asked the Minister for Finance if he will state with reference to the 1951 Conversion Loan (a) whether any negotiations for the underwriting of the loan were entered into and, if so, with whom, and the date upon which the negotiations were initiated, (b) the date on which arrangements for the issue were finalised, (c) the date on which holders of the stocks to be affected by the conversion were informed by the Minister for Finance that a conversion was contemplated by him, (d) the terms of the conversion offer actually made, (e) the total amount of the cash bonus involved, (f) the nominal value of the stocks affected by the offer, (g) the total amount in respect of which the offer was accepted, (h) the total amount, for which repayment in cash was requested, (i) the instruments by which the Minister for Finance raised the funds to meet the liability arising in respect of the repayments demanded, the cash bonus payable, the expense of underwriting, and all other expenses connected with the conversion issue, and (j) the sources from which the funds were obtained.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - 1951 Conversion Loan Statistics.
The reply to the Deputy's question is as follows:—
(a) No negotiations for underwriting the conversion operation of 1951 were entered into.
(b) and (c) Preliminary notice of the intention to redeem the outstanding amounts of the stocks concerned, viz., 5 per cent. Second National Loan, 4½ per cent. Third National Loan, 4 per cent Conversion Loan and 4 per cent. Exchequer Bonds was given in Iris Oifigiúil on 13th April, 1951, and in Press and radio announcements on 14th April, 1951.
I beg the Minister's pardon, but I cannot follow him.
Nobody else can follow him.
Spell it out for them.
The reply to the Deputy's question is as follows:—
(a) No negotiations for underwriting the conversion operation of 1951 were entered into.
(b) and (c) Preliminary notice of the intention to redeem the outstanding amounts of the stocks concerned, viz., 5 per cent. Second National Loan, 4½ per cent. Third National Loan, 4 per cent. Conversion Loan and 4 per cent. Exchequer Bonds was given in Iris Oifigiúil on 13th April, 1951, and in Press and radio announcements on 14th April, 1951. Details of the conversion offer were contained in Press and radio announcements made on 1st June, 1951. Holders of stock were personally notified of the conversion offer by a notice dated 8th June, 1951. I notice the Deputy is not listening. Perhaps it was not the reply he expected to get.
He has gone asleep.
They were further reminded by a Press notice published in the four morning dailies on 5th July that applications for conversion were to be lodged not later than 7th July.
(d) The terms of the conversion offer were, briefly, that holders of the stocks concerned were allowed an opportunity of exchanging their holdings in whole or in part at par into 3½ per cent. Exchequer Bonds, 1965-70. Holders who accepted the offer received a cash bonus at the rate of £1 for every £100 of stock converted.
(e) The total amount paid on foot of the cash bonus was £163,264.
(f) The amount of stock outstanding at 15th July, 1951, in respect of the four loans called for redemption at that date totalled £20,662,400.
(g) The offer of conversion was accepted in respect of £16,326,396 of stock.
(h) The amount of stock for which cash payment was requested was £4,336,004.
(i) The statutory authority for the various heads of expenditure involved in the conversion operation was provided by the Government Loans (Conversion) Act, 1951, the Appropriation Acts and the Central Fund Acts.
(j) A sum of £2,205,926 was made available from sinking funds and the balance of £2,328,680 from the Exchequer to meet the liability arising in respect of repayments, the cash bonus and the expenses of the operation. Does the Deputy want me to read the reply again?
I want the Minister to appreciate the fact that we are not able to follow him when he garbles his replies.
I beg the Deputy's pardon. We cannot hear him.
The Minister did not stutter his reply.
Would you ask that gentleman over there to behave himself?
He is not a gentleman.
Order!
Am I permitted to proceed?
The Deputy is entitled to ask a supplementary question and should be allowed to do so.
Is it not a fact that the date on which the holders of stock in the Conversion Loan were given notice of the intention to redeem was 1-6-'51? The Minister has said in the course of an aside during his reply that this was not the reply I had expected. Is the Minister suggesting that I ought to have discarded the undertaking of my predecessor? Would the Minister say in reply to (h) of my question where did the Exchequer get the funds to meet a liability which arose out of an offer made by my predecessor?
In reply to the first of Deputy MacEntee's supplementaries, it was extremely lucky that his predecessor had made arrangements to have this conversion put into operative effect before Deputy MacEntee made his extremely damaging speech in this House on the 19th July, 1951.
So far as the matter raised in (j) is concerned, the balance of £2,328,680 was no doubt raised—though I have not the exact details here—by the Deputy by means of Ways and Means Advances obtained by the Exchequer out of the £20,000,000 Marshall Aid Loan Counterpart Fund left by Deputy McGilligan.
I have brought out what the Minister was trying to conceal. Is it not a fact that this conversion operation was a liability which we inherited from the Coalition and that part of the Marshall Aid Loan Counterpart Fund was used to meet the liability of my predecessor?
The Marshall Aid Loan Counterpart Fund was thrown by Deputy MacEntee by Ways and Means Advances into the whole of that financial year, instead of being utilised as it should to avoid inflation by merely supplementing normal savings. It was Deputy MacEntee's procedure, in throwing the whole Counterpart Fund into that financial year, that created the inflation in the end of 1951.
Will the Minister tell the House whether, in view of the failure of my predecessor's conversion operation, in view of the bankrupt condition of the Exchequer when we took office, where we would get the money except from the Marshall Aid?
£36,000,000 of a gift.
The Deputy knows well that his speech on the 19th July, 1951, was the turning point.
Tell the truth.
Mr. de Valera
Is it not a fact that the Coalition Government was using Marshall Aid funds at the rate of £1,500,000 per month just before they left office?
You used £36,000,000 in 12 months. That was over £2,000,000 per month.
The Deputy is quite well aware that the amount utilised by the previous inter-Party Government in their three years of office was less than the amount——
Mr. de Valera
Not in the three years.
If the Deputy does not want an answer, then we will not give it to him.(Interruptions.)
I cannot allow a Budget speech or a Budget discussion on the question.
Mr. de Valera
May I ask a question? I do not usually intervene.
I will allow the Deputy to ask a supplementary question.
Mr. de Valera
May I ask the Minister whether it was open to him for three years to use the Marshall Aid money? For what period before they left office was it open to them to use it? Was it three years?
Has the Deputy finished?
Mr. de Valera
Yes.
I do not want to interrupt him, as he interrupted me. If the Deputy likes to put down a question in relation to the exact monthly rate of Marshall Aid expenditure from the time of the opening of the Loan Counterpart Fund to the time of its exhaustion, I shall be very happy to answer.
I cannot allow this to continue. This could go on all day.
Mr. de Valera
I do not need to ask the question because I know the answer to it—£1,000,000 a month.
Your squandermania policy has left us in bankruptcy.
Question No. 21.