Deputy Moran gave notice that, on the motion for the Adjournment, he would raise the subject-matter of Question No. 35 on to-day's Order Paper.
Adjournment Debate. - Mayo County Council Loan.
On to-day's Order Paper, in Question No. 35, I asked the Minister for Local Government:—
"Whether he is aware that the Mayo County Council, at their last meeting of 14th January, 1956, decided to apply for a loan of £200,000 for the purpose of financing a housing project under Sections 9, 10 and 11 of the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1952, that the application, with all the necessary documents, was forwarded to his Department on 21st February, 1956, that the council have not received a decision to date, and that 1,200 applications are held up because the council has no money to deal with them; and, if so, if he will make a statement on the matter."
I have read the Minister's statement and I must say that it is both misleading in its contents and inaccurate as far as Mayo County Council is concerned. The Minister says that the borrowing of £200,000 proposed by the council was sanctioned on the 16th March. I want to point out that the borrowing of £200,000 was not sanctioned, as far as Mayo County Council knows, and has not yet been sanctioned. There are some members of Mayo County Council in the House. Deputy O'Hara is there and I am sure the Minister's colleague, Deputy Kenny, is in the House also.
He certainly is.
I was disqualified.
Perhaps Deputy O'Hara may be technically disqualified but I know he takes a great interest in housing in Mayo. I know he is in the same position as I and the other Deputies from Mayo are in, that we cannot tell the people whether the Mayo County Council can finance their housing programme or not.
I want to point out that, as far as Mayo council and my colleagues and myself on the county council are concerned, we have no intimation from the Minister, officially or otherwise, that our application for the borrowing of £200,000 has been sanctioned. The first intimation that I have had of this is in the Minister's reply.
I want to deal with this matter in a reasonable way. In January of this year, when Mayo County Council decided in their wisdom that £200,000 was necessary to deal with their housing programme, I expressed some doubt on the feasibility of it in view of what has been happening here in Dublin. I wanted to know could we get some definite decision from the Department as far as our housing commitments were concerned. I waited patiently to see could we get any indication from the Minister's Department as to whether our £200,000 would be provided out of the Local Loans Fund. I carefully refrained from raising any question in the House that might in any way embarrass the Minister or his Department. Our only concern in this matter is to provide houses for the people, to go on with our housing programme.
I am speaking now about the provisions under Sections 9, 10 and 11 of the Housing Act, 1952, under which we have 1,200 applicants held up in County Mayo since last January who can get no money. People are coming to me telling me their contractors are threatening to issue civil bills and writs against them in an effort to collect the money which these people cannot pay. They entered into these commitments on the basis that we were providing these funds and we understood we would be in a position to provide them under our resolution at the meeting of January last. We estimated our commitments for the immediate future at £200,000. We were prepared to pay over that money and the council in their wisdom passed a resolution sanctioning it. Whatever doubts I expressed at that meeting, my colleagues assured me that housing would go on and that we need not worry.
I made it my business, before putting down this question, to go into the local authority and find out from the officials if they had received any word from the Minister or his Department. I asked them could I tell these people, who were asking me this question, that they could go ahead. They said: "No. We have no intimation from the Minister or his Department as to whether this money is coming or not." The result is that they cannot pay out one penny. There was some indication given to them by phone, I understand, which the Minister glibly passed over in his reply to my question, that of our £200,000 application £50,000 by way of temporary overdraft from the banks would be sanctioned, that when the £50,000 was sanctioned, not from the Local Loans Fund but by way of overdraft from the banks, this thing would be all right. They proceeded to do what I suppose, most local authorities would do—assume that it was all right and not only did they pay out the £50,000 but exceeded it by £25,000. They have paid out £75,000 on foot of what they took to be the Minister's word that everything would be all right. They are now held up and these unfortunate applicants who were thereatened with legal proceedings by their contractors, cannot get the money from the Mayo County Council.
I doubt that.
They have planned their houses and were relying on these grants which are not now available to them. What I want to know is, will these people be paid? Deputy Kenny interrupts me. It will be quite sufficient for my purpose if the Minister will inform Deputy Kenny, Deputy O'Hara and my friend, the travelling student of the Fine Gael Party, Deputy Lindsay, of the facts, so that they can tell the people of Mayo if they will get their money. It will be quite sufficient if the Minister will tell his friend, the Minister for Lands, what is happening so that he can tell the people of Mayo not only that he is satisfied about the position in the fiords of Norway and Sweden but also that the people of Mayo will be able to get the money for the purposes of the building contracts to which they have committed themselves. If the Minister will only tell the Mayo County Council in plain terms that he will ultimately give them this money then the position will be satisfactory, but not alone are people in the dark in relation to this matter but there is also the question of loans.
That is not related to this question.
I know, but I want to tell the Minister that unless we get definite information in Mayo in regard to loans he will find a question down next week in that respect. However, the problem is to know what the Minister proposes to do and——
And not to exaggerate it in any way.
If Deputy O'Hara thinks I have exaggerated, let him say so——
The Minister will shortly be called upon to reply and there are only a few minutes left.
——but I challenge Deputy O'Hara to stand up in this House and give the people of Mayo the guarantee that they can go ahead. Let Deputy Lindsay and Deputy Kenny do likewise and let them take the responsibility for saying it here.
All the proceedings must be through the Chair. You know that.
It may be.
I am calling on the Minister. He is entitled to ten minutes.
I want to give the Minister all the time he requires and I want him to answer this simple question: Can the people of Mayo go ahead and build? In the Minister's reply to my question he has sidestepped the issue. If the Minister wants to side-step the issue let him do so. If the Minister thinks that it might be too dangerous to commit himself in plain language to the ordinary countryman like myself, that is his business.
I shall call on the Minister now.
If the Minister thinks he cannot deal with the problem, he can take out the old grey mare, ride up to the Park and let the people decide it.
An application dated 21st February, 1956 for sanction to borrow £200,000 from the Local Loans Fund for the purpose of making grants under Sections 9, 10 and 11 of the Housing (Amendment) Act 1952 as amended was received in the Department on the 29th of February last. On the 2nd of March the council was requested to furnish statistical information—the number of grants allocated, etc.— necessary for the proper consideration of the application. This information was received on the 9th March. On the 16th March, the Commissioners of Public Works were informed that the proposed borrowing had been sanctioned and the issue of the loan from the Local Loans Fund was recommended. The council on the same day were notified in the usual terms that the Minister was in communication with the Commissioners of Public Works in the matter. That notification was sent to the county council in writing and not over the telephone as alleged by Deputy Moran.
Deputy Moran said they got no word.
Sanction to temporary borrowing by way of bank overdraft of a sum of £50,000 for the purpose of these grants issued on the 22nd February in respect of the period ending 31st March last. It is normal practice to sanction temporary overdraft for quarterly periods pending the completion of arrangements for permanent borrowing. In the present case, the county council has not sought an extension of the period of sanction for temporary borrowing nor have they given any indication to my Department that they are experiencing difficulty in connection with supplementary grant operations and if Deputy Moran——
They are waiting for you to give them the money.
If the position was as serious as Deputy Moran suggests, why did he not press the county council to seek an extension of the borrowing period? If they had sought an extension of the borrowing period or if they still seek it, pending a decision, I am prepared to sanction it.
Are we to borrow from the banks?
Why did you not bring down——
No Deputy in this House is entitled to interrupt another. That should be understood. No matter on which side of the House he sits, no Deputy is entitled to interrupt another when that other Deputy is in possession.
The passing of a resolution for borrowing is a reserved function of the county council and I understand that the necessary resolution for the extension of the period of borrowing for the making of supplementary grants will be considered by the council at their next meeting.
On Saturday.
I will deal with any such resolution submitted to me as quickly as possible.
Will you give us the money?
If any serious situation has arisen such as Deputy Moran suggests, if lawyers have threatened these unfortunates, then the blame lies with Mayo County Council and with nobody else.
Explain that to Deputy O'Hara; tell that to Deputy O'Hara.
I gave Mayo County Council permission to borrow £50,000 pending sanction of the £200,000 loan from the Local Loans Fund. I merely give sanction to borrow for a quarterly period. The quarter ended on the 31st March, and if any serious situation has arisen since the 31st March, all Mayo County Council had to do was to pass a simple resolution of its members saying: "Please give us sanction to borrow until the end of the next quarter."
From the banks?
That sanction would have been given by me by return.
Would you given it out of the Local Loans Fund?
This is the usual practice——
It is a most unusual practice to borrow from the banks for housing and the Minister knows that well.
I am referring to what has been the normal practice by my predecessors down through the years.
Will you give us the money from the Local Loans Fund?
Pending a decision as to what amount you get from the Local Loans Fund, I will give the county council sanction to borrow, but Mayo County Council have not sought that sanction from me.
Because they could not get the money from you.
If they do seek sanction, they will get it. If any clients are threatened with legal proceedings, they have to thank Mayo County Council for leaving them in that position.
Will the Minister give a clear answer to a straight question —will you give us the money?
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 6th June, 1956.