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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Nov 1956

Vol. 160 No. 10

Coast Protection Bill, 1956—Committee Stage (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following question: "That Section 11 stand part of the Bill."

I do not know whether it occurred to the Minister that the word "buildings" has not been mentioned at all in this section, which states:—

"(1) Simultaneously with or as soon as may be after the sending of a copy of a coast protection scheme by the promoting authority pursuant to paragraph (b) of sub-section (1) of Section 10 of this Act or by the commissioners pursuant to paragraph (a) of sub-section (3) of that section, the promoting authority or the commissioners (as the case may be) shall—

(a) serve on every person named in the scheme as a reputed proprietor, owner or rated or other occupier of any land proposed to be compulsorily acquired or substantially interfered with or of any easement, fishery, water-right, navigation-right or other right or of any private road or bridge proposed to be compulsorily acquired...."

It appears to me that there is no definition section in regard to land.

It is in the Interpretation Act.

I suggest to the Minister that having regard to the construction of this section if buildings were interfered with, the owners would be left high and dry in my opinion. The Minister might look into that matter between this and the Report Stage.

Another matter under this section that I object to is the provision made for serving notice by post on the people who may be concerned. I know we have had experience of this matter under the Electricity Supply Acts and similar legislation in which provision is made for service by post. On quite a few occasions it has happened that this notice has not been received by the addresses and people have found their land invaded by these bodies without any prior notice whatever. Sometimes the reason may be that there are a number of families of the same name in the same townland. That is common in the west of Ireland. On many occasions, service by post has proved to be a weak form of service. I have had experience of local authorities on a number of occasions when there was a loose provision like this providing for service by post. They went ahead without the people concerned getting notice that their rights were to be interfered with.

I suggest that in a scheme of this kind, which will obviously interfere with property rights, the Minister might consider ensuring that the people would be served personally. In my view, that should be done. I realise that in most cases the people will be aware of what is happening, but it is the odd case the Minister should provide for. Certainly from my experience I have no confidence in providing by statutory legislation for service by registered post in matters vitally affecting property rights.

In relation to the Deputy's first point, he will find that where "land" is used in this context, by virtue of the general provisions of the Interpretation Act, it would include buildings, but I will make certain that that is so. As far as his second point is concerned, sub-section (4) is the standard section that has been used all through in the Arterial Drainage Act, and in similar circumstances the commissioners would in such a case obtain certificates of posting. It would not be like the ordinary case of just dropping the letter into the letter box—formal certificates would be obtained—but I could not accept under any circumstances the suggestion made by the Deputy of personal service. I think that would be unnecessary and unsatisfactory. In the meantime, I will consider whether it is necessary to strengthen the sub-section otherwise in any way.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 12.
Question proposed: "That Section 12 stand part of the Bill."

This section seems to be torpedoing the Bill. By furnishing a report to the commissioners, as is requested under Section 12, there is a delay of roughly two years. First of all, the commissioners have to examine the report; then they have a public inquiry by a person appointed by the commissioners. When they have completed the examination under the sub-section and considered the report of such an inquiry, they have to consult the Minister for Local Government, the Minister for Industry and Commerce and such other Ministers— I do not know how many Ministers they have to consult. We had the example a while ago of one inquiry which is to report to the Minister for Local Government, but it is 14 months ago since the inquiry was held and we have not heard the report yet. If it takes 14 months for each of the Ministers to consider the reports in connection with this matter, I suggest there would be time to have three or four different Ministers sitting over there before there will be any report or before anything will be done. Section after section of the Bill seems to be there simply for the purpose of preventing anything being done. I defy even the biggest optimist in this country to-day——

That is the Deputy, judging by what he was saying earlier.

——to take any section of this Bill, study it, and, no matter how anxious he may be to get an erosion scheme through, to find that he will be able to get it going within ten years.

That is under Sections 2 and 3. Under Section 4, there is the same thing all over again. As soon as the notice has been served, the Commissioners have to examine the observations and hold another public inquiry. When that public inquiry is finished, the Commissioners have to present a statement of the alterations which they consider should be made and this has to be confirmed by the Minister for Finance. The whole thing might be called a delaying action. I wonder how long it will be between the time a local authority notifies the Board of its intention to proceed with the scheme and the time that scheme comes into operation under this Bill. I defy the Minister to say that it will be less than a minimum of three years and a maximum of 15 years.

I would call this section a torpedoing and delaying section. There are at least three opportunities in the section for schemes to be torpedoed and it winds up by saying that, after everything has been done, the local authority pays. Would the Minister tell us if he considers it necessary to have all this interminable delay which is bound to arise? In no other Act here has there been such opportunity for delaying as there is in this. As Deputy Corry says, a scheme can be done only after a minimum of three years and a maximum of ten to 15 years. If it gets into the hands of the local solicitors and into the hands of the courts——

The Deputy should be careful when talking about solicitors to look behind him as well as in front of him.

I could look in front and I could lay my finger on the Minister at one period in his life. I could say he was the person I was referring to or that he belonged to the profession I was referring to. But, in all seriousness, I have spent a considerable time studying this Bill and I have made marginal notes here. Under this section alone, there can be delays of up to 20 months. I speak from experience of local authorities and working with the Department of Local Government and other Departments for many years.

I believe the whole scheme can be torpedoed three times under this section; and it winds up by saying that the local authority pays for any expenses incurred by the commissioners up to that stage. All the cost of these inquiries and of the local attorneys who may be employed by persons owning affected property will have to be met. There is no doubt about that. In every local inquiry, it is either the local authority or the State that pays the full costs on all occasions. They pay the full costs of holding the inquiry and the full costs of both sides to the inquiry, so that the longer these inquiries go on the better. We have here the very same tortuous problem as we have in the acquiring of land and in the acquiring of rights.

Coast erosion may be a matter of extreme urgency and many of the problems may have to be tackled within 48 hours. Still, the Minister comes before the House to promote this Bill which, he says, will tackle the problem expeditiously. I cannot for the life of me see how he makes that out. I can see the situation arising in which the Minister for Finance finds the Exchequer confronted with having to pay out £500,000 or £750,000 for protection schemes and I can see these schemes being hung up. We can see these schemes being stalled and we all know what stalling in Government Departments is when it comes to a question of money. I would like the Minister to quote any piece of legislation which has gone through this House in the past 20 years which contains as many delaying tactics in every line of it.

I must say that I agree largely with what my colleagues have stated on this section of the Bill. I have not seen a more cumbersome type of section than this for a very long time. It would appear to me, from the manner in which this section is drafted, that there can be no end to the postponement of what may possibly be urgent schemes. To start off with, under the previous section, there is the necessary notice which must be given to an owner whose property may be affected. That is a period of two months. After that, you have the inter-departmental reports and inquiries, and it appears to me that there is no end to the amount of time that can be wasted in having a scheme go from one Department to another. These reports will of first to the commissioners and then from them to one, two, three or four Departments.

It appears to me that in a case where an inquiry will be necessary it should be quite obvious within a period of two months that it will be necessary. In that instance, the matter could be proceeded with quite simply, without the cumbersome procedure that is now laid down. Immediately the objections are received from the interested parties, it will be quite clear whether an inquiry is necessary or not. Such an inquiry is provided for here and I do not see why, if an inquiry is necessary, it should not be set on foot immediately the objections are received.

I assume that, like all other such inquiries, both sides will be represented to put their different cases and I do not see, under the circumstances, why these inquiries cannot take place at once. I do not see why a scheme could not be put into operation within a reasonable time. It appears to me that the schemes contemplated under this Bill will be of an urgent nature. Coast erosion, in any case, is as urgent matter, and I am satisfied that, if the machinery contemplated in Section 12 is left in, it might be three, four or five years before a scheme could be implemented. If every "t" is to be crossed and every "i" dotted in the passing of these reports from the commissioners to the Departments, I think that a man seeking relief under this Bill would be out in the middle of the Atlantic before he would get it.

Deputy Corry referred to the fact that the local authority has to pay for the cost of holding these inquiries, but it would appear to me that there is no provision made here for the people who are mainly concerned in the inquiries. I am taking the case of people who would be interested in valuable property rights and who would have to be represented legally at these inquiries in order to protect their rights. It would appear to me that what is provided for here is the cost of the inquiry and the cost of the gentleman sent down to preside at it; but there is no authority given here to pay the costs of the people who have to be legally represented and whose rights may be affected by the inquiry. I think it is only fair that, should these people be represented, provision should be made for the payment of their costs.

Taking the section as a whole, I entirely agree with what has already been said about it. To my mind, the section is unworkable and most cumbersome and one that will provide whatever Minister is in power at the time with unlimited opportunities for exercising delaying tactics. There is no reason in the world why the Minister and his advisers cannot slash the time provided under this section by 60 or 70 per cent.

I cannot see why this cumbersome machinery is provided for and I think the matter could be dealt with in a much simpler and more expeditious manner than is provided for here. I think it will be found that whoever will have to operate the section will be confronted with the position that, wherever you have an urgent case, some private rights will be involved and the whole business will be strung up and delayed. He will find that nothing can be done for years if this cumbersome machinery is left in.

It is amazing how Governments can manoeuvre when the necessity arises. In this case, we know there is no money there and we know that there is not the ghost of a chance of money, until we get rid of that Minister for Finance.

That does not arise on Section 12.

I want to give the Minister an example. I take the Local Authorities (Works) Act, introduced by the late Minister for Local Government and which concerns practically the same type of work, very largely.

Not at all.

Very largely.

Not at all.

I will guarantee one thing, that there was more money spent under that Act in 12 months than will be spent under this Bill in ten years, if the present Minister for Finance is in office. Can the Minister tell me how it was that miles and miles of rivers were cleared and cleaned and land of various owners was affected under that Act and there was never a law case? I did not hear of any owner of property suing anybody in connection with that Act. I did not hear of any of these matters that have been mentioned cropping up under it. About £600,000 or £700,000 was spent in the first 12 months under that Act. How was that done? Now we are presented with this Bill. Whom is it meant to benefit? What is it brought in for?

Deputy Moran, who is a member of the legal profession, has told us that it will take about two years to get through what is required in these sections. What hope have we of having anything done under this makeshift Bill? Can anything be done in this section to limit the periods or to cut out some of the red tape the Commissioners of Public Works seem to be so found of using? Everything must be watertight, trebly examined and examined by 15 or 16 of them before anything is done. Is the Minister prepared to do anything to shorten the period specified in this section so that something may be done within the next five years under this Bill to end coast erosion?

As I said just before we reported progress to deal with Questions, there is a fundamental principle involved here. I made it quite clear where I stand. I believe that, where private property is being expropriated in the public interest, there should be adequate opportunity given to the owner to make his case to the authority concerned. I believe that, where the property of a local authority is being similarly dealt with, again, there should be adequate opportunity given to that local authority to make its case to the acquiring authority or the disturbing authority, whichever one prefers to call it. I believe that this section gives a reasonable opportunity, and no more than a reasonable opportunity, to the owner of private property whose land may be acquired in the general national and public interest, but I am not prepared to provide that private property would be expropriated without that proper opportunity being given.

I suppose nobody will dispute that the rights of private property should be respected. There is no doubt about that. The Minister should consider making provision in this section, or in a new section, whereby, in case of emergency, the work might be done beforehand. That would be all-important in operating a Bill like this. Without such a provision, the owner of half an acre of land and his legal adviser would have power to hold up work for an indefinite period. There is no time-limit specified for any of the operations.

The Minister should provide, by a new section or otherwise, that when the commissioners declare a scheme to be one of urgency or emergency, all the machinery of this section and similar sections can be brought into operation after the work is carried out. There is nothing to prevent that. It will not make any difference. If there is compensation to be paid, which is the main idea in this, it can be paid after the work has been done. The work should proceed. That is all-important and that is the burden of our argument from this side of the House. If the Minister will undertake to consider that, visualising a serious emergency where delays would be disastrous, it would satisfy us.

It is quite clear that, if there was an emergency, this is not the Bill under which it would be dealt with.

There is no provision for an emergency.

This is for ornament; the other things are for use.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 13.
Question proposed: "That Section 13 stand part of the Bill."

Would the Minister explain what Section 13 means?

It provides the necessary powers for the executing authority in regard to the carrying out of the coast protection scheme for which the confirmation Order has been made under the last section.

This is an empowering section. After all inquiries have been held and delays have been made and everything else, this section empowers the local authority to do the work. Could there not be some omnibus provision in this section that, in the event of the commissioners declaring that an extreme emergency existed, the work could be carried out without the operation of the previous section?

Not under this Bill. It could not be.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 14.
Question proposed: "That Section 14 stand part of the Bill."

Section 14 deals with roads and bridges. There is no legal provision, as far as I can see, in this section, where a road must be abandoned and a new road made, to enable the local authority to acquire the land on which to build the new road. I should like the Minister to look into that point.

What is sub-section (1) (b)?

They may need to acquire land and I have been looking for that power, but I cannot see it in the section. It may be in it. If there is power to acquire new land, that is not affected at all. Supposing it is necessary to divert a road and build a new road two miles away.

The construction of a new road in the circumstances which the Deputy suggests would be part of the general scheme and therefore the powers would be included in the general powers that we have been discussing already.

To acquire land for a new road or a new bridge?

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 15.
Question proposed: "That Section 15 stand part of the Bill."

Would the Minister state if another inquiry takes place under this?

This is the normal provision for arbitration for providing the amount of compensation that is to be paid where property or rights are being acquired.

Will all that have to be done before the scheme is gone on with?

No. That is not necessary at all under this type of legislation. Once you have decided to take it, you carry on with your work, while compensation is being measured.

Has the Minister considered this question of navigational rights which I assume are some of the most difficult considerations to arise under this Bill? There is this question of having an inquiry or not having an inquiry. The Minister suggests an inquiry will not be necessary in many cases. I have seen where, for instance, when a causeway was proposed to be built by the Board of Works between one island and the mainland, they suddenly found themselves up against an objection by a couple of fishermen living on a remote island who claimed that if this causeway was built, their journey with their boats would be much longer than would otherwise be the case.

It appears to me that is the kind of difficult objection that may arise under this measure and from the point of view of ascertaining rights and for compensating for the disturbance of such rights, it would be simply impossible under the machinery provided in this Bill to cover what I have in mind. For instance, if you are going to serve people with notice who may have navigational rights somewhere beside the coast, you would want to have a great number of notices scattered across a great number of islands and a great number of people both on the mainland and off the mainland to deal with this kind of right. There is no provision in the Bill for the provision of any general notice that might bind these people and I suggest the Minister should have second thoughts on that aspect.

Does the Deputy mean private or public rights?

Public rights. I am speaking of public rights in the sense that there will be a claim by the individual from the point of view of damages affecting his individual private rights of navigation in respect of a certain passageway.

The Deputy, of course, is aware that navigation rights are mentioned in sub-section (1) of Section 15.

I agree, but what I am visualising is an instance such as I have quoted and which I think will be found in the Board of Works. It appears to me that this is the kind of thing that is likely to arise in this Bill.

The matter may be one of some little difficulty and we will look into it between this and the Report Stage.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 16 agreed to.
SECTION 17.
Question proposed: "That Section 17 stand part of the Bill."

Is the Minister satisfied that there is power here to guard against frivolous claims to an arbitrator under this section? Is there any power to limit the number of claims that may be made? I think more thought should be given to that. Members of local authorities are aware that, for instance, in the acquisition of water rights people probably 15 miles from the river will be claiming for some reason or other that their water rights were interfered with, although what was being taken was little or nothing. You can have this kind of claim coming before the assessor and the local authority having to pay the costs in every case. Even the costs of all the legal people must come out of the public funds. Not one shilling comes out of a private individual's pocket as a result of these inquiries, and the Minister is aware of that also. In respect of frivolous claims, there should be some saving clause to safeguard the public purse whether it is the local public purse or the central purse.

Deputy Moran will be able to assist the Deputy by explaining to him that, when frivolous claims of the nature which he suggests come before an arbitrator, the arbitrator does not deal with the costs in the way Deputy Allen thinks.

There is one thing certain, that this whole piece of legislation will be a gold mine for the lawyers all over the country. Anywhere there is a scheme brought in which is likely to come under this, they will fatten on it. It is better than a Housing Act. It will be nearly as good as a running-down action if many schemes come under the Bill.

Now we are told the lawyers are going to fatten on this. First, nothing was going to be done under the Bill.

The lawyers' offices will fatten on it.

It will be desirable for the Deputy to decide on which foot he wants to stand.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 18 agreed to.
SECTION 19.

Amendments Nos. 1 and 2, in the name of Deputy Allen, have been ruled out of order as tending to impose a charge on public revenue.

Am I entitled——

The Deputy may not discuss the amendments since they have been ruled out of order. They are not before the House.

Am I entitled to make representations on the matter?

The Deputy may, on the relevant section.

Could you, Sir, explain to me how amendment No. 2 came to be out of order, because, subject to your final decision, which I have no alternative but to accept, I cannot see in what way that amendment proposes to increase the costs on the State. The Minister need only give 10 per cent. or 5 per cent. if he so wishes under this amendment. I would like to be guided on this matter for my own information for the future.

The Deputy may not discuss the Ceann Comhairle's ruling on his amendment.

I am fully aware that the Ceann Comhairle is the final authority as to what is or what is not in order. Is it possible to have a matter arising out of his ruling referred to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges as to what is or what is not in order? I do not know whether that is or is not possible. I have never heard that discussed. Perhaps the Ceann Comhairle will come in on this later.

There is no necessity for the Ceann Comhairle to come in on this. The two amendments have been ruled out of order and the Deputy has been so informed.

Accordingly.

The next amendment is amendment No. 3 in the name of Deputy Allen.

If the other amendments are ruled out of order, it does not arise at all.

I understood that amendment No. 3 was out of order as well.

No. Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 are out of order.

It was never circumlated as an amendment.

It is on to-day's Order Paper.

I move amendment No. 3:—

To delete paragraph (e) of sub-section (1).

Under paragraph (e) the local authority is made pay. If we delete this, then I take it the Minister will pay the 100 per cent.

I do not think it will be quite as easy as that.

If we get this amendment carried.

Even so. What would happen then would be that the promoting authority would pay 50 per-cent. under paragraph (a) and there would be no balance. Therefore, if there were two authorities, one would not be able to get a contribution from the other, or, indeed, any contribution from a local body.

This is in relation to the two or three authorities that may come in. I cannot see any advantage in this now, since the other amendments have been ruled out of order. This was consequential on one of the other amendments being accepted, namely, amendment No. 2.

Amendment No. 1, perhaps.

That is so. If amendment No. 1 had been accepted, this would have been consequential.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed: "That Section 19 stand part of the Bill."

Under paragraph (a) of this section, the Minister for Finance may contribute such amount, not exceeding one-half of such costs and expenses, as he considers proper. The Minister is bound not to pay more than 50 per cent. We had the views to-day of other people who appealed to him here in relation to this. We had the views of the Rosslare Development Association. Their opinion is that it would be most unlikely that the schemes envisaged under the Bill would ever be implemented if the proportion of the Government contribution is not greatly increased.

Let us take any scheme under this and examine it out. I will take a town with which I am very familiar, the town of Youghal. The principal attractions there are the strand and the castle. They are being wiped out because of coast erosion. The estimated cost of combating that erosion is £46,000. Fifty per cent. of that under the provisions of this Bill would be £23,000 and one penny in the £ brings in £46. Now, one can envisage the temptation to the people of Youghal—

£92. The Deputy is wrong.

——to make up the funds for that and to find the money. We can see what hope there is under this Bill of that particular erosion problem ever being dealt with. The estimated cost of the scheme at Ringabella in Deputy Desmond's constituency is somewhere around £400,000. That would mean, provided the loan is got through, and all the rest of it—I do not know where it would come from now—something between 9d. and 10d. in the £per annum on the ratepayers of Cork to pay for the sinking fund on that loan. Deputy Desmond has eight or ten country councillors and even if they clubbed in with my area, that would only mean 14 county councillors out of 68—the other 42 being the boys who would have to pay. I wonder if the Parliamentary Secretary who comes from a North Cork constituency can envisage the county councillors in the Millstreet area being asked to pay 9d. in the £ for the next 30 or 40 years in order to remedy the coast erosion at Ringabella. Can he imagine those councillors voting for that? Can he imagine a councillor, having voted for it, ever hoping to get into the Cork County Council again?

We know what happened in East Cork.

I am giving the facts, as both the Parliamentary Secretary and I know them as ordinary country people. He knows very well that this section was introduced to render the Bill unworkable. No proposals will ever be put forward under this Bill and therefore there will be no necessity for any payment out of the Central Fund. I suppose the worst thing that can happen to a Government is to have nothing to pay with. The Government have no money. Yet they bring in this Bill, a Bill which should never have gone beyond the introduction stage.

Then why did Deputy Childers say you welcomed it?

I was busy getting rid of the Government. That is what happened to me. I am concerned with my own business here. I am giving the facts as I know them. Those facts were explained here on the Second Reading by Deputy Esmonde and others who spoke. Even Deputy O'Leary protested against the financial provisions.

On the Second Reading last Wednesday. Go and read it again. I read it to-day.

I was listening to him.

There was a very definite protest from Deputy Esmonde. Will he deny that he protested against this imposition of 50 per cent.?

Coast erosion is likely to continue until something is done.

The Deputy must allow Deputy Corry to make his speech.

One second.

The next time there is a by-election in Clare, I hope the Deputy will not be the cause of it.

There is no hope of a by-election, nor a general election either, in Clare. The Deputy should listen to common sense. I would ask him to listen to it for just one moment.

Deputy Murphy is not in order, unless Deputy Corry gives way.

Supposing people's property is taken away by coast erosion, will that not increase the rates in the area?

If it does, the Deputy can tell us all about it. I am inpossession at the moment.

It seems as if erosion does not touch you as it touches us in Clare. It is all very well coming in here talking about the ratepayers——

Order! Deputy Corry, on Section 19.

I want to point out that there is no hope whatever, because of this section, of any proposal ever being brought in here, for the simple reason that no county council or local authority in their senses would guarantee 50 per cent. of the cost of any one of those works. I have pointed out what the cost of one of them would be, taking the one at Ringabella. I will take others among them as we find them and what they would cost. Between South and East Cork, we have somewhere in the neighbourhood of £800,000 worth of reclamation schemes, essential schemes, and coast erosion schemes waiting. Some of those schemes were submitted by me when it was intended that coast erosion works would be done out of the National Development Fund. That was before the boys found out they had no money.

It was a pity the Deputy's Minister did not leave something in the Fund.

The Deputy would be surprised to know that there is a little in the "kitty" yet.

Deputy Corry, on the section.

That mug of tea you got this morning—you owe the Indian Government for it.

You owe the Canadians £3,000,000 for wheat to make the bread you eat.

They did not allow the Deputy into the Mansion House for two days and now he comes in here to talk about it.

We are interested only in the constituencies we are representing.

The Deputy should discuss Section 19.

I hold there is another reason why this Bill should provide that the whole financing of this matter would be covered by the State and not by the local authority. It is the very reason I put forward here this morning —that the State itself is largely responsible for this condition of affairs. The Departments of State, mainly the Department of Lands, are responsible. The Department of Lands came in here and the 1923 Land Act, a compulsory Land Act under which all this land was taken over compulsorily, was passed——

We cannot discuss the administration of the Department of Lands on this section.

I am discussing here the reason why——

You never said that when your Party was in power and we would have voted for it then, if you had said it.

——we have to find this money to-day and the reason we have these embankments unprovided for, and I am suggesting the reason is that the sections of the Land Act which provided that money could be withheld from the landlord for the purpose of keeping out encroachments of the sea, for the purpose of maintaining the embankments, were not availed of by the Department and the Land Commission. The result is we have now in this section power to compel the unfortunate people who are living on that land to contribute to the payment for those embankments. That is a worse condition still. The Bill is rendered worthless in the first instance, and those unfortunate people who have suffered down through the years through that criminal neglect——

Hear, hear!

——on the part of the Land Commission——

Criminal neglect on the part of the Fianna Fáil Government.

At the present time there is a beautiful scheme of embankments which has been done in Clare for which the ratepayers paid nothing.

There is a lovely scheme down in——

The State contributed £80,000 and the ratepayers paid nothing and, as a matter of fact, it was to relieve the ratepayers——

If Deputy Murphy wants to speak, would he please stand up?

I know what I am talking about, anyway.

Deputy Murphy——

We are not discussing Deputy Murphy.

I know, but in regard to one remark he made, that the State contributed £80,000, I want to say that is an example of the type of scheme that was done, something like the one I instanced to-day to the Minister for Finance when he said there was nothing done about coast erosion in our time——

That was not done in your time. We did that.

——and that one cost £90,000.

The Deputy should address himself to the section.

I am addressing myself to the section, but my difficulty is that we are getting unruly interruptions from the Minister for Finance——

And from Deputy Murphy.

And from Deputy Murphy. I would not forget the Deputy for the world.

We are on Section 19.

I consider I have given very good reasons why the 50 per cent. should be abolished and removed from this section, and I would suggest to the Minister that even at this stage, if we got from him some indication on the lines suggested here last night in connection with that 50 per cent, it might help to make this Bill in some way workable, but the Minister has made no attempt in that direction.

In (d) it is stated:

"There shall be a contribution by any owner or occupier of any of the protected lands consisting of the amount received or recovered pursuant to any agreement, between such owner or occupier and the promoting authority, providing for the making by such owner or occupier of a contribution towards such costs and expenses."

I wonder could we have from the Minister for Finance some reference to that? How much does he expect to get from the occupier of a holding who is supposed to benefit under this?

He will take any compensation he gets.

How much is he supposed to contribute?

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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