Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Apr 1956

Vol. 156 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 56—Defence (Resumed).

Mr. Bartley

I think that, before Question Time, I said enough to indicate to the Minister for Defence what he, in conjunction with his advisers, ought to examine with a view to solving two or three problems with the one shot. The first point is the employment of these young naval men—to train them for the civilian life to which the Minister himself has suggested service in any of the Forces can be a very good preliminary. The second point is to provide a more efficient protection for our fishing fleet by having a type of boat that can berth at any of our harbours—harbours which are Lot available to the present corvettes— boats of a size that are not so noticeable on the sea as are the corvettes and therefore whose presence would not be signalled quite so easily and readily. The most important aspect, in my opinion, would be the training of these young men to become qualified skippers and mates of modern fishing boats, so that they would have no difficulty in getting straightway into good, profitable and remunerative employment on the termination of their period of service.

Having spoken about that, I think I have made the point which was most important, in my opinion, in relation to this Estimate. I have not much more to say, beyond asking the Minister, with regard to the equitation teams which have won laurels for Irish horsemanship abroad, to consider making these teams available for Irish shows much more frequently than has been the case in the past. A considerable sum of money is provided. I know it is very good for Ireland to have these horses and horsemen upholding the honour of our country abroad but I am sure the Minister will appreciate that our own people at home are very anxious to see them performing at their own local shows. I know they have, on occasion, done so, but I think there is a demand that they should appear oftener.

I do not wish to traverse any ground which has already been covered by any other speaker, but I wish to contradict Deputy Giles's statement about Fianna Fáil and the L.D.F. He said it declined under Fianna Fáil. He wanted to give the impression that Fianna Fáil wished it to decline, if it had not positively depressed it. Quite the contrary is the case. Deputy Giles will recall that, away back in 1933, this Volunteer force was founded. When the emergency was declared in 1939, that Volunteer force was a very useful adjunct to the national forces because it was immediately available and trained. If any criticism is to be offered savouring of political auspices, I think Deputy Giles's remarks will have to be reversed. I think he will have to alter his viewpoint——

Captain Giles

Look back over the history of the force.

Mr. Bartley

The fact is that Deputy Giles's remark was entirely uncalled for and unfounded and cannot be substantiated by the slightest tittle of evidence. If the spirit and the morale behind this force had any political urge, it got it from this side of the House. I resent that remark particularly because we have at all times set a premium on voluntary service.

Mr. A. Barry

I think it came from all sides of the House.

Mr. Bartley

Deputy Barry was not here when Deputy Giles spoke.

Mr. A. Barry

I was supporting this Party when I was a very prominent member of the L.D.F., as it was then, and a number of people agreed with me.

Mr. Bartley

Surely Deputy Barry is not suggesting that his one swallow made a Fine Gael summer in this matter?

Mr. A. Barry

Do not make it a Fianna Fáil one.

Mr. Bartley

Deputy Barry's remarks are not helpful at all. They are only adding an edge to the resentment I was expressing—and I was finished with the matter if he had remained quiet.

With regard to the question of social relationships and so forth, inside the Army, I do not know if they offer a topic suitable for discussion in the national Parliament. One can go a little bit too far with it, because ultimately you will be forced to examine the genesis of Army commissions. It might be just as well to let a matter of that sort rest, while recruiting for the Regular Army is at so low an ebb.

Let us put our shoulders to the wheel. We on this side of the House will accept the obligation which the Minister asked us to undertake in his opening remarks, that is, to back in every way we can the effort to get a sufficient number of young men to join the Forces. That appeal has the full backing of this Party.

With regard to the Gaeltacht, I want to assure the Minister that any young lad from the Gaeltacht I find going to England is always advised by me to join his own Army first.

Mr. Cunningham

There are a couple of points I want to mention. The first is that the Minister should increase the gratuities paid to members of the Reserve of Officers of the Defence Forces. In 1928, a lieutenant in the Reserve of Officers was paid a gratuity of £50 and to-day the amount payable is £30. I think there is something there that should be remedied.

Another question is that of the promotion of officers and men in the Reserve. One example is that promotion in the Reserve of Officers comes under the same heading as promotion in the Regular Army, which is that a second lieutenant has to serve two years before promotion to lieutenant, and, for promotion to captain, the period is eight years. A lieutenant of the Reserve serves only 21 days per year, with the result that it would take a whole lifetime, under the existing system, to qualify for promotion. I am not too familiar with this matter, but it has been pointed out to me that it is something that would require to be remedied.

General MacEoin

This Estimate has been availed of to air some of the difficulties with which the Defence Forces have to contend. I am pleased with the manner in which the Estimate has been received generally and I want to assure Deputies who have made suggestions that each and every one of them will be carefully considered forthwith and, where possible, the good points in them will be given effect to.

The question of policy and the intentions of the Government have been brought into consideration by Deputy Traynor and by Deputy Vivion de Valera. I want to say at the outset that there has been no change in the defence policy over the past six or seven years as far as I am aware. This Government is carrying on the settled policy which was decided on some years ago by its predecessors. There may be some alterations in detail, but the objectives of the Army and the training of the Army are designed on the lines of the policy then laid down which were agreed by everybody as being the settled national policy of the country. Having said that, I think I can leave the matter there.

It has been suggested that our entrance into the United Nations may have an effect on that policy. I do not think so, but, anyway, the Taoiseach speaking here recently, declared what the view of the Government on the matter is, and he pointed out that the obligations which membership of the United Nations imposed on us and the commitments involved were fully set out in the Dáil by the then Taoiseach on 24th July, 1946. He said that the only change between the position then set out and the present position is that, as the experience of the Korean war showed, the commitments as envisaged under Article 43 of the Constitution of the U.N.O. are not mandatory. That has now been clearly stated.

I presume that the Taoiseach will, at a very early stage, make a statement on that whole question and, therefore, I do not think it would be proper for me, at this stage, to take advantage of this Estimate to announce beforehand what the general policy of the Government is. It has been set out by him already and, as far as I am concerned, there is no change.

Deputy McQuillan, in his speech, gave a few rattles as to the proportion of officers to men and the proportion of civilians to officers and men. He forgets that the Defence Forces are much more elaborate than the permanent force and that the present day strength of the Defence Forces, as such, works out at about 47,000 all ranks. If he starts working out his proportion on these figures, he will find that the ratio will be considerably higher. There is an increase this year in the effective first line Reserve of over 500 men. That is something that we can be satisfied with and I should like, when these comparisons of officers and civilians in relation to men are drawn, that figure to be taken into consideration. We must be ready, on any occasion, to put the whole machinery into operation at once and you cannot start scrapping parts of it, and doing one thing, and then another, at different times.

I am very proud of the F.C.A. and I think it is a very effective force. I would not like any political tinge to be brought into it. It is a volunteer force, composed of all parts and sections of the community, and it is rendering very valuable service to the nation. May it long continue to do so. It would be a pity that anyone might do something or say something to make that force less effective.

While I am now on this matter, I should like to say that the design of the F.C.A. uniform is at present under very active consideration. When the design has been agreed upon, the uniforms will be manufactured from the improved cloth which I propose to put into them. I then appeal to the members of the F.C.A. not to abuse that uniform. It is the uniform of the State and the country and a uniform of which they should be proud. It is not the colour of the uniform or of the Flag itself that counts; it is what it stands for. The uniform these men wear stands for the nation.

A number of speakers here asked what was the use of the Army and what was its value. I think that should be clearly understood by this stage. The Army of this nation, and of every nation, is the gallant protector of the sovereignty and independence of the country to which it belongs. The uniform which soldiers wear is the symbol of the country to which they belong. It is a very important part of the nation's organisation.

In this country, as in every other country, the armed forces of the nation are the custodians of the nation's sovereignty and independence. When an officer accepts a commission in the Army he has vested in himself the power and the authority to defend the honour and independence of his nation. They are in his hands and he has to defend them with his life and with his rifle. Let me clarify that. If we are invaded and if the civil Government is knocked out completely and has to go into exile, as has happened in the last war elsewhere, where rests the authority or the sovereignty of the State? It rests in the commissioned officers of the Army. It is they who in the last analysis will have to negotiate and conclude either a truce or a treaty with the opposing forces, and no power on earth has any right to exercise that except the Army officers of the State commissioned by the elected Government of the country. In them and in them alone rests that authority.

No body of men, no matter how patriotic they think they are, have any right to speak or act in the name of the Irish people or in the name of any country except the duly elected Government or, failing them, the duly commissioned officers of the Army. If the whole personnel of the Army is killed, brass hats and all, down to the last junior lieutenant with his unit up in the hills, say, of Connemara or Donegal, in him and in that unit is vested the sovereignty of this country and it is he who has to negotiate that truce and that treaty. That is a very important matter and that is why an army is required in this or any other country because they are the final arbitrators and the final defenders of the country's rights and the country's authority to exist as a nation.

Mr. Traynor

The Minister should qualify that by saying that every member of the Government would have to be wiped out, too.

General MacEoin

I have said that if the country is invaded and the Government is wiped out, and the brass hats as well, and if there is one lieutenant, one commissioned officer left with one platoon, the whole sovereignty of the nation is vested in that one officer and in that one platoon.

Mr. Traynor

So long as the qualification is there.

General MacEoin

I thought I made it clear, that that would be the position, if the Government and the brass hats were knocked out, that the authority would go right down. That is why the commissioning ceremony and everything like that takes place, so that there is, as it were, the bestowal of that power. It follows from that that any person who wants to serve Ireland in arms has only one place to do so and that is in the armed forces set up by the State, under the authority of the elected Parliament and Government of this country. Let there be no doubt about it; anybody who attempts to resist not a foreign Power but the God-given authority bestowed on this Parliament and upon this country, is challenging that right.

In the light of that let me say that I want to see that the uniform of the Army and the F.C.A. will be as near as possible to each other so that it is the one uniform. There is this committee examining the design and while from experience I am always afraid of committees examining designs, because I saw so many of them in my time in and out of the Army and always have a worry about them, it is no harm to let someone work the pencil and the brush to see what they can produce and we can think about the results afterwards.

A great many points have been raised and I do not know how far I should go into them. Now that Deputy McQuillan is here I think it opportune to say that I subscribe to the view expressed by Deputy MacCarthy that it does not come well from anybody in this House to say that one of the reasons that we were able to remain neutral in the last war was that portion of our territory was occupied by some other Power. If we had the 32 Counties we would also defend that whole territory. There is no doubt whatever about that and there is no nation which does not realise that, weak as we are or weak as we may be, if the attempt were made to invade this country the invaders would always get the opposition they deserved and would always receive that opposition from the people of this country, no matter what the circumstances might be. I have absolute confidence in the youth of our country that when the nation calls they will serve the nation in the armed forces of the State under the Government of the State who, under God, are responsible for the nation's wellbeing.

If this Vote were for a greater sum there would be people who would criticise me for spending too much money and, of course, when there are some reductions, there is the criticism that I am coming down too low. The reductions are of a certain type, and Deputy Traynor is hardly fair to himself or to me when he says he does not like to see reductions in the Estimate for equipment. Since 1951, £5,000,000 of the people's money has been spent on defensive equipment; we are fairly well supplied with the type of stuff we can get so that we cannot spend very much more in that direction.

I am satisfied that we have got the best value for our money. A lot of money is spent in this direction and we must make a survey to see where we stand. There is still here a sum of £441,000 for defensive equipment which after all is nearly as much as the Minister could spend in normal years on defensive equipment. I know that if I could manage it, it is not £7,000,000 we would be spending but nearer to £70,000,000 to obtain all the things we would like to have. We must remember that effectively to defend this small island would require nearly as much if not more defensive equipment than Britain requires to defend herself and there are a good many hundreds of millions of pounds paid for British defence. We cannot follow that and there is no use in our talking about it.

We must have a plan for defence which is well within our means and I am glad to say that over the years—it did not spring up in a day—we have had a very good staff and their defensive plans for this country are, in my opinion, first rate. I do not take credit for having done that but I do claim that I was part of the institution which initiated it. It was carried on by the previous Government from 1932 onwards and carried on again by us, and the general staff of the Irish Army to-day is equal to the general staff of any army in the world and that is not boasting too much. It is a big boast but I have that confidence that we have all the ability that you could get in any force in the world. Therefore, when they come down to putting it into operation, all that we can do or all that the Government can do is to try to give them all the material we can to put that plan into operation. That plan is designed within our means. That is a big step and I think they are to be congratulated on it.

On the naval side, we had expenditure last year which is not recurrent, and this year we expect to purchase a store and training vessel. The final decision has not been made on it yet. There are two seaward defence boats now being provided and, generally speaking, headway is being made in that direction.

Mr. Traynor

Authority was given for that before I went out of office and it is unfortunate that we are still looking for the seaward vessels which I think were then available.

General MacEoin

I do not want to say too much about that. I will say that the negotiations for the purchase of these vessels have been unavoidably protracted. I will not go into the reasons for that, but it was not anything that I or the Government could prevent.

Mr. Traynor

That is unfortunate.

General MacEoin

Of course, Deputy Desmond says that I should have scrapped them and bought two other ones, but, as the Deputy knows, that was not and is not possible. I just do not want to get into that. We are making headway with it and I hope that as time goes on we will be able to make advances in the service that is required from the Navy.

Some people talk about smaller vessels. Do Deputies realise that men have to sleep on these vessels? While, on a nice calm day like this, it is grand and lovely to be in an open or small boat, Donegal Deputies or Mayo Deputies will know how nice it would be to be out in the open sea in one of these little cockle boats when it is hard enough for the corvette to survive in the open sea. Remember, when they are called, they must go. When people talk about smaller, smarter and swifter boats, where do they think the men who have to man them would live? You would have to get a society for the prevention of cruelty to sailors if you started that sort of thing. There is no sense in it. We have to get the material that can be used to the best advantage.

The question of the jet planes has been both approved and criticised. I want to remind the House that when we have an Air Corps it is essential that they should be trained in the most modern equipment. If war broke out to-morrow and our Air Corps were not trained and did not know anything about the use of jet aircraft, where would we be? It has been suggested here that we should have sent our officers to other Air Corps for training in their jets, to have them as mendicants at the door of some other country. Surely that is not seriously suggested by anybody? I get annoyed with that sort of thing. Training in jet planes is important for the reason I have mentioned but there is another reason. That is, that the development of civil aviation is such that it will be jet planes that will be utilised in the near future and we want, as far as possible, that Aer Lingus and the civil aviation in this country would be manned by reservists of the Irish Army and not by reservists of any other army. We want to try to have a supply of pilots for our civil aviation companies so that we will have a reserve of pilots of our own in our own country. Is not that only natural?

Mr. Traynor

That is the proper aim.

General MacEoin

Of course it is. When somebody says that all this expenditure on jet planes and that sort of thing is an extravagant outrage, it may be. The whole thing is extravagant, if you like. Of course, the cheapest way we could do it would be to go back to mother England and get mother England to put her arm around us and she would protect us for nothing. That does not appeal to me. I do not know anybody to whom it does appeal. Apparently, there are people in this country who think— innocently—I know they do not mean it—because somebody flies the kite of gross expenditure on jet planes, that it is a shocking thing altogether.

I saw a letter written by a responsible individual saying that he was terribly perturbed about the purchase of the jet planes and that the expenditure was outrageous. Somebody said here to-day, "first things, first". One would think that that was not a first thing. Of course it is. If we were to take the advice of the writer of that letter, we would go back to England and say: "We cannot protect the 32 Counties or the Twenty-Six Counties and, unless you come and do it for us, we are sunk." I hope that situation will never arise in this country. I hope that nobody will ever think along those lines.

The question of houses for soldiers was raised. We are proceeding as rapidly as we can on that. I want to point out that there is a responsibility on the local authorities to provide houses for the citizens. The soldier remains a citizen. When a married soldier is living in an Army house and when his service ends, we have difficulty in getting alternative accommodation for him. The better we make the houses, the harder it will be to get them out. There is not a day that I go into my office that there is not an appeal to leave a soldier, whose service has terminated, in the house for another month or another six months, which means keeping another married soldier out of it. It is a problem which can be solved only by co-operation between the local authorities and the Department of Defence. I ask local authorities to be mindful of their responsibility in that matter. They have the responsibility of housing citizens. We will make adequate and good accommodation for every single soldier. It is not easy but it is being done.

I opened a billet in Athlone last week which was designed by the Army Corps of Engineers. It was initiated by my predecessor. It is a great job.

The only thing I think about that is that the billet will be so comfortable that the soldier will not get married at all, that he will try to stay there. If the billet is made too good it may have that result. The billet in Athlone certainly is a first-class piece of work and I want to congratulate, as I have done publicly, all concerned in its building. In the Cork area, we will try to get houses built as quickly as possible, but these will be for serving soldiers, and, when the soldiers' time has expired, they must leave, and then we have, perhaps, a great hardship—as my predecessor can tell you—in Arbour Hill. It has been one of the headaches for all the years he was there and it is a headache for me also.

Deputy Corry and other Cork Deputies wanted me to distribute the land at Kilworth. We have no land at Kilworth that we could divide, or that is not required from time to time—or rather very often—by our Forces, but if the Land Commission, who have the authority to acquire land, consider a survey should be made of it, I have no objection. It is on that body that the statutory obligation of providing houses and lands for the people rests.

On the question of the equitation team going to different areas, I think we have settled on a very effective rule that the team should go to one centre in a county each year; otherwise, the horses will not jump when we want them for a function abroad. The horses can become stale and that is why we try to give a turn all round. It is very difficult when you have large counties like Cork or Donegal, Westmeath or Meath, with three or four big centres, when they think the team should go to every centre where they have a horse show. We cannot do it and we try to keep a fair balance as far as we can. I hope that will satisfy the people of Galway and elsewhere.

Deputy Traynor was perturbed about the reduction in the number of civilians employed in barrack maintenance. This reduction arises because all the big jobs we had on hands have been completed, and unless and until we have other works, we cannot very easily keep them there doing nothing. All I can say is that the old golden rule will be applied as it has operated for a very long time—the last in is first out. It is the only way. I want to be quite clear about that because it may create trouble for myself in a certain way. Some of my supporters will say that the Fianna Fáil Government was there for 16 years getting in their supporters, while these other men went in only last week and now have to go out again. I do not think I can help that. It is a fair rule to apply, no matter what the political views of the men concerned may be. They have to suffer in that way and I think it is a reasonable way.

I am not going to impose any hardship on members of the Old I.R.A. in relation to their employment, but I do agree that we should not be regarded as a social organisation for dealing with questions like this, or with all the various methods by which they should get compensation or recognition for their services. That should not be done on the grounds of retaining them when they have passed beyond their allotted period of service. Although we have a large number and it is not an easy problem to solve, as in the case of my predecessor, anything that I can do to assist them will be done.

Deputy Barry complained about the musicians getting out of the Army Band too quickly, and somebody else complained about people not being able to get out of the Air Corps quickly enough. This is always a difficult matter and the balance of hardship has to be taken into consideration as well as the human element. Perhaps I may be too soft—I hope not— but during a recent examination there were five or six vacancies in the Garda Síochána for bandsmen and a number of Army men applied for these and got them. I was faced with the problem then of keeping them in the Army while they wanted to go into the Garda, or allowing them out of the Army, and it was a difficult matter enough. Broadly speaking, I think the decision was made to the advantage of all concerned. We were giving the Garda something——

Mr. A. Barry

But all the men you lost did not go into the Garda; they went into the dance bands.

General MacEoin

The only people I allowed out were the people who were going to the Garda and if anyone got out on the ground that he was going into the Garda and went to John Muldoon's Band, I would take a poor view of it. He would still be a Reservist and I might be able to recall him, so that it might not be quite as nice as he would like it to be. However, only those five or six cases were concerned. There is, of course, a contract between the soldier and the State under which he has to serve for a specified number of years.

There are a number of other points, but I do not think I should go into them, except to say I can assure all Deputies that every item raised will be examined by me, and, so far as I can give effect to the wishes of the House, I will do so. Somebody thought that the Knights of Malta and organisations like that should get help from the Army. The Irish Red Cross is our official unit for the relief of distress and Red Cross work generally and has first claim upon us. It is voted a certain sum in this Estimate and I think everybody will agree with me that, in the floods of last year, the Irish Red Cross did a grand job of work, whether in Athlone, in Dublin, in Mayo, or wherever it was needed. As a voluntary organisation, they did very effective work and they are governed by the Red Cross Convention of Geneva. I believe the House will agree it would be better we should not start mixing up other organisations with the Red Cross. We have that official body to do such work and I think we should be satisfied with them.

On the question of better pay and conditions for N.C.O.s and men, everything possible will be done to make them better. I know that the comparison between the pay for serving N.C.O.s and men here and in Great Britain is striking and not in our favour.

Mr. A. Barry

Hear, hear!

General MacEoin

It is a question which the Minister for Defence and the Government will have to review, and at a very early date.

Mr. A. Barry

Hear, hear!

General MacEoin

I do not know what is the best way to deal with it. I have my own views and all I can say is that I will submit a proposal to the Government on the matter and that the Government will decide it in due course. On the question of civil defence, it is important that the people should know what we are doing. Thirty-five courses have been given by the Civil Defence School. These courses were attended by 696 persons. There was a fairly elaborate plan for civil defence, but, as I stated earlier, a new development in nuclear warfare has changed the whole problem. Our officers who have been in Britain watching these developments have come back and have made a report to the Government and to me, and I am satisfied that with the proper organisation very great work can be done, even against nuclear war. As was said earlier to-day, very little can be said should we be the centre of a direct nuclear bomb hit. In a future war, if a nuclear bomb dropped within a certain distance of our eastern coast, the effects would be felt over a very wide area. It is then that our civil defence people could come in and render very great help for those who are capable of receiving it—those who are not knocked out completely.

No matter how bad the position is, a marvellous amount of work could be done by our civil defence people, and all we can hope and pray for is that we will not be in the centre of the striking spot. Even then, there is a great lot of help which could be given. This civil defence programme must be so deployed in various points of the country that it will be ready and capable of giving assistance and help, should the necessity arise. God forbid that it ever should. Even if it does, we hope to be in a position to render very valuable service. I do not want to frighten anybody and the best I can say is that, even under the worst circumstances, I believe the vast majority of the Irish people living in Ireland would still be alive after it.

The plans for such defence are being developed at the moment and I hope it will not be too long until we get under way again with the lectures. I want to express my appreciation to the Government of Great Britain for the manner in which they have given us the opportunity of studying in their schools the problems attached to nuclear warfare. They made provision which enabled us to get all possible information and I think it is only right to say we appreciate it very much.

Mr. A. Barry

Would the Minister make some reference to the old retired Army pensioners whom I mentioned?

General MacEoin

That would arise on the next Estimate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It does not arise on the Army Vote.

Vote put and agreed to.