of the club. But, if it is going to keep various types of records, if it is going to be responsible to the board for much of the administration and record detail of the greyhound industry generally——
And collecting fees.
I know. Do the central registry office in Hume Street not collect racing fees and so forth?
There is no analogy.
With respect to Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll, I do not think she understands the distribution of prize stakes and contributions made in prize stakes from the Racing Board towards the general set-up. I presume this section is really designed to try to make the same pattern effective within the greyhound industry. There is no reason why we should contemplate it as being anything else. It would be very fortunate if the fees and all that are collected under the Schedule would defray what the administrative costs of this scheme will be within the club itself. I can see that, far from their being able to make a contribution, they will ultimately be looking to the board for a subsidy to keep them going.
I cannot see any reason for heat on any side in this matter. In the present successful operation of the Racing Board, you have a substantial contribution through the registry to the various prize funds throughout the country. It may well be that, again, through the pattern of Section 26, the coursing club will be able to discharge certain types of carriage fees for dogs to meetings as the Racing Board carries transport costs of horses to race meetings. It may well be that, as this pattern develops, that will be the design that will take shape. In that possibility, I say quite seriously to Deputy Briscoe that the amendment proposed by him would be defeating what might be a reasonable opportunity of success for this body. Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll interjected to say there is no analogy between the functions the Irish Coursing Club will have to perform and the combined functions performed by the different sections of the stewards, whether they be Turf Club or National Hunt, and the Registrar and Keeper of the Match-Book.
She is perfectly right.
She is not.
In what way is she right? I know that Deputy O'Malley has not a clue. I also know that if this contemplated body is the disciplinary body and the record keeping body, it will ultimately be the body which will recommend the size of the stakes in connection with the different types of prizes around the country. Surely it must be completely analogous to the bodies to which I have referred.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.