asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce whether the estimate of £25,000,000 made by the E.S.B. in 1954 of its capital needs to 31st March, 1956, has proved to be accurate; if so, how this capital outlay was financed, and, if not, if he will state the capital projects which have not been completed in accordance with the 1954 development plan, and the present position regarding these projects.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - E.S.B. Capital Needs.
Mr. Lemass
I am informed by the E.S.B. that its capital needs in the period 1st April, 1954 to 31st March, 1956 are likely to be less than the figure of £25,000,000 referred to in the question. Actual capital expenditure in this period on projects other than rural electrification is now estimated to total £14.6 million. This expenditure has been financed by way of advances from the Central Fund, use of the board's depreciation reserves, a public issue for £10,000,000 in October 1955, temporary accommodation from the board's bankers and the release of working capital.
The capital projects in the appendix to the explanatory memorandum published in March, 1954, scheduled for completion in the period up to 31st March, 1956 and not yet completed are Ringsend No. 3, Ferbane Nos. 1 and 2 and Lanesboro, all of which were scheduled for completion in 1955-56. The revised date on which these projects are expected to be completed are December 1956 for Ringsend No. 3 and Ferbane No. 1, March, 1957 for Ferbane No. 2 and October, 1957 for Lanesboro.
Mr. Lemass
Can the Minister give the reason for the delay in the completion of the generating stations?
As the Deputy knows only too well, this matter is within the competence of the E.S.B. The position at the moment is that they have a greater generating capacity than they are able to sell.
Mr. Lemass
Is the Minister telling me that the estimate they made of their requirements in 1954 was all wrong?
The Deputy made the estimate, not the E.S.B.
I know the E.S.B. told the Deputy that they did not hope to complete the targets he had in mind by the dates they had in mind. The only decision I can find on the files is that, although they told him that, the Deputy, when he was Minister, decided to press them further—to do what, I do not know. The position now is, at all events, that they have a generating capacity greater than they can sell. Whether I should ask them to create a still further generating capacity which they still will not be able to sell is a matter for the Deputy's economics.
Mr. Lemass
What the Minister then is telling me is that the board's estimate of the requirements of the market for power has proved to be wrong. Am I correct in that assumption?
I have to leave that to the Deputy because the transaction took place when he was in office.
Mr. Lemass
Are the board being pressed back or forward now? Which is it?
The Deputy made a botch shot of it.
Mr. Lemass
I tried to press them on. Are you trying to press them back?
The Deputy made a botch shot of this.
This board, as the Deputy knows only too well, was pressed to carry out projects about which a discreet silence would be the best at this stage.
Mr. Lemass
There certainly will be no silence about this. What is holding them up? Are you holding them up?
Perhaps a white elephant is.
Mr. Lemass
Stick to the pink elephants. Do not mention white elephants.
Let not elephants cloud the Deputy's vision of this matter. Have not I explained to the Deputy that the board have a generating capacity greater than they can sell? Wait a second. This is a matter for patience, not petulance.
Mr. Lemass
Then, their estimate of the market was wrong? Is that right?
The Deputy's estimate. The Deputy's estimate was wrong and the Deputy's temper was wrong and the Deputy's judgment in this matter, as in a number of other matters, was wrong.
Mr. Lemass
Was it not the board that made the estimate of the growth of the demand?
I am informed by the board—and I did not appoint the board; the board is the Deputy's board——
Mr. Lemass
I am not taking that responsibility on my shoulders.
The board informed the Deputy, when he was Minister, that, when they asked for permission to borrow £25,000,000, they asked that they might be authorised to borrow it and they said to the Deputy, when he was Minister, that it was a request for authority to borrow and not necessarily an estimate of their actual capital requirements for the two years in question. What the Deputy must understand is that they asked for authority to borrow this £25,000,000. They never indicated that they expected to spend that £25,000,000. That was an estimate of what they should be permitted to borrow and not what they intended to spend.
Mr. Lemass
It is an estimate made to me by the board of what they expected to spend by the 31st March of this year, if they went ahead with the programme as planned. Why have they not? Can we get an intelligent explanation of that?
The position is that the board have a capacity to generate electricity in excess of what they can sell. Do I understand that the Deputy's knowledge of electronics is that he wants to give them greater capacity to generate with lesser capacity to consume? If that is his point of view, who is going to pay for that?
Mr. Lemass
I am asking the Minister again a simple question: have the board revised their estimate of growth of demand for power since 1954?
The position is that, if the Deputy had asked the board at the time——
Mr. Lemass
Answer the question, yes or no.
In my own way, not in the way the Deputy wishes. The Deputy confused what the board asked as authority to borrow with what he believed was authority to spend. They could not spend that amount. They never asked for authority to spend that amount; they merely asked for permission to borrow. They could not spend it. They cannot now spend it and, unless they are going to put up electricity generating stations as monuments to the Deputy, I do not know——
Mr. Lemass
Will the Minister now answer the question?
The less questions the Deputy asks on this matter——
Mr. Lemass
Will the Minister answer the question?
The less questions the Deputy asks——
Mr. Lemass
Will the Minister answer that question?
I will answer until 6 o'clock this evening, if necessary. The board have more capacity than they can sell.
Mr. Lemass
Answer the question I asked. The Minister is answering every question, except the one I asked. Has the board revised its estimate of growth of demand for power since 1954?
The board cannot sell.
Mr. Lemass
Will you answer the question?
The board cannot sell.
The Deputy knows very well that he overrode the board.
The board cannot sell.
Mr. Lemass
Sit down. You are wasting time.
The Deputy should go down to Skreen and have a look at his folly there.
He is badly caught out.