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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Mar 1958

Vol. 166 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Motion by the Minister for Finance (Resumed).

When I was speaking on this Vote on Friday last, I had said that the indications in the Estimate and in the speeches of many of the Ministers showed that the coming year would be one of retrenchment and probably of unemployment for the working people. I had also said that the keynote of Government speakers and of leading industrialists and manufacturers throughout the country during the last 12 months was increased production; that free trade was the bogyman used to suggest that workers must produce more or die.

The trade union and labour group recognise that it is the duty of all concerned in this country to see that we get the best return per acre per man in the economic interest of the country as a whole. Those of us who have any say in the direction of organised labour are conscious of our responsibility. I can assure the House that we shall always use whatever influence we have in endeavouring to see that this country will do its best in every possible way.

All Parties are agreed that increased production is the keynote of prosperity but how to get that increased production is where the difference of opinion arises. It can be got, as an endeavour is being made by Franco to get it in Spain, by some compulsory method. I would not suggest that the Government or, indeed, anybody else in this country should attempt to secure increased production in this way. When I said that increased production can be got by some compulsory method, I should rather have said that an attempt can be made to get it because I am very sure that any attempt at force or compulsion would be resisted to the utmost.

I would suggest that increased production must be the outcome of full co-operation between workers and management. To secure the cooperation of the working people employed in industry or in any type of employment the goodwill of the workers must be secured. It is, I suggest, the duty of the Government to promote that goodwill in every way they can. I said on Friday that they made an initial good step. The suggestion which came from the Government at a meeting between employers and workers for the formation of a national wage agreement increase was a sound one. By it the workers' side gave certain concessions and the employers on their side agreed to do likewise.

A national wage increase was agreed to. It has worked out very well and has prevented any disruption of trade or industry to any great extent. But, having done that, I suggest the Government blundered. I suggest that the mishandling of the Dublin docks strikes, which was simply carried on because of the Government's suggestions as to what should be done, was a backward step. A Government statement that State employees may not depend, as they did in the past, on the result of a determination of their case by arbitration is not helpful. These are not the methods to encourage workers to make a good start and co-operate in full in the promotion of increased production.

Denials that the unemployment position is serious, denials that there is an increase in the cost of living, are not methods by which working people can be induced to co-operate and give of their best. An honest appeal to the trade unions and working classes throughout this country will not go unrewarded. Organised labour must be consulted. They must have a say both in the manner and in the method by which the increased production is to be given. The Government should think long and well about suggesting to employers and workers the formation of a worker-management committee in every industrial concern throughout the country.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

As I was saying, the Government should endeavour to encourage employers and their workers to unite in the formation of committees at factory or industrial plant level. I suggest that these committees be known as "Production Committees" and that whatever powers are found necessary by these committees to carry out any necessary decisions should be given to them. I suggest they should be given any Government help which they indicate is required.

It is quite clear that such committees were formed in many countries during the last war and that wonderful work was achieved. During the height of her life and death struggle, Britain realised the value of the worker-management committees. Old class prejudice was thrown aside and old bogies forgotten because of the need for increased production. It is only necessary to read of the position in Britain at the present day in that respect to realise how successful that policy was. A furtherance of that policy here at the present moment is the only way by which increased production can be secured, certainly on the industrial side.

There are a number of causes why workers do not co-operate for increased production. One of the leading causes is the fear that the workers may overproduce themselves out of a job. It is very human for a worker to say to himself: "If I work hard and do more and do it better, then, before the end of the year, I shall find myself registering at the employment exchange." I suggest that these worker-management committees have a big job to perform. To a limited extent, I know what I am talking about. I have experience of meeting managements and putting to them the views of the industrial workers in their employment. The one fear that hinders attempts to improve averages is the fear that workers will become unemployed, due to their own activities.

It is necessary that workers' representatives should understand the difficulties of the management. It is necessary that the plans of the management should be made known. It is necessary that any assurances required by the workers should be given and that explanations required by the workers should be forthcoming. Above all, and in fairness, it is necessary that adequate compensation for the increased effort be arrived at. It is quite clear that an employer will cooperate for increased production. An increased dividend or profit will arise because of the fact that, if his overheads remain the same and his production improves, he has an automatic saving and, consequently, an automatic profit. We, who represent the trade unions in organised labour, know that it is necessary to compensate employees in industry in some way or in some form for what increased effort they put into their production. I believe it is essential that these worker-factory-management groups be formed.

All non-profit concerns are not the fault purely and always of the worker. When we study some industries, we see that the fault for non-profitmaking lies very often with the management. It is very easy to understand that in private industry. You may have an individual setting up an industry, developing it and producing excellent goods. In time, that man goes out of business. Almost automatically, the son or sometimes the daughter or sons come into the position of the father without experience, knowledge or even the wish to take over the position. Incompetency at the top or in the various steps from general management to the foreman is very often the result of favouritism and "pull" in the management grades. As I see it, it would be the duty of this management and working committee to indicate these difficulties and clear them out. I believe there is a wide field for increased production, if it were tackled in the right way.

While I have no special knowledge of agriculture, it seems to me that the problems of our agricultural policy should be dealt with in the same way. It is only normal that those engaged in industry and the bodies which represent them should be consulted by the Government. In the same way, the wishes and views and requirements of those engaged in agriculture should be examined and discussed with the people representing agriculture in its various forms—dairying, live stock, and so on. If I had anything to do with it, I would fix a standard price per barrel or per unit for a period of years, say, five years. The farmer is entitled to know that if he does a certain thing in a certain way, he will receive at the end of the period or the end of the season a certain fixed price, at least. It may be that the price would be higher if he has a good yield or if market circumstances are better at the time; but at least there should be a minimum guaranteed to him for his produce.

One of the things I regret, both in agriculture and in industry, is that, now that farms are becoming mechanised and industry is using more machinery, those in charge of operations, either in industry or on the farm, are inclined to reduce the number of people employed. I suggest that the money necessary to pay for the machinery should be got from the profits of the machine by the increased production which would be made available if the same amount of men were continued in employment as were there before the machine was bought. It is regrettable that when a farmer or an industrialist takes in a machine capable of increasing production, he counteracts that immediately by letting some employees go and by remaining at the same old level as he was at before he secured the machine. The only difference is that he is making his profits now by saving on the wages.

I realise I am not permitted to go into detail on any particular Estimate now, but from my own knowledge of the fishing industry, I believe that the increased production in fishing is there for the asking, if the markets were made available. In my part of southern Ireland, it is a well-known fact that those going out in the boats are told: "Do not bring in more than a certain amount, because if you do, they will not be purchased from you." It is the markets the people need. If they are made available, there will be increased production in almost every sphere of industry.

It would be wrong for me to pass from this Vote on Account without dealing with unemployment and emigration. I do not propose—as has been done here very often—to take them as two separate things. Emigration follows unemployment just as naturally as night follows day. I know—and God forbid it should ever change—that young Irishmen and Irishwomen, in the best of financial positions, in secure employment, will often desire to go further away to see the world. It is a good thing that they should so decide and I would not be a party to stopping them. If the spirit of adventure or enterprise encourages our people—our young people, in particular—to go into foreign fields to see new customs and understand new practices and if they pick up what is good there, when they return, as they eventually will, in the great majority of cases, our people can profit by it.

The main reason for emigration, however, the thing that drives them to the emigrant ship, is the fact that they are unable to secure sufficient to obtain for themselves and their families the ordinary comforts of life here in Ireland at the present time. I am sure that most Deputies listening to me will have got as I have, pitiable letters from constituents now in Great Britain and elsewhere. I have got them saying: "Deputy Kyne, is there any hope of your being able to get me a job at home in County Waterford?" That can be repeated by every Deputy, I am sure, for his own constituents. These men—fathers of families, husbands separated from their wives by having to live in two different countries—are anxious and willing to come back here, if they could secure employment; but if they are forced to remain in Britain and have to bring their wives and families over, in the course of ten or 15 years, they will become so intermixed with the British people that they will have lost the desire to return to employment in Ireland and will become permanently lost to this country.

I suggest, therefore, that unemployment be treated as a national emergency. I do not suggest that the present Government desires to see unemployment. That would be stupid of me. I believe that any Government would be glad to find a solution to the unemployment problem and that almost every Government this country had or will have must be anxious to see the people employed fully at home and contented. As in the case of increased production, it is a question of method.

I was disappointed to hear Deputy Bartley say on Friday that "we"— speaking for Fianna Fáil—"have hitched our wagon to the star of private enterprise." He said: "We are satisfied that unemployment will be solved only by private enterprise." I regret very much that the present position of unemployment should have to depend on private enterprise. From my knowledge—and common sense will tell this to anyone—private enterprise will operate only where a profit can be made.

If an industry which conceivably could employ thousands of workers could be formed here and which, at the end of the financial year, would show no profit, it would be very hard to get private money to start that industry. I suggest that, if such an industry could be envisaged, Government money should be provided; and then the dividends of that industry would be counted in the number of men and women, boys and girls, retained for employment in their own country.

I am aware that both of the big Parties are pledged to private enterprise and I am aware that what I am saying may not be accepted even by some of my own Party, but I am putting my views before the House in the hope that some of what I say may contribute, in some small measure, to the solution of the dangerous position that has arisen. Over 32,000 people emigrated from this country during the past 12 months. I know that when I speak of unemployment, I will be told that there are at present 81,437 people unemployed and that that figure is 8,000 less than it was this time 12 months ago. It is implied in that statement that there are 8,000 more people employed to-day than there were this time last year, but the fallacy of that was clearly shown when Deputy Michael O'Higgins was told, in reply to a question, that 24,000 fewer people were employed last year than in the previous 12 months. Taking those 24,000 people with the 8,000 less on the unemployment register now, I think I am fairly safe in assuming that those 32,000 people had to go outside Ireland to seek a living, to bring about the position we have now.

Let us have no more nonsense about it. Whether it is Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael or the inter-Party Government or the Labour Party who are in office, if there is unemployment and emigration, let us face up to it. Let us admit that nobody wants it, but let us seek to find the solution for it. I believe that if an all-out attempt were made, industries such as that at Whitegate could still be started. I agree with the Fianna Fáil programme of starting industries that will give continuous employment, that will show a dividend and be able to continue to give a living to those employed in them. I am not in favour of stop-gap measures, but I would suggest that with 80,000 starving people, there is a need for emergency measures in this country.

I suggest that this is the wrong time to cut the very Estimates that give employment, even of a temporary nature. The Government have a duty to the unemployed, to give them some measure of work to help to tide them over the difficult period. If Fianna Fáil have faith in their own statement that they are producing productive employment, what will be the use of producing it if by that time all the people needing the employment will have fled from the country? I suggest to the Minister that reconsideration should be given to that matter.

When Deputy Norton was Minister for Industry and Commerce and when he made a startling announcement that he was prepared to go into foreign fields for capital to develop our industries, he was laughed at and derided by others for daring to suggest that Ireland could not provide enough money for itself, but I would suggest that he struck the right note. I will be no party to people laughing at Deputy Briscoe seeking people to invest money in Ireland. I do not mind his antics if he brings back the investments. Whether it is the Lord Mayor of Dublin, or Deputy Briscoe, or Deputy Norton, or anyone else who is looking for foreign money, it does not matter. God knows we need the money and whatever industries can be established we need. I would appeal to the Minister to give the fullest co-operation he can give to facilitating the use of foreign money here for employment in Ireland. I would especially appeal to him to reconsider the question of temporary employment schemes over the period that is yet to come.

I believe this is going to be the worst year we have had in Ireland. All the indications in the part of the country from which I come are that the county councils and local authorities, who are by far the biggest single rural employers, are so cutting their estimates that the position, bad as it was last year, will be infinitely worse this year and there will be a need for Supplementary Estimates for sewerage, drainage, housing, roads and all the various things that go into emergency schemes.

There is just one thing I should like to discuss in regard to social welfare and that is what the Parliamentary Secretary said in connection with fraudulent claims. I suppose we all know that there are fraudulent claims. Would anyone suggest to me how a man with a wife and two children, who is on unemployment assistance and is getting 31/- per week as an allowance, could live without fraudulently working a few hours to keep himself and his family going? Would anyone consider him a criminal for doing so? I certainly would not. I would consider him a criminal if he did not work the few hours. Nobody will get any co-operation from me in obstructing a person who, by honest effort, adds to the 31/- per week, which he is allowed under unemployment assistance, to keep himself and his wife and family going. Surely we all appreciate that the average rent in the rural areas is 10/- to 15/- a week and that a cwt. of coal costs 11/-, and that light will cost another 5/-, and if he has to pay all that, he and his wife and children will have nothing to eat or wear—and then it is suggested that he is a criminal. Of course, the solution is that instead of the dole, he should be getting employment, or the amount of unemployment assistance should be such as to enable him to wait until work is available, without having to commit a crime to live.

I suggest to the responsible Minister that instead of pursuing this with the vigilance promised, he turn a benevolent eye as far as possible to crimes of the sort I have indicated. I am not upholding the man who works in full employment and who receives good trade union rates and at the same time robs the Exchequer and the Department of Social Welfare by drawing benefit. I should like to deal with him seriously, but it is quite a different matter in the case which I have indicated.

Of course, it will be asked how can this country afford it? Just again, as private enterprise enters into things only where it may make a profit, I would suggest that some investigation be made into the possibility of getting together the various types of insurances in this country and to use the profits that are undoubtedly made in some branches of insurance to support and contribute to better social welfare benefits for those who are unemployed. I made this suggestion previously to a Labour Minister for Social Welfare when he was in office.

I conclude with an appeal to the Minister. I appeal to him, now that he is considering his Budget proposals, to give whatever assistance he can by way of increased moneys to that defenceless group of people for whom I speak, the sick and the unemployed. I appeal to him to assist them, no matter what it would cost in the form of increased taxation on luxury goods. As I said already, if it is necessary for him to increase taxation on tobacco, to increase entertainment taxation or any other luxury taxation, I feel that at least he will have the support of the Labour group when he brings forward such proposals in his Budget.

Deputy Kyne has rightly emphasised the gravity of unemployment and has rightly pointed out to the House that it must be a prime concern of anyone in public life or, indeed, of anyone concerned with the maintenance of democratic institutions, to devise a means whereby in freedom we can secure that degree of full employment which is so universal under tyrannical systems of government, in the U.S.S.R., or in pre-war Nazi Germany. I think that we in this House sometimes forget that while Deputy Norton, when he was Minister for Industry and Commerce, sought foreign capital and while the present Tánaiste is also anxious to secure such capital and even Deputy Briscoe is travelling through the United States of America in search of foreign capital, we in Dáil Éireann are engaged in a most gingerly approach to the restricted amendment of an Act of this Parliament which is a standing notice to foreign capital from all over the world that it is not wanted here.

Is there not something grotesque in storming through the world seeking foreign capital while we legislate in Oireachtas Éireann that we will not let it in? If we are to arrest the attention of world capital to the desired extent, why do we not repeal the Control of Manufactures Act and take some other measure to protect any existing industries that fear the arrival of that foreign capital which we profess to be seeking? I often grow weary of the codology that goes on in this House. Nobody will ever face the truth and act upon it. Either Fianna Fáil wants foreign capital or it does not want foreign capital. If it wants it, it should open the doors to it; if it does not want it, then it should tell Deputy Briscoe to stay at home, unless he wants to earn an honest living as a propagandist for the United Jewish Charities which he has a perfect right to do.

There is, however, another aspect to this which, I think, Deputy Kyne has overlooked. Supposing we get in foreign capital, we have the manpower. Supposing we find the markets —and that at least we can attempt— we have got to face the fact that to operate industries in this country, 90 per cent. of the raw materials must be imported, and, unless we have the wherewithal to pay for those raw materials, the protected industries of this country cannot survive. Unless from day to day, from month to month, and year to year, we can meet the bill in foreign exchange for the raw materials of Irish industry, the factories created under protection in this country will shut down and the men who are working in them will be without employment.

I think many of us close our eyes to the fact, which was so strikingly demonstrated not so long ago, that if we cannot import and pay for oil, no transport can now roll in Ireland, neither on rail nor road, and that oil has to be paid for with foreign exchange. The lubricants required to make the wheels go around must be brought in and paid for with foreign exchange. Let us not go so far afield as transport. How many people face the fact that no home in Ireland can function without imports, or at least function on a standard acceptable to our people? We have neither tea, nor rubber, nor cotton, nor metal, to mention only a few of the essential imports of the country, and there is not a home in Ireland which will continue to be called a home without these imports, every one of which is purchased only with foreign exchange. Without foreign exchange, they are not available to us, so that I think it is true to say that the livelihood of every worker in this country in industry, of every urban worker, depends in a large degree on the availability of foreign exchange. The standard of living of everybody in this country, whether he lives in town, city or country, depends on the availability of foreign exchange.

When we ask ourselves what is foreign exchange, whence can we make it come, the plain fact is outstanding that, for us, agricultural exports are foreign exchange, and that, without such exports, we must submit to being denied all the things to which I have just referred. I think of these things and I recall that two short years ago Deputy Childers, standing where I am now, pressed upon me that I was failing in my duty as Minister for Agriculture if I did not warn the people that the bottom was gone out of the cattle trade and that we ought to turn elsewhere in the employment of our land; Deputy Vivion de Valera got up behind him to answer for the performance of Pravda in assuring the Irish people that the bottom was gone out of the cattle trade and they had better get out of it and look to some other source of income. But, to-day, they realise that £50,000,000 in foreign exchange came into Ireland in 1957 from the trade out of which Deputy Childers and his envoys said the bottom had fallen and out of which Pravda under the leadership of Deputy Vivion de Valera was exhorting the Irish people to escape.

Then I turn to the debate on this Vote on Account and read that the same Deputy Childers, now Minister for Lands, God bless the mark, finds his heart raised and his courage reinforced about the future. He says at column 240 of Volume 166 of the Official Report:—

"There are many heartening signs of progress. Many new types of exports have been initiated in the last 12 months in our industries. We have had agriculturists who proceeded on their own with new exports. For instance the plans that have been announced in Wexford for the export of fruit juice..."

My mind goes back to the glorious day when the present Taoiseach summoned the public around him down at Arva in the County Cavan and told them that the British market was gone, and gone for ever, that they had better forget live stock forever more and start thinking up, just as the Minister for Lands is now thinking up, alternative agricultural activities; and, said the Taoiseach, he would like to offer them a word of advice: he understood that it was possible to keep bees and to produce honey, and his best advice was that the most prolific variety of bee was the Egyptian bee. That is on record in a public speech made at Arva in the County Cavan. But Deputy de Valera's bees and Deputy Childers' fruit juices will not produce much foreign currency to provide employment in this country.

Deputy Kyne spoke with feeling and understanding of the average workman who may be deterred from putting forward his best effort lest, in Deputy Kyne's homely phrase, he may work himself out of a job. I think the farmers of this country are a reasonable people. I think if they were approached to accept their share of common burdens they would not run away from them.

The Taoiseach, participating in this debate, said at column 343 of Volume 166:—

"We are now being organised throughout the whole community. The labour movement has been organised in the trade unions; the farmers are organised; the industrialists are organised; but if they spend their time in trying to get a little fraction of the cake, they will not make much progress. They must combine to enlarge the cake; then they need only the same fraction of it, and they would get a much larger slice."

I did not hear him give that advice to the bakers when he provided £250,000 to bring their profits up to par. I did not hear him give that advice to his Minister for Industry and Commerce when he endorsed a plan to provide for every industrial worker to get anything up to 10/- per week increase in wages to meet the increased cost of bread and butter, for which increase the Government proclaimed themselves responsible. Is it suggested that small farmers do not eat bread or do not eat butter? I did not hear the Taoiseach give that pious advice to manufacturers who are sending out notices every day of their proposal to increase their prices to meet increased charges.

Does anybody ask himself who pays the 4/6 per sack that the millers put on flour to compensate themselves for their extra cost arising from increased wages? Is it not the small farmers, whether they eat bakers' bread or cake bread? I did not hear him tender this pious urge of restraint to the industrial exporter who is to have an income free of income-tax in so far as he earns it in exporting merchandise. I did not hear him utter this word of restraint when it was proposed to spend £1,000,000 on a jet airway at Limerick or countless millions on a transatlantic airline. All these increases, with the exception of the airline, are justified directly or indirectly by the increased cost of living arising mainly from the increased cost of bread and butter.

Have the small farmers not felt the impact of the increased cost of living? Have they not to bear their share of all the other increased costs that I have read out? Ultimately all those charges filter their way back to those who live on and get their living from the land. And, yet, in the same year and at the same time that the exporter is to have his income free of tax, and the industrial workers are to get 10/- a week more to compensate for the increased cost of living and the baker £250,000 to restore his profits and the miller 4/6 per sack to bring his profit up to a satisfactory margin, the farmers are informed that they are to lose £2,000,000 in respect of reductions made by the Government in the price payable for their wheat, their barley, their pigs and their milk.

I want to remind this House that it was an uphill fight to raise the total exports of this country from £39,000,000 in 1947 to £125,000,000 in 1957. I want to recall to the House the success which attended the efforts that were made to expand exports in the last few years. There are those who have sometimes suggested that the farmers of this country failed in their duty and that agricultural output was static. Nothing is further from the truth. The farmers in the last ten years performed prodigies and, by every statistic that is capable of precise measurement, the record of the farmers in expanding production and production for export is truly dramatic. There is the overriding figure of an increase from £39,000,000 to £125,000,000, accompanied by the fact that that represents an increase in the volume of exports of over 100 per cent. In the last ten years we more than doubled the volume of our exports and we very nearly quadrupled their value.

Turn to the details of that performance. We increased the value of the wool exports from this country from £870,000 in 1947 to £4,000,000 in 1957 and, as reported in Volume 165 No. 4, we increased the output of wheat in this country from 1,468,000 barrels in 1947 to 3,220,000 in 1957. It is important to remember that we grew the 3,220,000 barrels in 1957 on 350,000 acres of land, whereas it took over 600,000 acres of land to produce the 1,468,000 barrels in 1947. We increased the value of our exports of bacon and ham from approximately £50 to £4,250,000 in 1957. We increased the export of live cattle from this country from 482,000, worth £15,600,000 in 1947 to 830,000, worth £45,700,000, in 1957. That is the trade out of which, Deputy Childers said, the bottom had fallen and that is the trade that Deputy de Valera and Pravda said we ought to clear out of as quickly as we could.

In the same period we increased the value of exports of beef, fresh, chilled and frozen, from £79,000 in 1947 to £6,000,000 in 1957. We increased the intake of creamery milk from 154,000,000 gallons in 1947 to 289,000,000 gallons in 1957, which is a record for all time. Our output of creamery butter was increased from 519,000 cwt. in 1947 to 977,000 cwt. in 1957, which is a record for all time. We increased the number of pigs delivered to the factories of this country from 306,000 in 1947 to 1,115,000 in 1957. We increased the export of creamery butter from nil in 1947 to £4,349,000 in 1957 and we increased the output of beet from 450,000 tons in 1947 to 794,000 tons in 1957.

I want to strike a note of warning. We have been traditional suppliers of the British market in butter and bacon back over the years into the 18th century. We lost our place in that market and there were many of our competitors who rejoiced to think that we would never be able to reappear there. By the efforts of our farmers we have reappeared in the British market with butter and with bacon equal in quality to that offered by any other supplier in the world. But anyone who knows anything of the international trade in these commodities knows that during the last two years every country in the world concerned to enter the British market has been heavily subsidising the export of butter and bacon to that market, and nobody on a grander scale than New Zealand, which country, I believe, has laid out over £12,000,000 in the course of the last two years subsidising exports to the British market. I do not profess to be able to disentangle the variety of schemes operated by continental countries to subsidise exports of bacon to the British market. They are extremely complex and highly confidential but that they function, I know for certain.

I want to warn the Government that if they create in the minds of our farmers the belief that that kind of competition will be allowed to operate upon them to their grave detriment, the result will be that we shall lose our exports of bacon and butter and with the consequences I outlined earlier for every worker in this country whether they live in town, city or country.

Why not give the Irish people cheaper butter?

We tried to do that and they did not seem to want it.

They will want it. They are getting less now.

That was our policy, but our policy was rejected, and I do not believe in chewing the rag. We were defeated; we went to the country, and we were beaten. But what I am trying to fight for is the salvation of the country as a whole and if the output of the land is suffered to go down, we are all going down with it, and if those who, by subsidies, seek to drive us out of the British market are allowed to prevail, it is not only the creamery farmers, the pig producers of Cavan or West Cork, who will suffer; it is everybody in the country whose livelihood depends on our capacity to import commodities purchasable only with foreign currency.

I ask the Minister for Finance, who had long experience as Minister for Agriculture, what effect does he think it will have on the minds of the farmers here, if they see that every section of the community is encouraged by the Government of the day to compensate itself for the increased cost of living and that they are authorised to collect a substantial part of that compensation from the farmers through increased prices, and, at the same time, the Government informs the farmers that, far from getting any compensation for increased cost of living or increased cost of production, they must lose £2,000,000, and this at a time when they elected this Government believing that they would increase the price of wheat to 82/6 a barrel, confidently believing that they would increase the price of barley and that they would increase the price of creamery milk?

We may argue until the cows come home whether they were justified in making these presumptions. The Minister may say nobody pays any heed to Deputy Corry, that nobody believes him, that he is perpetually talking through his hat and notoriously unreliable——

Or to Deputy Dillon, either.

The difference between us is that Deputy Dillon performs what he undertakes to do. I assert that Deputy Corry promised widespread that a price of 82/6 would be paid for wheat. Nobody contradicted him. We find ministerial pronouncements saying that "Justice must be done to the wheat grower". We find in the Fianna Fáil publication Gléas which was sent, of course, to Deputy Corry and to all other back benchers and they were required to acknowledge receipt of it and to promise faithfully that in the by-elections and in the general election, they would continuously repeat the contents of it—I have seen the circular—a paragraph—and it was read out in this House and the date and reference given—that the wheat industry of this country would be destroyed if the price fixed by the late Deputy Tom Walsh was not promptly restored. Was that not so? I take it that was repeated by the back benchers of Fianna Fáil at every chapel gate in Ireland and the front benchers, when the Press was present, used circumspect language to say that “justice must be done”, and if anybody wanted to know what justice would be done, they could go to the chapel gate——

Imagination on the Deputy's part.

It was not imagination. I arrived late for a meeting in East Cork and Deputy Corry was prowling up and down the street trying to wait so that he would have a chance of speaking after me. Then somebody told him I was not coming, and he wanted to get up before the Fine Gael speakers. That was in Killeagh. He leaped up on a lorry and started talking, and then he nearly swallowed his tongue because he was not rightly under way when I sailed into Midleton and I heard Deputy Corry telling the people that if he were elected, the first thing the Government would do would be to restore the price of 82/6 for wheat and 45/- for feeding barley. And I believe he believed that himself. I believe that the great majority of the farmers believed that also. I am certain that at some stage Deputy Allen believed it. Did Deputy Allen believe that? Deputy Allen is sitting in front of me now——

We will deal with all that later on.

Did the Deputy believe at that time that the late Deputy Walsh's price for wheat would be restored and that the price for barley would be increased?

The Deputy is speaking. Let him tell us what he believes now.

Deputy Allen is now in the position of a Minister speaking during an election campaign, because there is someone present taking notes, and he will print them, and Deputy Allen is being very circumspect. Was Deputy Allen as circumspect speaking in Wexford——

We did not speak at all in the campaign. We did not have to. We got three seats in Wexford without going out at all. It was not necessary.

Speaking does not take place only at the chapel gate. There is the half-door over which you can lean and say: "This is Dinny Allen coming to ask for your vote——"

I never spent an hour canvassing.

It was not necessary. There was none of us out, nor was there any need for it.

I spent 20 years of my life trying to persuade Deputy Dillon and his colleagues in Fine Gael and Cumann na nGaedheal to grow wheat. Now they want to grow wheat with the last shilling in anybody's pocket.

Not at all, but we want to ask the Minister for Finance this question: if you guarantee an increase in the wages of every industrial worker and guarantee an increase in the cost of every manufacture, guarantee an increase in the prices being paid for everything which the farmer has to buy and send out all your back benchers with Gléas, with instructions to say that the wheatgrowing industry is for ever destroyed, if Deputy Tom Walsh's price is not restored, what do you expect the farmers to do when the farmers find they are the only section of the community who are asked to contribute to increasing the size of the cake by undertaking themselves to take substantially less of it so that there will be more left for everybody else?

Quite apart from the economic consequences of it, such wholesale fraud as that strikes at the whole basis of public faith in public life here. If you successfully mislead and deceive a mass of the people and seduce them by falsehood into voting for you, parliamentary government in this country will be destroyed.

I want to say to Fianna Fáil now that they are making the greatest mistake in their life if they imagine that they can pronounce Joshua's judgment on the farmers of Ireland. Do not forget what that judgment was Joshua complained that the citizens of Gideon had misled him and for that he pronounced upon them the curse that for evermore they would be the hewers of wood and the drawers of water for the chosen people. Fianna Fáil takes up the position that because the farmers of this country have suffered themselves to be misled by Fianna Fáil, Fianna Fáil appoints them for the task of being for evermore the hewers of wood and the drawers of water for this community. But they have made one miscalculation. The farmers of this country will not be the hewers of wood and the drawers of water and, if they cease to produce, it is not the farmers of Ireland who will be the hewers of wood and the drawers of water; it will be all the other elements in this society that depend for their living on the raw materials without which they cannot earn their daily bread, and there is no one else to buy them but the farmers of Ireland; it is with their production that they are to be bought. The warning I want to give the Fianna Fáil Party is that they may tear down about their cars the whole economic structure of this country.

We were all agreed on every side of this House that the absolute essential was to expand the output of the land of Ireland. I think the figures that I have provided here have given an ample demonstration of the success that is attending our efforts. I warn them that the reversal of policy which the Fianna Fáil Government have undertaken at this time may bring ruin on us all and doubly so in the face of a farming community who, in my judgment, rightly believed, from what they heard Fianna Fáil proclaim, that they were going to get more money for milk, more for wheat, more for barley, and now discover that those who gave them that pledge have let them down.

I sympathise with but cannot too emphatically condemn the reckless reaction of certain angry men who, in exasperation at what they regard as base betrayal in respect of milk prices, have advised the farmers to withhold their co-operation from the bovine tuberculosis eradication scheme. I initiated that scheme but I want to say, with the fullest sense of responsibility, to every farmer in this country, large and small, whatever his sense of grievance may be, however justified his indignation may be, that he does himself and the nation injury if he contemplates withholding his full co-operation from a scheme initiated by me and adopted by my successor and most properly prosecuted vigorously by the present Government.

There is one other matter to which I want to refer. I do not want to go into detail but, inasmuch as I believe that the purpose present to the mind of us all, and for the reasons that I have outlined, is to maintain the increase in our agricultural output, I want to direct the attention of the Minister for Finance to a very serious anachronism which is developing in the bacon industry and which may react most disastrously on the total output of pigs. We have fixed a minimum price for Grade A pigs and we have fixed a minimum price for Grade B.1 pigs. There is no fixed minimum price for Grade B pigs. He must be prepared to face the fact that there can be fluctuations in that price but what is absolutely maddening to producers up and down the country is to find a price of 165/- for Grade B pigs in the West of Ireland and a price of 210/- for the same pigs in Dublin and in Cavan.

I do not underestimate the difficulty of maintaining some kind of uniformity in these prices throughout the country but it ought to be possible to call together those who process bacon and say to them: "It is manifest that we cannot tolerate a continual divergence of up to 50/- to 56/- per cwt. in respect of the same grade of pig in two centres not 70 miles apart." If the trade is not prepared to work out some levelling-out plan to maintain a reasonably level price for that grade in whatever part of Ireland it may be sold, then it will be time, in my submission, for the Minister for Agriculture to intervene so as to prevent that kind of wild instability which contributes very gravely to the present deep depression of the pig producers of this country.

I want to say a word in conclusion. I cannot protest too strongly against the detestable reversion of Fianna Fáil to its traditional policy of trying to make the farmers of this country the hewers of wood and the drawers of water. I want to warn them that it will not work and, if it is persisted in, it will bring the whole building down around our ears and those who will suffer most are the people who live in our towns and cities. I am not without hope that even so obscurantist an administration as this will wake up to that fundamental fact and I do want to say most earnestly to the farmers of this country that they should not have recourse to the supreme sanction available to them as yet.

They should continue to expand production. They should have faith in the traditional user of the land of Ireland. They should demonstrate that they are prepared to accept the obligations of their vocation and blessed situation as owners of their land but let them give notice to this and every other administration that, while they are prepared to bear their fair share of any common burden that the common good demands, in a year when the industrial worker is to have his wages increased, when the baker is to have his profits redressed by the Exchequer, when the industrial exporter is to be free of income-tax in respect of his exports, when the miller is authorised to charge the farmer 4/6 more, not in respect of any increase in his raw material but in respect of increased costs of production—in that year when the farmers' rates are rising, when the farmers' costs are rising, when the increased industrial costs charged upon his raw materials are protected by ever-rising tariffs, they will not consent to the proposition that those who live upon the land and get their living there are to be the only section of the community who are to be informed by the Government of the day that, not only are they to be required to bear all that increased cost without compensation of any kind but that, over and above the burden that the Government directs them to carry, they are to have superimposed a reduction in the price of wheat, in the price of barley, in the price of pigs and in the price of creamery milk.

Let nobody say to me that nobody else derives compensatory benefit from the Exchequer, because that is all cod. The economic effect upon the national life of Ireland of a protected industry is in no way different from the economic effect of a subsidised export. The only difference is that when the boot manufacturer, the bottle manufacturer, the brush manufacturer or the agricultural machinery manufacturer claims an increased tariff— and remember we have just passed an Imposition of Duties Bill putting increased duties on 20 different categories of goods—every one of them must ultimately be paid for by the farmers of this country. The only thing that means is that Oireachtas Éireann gives to the individual manufacturer the right to determine the economic price of his product on a free world market and to add to that price whatever margin will yield the manufacturer a profit and he requires the taxpayer of Ireland in his capacity as a consumer to pay it. That procedure has this great merit, that it generates by Acts of this House a silent tax but a tax which is as certainly levied, as certainly collected and as certainly received as any revenue duty in the Budget and the Appropriation Accounts.

In inverse pattern, we say to the farmer who sell his surplus production to our great advantage upon the unrestricted markets of the world: "We shall make up to you the difference between that world price and the price which will give you a very modest livelihood." We must remember that the agricultural labourer of this country is the lowest paid worker of any category, and do not let us forget in this House that 90 per cent. of the farmers west of the Shannon and north of the Boyne are living at the level of agricultural labourers. They are in no sense the affluent owners of land we meet in the East, SouthEast and South of Ireland, but it is of those people I am thinking. When the small farmer of Cavan, of Monaghan, of Mayo, or Donegal, presents his modest product for sale he is told to bring it to the public market in Great Britain or abroad and to take there for it what it will fetch. If he makes the same pleas that Sunbeam Wolsey, Gouldings or any of the other great industries in this country make that "we cannot live on that price,""we cannot feed our children,""we cannot make our fire to burn or our pot to boil unless we get a price which will leave us some margin over the cost of production that we have to carry, no small part of which is the tariffs we have to pay on everything we buy," he gets to-day a very dusty answer.

When we raise the money in Dáil Éireann by taxation and pay it out through an Appropriation Bill all hands are thrown up. The Taoiseach reads us lectures about balancing the Budget and the need for prudence and restraint. Do you expect men to go on accepting that situation? Is there nobody in this country who is to enjoy the benefit of an export bounty unless he drives a Bentley car? Look at the Department of Agriculture any day. There is a meeting of millers outside it. Look at the Department of Industry and Commerce any day. There is a deputation of industrialists calling to discuss their tariffs.

Or at the Church gate on Sunday in the country.

You will see no Cadillacs there.

That is what is wrong with Fianna Fáil.

That is what is splendid.

That is what is wrong with Fianna Fáil. To see a farmer in a 10-horse power motor car drives them mad. That is literally true. When I hear Deputy Loughman of Clonmel expressing his rage and fury that his neighbours, the small farmers, can go to Mass in a motor car, he must excuse me if I feel a corresponding rage at his attitude. Is there not something humiliating, something maddening that a senior member of the Fianna Fáil Party, recently appointed a Whip, proclaims: "Look at them coming to Mass on a Sunday in their motor cars. That is why we have cut the price of milk."

I did not say that.

"That is why we have cut the price of wheat. That is why we have cut the price of barley." In their hearts they hate to see the farmers of this country leave their ass carts behind. They believe that the farmers of Ireland ought to be in ass carts and clogs. They resent the fact that we lifted them out of the dirt in which Fianna Fáil left them. When the present Minister for Finance went down to talk at Enniscorthy he said he looked back over a long life and remembered many farmers' Parties. He said they always ended up where they belonged, in the ranks of Fine Gael. Was that not admitting the fact that farmers who left themselves in the hands of Fianna Fáil had left themselves in deadly danger? Being an old practitioner he has not the frankness of Deputy Loughman. I can understand Deputy Loughman. He lives next door to St. Peter and Paul's Church and on a Sunday when he looks out through his window I can understand his indignation that these jumped-up clodhoppers should be arriving in cars.

The last time I was in Skibbereen I met the parish priest—the Deputy will know whom I mean—and we looked across at the gate of the church in Skibbereen and he said to me: "When I was a curate in West Kerry I never thought I would see the day when I would find it hard to get into my own church with the farmers' cars outside the gates in Skibbereen." It did not make me angry. It made me rejoice because I remembers going to Ennis to speak at a meeting in 1951 and being greeted by an old man in that town who asked me what I was going to say. I said I was going to tell the farmers to keep a firm grip on their holdings; they were worth retaining. The old man said: "I was there when he said it," the day Parnell stood at the foot of the monument in Ennis in 1881 and told the farmers to keep a grip on their holdings. The old man said to me: "Mr. Dillon, the thing that stands out most in my recollection is that, as Parnell came into the square surrounded by the people, I marvelled that such a dandy of a man could command the love and faith of those people as he did because half of them were in their bare feet."

Those are the people who started our people on the road to the point that drove Deputy Loughman mad. They are not in their bare feet now. They are even on occasion in motor cars. The difference between Deputy Loughman and me is that I rejoice and he is shocked. I glory in it. I think that the people on the land should be the princes in this country. Deputy Loughman is resolved to make them the hewers of wood and the drawers of water. I glory in the fact that he will have no greater success with our grandsons than Clanricarde had with our grandfathers.

Now the Deputy will get it.

I often heard the speech which Deputy Dillon has made.

We all heard it before— several times.

You could not hear it too often.

There is not a word of change in it.

The only reason I cannot enjoy Deputy Dillon's speech is that I have a feeling that when he makes his speech he has rehearsed it and all his gestures five or six times in some very secluded place where no one could observe him. I come from a great farming county. When I spoke about industrialists and millers driving in motor cars to offices in Dublin, Deputy Dillon accused me of being antagonistic to the farmers. One side of my people are farmers.

The wrong side.

I glory in the fact that a number of them arrive at the chapel gates in motor cars and my hope for the farming community is that not only will those farmers who possess motor cars at the present time be able to drive to the chapel gates but that the people who work with these farmers will enjoy the same privilege.

When we start to make or assemble the cars.

That is right too. I come from a great farming constitutency and I claim to speak for the farmers of South Tipperary. The farmers and the people of South Tipperary sent three Deputies to this House. They did not send a farmer from the Fine Gael side of the House. In fact, they rejected a farmer who was put forward by the Fine Gael people at the last general election. If any of those sent to this House can claim to be a farmer perhaps it is myself who had 20 acres of wheat during the past year.

Let me deal with North Tipperary. We do not agree with boundaries. We only regard boundaries as being convenient for the purposes of an election. In North Tipperary there were two Fianna Fáil farmers elected and a Labour representative. They rejected Fine Gael. Deputy Dillon tells us that he represents farmers in this country and accuses a Deputy from a county which sent farming representatives to this House of being antagonistic to the farmers. Tipperary is predominantly a farming county.

Deputy Dillon may think he can blow about what he did for the farmers and what Fine Gael did for them. I remember 1931 very well indeed. When we talk about guaranteed prices, I often wonder were there any guaranteed prices in 1931 and whether the farmer had a guaranted price or market for any product.

He had not a price of 10/- for a calf.

You will get £25 for a calf to-day. When Deputy Dillon talks about the reduction in the price of milk, he forgets that fact. Leaving that aside, I well remember when we first started to try to get people to grow wheat. In 1931 we had 20,000 acres under wheat and in 1939, when the second world war broke out, we had 280,000 acres under wheat. I remember what Deputy Corry told us here to-day in regard to Deputy Dillon's attitude towards wheat. Deputy Dillon said that you would have to squeeze a loaf to decide whether it was polish or bread. That was Deputy Dillon's attitude all the time. I did not hear him say this but I am told he is on record as saying that he would not be found dead in a field of wheat. That may or may not be true but it is my belief.

I had many conversations with members of the Labour Party who formed the Government in Britain and if Deputy Dillon knew how these people regarded him he would not boast so much about his great activities for the farmers. I know that many of these Labour people in Britain thought Deputy Dillon was a funny man. Any of the Labour members to whom I spoke regarded him more as a funny man than a statesman. I am quite satisfied that is so.

I listened in the Dáil to Deputy Oliver Flanagan when the price of milk was being increased by one penny. Here is a summary of what he said. He said he resented the idea that there should be an increase to the rich farmers of Tipperary and Limerick.

Every increase of 1d. in the price of milk meant, according to Deputy Oliver Flanagan, an increase of 2d. in the price of butter to his constituents in Laois-Offaly. He protested vigorously against it. It was a cynical act on the part of Fine Gael or the inter-Party Government that this Deputy was the one they appointed Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture. I listened to him here the other day. I heard the cynicism, so far as the farmers are concerned, from the Fine Gael Party, and it has been that way all along the line.

Deputy O'Sullivan made a speech here the other day of the type which I had heard five or six times before in the debate. It was to the effect that Fianna Fáil gained the last election because of gross deception through their propaganda. He referred to a couple of speeches that had been made and a couple of posters that were displayed. He seemed to convey the impression that elections are won during election campaigns.

Faith, they are.

He also asserted that we won because of apathy on the part of the electorate. I have had pretty fair experience of elections and election campaigns. I have always believed that the actual election campaign simply aroused the people to go to vote. I have always generally recognised, and so have other people who know something about electioneering, that the people have already made up their minds when the campaign opens as to how they will vote. Elections are won between elections and not during the election campaign. If Deputy O'Sullivan believes that a couple of posters converted the electorate, he is greatly mistaken.

The next election must be won, so.

Since 1931, Fianna Fáil has been returned with a majority greater than that of the combined Parties in the House, on every occasion.

Once, I think, they were equal, perhaps.

What difference does it make at this stage of our history, anyhow?

Independents belong to no Party. I assert that we have had a majority over all Parties on every occasion since 1932. No matter what happens, it would seem that we will continue to have that support from the people.

"No matter what happens."

I said: "No matter what happens, it would seem"——

It has happened for the past 25 years or so.

Give it to them. The more you give it to them——

I remember that Deputy Flanagan held us up his hands here and asked God to forgive him for all the wrong he did while he was with Fianna Fáil.

Deputy Loughman might come to the Vote on Account.

If I will be allowed, then——

You were saying you had got them where you wanted them and that you can do anything you damn well like now.

That is the Deputy's interpretation.

That is what you said.

I was attempting to show, before I was interrupted, that the first time the farmer was put on Easy Street was when Fianna Fáil assumed office.

Was it by slaughtering the calves?

When we handed over in 1947, the farmers were in a more secure position than they had been in for the previous 150 years.

That is why they put you out of office.

I could argue about that election, if I wished, but that is not the reason why we were put out of office.

Deputies might allow Deputy Loughman to make his speech.

It was an interesting discussion.

The farmers got an opportunity of a fair livelihood from the Fianna Fáil organisation—and they proved that, as I have already said, at election after election. Even in 1947, the very year that Deputy O'Sullivan was talking about, it was here in Dublin and not from the farmers of Ireland that Fianna Fáil suffered defeat.

Now, now! That is outrageous. It was West of the Shannon——

There are other aspects of this question to which I should like to refer. Deputy O'Sullivan suggested that industry was battening on the rural community—in other words, that industry was being subsidised by the farmers.

What industry?

Here is the extraordinary thing about it all. The towns of Ireland are people by first generation farmers' descendants. I would say that 80 per cent. of the property-owners in any town in Ireland are the sons and daughters of the farming community and the same percentage would apply to the professional men in all those towns. It is wrong for any Deputy to suggest that the people in industry who are out to manufacture goods for the people of this country— employing Irish labour in the course of that process—wish to harm the farming community. We believe that industry must get a fair chance. We believe we must not allow goods from abroad to be dumped in this country and so retard industrial development here.

I do not like to talk about particular towns, but I could talk about many things. I know the wonderful benefit industry has brought to quite a number of towns in my constituency. I know men who went into these industries as young lads back in 1934—and I will now tell the Deputy something about them which he may not wish to hear. The members of the Fianna Fáil cumann of the town in which I live started the first industry there. At a meeting of the corporation of that town, subsequently, a person who was a Fine Gael candidate at two or three general elections said that that industry employed child labour and that slave wages were paid. I should like it to be known that I helped to write the letter repudiating that statement and pointing out that, while the people employed in it were young, the wages were even greater than those paid in similar factories across the water. I am happy that even the sons and daughters of some of those young people in that industry are working in that factory at the moment.

We started industrial development for the purpose of giving employment to the young people of our towns and the young people from rural Ireland who, on leaving rural Ireland, must go into the towns or emigrate. All our efforts have been directed towards that end. It is common knowledge that, in the years 1933, 1934 and 1935, these factories were called in this House "back-lane" factories and various other names of that description. I have seen Deputies on the Opposition Benches tear up some Irish hand-woven tweed in order to try to show that we could not make it here. I saw another Opposition Deputy break the handle of a spade here in an endeavour to prove that we could not make a proper implement. That was done at a time when we were trying to push industrial development in this country. We are delighted that all Parties and all our people welcome industrial development.

There are 14,000 fewer in industrial employment than there were 12 months ago.

Forget about the 14,000. What do Deputies opposite want to prove by that?

That fewer have been employed in the past 12 months.

Do Deputies opposite want to prove that the factories have failed and should be destroyed?

We are only stating the Government figures.

We stand for industrial development and the people of Ireland stand for it also.

Deputy Kyne's speech was a change from the kind of speeches we have had in the past four or five days. I do not agree absolutely with many of his statements. I should like to ask him what he means by saying that the people who over-produce are working themselves out of a job. Does he mean by extra production in the factories, extra production per person or extra production by a greater number of people? We believe that if we are to compete in world markets— and later on, perhaps, have world competition here—we must step up production in the factories, must get more per man and more per machine. I should like to see that happen.

We would all like to see that.

Deputy Dillon made a brief reference to air transport and our development of it. I remember that when the first shipping company was attempted here in Ireland, one of the greatest opponents of that development of a mercantile marine here was Deputy Dillon. He condemned the first three or four vessels purchased as "horrible hulks".

That is what they were.

He said they were not worth a tenth of what was paid for them.

They were not.

From those "hulks", as he called them, we have developed an excellent mercantile marine. Despite Deputy Dillon, I am hoping it will continue to expand. I hope also that the ground we lost when Fine Gael prevented our first attempt at a transatlantic air service will be recovered and that this air service will prosper.

It is a bit of a gamble, is it not?

Gamble is right, I quite agree.

I would not put my money on it.

When we started the development of the bogs and invested money in industrial enterprises here, they were all gambles. There is a reasonable hope that this will be a success and the amount of money which would be lost on it would not be so great, if it were a failure, as to impoverish us. I believe that Ireland, equally with other countries, should make an effort, at any rate, to provide a transatlantic air service. In fact, the only regret I have is that it was stopped when we first attempted to provide it.

Last year, we worked this country on the Estimates prepared by our predecessors. We stemmed the emigration drift. Deputies speak here about a reduction of 9,000 in the unemployment figure. The belief of many people is that, if Fianna Fáil had not got in, instead of a reduction of 9,000, there would have been an increase of, perhaps, 20,000.

How do you know that?

Everyone knows that. It is accepted here, anyway, that moneys were used, which should be spent this year, in the first three months of last year. These moneys helped considerably to keep the employment figure in those months.

Does the Deputy agree there are 24,000 fewer in employment?

We promised that we would try, in the five years in which we occupy these benches, to remedy the unemployment position. I believe we will succeed in doing that. We have done it before. We will make an effort to do it now, but whether we have the co-operation or abuse of those on the other side of the House, I hope we will succeed.

I always thought that the present Government made a very wise move in appointing Deputy Loughman as a Whip, the main purpose being to keep him occupied outside the House, so that he would not make a fool of himself and his organisation. He and his Party would be far better off if Deputy Loughman stayed outside, to ensure that other speakers of his own Party come to put the case for the Party.

I intervened for a moment last week to suggest that a series of long-playing records be made available to the Deputies so that they could record their speeches and have them used over the next three years, or whatever period this Government lasts. Deputy Loughman very fairly commented that I should remember that I myself should be recorded, as well as the members of the political Parties—and I agree with him. The same story has been heard in this debate as has been heard on every Vote on Account since 1948. I make no apology to anybody for repeating to-day what I said on numerous occasions here in the past. The only tragedy I see is that it is becoming a farce, a waste of time, to express views in this House.

We all expected that, as usual, some idea of Government policy in the future would be given in the opening speech by the Minister; but the Minister simply gave us a factual account of the money he was looking for and made a brief reference to certain changes which have taken place in the Estimate. It is not unfair to suggest that the reason the Minister made no real speech, in opening the debate, outlining Government policy, was simply the fact that the Government had no real policy whatever to offer the country.

I believe the Opposition at the moment are very sore with the Government, on the basis simply that the present Government ousted them with specific promises to the electorate and that instead of carrying out these promises, the present Government are simply following in the footsteps of their predecessors. In other words, it is a case of jealousy between the two sides of the House as to who should be in power.

I listened for a considerable time last week and I read the debates to understand what was said by speakers whom I did not hear. I am convinced that the present Government have no solution for the problems that face us, any more than the Opposition had when they were a Government last year. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael remind me of two punch-drunk boxers reeling around the political ring, clinging to each other at one moment, pathetically trying to punch each other the next moment and not a new idea of attack in their addled heads. It might be all right as a form of pastime, if the country could afford this carry-on in Leinster House, but when we consider that, after 36 years of native government and private enterprise our position as a country is more precarious than ever it was, then I think it is time that both sides of the House awakened to their responsibilities to the community at large.

I need not elaborate on the conditions that face the country at present —the result of haphazard planning and the pursuit of outmoded economic theories are quite apparent to-day. They are quite apparent from the fact that we have a declining population, an ever-increasing rate of emigration and a constant high level of unemployment. It is still more tragic to have this carry-on in this House——

I do not think the Deputy should refer to the deliberations of this House as a "carry-on".

Unless the Chair gives me a direction to do so, I have not the slightest intention of withdrawing it.

In deference to the House, the Deputy should not use the expression.

I can only describe it as a carry-on and I am restricted from describing it in the terms in which I should like to describe it. I think "carry-on" is only a mild description of what the people outside are saying is being said and done in this Chamber. It is tragic, at a time when economic expansion is vital to our survival, that the most enterprising and vigorous of our community are forced to leave the country through economic circumstances, that many thousands are unemployed and thousands more on half-time, waiting and hoping that the turn of the tide will come and that they will get a chance to make their living here.

If anybody believes that the conditions are not as bad as I have suggested, he has only to look at Question No. 27 on to-day's Order Paper which was put down by Deputy Noel Lemass, a supporter of the Government. In that question, he asks the Minister for Social Welfare if he is aware that unemployed persons living on the south side of Dublin City will not be considered for relief work, unless they have at least six child dependents. Imagine a position in South Dublin at the moment which compels a Deputy to put down a question in this House to show the difference between the north side of the city, where a man with three child dependents can get work, and the south side where a man must have six child dependents before getting similar relief work. Is it not a condemnation of the lack of effort on the part of this and other Governments to secure employment for the community when a man has to have six child dependents before he will get a lousy three or six weeks' temporary relief work from the Dublin Corporation or the Dublin County Council? In so far as I can ascertain what the views of the major Parties——

Should the word which the Deputy has just used be tolerated? He used the word "lousy."

The Deputy should not use any such word. The Chair did not hear the Deputy.

In deference to Deputy Haughey, I will substitute the word "miserable."

It does not make the period any larger.

In so far as I can discover anything in the line of thought between the two major Parties, I see, running through the speeches of the front benchers in both Parties, a similarity on two important points, a similarity of approach. Both major Parties seem to be obsessed at present with two objectives. One is that we must depend completely on private enterprise to solve economic problems here to-day. The other obsession which seems to be in the heads of both political Parties is the belief that it is absolutely essential that we secure equilibrium in the balance of payments.

I have listened to speakers on both sides of the House and both groups have dwelt at length on the vital nature of private enterprise and on the absolute necessity of ensuring equilibrium in our balance of payments. I propose briefly to deal with both points. Let us take first the question of private enterprise. Even though Fianna Fáil at the present moment, through some of their speakers, seem to give the impression that they are wedded to the private enterprise system as the be-all and end-all of our economic salvation, yet we find that quite prominent members of that organisation have only a very muddled idea of the implications of the so-called private enterprise policy which is at present in operation.

Last week, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance gave his interpretation of Government policy and said, as reported in the Irish Press of March 15th, in regard to unemployment:—

"They"—in other words Fianna Fáil —"believed it was necessary to channel the finances of the country that employment of a permanent character would result, rather than have a stop-gap type of employment that direct Government expenditure produced.

"That is why we have hitched our fortunes to the star of private enterprise."

I fail to see how the matter sentence is a follow-up—a Q.E.D.—on the former —"That is why we have hitched our fortunes to the star of private enterprise". I wonder whether the Parliamentary Secretary would suggest that Government action over the years, of channelling capital into the E.S.B., Bord na Móna and the Sugar Company, was waste of Government money or of the State resources. Was it into private enterprise that capital was channelled there, or was it into State enterprise?

There was not hitching of the Fianna Fáil wagon to the star of private enterprise when those very excellent State-operated schemes were put into operation. But, if we take the channelling of State capital into companies here in Ireland which are subsidiary companies of parent companies in England and elsewhere, as a criterion of what the Government's view on private enterprise is, we should now realise the disadvantages that may flow in future as the result of that application of our moneys. Many of the companies which are alleged to have been set up by private enterprise, but which were really started by either State loans or guarantees, have not yet made any attempt to get a foothold in any world markets.

It is quite clear why that position has arisen. It is due to the very simple fact that they are subsidiary companies which will not be allowed to go into competition with the parent companies elsewhere. I have only to instance one example, about which a great furore was set up in this House last year, namely, the processing of wastepaper. The Minister for Industry and Commerce told the House, when questioned why native wastepaper was not being utilised to the fullest extent by these processing companies, that they had, due to an agreement outside this country, to import a certain percentage of wastepaper to keep the factories going. The people involved were members of companies outside this country and their first interests lay outside this country. Consequently, in that instance and in many others, we are bound to suffer, if the climate abroad becomes worse than it is at the moment.

The parliamentary Secretary was not anxious to channel State resources into stop-gap employment. Nobody in this House is anxious to see State resources wasted in temporary measures, in providing temporary employment, but I can suggest to him that all that has been secured by the small farmers in rural areas over the past 30 years has been employment of a very temporary and very insecure nature, through relief schemes, bog development schemes and so forth. These were never anything but stop-gap measures and Fianna Fáil, over the years, poured money into stop-gap schemes in preference to spending time on planning a long term approach to full employment for these unfortunate people.

The trouble now is that even these stop-gap employment schemes have been reduced and for those unfortunates who were getting temporary employment up to now that work will be stopped. At the present time, there is no alternative for many people in rural areas but the emigrant ship. Many of the homes in the West of Ireland are kept going simply on the few pounds which are sent by sons and daughters from America and Britain. I know places in Galway and Roscommon where smallholders with valuations ranging from £2 to £7 or £8, are in a desperate plight for a week's work. They cannot get it; yet these are the people who the Taoiseach blandly suggests are not pulling their weight. He expects these people to produce more at the present time.

While the Parliamentary Secretary hitches his wagon, and I presume the wagon of Fianna Fáil, to the star of private enterprise as the best possible means of ending unemployment and reducing emigration, we have another bright light in the Fianna Fáil Party, the Minister for Defence, coming in here with another view on private enterprise. At column 132, Volume 166 of the Dáil Debates, the Minister is reported as follows:—

"If there was some way in which the Government could eliminate unemployment, I wonder why it was not employed during Deputy Sweetman's term of office. The fact of the matter is, of course, that there is a limit to what the Government can do in a private enterprise economy actually to provide employment."

Here we have a Minister in the Government telling us that, in a private enterprise economy, there is a limit to what a Government can do to provide employment. The Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Bartley, tells us that private enterprise is the solution to our economic problems, so far as unemployment and emigration are concerned.

The Minister for Lands is another sputnik in the Fianna Fáil organisation and for his views on this, I quote from the Westmeath Independent of 9th June, 1957. Speaking at Kilbeggan, he stated:—

"The Government had set its course resolutely to kill the idea that a Government could end emigration by spending money to give employment. It could provide employment for some but never solve the problem."

Let us take another prominent member of the Fianna Fáil Party, Deputy Haughey, as reported in column 157, Volume 166 of the Dáil Debates:—

"Full employment is the objective of the Fianna Fáil organisation. It always has been and it always will be. Fianna Fáil will never regard its work as completed until full employment has been achieved."

Those are the views of four different members of the Fianna Fáil Party, of four bright young sparks, four coming men in that political Party. These are the young men who are going to guide that political Party, when the old men go, and we know that, at the moment, they are trying to get rid of the old men, but they cannot agree amongst themselves as to private enterprise, or what they hope to achieve by it.

With Fianna Fáil, the solution to the problem of unemployment and emigration is always just round the corner: "March forward! Get round the next bend, and prosperity is round the next corner still. Put your trust in Dev and everything will be all right." As far as I can see, that is, and has been, the policy over the years. I have no doubt that it is the adoration at the shrine of private enterprise which has been the cause of many of our economic problems to-day. I have listened to Deputies blandly pointing out here that private enterprise has proved most successful in other countries and, to-day, I heard Deputy Dillon telling us that, no matter how desirable full employment was, we had to remember that the two countries in which full employment was achieved were the U.S.S.R. and Nazi Germany.

Deputy Dillon evidently forgot that full employment was achieved in Britain between the years 1945 and 1950, when a Labour Government was in power. Full employment in Britain was achieved not by the Nazi jackboot or the pitiless crushing methods of a Red Russian régime but by a departure from private enterprise and by placing upon the State the responsibility for initiating large-scale development schemes, schemes which helped to provide much needed employment for the desperate Irish emigrants fleeing from this country.

Up to 1945 the British had the great Churchill as their leader. No man ever left office with a higher or a better record, or a more glorious period of achievement in so far as saving his country was concerned. Yet, the British people, in 1945, said to their war hero: "Thank you for what you have done. We do not want you any longer to solve our economic problems. We do not want any Tory methods now. We want to put back into employment the hundreds of thousands who are being demobbed. We want a planned economy for the future." Mr. Churchill, great man and great leader that he was, was kindly told to retire from the political scene and a Labour Government was elected to put into operation a nationalist policy.

The result is apparent to-day and the present Tory outfit has not been able to reverse the process begun under the previous Labour Administration. Whether or not we like it, we owe a debt of gratitude to the last Labour Government in Britain for the work they did between 1945 and 1950 because they provided hundreds of thousands of our emigrants with secure employment and first-class wages. If that opening had not been available to our youth, I shudder to think what the consequences might have been for many of those who sit on both sides of this House to-day.

The situation which faces this country to-day is not due to the action of the last Government. The terrible drain of emigration, the scourge of unemployment, depression in business and everything else are not due to the actions of the last Government. The situation in which we find ourselves did not evolve overnight. It has been developing for years past. I should like Deputies now to cast their minds back a few years to just after the war. We had here teams from America—expert consultants on marketing arrangements, expert consultants on industrial development, planning and so forth. They came here in 1952 and two reports were made on conditions at the time. The first report was the Dollar Report. That report was made by U.S. consultants. The second report was the Ibec Report, which was made by the Technical Service Corporation. Both reports were excellent. They hit hard at conditions as they found them. They warned the political Parties that certain steps should be taken. They made recommendations as to how improvements could be effected. What happened? Instead of any action being taken, the reports were filed away and the dust of years has now descended upon them.

I remember Deputies getting up here and suggesting that these Americans knew nothing about conditions here; they were not entitled to criticise things here; we knew better ourselves. To-day we know that what they warned us about in 1952 has come to pass. We were hit hard in 1956 and we had been warned years before of what was likely to happen. Were we prepared? Oh, no. We introduced panic measures; we had a general election. We had the people shouting: "We shall put out the crowd that is in and give a chance to the others again; maybe they will change things." There was a belief in people's minds that this Taoiseach who is with us at the moment had some mysterious remedy for the problems that exist. They looked to him in the last election, more in desperation than anything else, to see if at last, at the end of a long career, he would be able to put into operation a policy which would ease the situation. The hopes of the people in that regard are fast fading.

Private enterprise is one of the obsessions of both Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. The other obsession is the maintenance of equilibrium in our balance of payments. We hear this cry from all Parties when they are in office. When they are in opposition, they are not too worried at all about equilibrium in our balance of payments. But the minute a political Party assume the mantle of Government, the first note of warning is that of the danger involved should there be any disequilibrium in our balance of payments.

What happens when political Parties change from Opposition to Government? I have no close association with any political Party, but, in my opinion, when that change comes, the Central Bank—this weeping willow— goes to work on the Government and frightens the daylights out of them with their banshee wailings as to the dangers involved if there is an expansion in credit, an increase in the amount of money available for capital development, or more money made available for old age pensioners and widows and orphans. The Central Bank and the Department of Finance come along with their gloomy warnings of disaster and each time the Government has kowtowed to this particular type of advice. No Government should allow its policy for economic expansion to be thwarted by the gloomy warnings of these human adding machines. "Get the balance of payments problem solved"—that is the cry.

We all know that over the years Britain's policy has been to make the Irish economy complementary to her industrial economy. The aim is to let us produce here agricultural products at depressed prices. We fell into the British trap and we have never got out of it. When speaking of the balance of payments, it is more apparent than ever that we are in the British trap. Deputy Dillon pointed out that last year cattle on the hoof helped to ease that problem for us. The fact that last year we had more cattle for export than ever may be thanked for solving what the Parties described as the grave problem of this disequilibrium in the balance of payments. We have the lotus-eating occupation, on the one hand, of opening and closing the field gates to let in and out the bullocks. On the other side of the picture, we have the wheat ranchers and exploiters of the land. That is what our agriculture has to face to-day.

Nobody here to-day will suggest that our cattle population is too high, but we should have more agreement on the fact that too high a proportion of the cattle population is going out on the hoof and that we have not concentrated half enough on the question of processing, of ensuring that the greatest possible benefits accrue to our people, rather than hand them over to our next-door neighbour.

Deputy Dillon spoke on the question on the price of wheat and criticised Fianna Fáil. The whole question of agriculture has been bedevilled by Party politics for 35 years. If Fianna Fáil have a sound approach on some aspect of agriculture, we have Fine Gael deriding that approach. If Deputy Dillon brings in what can be described as an excellent scheme to improve the lot of the farming community, we find the Fianna Fáil Party sneering at them.

The one main hope our country has is agriculture, and yet the political Parties fight like dogs over a bone as to who is right about this or that. If a man is ploughing and if the two horses he has are pulling against each other, we know the mess that will be made of the field. We know the mess that has been made of Irish agriculture because of the political Parties here pulling against each other for 35 years. We must have a truce in Party politics in regard to agriculture. We cannot afford any longer the day in which any political Party can try and use the farmers for political advantage, as they have been used. I hope the farmers will have enough intelligence to see that for themselves now.

Last year, the export of cattle on the hoof helped to solve a number of our problems. Everybody connected with agriculture took great pride out of the increased exports of cattle but we had not one word about the boats that left, side by side with the cattle, carrying out of the country the finest of our population. I am bringing all this back to the balance of payments situation. Over the last number of years, while the cattle were going out of this country and helping to solve our problems, we were at the same time exporting our young men and women. While we lauded the value of the carcase meat and the cattle on the hoof, we kept silent about the value of the human cargoes we were sending.

An English visitor in the West of Ireland recently queried a small farmer: "How do you manage to live here at all?" He got a very quick reply: "We export our children." That is quite true. That is how those people do live. As the Taoiseach himself said yesterday, we export from this country labourers, factory workers, skilled artisans, doctors, dentists, nurses, chartered accountants, scientists, engineers, actors, playwrights— we export everybody from the most untrained to the most highly trained. Many of the people we send abroad are highly educated and need no extra training when they go abroad. Their services are grabbed up eagerly by the countries lucky enough to get them.

The gain to the different countries is our loss on the double. Firstly, because we are losing the very type of people whose services are so necessary to build up this country, and secondly, because the loss of these people as consumers means a more restricted market for our home products, whether agricultural or industrial. Yet, while that loss of the best brains and best physical material in our country is going on, we have the sorry sight of the Central Bank and the Department of Finance sitting down each year to estimate how much money we are making out of the human cargoes that go abroad. We have the financial experts in the Department of Finance sitting down to add up every penny— and, in their opinion, doing it honestly —that has been made each year over the years by the emigrants, and all that money is put in the assets column. That money goes as invisible assets to help solve our balance of payments problem. Is that honest accountancy?

If we take the figure of £11.5 million for emigrants' remittances for last year and if we put that sum on the assets side of the page surely we are entitled to put on the liability side the number of emigrants? Surely we are entitled to put the capital value of those who leave the country on that side? But we do not do that. Instead, in order to pretend we are solving our balance of payments problem we use emigrants' remittances as so-called invisible assets.

I mention this because we have this unholy admiration for the alleged necessity of producing equilibrium in our balance of payments and we produce that equilibrium by dishonest means. I do not know what is the capital value of a human being at 31 years of age, but I would say at the minimum, it is £2,000, even for the most unskilled. Money has been spent here on every one of those emigrants, in health services, children's allowances and in various other forms, and we can safely take £2,000 as the minimum capital value of a human being leaving this country. If we take 40,000 of those at £2,000 each that is a loss of £80,000,000 a year in capital alone. Do we find that put down in invisible assets? No, there is not a word about it nor of the loss of these people so far as their productivity or their capital value is concerned. The honest bankers and accountants have no hesitation whatever in putting down as assets the money sent home by those who have emigrated to keep their unfortunate families going in Ireland.

Again in regard to tourism and the question of invisible assets, I went to the trouble of going through the methods by which the Government assess income from tourism and there is not the slightest doubt that 60 per cent. of the money put down to tourism comes from Irish people who come home on holidays to Ireland. These people are put down as tourists. That is dishonest accountancy and nothing else. If any Deputy wants to see how the calculations are made he will find it in the Trade Journal and Statistical Bulletin for September, 1951, where there is a long, intricate account of how the Government arrives at its findings concerning income from tourism. If anybody can show me that even 30 per cent. of the money set out there as coming from tourism comes from foreigners I shall eat the copy of the Irish Trade Journal for that month. To put it very simply we have reached the pathetic position here that the more people we can hope to export, the better the chance we have of balancing our Budget.

It is bad enough to have to talk about this terrible exodus from our country. Sometimes Deputies, myself included, wonder if we should bore the House by talking about it at all but when we find the Taoiseach going to London on St. Patrick's Day to address the emigrants, that is going a bit too far. We had the sorry sight of the Taoiseach addressing in pontifical tones the unfortunate emigrants that he drove out of this country for the last 25 years from the safe precincts of the N.U.I. Club in London. The Taoiseach did not go to Kilburn, Elephant and Castle, Stepney or Edgware Road or any centre where there is an Irish population. Judging by what happened, it was a safe move for him to go to the N.U.I. Club. I do not know whether or not it is right at this stage to pass a vote of thanks to the British police forces for protecting him——

That does not arise.

The Taoiseach had the audacity to appear in London and address Irish emigrants but did he give any hope that he would provide work here for them? Did he indicate that the emigrant ships would be filled on the way back to this country or did he depend on the Archbishop who spoke after him and said they wanted the Irish people there and wanted them to live in Britain?

Dr. Lucey of Cork spoke yesterday and I was glad to read his remarks— it is not often I agree with him. He said what I have said for many years —that it was a disgrace for members of the Irish Government to celebrate St. Patrick's Day in the way they do —abroad. They would be far better off here at home trying to get work for the people they have driven out over the last 35 years.

We have had lectures here on savings and we had a committee or body set up by the previous Government. That body went into print and went on the wireless calling on the people to save money—which they did not have —so that that money could be diverted into channels whereby employment on a permanent basis could be given and so that the Government could embark on capital development projects. We had very prominent people speaking up and down the country and publicity drives of all sorts to make people more savings-minded. What is the result?

At the same time as advertisements were appearing in the Irish papers asking the people to save more in order to create employment here, the Irish Sunday papers were carrying advertisements of the following nature:—

"More and more people are opening bank deposit accounts with Lombard Bank. Lombard Banking, Ltd., Head Office, Lombard House, Curzon Street, Park Lane, London."

That advertisement gave a very attractive account—8 per cent., stability, safety and success. It was published in the Irish papers side by side with the plea by the Irish Savings Committee for savings for investment in Ireland. Is there anything more lunatic than that? The papers that published these advertisements were making money out of both.

The Savings Committee is only a minor issue. We know that the people had very little to save. Consequently, we do not hear so much about the Savings Committee now but we had gloomy warnings about the necessity for credit restriction, the necessity to reduce Government expenditure, the necessity to prevent wage increases. These gloomy warnings occurred year after year in the annual report of the Central Bank. I shall not go back beyond 1952, when the Central Bank declared in as many words that there should be no further wage increases under the circumstances that existed. They advocated vigorous restriction of bank credit. The result of their gloomy warnings was that the Fianna Fáil Party came into the House and introduced a Budget that decided that people were eating too much and paying too little for their food. Every year the same warnings as to the necessity for credit restriction and the reduction of expenditure emanate from the Central Bank. Last summer, so far as the commercial banks were concerned, there was credit restriction.

As a result of the Government heeding the warning to reduce the amount of money for capital development schemes, there was a huge figure for unemployment and an ever-increasing figure for emigration. Side by side with that, each commercial bank has been showing every year a rising profit rate and, in spite of the bad year experienced by the Irish public last year, in spite of the fact that money was not available for desirable capital development programmes, every commercial bank showed an increase in its profits.

While the Savings Committee preached to the Irish public to put money into Irish industry, the joint stock banks and the Central Bank were investing over 50 per cent. of their money in British securities and outside the country. One would imagine that the Central Bank, which is supposed to safeguard our position with regard to finance, would set the good example so far as investment in Ireland is concerned. Instead, they set the bad example. We can ill afford to criticise the commercial banks if they do likewise, when the control that should be exercised by the Central Bank is not operated.

The views and criticism that I am expressing with regard to the Central Bank are not new. I am not the only person who has expressed such views. I would refer the House to recent statements made by the Tánaiste in this regard. I quote from a newspaper. I am sure the Tánaiste will be surprised to hear that he is mentioned in it. It is the Donegal Vindicator of Saturday, 3rd December, 1955. According to this paper, Deputy Lemass, as he then was, addressed the Rathfarnham cumann of Fianna Fáil on the question of banking and currency and stated that a central bank which really functioned as such would be of great help as an instrument of national development. That is one of his statements.

Another statement deals with the question of legislation and so forth to ensure that the Central Bank would carry out that objective. Deputy Lemass said:—

"It is my personal view that the cause of the weakness of the national effort does not lie so much in these matters or organisation as in the attitude of mind of those who control the supply of capital, the preference which exists for external as against internal investment, the loss of resources which the flow of Irish saving to external investment represents."

That is the view of the present Tánaiste, that the mentality displayed by the commercial banks and by the Central Bank is a wrong attitude, namely, that their aim is to invest outside the State rather than within the State. I shall not pursue that further except to ask how can we go to the ends of the earth, with cap in hand, to the Germans, the Swedes, the British, the Americans, asking for capital to develop this country, when we allow Irish capital to be invested abroad, to be invested in Britain, to be used by the British Government to give employment, as it does, to Irish men and women in Britain?

We have invited every Tom, Dick and Harry from the four corners of the earth to invest capital in this country. Not a week goes by but some helpful genius is on his way to America looking for a few bob to bring back to Ireland. It is all being done in the name of patriotism. What do we get back? So far, we have seen very few sound industrial projects set up in this country. Instead, all sorts of people are coming into the country and are being allowed and have been allowed to buy up house property and land, to buy in groups the ground rents of houses in the city. They are being allowed to take control of this nation's well-being.

If capital were brought in here for industrial development I would welcome it but I do not welcome the influx of undesirables, who show no signs whatever of putting money into industrial development here but who are more than anxious to buy up land and property. It behoves us to ensure that a stop is put to that alien invasion. While they are coming in in aeroplanes, the boats at Dunlaoire and elsewhere are packed with Irish people on their way out.

All we have been offered by this Government and the previous Government to solve any of the problems I have mentioned is private enterprise. "Give the businessman and the industrialist in Ireland—give the poor fellow—a chance to make money and if he makes money he will give employment." We live now in a more ordered society than that of 50 years ago. Deputy Booth put his finger on it here when he said: "Of course, 50 years ago, there was great scope for the employer to exploit the worker, but that day is gone." It is truly gone, but we have at the present time a far bigger problem to solve than mere private enterprise or the private individual can hope to solve. In his own way he may help, but if we take over the past 30 years the help that private enterprise has given, we find that it has fallen very far behind the State projects in helping to build up this country.

Nobody wants to suggest, nor has it been suggested in this House, that we should put an absolute doctrinaire socialist policy into operation, although a number of Deputies have sought to suggest that Deputy Dr. Browne has embarked on that line. Deputy Dr. Browne has made it quite clear that where private enterprise has failed to carry out its responsibility and its duty to the community, it is the duty of the State to step in and ensure that that industry will be run by the State in the interests of the community.

I make no apology for repeating what I have already said year after year, that when you have industries, which could be expanded to a tremendous degree, left as they are at the moment in the hands of individuals who do not give twopence about this country, it is time a change was made by the State and by the Government. Four years ago, there was a motion of mine brought in here to deal with the distillers of this country. There is very little result yet. That is an industry that is based on the land. If we had its exports on the same scale as the exports of Scottish whisky abroad, it would be of far greater benefit in one year than the cattle trade over a period of ten years. What has happened instead? You have people there who are conservative, whose interest is the profit motive and who, if they are doing all right, do not wish to expand. The State says nothing.

That is only one case. Let us take another group. Let us have a look at the millers. Already Deputy Dillon has been sneering at the millers and criticising Fianna Fáil for giving £250,000 as a present to the bakers. Deputy Dillon spent half an hour telling us what should be done to the millers and the bakers, but Deputy Dillon was in office long enough to have dealt with them. This freedom we give, this free enterprise, has meant that vast interests, with their headquarters outside the country, have come in here, bought up milling rights and, not being content with this, have now started to purchase the bakeries. What are we told by the Tánaiste? If it is proved not to be in the national interest, it might be necessary to bring in legislation to deal with it.

Since when has it been in the national interest that aliens should come in and control the lifeblood of the country, one of the most important foodstuffs, make vast profits out of it and invest them elsewhere? That is the kind of situation we must deal with and if that is described as extremism, I am very glad to be an extremist. I should like nothing better than an opportunity of dealing with that mentality. That type of free enterprise is one that cannot be tolerated much longer.

I see no reason why we cannot embark in a sensible way on a programme of expansion, aiming at a particular target each year for the next ten years. Why can we not sit down and plan over a period, rather than plan in a haphazard way from Budget to Budget? Let us take, for example, India. India learned much from this country in years gone by and India looked to Ireland for inspiration when she was looking for freedom. We know that great friendship exists between the two nations. The Indian nation had great admiration for Ireland in her struggle for independence and she learned a lot from Ireland at that time.

Is there anything wrong now with our taking a leaf out of India's book? Why can we not follow their example or learn in the industrial and economic sphere through their mistakes and through their efforts that have proved successful in improving conditions in India? Eight years ago, the Indian nation set themselves a specific target. They embarked on a programme based on a five-year period. I will not go into detail, except to say that in the first five years of that programme, the national income increased by over 15 per cent. In the same period, jobs were created for over 5,000,000 people. They pursued a forceful policy, in so far as possible, of self-sufficiency. They set definite targets. They set very definite targets with regard to education and they put the emphasis on the right and the most important priorities in education.

Nobody suggests that the plans they made have proved entirely successful. They had in the second five-year period to change, to amend, but at least the plan is going forward substantially on the basis they laid out. There is a lesson for us there and it is that before there will be any stop to emigration, there will have to be some beacon of hope before the people that will give them patience to say: "I will not go yet. Maybe I will get a job in two years' time or in three years' time."

Not alone have we to deal with the physical aspects of the economic damage that has been done to the country but with a mental illness, as far as emigration is concerned. The contagion has spread so much that every man and woman who comes back, if only for a fortnight's holidays, brings back two or three more. They are going because there is a spirit of hopelessness and despair amongst them. They have asked, and rightly so: "What is the use of staying here? There is no difference between any of them." We will have to offer a courageous plan and it will have to be a long-term plan. The people must be shown how these problems will be ended. There is no good in a blueprint. The plan must be there, and it ought to be criticised. Criticism of a constructive nature will be helpful and if the plan is there, it will give hope, but there is no plan. There is nothing but despair.

I should like to comment upon the cost of administration. It has been suggested here for a number of years that the cost of administration of Government affairs is much too high. Whether it is or not—I have my own view on that—I know that over the past year the present Government criticised very vehemently the then inter-Party Government on the basis that the Civil Service was costing too much and that the cost of Government administration generally was too high.

Last year, the Government dealt with Estimates which were there before they came into office. Nobody can criticise them for not being in a position, within a few weeks, to reduce certain Estimates, so far as the Civil Service administration was concerned, but they have had 12 months in which to carry out a rigorous and close investigation and make economies with regard to administration costs and I have still to find any reduction in administration costs.

The public were hoping for some reduction in that regard. They hoped that the money so saved could be turned to more useful work by being put into the capital account. The greatest condemnation I can give of this Government is to quote the Official Report, column 624, Volume 155. Deputy Lemass, as he then was, spoke on the Vote on Account on 15th March, 1956. Dealing with the costs of administration under the inter-Party Government, he said:—

"There is not any evidence of any great change in policy in any Department, but the overall picture is one of administrative costs mounting out of control. There is no evidence of any efforts being made by the Government to deal with that situation or to apply to themselves the exhortations which they are addressing to the public."

This is the priceless part:

"I suppose the only possible solution of this problem is to get rid of this Government. That will come sooner or later."

I offer the words of Deputy Lemass as a condemnation of his own Party's policy for the past 12 months. I do not know whether a change of Government is the solution. I do not think it is.

We have had a lot of talk to the effect that the most desirable thing we could have from the point of view of the industrialists we invite here is stability. We have this talk about stability in Ireland. I think a much more appropriate word to use would be "stagnation". We have nothing here but government by the most conservative small-minded men for the past 30 years, as far as economic and social policies are concerned.

Might I add my voice to the few already raised and appeal to the Taoiseach to retire gracefully from the scene, in the hope that, when he does, we will have this most desirable integration of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael so that, in future, the division in the political field will not be based on what side a man was on in 1922, but will be simply and solely based on his approach to economic problems. That change which is so desirable cannot come about, in my opinion, until the Taoiseach decides to retire. If necessary, I have not the slightest doubt that the House would make available, to use the words of the Taoiseach, a dower house and let him retire gracefully to that. No one would have objection to his sallying forth on occasions to sound warnings about the state of the country.

A few years ago, the Taoiseach spoke seriously on the reason why there was no development in agriculture, no increase in the population and why the young men were not getting married. He said it was due to the fact that the older people in rural Ireland held on to their homesteads and farms, until they were nearly as old as Methuselah. His solution for that problem was to build another house on the farm and to put the old folk into it when they reached 60 or 70 years so that the young men could be married and manage the holdings in the most economical manner possible.

The Taoiseach put his finger on the problem at the time. He felt that the older a farmer got, the more conservative he got; the older he got, the more cranky he got and the more insistent he became that only he himself could work the farm and that the son at 45 years of age was still too young to give him the reins. The Taoiseach saw that clearly. It is a pity he cannot see that he has adopted in Government the very same tactics adopted over the years by the conservative people in the farming community.

He should look into his own mind for a change when he will see that he has got even more conservative than he ever was. If ever we want to shed conservatism in this country, now is the time to do it and put life and vigour into the policies which are so necessary, if we are to save this nation from extinction.

We should take stock of our position and compare how things are now in comparison with conditions 12 months ago. This debate has largely centred around the position of dairy farmers, the price of wheat, the price of milk and the other matters affecting agriculture. We cannot, I think, get a true picture, unless we examine the situation when this Government came into office some 12 months ago. Listening to Opposition speakers in this debate, one would imagine that the conditions in which we live to-day and which prevail in the country arose simply overnight. What are the realities of the situation? I think our people have very short memories if they have forgotten that this Government came into office by direction of the people when a Coalition Government had absolutely and utterly failed. They failed in their social policy. They failed in their economic policy.

When the last Government went out of office, Deputies will remember, they went out of office not by any vote of this House but by virtue of the fact that the then Taoiseach, Deputy Costello, could not carry on. The position was not that the country was broke; the country was "bust." Do Deputies not remember the position of local authorities prior to the last election when the local authorities could not get 1/- from Central Government and when there was nothing to come out of the Local Loans Fund? Do Deputies remember that we had deputation after deputation from local authorities and questions asked in this House, not alone from Fianna Fáil Benches but from all sides of the House, in an endeavour to get some money from the then Minister for Local Government to carry out the programmes to which they were committed?

At that time, we were in the appalling position that local authorities were encouraged to go ahead with their programmes. They were told to borrow from the banks and to go ahead with their building and other programmes as the money would be provided. They were told the money would be forthcoming but the fact of the matter is that the money was not there and was not forthcoming. We had the appalling spectacle, for the first time in this State, of local authorities' cheques "hopping". They could not meet their obligations and the banks could not honour the cheques issued by them.

Hundreds of people throughout rural Ireland proceeded with house-building on the assumption that, so far as they and the local authorities knew, the money for grants would be forthcoming. In time, the houses were completed but there was no money to meet the commitments. The unfortunate people then found themselves served with spates of civil bills for payment of the money. In turn, builders' providers and small contractors were put out of business because they could not get their money from the house-builders.

We had that appalling financial mess not alone in that line but in every line of Government administration. The fact was that we were "bust". That was the reason why Deputy Costello and his colleagues could not face this House. That was the reason why they had to go to the country. That was the reason the people gave the nation the strong Government of which Deputy Costello complains so bitterly now. The people desired leadership and now they have got it. The people have decided on the issue. If there had been a possibility that the former Government could raise the wind in any direction they would not have gone to the country at that time.

Deputy Costello, in his speech, mainly blames three circumstances for the position of the Coalition Government at the time it went out of office. He summarised the difficulties with which his Government was faced in 1956 in the following way. Firstly, they could not get capital. Secondly, there was a bank credit squeeze. Thirdly, there was the Suez crisis. I must think of that third alibi again because evidently it is the alibi of every member of the former Coalition Government in respect of everything that went wrong.

Let us consider those three headings in the order in which Deputy Costello gave them. He stated that the Government could not get capital. I assume they could not get capital because the people had lost confidence in the Government. He blames a bank credit squeeze although it is significant that, at the time, when the Coalition were questioned about a bank credit squeeze they denied that any such practice was in force. Evidently, the Suez crisis was responsible for very many things in this country—or so it was stated. I have here a supplementary question asked by Deputy Sweetman, as reported at column 294 of the Official Report of the 13th February last. The present Minister for Local Government, Deputy Blaney, told Deputy Sweetman he would have to find £900,000 for the Road Fund due to mishandling and to the fact that Deputy Sweetman, when in office as Minister for Finance, raided the Road Fund to the extent of £500,000. Deputy Sweetman then asked the Minister this supplementary question:—

"Mr. Sweetman: Is the Minister not aware that the deficit in the Road Fund for last year was due to one cause and one cause alone—the Suez crisis? Everybody knows that."

Evidently the Suez crisis was responsible for the reduction in the road grants to local authorities by the former Coalition Government. Evidently, also, it was responsible—according to Deputy Costello—for the difficulties of the financial situation, the difficulties experienced in providing money for local authority schemes, and so on.

Little did Colonel Nasser think, when he sank a couple of tug-boats in the Suez Canal, that he was knocking the bottom out of house-building in rural Ireland. Little did Colonel Nasser think, when he was resisting the invasion of the British and French, that, by the action of closing the canal, he was putting thousands of people out of employment over here in Ireland. Little did Colonel Nasser think, when these things were happening, that the people who were waiting for their housing grants, and who were receiving writs day by day, had him to thank for that appalling situation.

The Suez situation covers a multitude of Coalition sins. It was rated by Deputy Costello, the leader of the Coalition Government, as one of the main causes of that Government's difficulty. However, in his speech, Deputy Costello states that in the previous year—1955—the imbalance of payments problem amounted to the appalling sum of £94,000,000. He also stated that that figure was about to be repeated in the following year. Were any steps taken by Deputy Costello and his Government in 1955, when they saw that rising crisis of an imbalance of payments problem, when they saw the continuing picture that we were not paying our way, to deal with the situation? Evidently, nothing was done. We had government then by jerks and starts and it would appear that they could not make up their mind on policy.

In his speech in this debate, Deputy Costello stated, as reported at column 211 of the Official Report, Volume 166, No. 2:

"I stated that we who had gone into opposition would tend to be a constructive Opposition and that we would not indulge merely in recriminations and bickering."

The constructive criticism, evidently, that Deputy Costello and his colleagues are prepared to make on this Vote on Account seems to be very limited in nature. At column 231, in the same debate on the 13th of this month, as reported in the Official Report, Deputy Costello said at the end of his speech:

"It does not devolve on us as an Opposition to put forward at this stage, clear, definite, detailed points of policy."

Evidently, if Deputy Costello and his colleagues have any cures for our financial difficulties, they are prepared to keep those cures strictly to themselves. This question of offering constructive opposition does not go to the extent of suggesting what the Opposition regard as the solution to our problems or suggesting any means by which the present situation could be improved.

There are other fundamental differences, evidently, between Deputy Costello and his colleague, Deputy Cosgrave, on what line the country should follow or what policy generally should be pursued. Deputy Costello seems to take a poor view, for instance, of the subsidising of butter for export. He states in a rather sneering way that it is a doubtful proposition, exporting subsidised butter at a cheaper price than we can give it to our own people. He expresses the usual platitudes. Of course, he would like lower taxation, but he wants increased capital expenditure. Evidently he wants increased capital expenditure, irrespective of where the finances are to come from. He states:—

"There is a limit to what can be done by Government in the way of capital expenditure, but nevertheless I am convinced of the necessity for having that capital expenditure on productive enterprises at the highest possible level."

It would appear that his colleague, Deputy Cosgrave, disagrees with him on that view also.

Firstly, Deputy Cosgrave in his speech on this Vote on Account, as reported at column 331 of the Debates for the 14th March, 1958, states:—

"Reference has been made during the course of this discussion to the fact that increased State expenditure is necessary for the solution of our problems. I do not subscribe to that view. In fact, all the evidence that is available would indicate that the contrary is true. With the possible exception of Russia—we have no accurate figures to show what the standard of living there is or the conditions under which people live —all the great economies in the world, the United States of America, Germany, all the prosperous economies, are based on private enterprise and, in fact, the heavy rate of State expenditure here over a number of years would indicate that increased State expenditure does not produce the results expected or create conditions in which further expansion can be expected."

So here we have Deputy Costello demanding greater State expenditure, while Deputy Cosgrave, his colleague, does not believe in greater State expenditure at all and does not believe it would contribute in any way to the solution of our problems here.

In connection with butter, Deputy Cosgrave has this to say, as reported at column 325 for the same day, the 14th March, 1958:—

"I believe we are justified in maintaining the subsidy arrangements which have been utilised in recent years in order to ensure that we are in a position to trade in respect of some of the commodities we export, such as butter and bacon."

Therefore, it would appear that Deputy Cosgrave disagrees with Deputy Costello on this question of subsidisation of butter exports.

It would be helpful both to the House and the country if the leaders of Fine Gael could make up their minds as to whether they are going. It would be very helpful if these Deputies could get together and agree as to which of these policies should be pursued, whether it is good policy that in times like these we should subsidise surpluses of butter production or whether, as Deputy Costello says, we should not do so. They should try to decide whether we should embark on an enlarged programme of capital expenditure by the State, as Deputy Costello suggests, or whether that would be very bad economics, as Deputy Cosgrave suggests. It is another indication as to why the people made up their minds to change Government at the last election; they knew that, not alone were there divided counsels between the different Coalition groups making up such a Government, but that there were, in fact, divided counsels on grave fundamental issues between the leaders of the Fine Gael Party themselves.

Deputy Costello went on to talk about the position of agriculture and as to what should be done and what should be the policy as far as the present difficulties with agricultural surpluses are concerned. He stated:—

"Various speakers have referred to the effect on the farmers' income of the price of wheat, the price of milk and barley and the reduction in their incomes through the levy. I do not intend to go over that ground, because I am not competent to do so, but may I remark two things in passing? One is that if the financial stringency of the country was such that it required the imposition of this levy on the milk producers, at least this strong Government, with its clear majority, with its penchant for plans, should have had some plan of an alternative character rather than the imposition of the levy to export cheap butter to the British for the utilisation of surplus milk."

He goes on in a further part of his speech about this strong Government and what they are doing with the price of wheat. Now, why Deputy Costello, above all people, should mention wheat, butter or milk here passes my comprehension, because he was the leader of a Government which, on the wheat question, when we were not faced as a nation with the problems we have now of over-production in wheat for the home market, actually boasted about taking £1,000,000 from the wheat growers. He actually took pride in it and, speaking here at that time, on the Vote on Account, on the 9th March, 1955, he made this boast:—

"We cut the amount the taxpayers had to give to the growers of wheat by £1,000,000. Deputy de Valera was always fond of saying that no Government but a Government formed from a single party would be competent or would have the courage to make unpopular and difficult decisions. We are what is called a Coalition, what we call an inter-Party Government. We had to take that courageous decision——"

Courageous, mark you——

"... to reduce the price of wheat. We had the courage to face up to that and it was not a very easy one. We had to tell the farmers who supported us that though we knew their difficulties and their problems and that we sympathised with them and appreciated what they were doing, they were getting some money to which, having regard to the interests of the taxpayer and to the general interests of the community, they were not entitled and therefore we had to take it from them this year."

He further stated:

"We did that in order to save the taxpayer. It was something which Deputy Corry and all the Fianna Fáil propagandists will be making use of in years to come. I am glad to say, however, that what we have done is gratefully appreciated by the public in general."

So we have Deputy Costello in 1955 boasting about taking £1,000,000 from the wheat growers, boasting about taking it, when his Government were not faced with the large surplus of wheat that we have on our hands now; and stating further that he was satisfied that this cut of £1,000,000 to the wheat growing farmers was appreciated by the public in general. Mind you, there are changed times in this country. That is an indication as to how much sincerity we can attach to the crocodile tears shed by Deputy Costello and his colleagues about the present position of our wheat growing farmers.

It is true, perhaps, that part of the problem may have been created by what are called wheat ranchers— people who take land for the sole purpose of growing wheat on the conacre system. To whatever extent that is true, the honest wheat growing farmer who has grown wheat as part of his economy has to suffer, in view of the surplus we now have. This is a matter for adjustment and the Government, in present circumstances, have endeavoured to meet that situation as best they can.

I have no doubt that the Minister for Agriculture would prefer to make a straight cut, such as was formerly made. However, the plan of the married price has come from the farming organisations themselves and they evidently accept certain responsibility in this matter, as I think they should, because it is part of the agricultural industry with which they have to deal. It may well be that some position ultimately will come about whereby we will be able to deal with a larger proportion of production than we can now deal with. I understand that experiments, which are fairly promising, are being carried out in connection with the production of the all-Irish loaf.

We had to try over the years to get this nation to realise that we could produce wheat here to meet our requirements. We always aimed at endeavouring to produce the national requirements here, to the ease of our balance of payments problem. Some speaker said—I think it was the last Deputy who spoke—that farming and agriculture in this country were bedevilled by politicians and political interference. Unfortunately, the question of wheat growing had to become a political question. It was made a political question by this Party away back in 1932. We had to make it a political question, because we had to try to get farmers to realise that wheat could be grown and to try to put that over, against the most bitter opposition from the main leaders of the Fine Gael Party.

People were told it would destroy their land. Deputy Dillon told them that he would not be found dead in a field of wheat. All kinds of propaganda were used and it took this nation many years to realise that our policy was right and that, in fact, we could produce the national requirements. It is only now when we come to these difficult years of the imbalance of payments, which we have inherited from our predecessors, that our nation appreciates the effort made by the Irish farmers in coming forward with that wonderful production of wheat, to the ease of our balance of payments. If that policy had not been rigorously pursued over the years up to the point at which we now are, thank God, that we can produce our national requirements, I do not know how, in fact, we could meet the imbalance of payments problem left to us by our predecessors.

Deputy Costello and his colleague, Deputy Blowick, shed tears about the position of the dairy farmers here. I should like the House to examine this question impartially. I have no objection at all to farmers' organisations, or their paid officials, making as much propaganda as they can to get as much as they can for the farming community. That is what the paid officials are for, just as the representatives of the trade unions make the best case they can to get as much as they can for their own sections. However, I want to say, in connection with the trade union organisations as a whole, that they, in the agreement which was negotiated, have contributed very much to national stability. They realised the situation in which we find ourselves and they realised that a certain amount of restraint was necessary. It is a question of tactics, of whether these officials of farmers' organisations——

I suggest that conversations should be carried on outside. The Minister is speaking.

These officials of farming organisations can decide for themselves and are free to decide for themselves whether or not it is good policy to suggest that everything is all wrong with the dairying industry, if it is not so. The dairy farmers to-day are in a very different position from the position they were in some years ago. In the dairying districts, I venture to suggest that about 90 per cent. of their production of milk is grass-fed milk in the summer months. They are in a different position, for instance, from the dairy farmer who supplies milk to towns and has to feed his cattle at great cost throughout the winter months and who has to replace cows going stale and who has to put up with all the vicissitudes of the dairy farmer in that position.

The vast majority of the farmers in the dairying areas are free to supply their milk from grass that costs them nothing, except the utilisation of the grass, during the summer months. They have not got to keep up any particular quota and they have not got to buy cows when they go stale. At that time, they are getting for dropped calves, or suck calves, from £20 to £25.

That is a change from 10/-.

It is a great change from the time Deputy Dillon suggested that their milk should be lowered to 1/- a gallon, when they could get only 30/- to £3 10s. for a calf. Milk yields have increased enormously over the last number of years, through improved herds, breeding and so on. Through new techniques, white scour has been virtually eliminated——

Thanks to Deputy Dillon.

——and contagious abortion has been drastically reduced by artificial insemination. They have had all these benefits as well as the benefits of increased grass through liming, and it is a question for dairy farmers themselves as to whether they think it good policy now to shout "wolf, wolf" because, in my view, that has been one of the great difficulties with agriculture and agricultural representatives in this country for many years. They have the unfortunate capacity for shouting "wolf, wolf" when the wolf is not at the door and the result has been that, when the wolf was really at the door and when agriculture, or any branch of it, needs a stimulant, nobody is inclined to believe them.

How is it that at present, when we have more creameries, all the farming community are demanding the establishment of creameries and branch creameries and new creameries? In my own county and generally across the west, farmers' organisations and young farmers all over the place are trying to get into milk production, trying to get into this industry which, we are assured by the paid organisers of the agricultural organisations, is heading for bankruptcy. The farmers are not fools, as is shown by the fact that all these men across the country are demanding that new creameries be established, so that they also can get in on the profits which are being made and are to be made from dairy farming. It is true that at this particular time this branch of farming has to receive very large State subvention in order to sell the surplus butter. I am not really satisfied that this picture may continue. I am not satisfied that it is a true pattern. I should like to remind the House that only a few short years ago, when Deputy Dillon was Minister for Agriculture and was threatening to drown the British with eggs and choke them with butter, in that very same year he was importing New Zealand butter and flogging it to the public at a price of 10d. for every wrapper he put around it. He thought then, when he made his earlier proposals, that he would be exporting butter in that very year——

He never said that.

——but by the end of the year he was trying to get the people to eat the yellow New Zealand butter which he had to import. I am not satisfied that the trend we have at the moment is a true trend. It may well be that in another year we may not have the immense surplus which we have at the present time.

I do think that a certain duty devolves on the dairying industry to deal with this situation. There is no industrialist, and no manufacturer—I am speaking generally about industrial projects—who, if he finds one line is being over-produced, does not try to find some alternative. I think the dairying industry itself should direct its efforts to finding alternative uses for the over-production, by way of cream or, as Deputy Costello suggested, cheese, or in some other way. At all events, despite the cry that this Government is anti-agricultural, might I point out that approximately £25,000,000 to £30,000,000 is being provided in the Estimates this year towards agriculture? That is being provided by the taxpayers; the amount for the agricultural community is increased this year by £2,500,000. The taxpayers as a whole, including the farming community, have to find that money.

There is also the question of endeavouring to cut our cloth according to our measure. It is agreed by almost everybody on all sides of the House that taxation has virtually reached saturation point. There is the question of how far this nation can go towards helping any section of the community by way of budgetary subvention. We have in these Estimates provided an extra £2,500,000 to try to get over the difficulties with which the farming community is faced. In connection with these three matters, butter, bacon and milk, and in endeavouring to try to hold the scales evenly between all sections of the community, I think in present circumstances we have not done so badly at all.

It is only reasonable to expect the industry itself to contribute something towards subsidising butter which must be exported. I entirely agree with Deputy Cosgrave, and disagree with his colleague, Deputy Costello, that it is good business for us in certain circumstances to subsidise exports, particularly exports of butter. We all realise the importance of the dairying industry to our economy and to the cattle business as a whole. We should do at least as much as our competitors are doing. Let it be clearly understood we are not, by any means, the only people who are subsidising agricultural exports, and in particular subsidising the export of butter. Now that the industry is organised perhaps it will find ways and means of devoting its energies to finding alternatives to the production of manufactured butter.

Taking the picture as a whole it is true that cattle prices were never better. It is true, as I have pointed out, that extraordinary prices are obtainable for calves. It is equally true that in a very large and important industry, such as agriculture is in this country, the people engaged in that industry will themselves be watching the general picture and will endeavour to devote their efforts towards lines which will be profitable for themselves in the long run. They in fairness cannot expect the State to continue subsidisation of butter exports to the extent that would be necessary if butter production were to continue increasing.

The position in the bacon industry has been very difficult, particularly over the last 12 months. It has been difficult also for other countries exporting bacon to the British market. Approximately £50,000,000 worth of bacon and bacon products is imported by Britain annually. The amount we supply to that market is comparatively small, something in the region of £3,000,000 worth; we have to supply it in competition with the people of Holland and Denmark who evidently have their farming organisation geared to export what will fetch the highest prices, and geared to export an article that will appeal to the particular tastes of that market. I feel, and I have felt for a long time, that if we are to expand on that line our farmers must study the methods used by our main competitors. We must be in a position to export economically. The question of subsidisation of butter is one thing because that affects the whole cattle industry. The question of subsidisation of bacon is another matter.

A large part of the barley we produce here is fed on our own farms. I think over 50 per cent. of it is used in that way and our farmers should be in a position to produce much more barley than they formerly did. It has been proved that barley can be grown now on land which people formerly thought could not produce barley. It has been proved that with proper lime comparatively poor land, marginal land and bog land, can produce good barley, particularly of some of the varieties which have become available on the market in recent times.

In our view, there is only one way in which our people can export bacon competitively and properly and that is by producing their requirements, as far as they can, on their own farms for the purpose of producing bacon pigs. If they till an acre of barley and an acre of potatoes, they will grow sufficient food to feed a sow and two litters of eight bonhams each in a year or, at most, in 13 months to bring them to bacon weight. If we intend to meet and beat our competitors in the British market, we must get down to producing our feeding stuffs at the lowest possible cost. That can best be done by growing more barley and potatoes, in order to produce more bacon pigs. If our farmers face the problem in that way, we will be able to meet and beat our competitors for the £50,000,000 pig and bacon market available to us in Britain; but, unless we do that, I doubt very much if we will survive in that market.

It is true that much can be done by overhauling the marketing system. It is true that a marketing organisation has been set up to study our problems. Fundamentally, however, we must have the raw material at the right price and we shall have to produce the raw material at first cost on our own land.

The Danish farmer and the Dutch farmer, and other competitors, spend at least one day each week in an office planning what they will do. They are fully aware of their costings and know what return to expect. I hope a similar system of costings will be adopted by our farmers and that the various farmers' organisations throughout the country will bring home to the people the fact that, unless they are prepared to run their farms as business men run their firms, we have not a hope of survival in any foreign market. It is vitally essential that they should be fully aware of their costings, because then they will appreciate the difference that the extra cwt. or two cwt. of barley from the acre, the extra cwt. of oats or ton of potatoes——

The Minister appreciates that the Revenue Commissioners are always a deterrent to the Irish farmer increasing production. That is a fact, is it not?

To a certain extent, the Deputy is correct. We all, the farmers included, regard the Revenue Commissioners as our enemies. When we think in terms of free European markets and free trade, we shall certainly not be in a position to meet and beat competitors unless we get down to it on our farms in the way I have described. It has been said that our industrialists are backward and need further protection to make up for lost time and to put us in a position in which we can compete in the industrial sphere. We overlook the fact that the agricultural industry is also backward, particularly in relation to costings. We must move with the times and put ourselves in a position to meet and beat competitors in the Free Trade Area, should the Free Trade Area ultimately evolve.

The greatest difficulties that have appeared are in relation to agriculture. It has been very difficult to find a common formula, as far as agricultural products are concerned. If these difficulties are resolved, it is essential that our farming community should be geared for that market. Admittedly, the problem will be a difficult one to resolve, but our farmers must be ready for the fray, just as our industrialists, new as they are and young as they are, must be ready.

It has been suggested that the Government are reactionary. It has been alleged that the Government cut the scheme for the provision of cow byres. That was one of the principal points of attack last week as far as Deputy Blowick was concerned. In order to get the true picture, it is necessary to refer to some questions asked in the House recently. These questions and answers got very little publicity; they were deserving of much more. The Minister for Agriculture was asked by Deputy Rooney to state the amount by which the grant available for the construction of cow byres had been reduced, particularly having regard to the importance of the bovine tuberculosis eradication scheme and the amount of such grants paid since the scheme for payment of the double grant was announced. The Minister replied that that was done because he found himself with a commitment of £3,000,000 in respect of applications.

Deputy Dillon asked if, bearing in mind the supreme importance of an expeditious realisation of the tuberculosis eradication scheme in cattle, the Minister would reconsider his decision. The Minister replied that that was a separate question, on which he could make a very long speech, but he did not propose to do so: "In fact, it is not a decision made by me at all, because my very good friend, the former Minister, Deputy James Dillon, in January, 1957, decided that the double byre grant should be abandoned. He reported his finding to the then Minister for Finance who approved of his decision. I am not blaming my predecessor for this. Nor am I disputing the wisdom of his decision. Certainly, I do not blame him for not announcing in January, 1957, that he had arrived at that decision." The Minister for Agriculture did not blame Deputy Dillon for not announcing that decision in January, 1957, when Deputy Dillon and his colleagues in the Coalition Government were faced with a run to the country.

That is not true.

Here is the position. Let it be quite clear. Deputy Blowick came in here last week, and attacked the Government in relation to the question of a reduction in the grants for cow byres and the bovine tuberculosis eradication scheme. He was a colleague of Deputy Dillon's; he was a member of the Government which took the decision to cut out these grants. That decision was taken in January, 1957. That decision was approved by the then Government; that decision was approved by the then Minister for Finance. Yet, Deputy Blowick has the hardihood to come in here and start complaining about a decision which was taken, in fact, not by Deputy Smith, as Minister for Agriculture, but by one of his own colleagues and of which, I am sure, he himself had full knowledge. That is an indication of the sincerity of the criticisms of Government policy we have been hearing during this debate. We can add to them the crocodile tears shed by Deputy Costello about the reduction in the price of wheat.

This debate has clearly shown that, as far as the Opposition are concerned, they are now in the same muddled, addled mood as they were when they were defeated by the people in the general election. They are still as berefit of a policy to meet the nation's ills and difficulties as they were then The fact that their Leader, Deputy Costello, in his peroration the other night, told us that it was none of their duty nor did they propose to give us their solution of what they complained was wrong with the country, should be, in itself, a criterion of the sincerity of Opposition speakers in this debate.

The people, when they saw the country was "bust" and when they saw where Coalition government had led the nation, did as they have done on many previous occasions. They turned back to Éamon de Valera and Fianna Fáil to lead the nation out of the financial mess to which it had been brought by Coalition government. We have got stability; we have arrested the appalling decline in employment that had been the trend before we took office.

That is not true.

A reduction to 81,000— the figures are there. And fundamentally a more important thing, we have restored the confidence of the Irish people in an Irish Government. I need not refer to the success of the National Loan, of the Exchequer Bonds and to the other indications that our people have confidence in the Government now leading the nation. Our people believe again that this is a country fit for Irishmen to live in. They have confidence in the future under the leadership of this Government. We have been only 12 months in office. We came in with an inheritance of bankruptcy from our predecessors. The Government was "bust". The nation cannot be changed overnight. The process is slow and must of necessity be somewhat painful.

That is a big change from the election promises.

However, we have succeeded in the first fundamental of restoring the confidence of our people in their nation and in their Government. We have another few years at least to complete the job.

There is one thing the people have decided on. It is true, as Deputy Costello said, that the most effective compaign during the general election was based on the fact that the people wanted a strong Government. The people have decided that they are finished for all time with Coalition government in this country and that never again will they allow a Coalition Government to bring this nation to the verge of bankruptcy as it was when we took over 12 months ago.

This is about the third time I have heard the Minister for the Gaeltacht speak at length. He should have been Minister for Defence because he is the best man I ever came across to lay down a smokescreen. He started off by saying that Deputy Costello bragged about reducing the price of wheat and he quoted from the Official Report. There was no more bragging in Deputy Costello's speech than in the Minister's statement about his own Government that they had not done so badly.

The Minister then went on to say that Deputy Dillon, when Minister for Agriculture, had said he would choke the British with butter. He never did say that. He might have said it about bacon, but he did not say it about butter. When Deputy Dillon came into office in 1948, we had hardly enough butter for ourselves. We were rationed in butter. The only thing we could do with the calves at that time was to send them to Clover Meats or Dennys to be killed. I will leave the dairymen in the House judge how reliable the Minister for the Gaeltacht was when he said that artificial insemination eradicated contagious abortion.

The Minister talked about the growing of barley. He said that farmers should grow more barley. I thought for a time I was listening to Deputy Dillon when he said that barley should be grown at home and should be fed at home and when he spoke about the new varieties of barley brought in. I should like to remind the House that neither the Minister for the Gaeltacht nor any of his colleagues had anything to do with the bringing in of these new varieties.

What are you talking about!

Who brought in the Ymer barley?

It was brought in years ago.

During the war years, there was a penalty put on the farmers for growing barley and they could not get any more than 35/- a barrel for it. Deputy Costello was criticised by the Minister for the Gaeltacht because he did not produce a policy for this strong Government over there. When the Minister for the Gaeltacht was on his feet a few minutes ago, he said very little about policy or anything else and gave very few solutions for any problem. He gave us the old free trade smokescreen. I am beginning to think it is a kind of smokescreen, with a Minister running over and back and nobody knowing what it is all about.

The first action of the Government when they came in was to reduce the food subsidies. By that action of the Government, the cost of living was immediately increased. Industrialists had to raise wages to meet it. The cost of production was put up and, consequently, the cost of other commodities was put up. The wages of Dublin Corporation employees, of county council employees down the country and of the employees of the corporations of Limerick, Cork and Waterford had to be raised, and that put the rates up.

We were supposed to have saved £6,000,000 by reducing the food subsidies. I wonder how much it has cost the country at all? We reduced the Estimate by £2,000,000, but we had to find £23,000 for an increase in social assistance to compensate unfortunate people for the abolition of the food subsidies. That is a quotation from the Irish Press itself. One may ask what the Government could have done. We were told by the last speaker that there was a terrible financial crisis, but the electorate were told by the Tánaiste that the money did not matter. Walt Disney came over here some time ago to look for the King of the Leprechauns, the man able to find the crock of gold. I think he picked the wrong man when he picked Jimmy O'Dea. The Tánaiste would have made an Árd-rí of the Leprechauns.

He had a crock with £100,000,000. He probably had 1,000,000 crocks with £100 apiece. He was going to produce 100,000 jobs. When Ministers say things like this, they should keep faith with the people. But faith was not kept. The prospect of 100,000 jobs was held out and the unemployed were the pawns, as they were always the pawns of Fianna Fáil, who said: "We will cure unemployment; we will bring back the emigrants." They have continued to say that all the time. They are very careful to get the Minister for the Gaeltacht to come in and say unemployment is falling, but there are 24,000 fewer people working in the country.

They have also sent in the Minister for Lands and the Minister for Defence to say they gave no promises or made no definite statements and nobody could say they did, but I have here a very interesting document published by Fianna Fáil from 13 Upper Mount Street, Dublin, and printed by the Irish Press. One of these was posted in the nice, lavish way of Fianna Fáil for laying out money in elections, to every elector in the country. One can imagine an unfortunate, unemployed man sitting down to his excuse of a breakfast and getting this poster and opening it: “Action can start now. Over 90,000 people are out of work: the Coalition says it can do nothing for them now. Fianna Fáil believes that work must be provided at once.” That was in italics. The unemployed man, of course, sits up and says: “This is good”, and when he turns it over he finds: “All energies devoted to one aim—full employment”. That is in very big headlines, so that he cannot miss it, and just in case he did, down at the bottom of the page also in headlines, we find: “Unemployment can be cured”.

Let no other Minister come in and say that there was no statement made, no guarantee given or no proposition put before the unemployed. The unemployed man's wife, on going out and seeing this poster, probably thought their troubles were over, that work would be started at once. Such deceptions should be ended, especially where they mean deceiving the people who are worse off and taking advantage of those who are living in misery.

We were told this Government would get cracking, but we came back to this House last year and often we spent only one day here. There was no legislation, no proposition and nothing was brought before the House to ease unemployment, to set up new industries, whether State or private enterprise. They promised everything to the Gaeltacht, but they still insist on centralising whatever industries there are in the City of Dublin.

We had a report on national transport circulated to members of the House last May and C.I.E. is losing £1,000,000. Many people work for C.I.E. and depend on it for a livelihood, and I thought the Minister would get cracking with some proposition or some policy on national transport. Instead, the only thing that happened was to shake the poor fellows working in Dundalk out of their shoes. We next had a Bill concerning tea. I think it is scandalous to take up the time of the House with such a measure, when other things could be done. The Tea Bill was a Bill to set up a sort of council of ten over all tea in Ireland. It was a right "poke in the eye" for the fellows in Mincing Lane to say: "We shall not let anybody buy tea direct through Great Britain——"

The Deputy may not discuss the Tea Bill on the Vote on Account.

At the same time, we are going over to Great Britain to try to sell our butter and bacon and everything else, and yet we are giving them this sock in the eye.

As a result of Government policy, nobody will be left here to drink tea.

It will certainly improve relations between the two countries! Our store cattle prices arrangement with Great Britain will soon be under review. I wonder has the conduct of the Minister for Industry and Commerce in cutting out dealings between Ireland and England in tea improved relations between the two countries. I want that put on record.

Coming to agriculture, the farmers of Ireland find that the agricultural industry is being put into the secondary position in which it was always placed by Fianna Fáil. When the previous Government came into office for the first time, agriculture was given its rightful place as the country's primary industry: now, it is pushed back into second place and any burdens to be borne are placed on agriculture. Fianna Fáil are very clever about this; they come in here and shout about everybody over on this side who objected to, or did not approve of wheat growing, or who might not have been all out all the time for growing wheat. Let them have that. We will grant them that. Taking 300,000 tons of wheat at a price of £28 a ton, say £30, it amounts to £9,000,000. I still maintain that the cattle trade was better—£45,000,000.

Deputy McQuillan said that we repeat speeches and that he had not any apology to make for repeating year after year what he had to say. I shall repeat now a sound speech that is constantly being made. It was made in this House the other night by the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Bartley. As they say in the Joe Lynch Show, "You heard it before". We have been hearing this for some time. Deputy Dillon was accused this evening of saying things that he had said before. Did any Deputy hear this before?

"The Irish people recognise the truth of that position and so you have the conviction at the present time that, whatever the difficulties may be, there is only one Party and one policy capable of solving them, and that is the Fianna Fáil Party under the leadership of the man who has carried this country through so many crises in the past."

We never heard that before!

Will the Deputy give the reference?

Volume 166, No. 3, column No. 378, from a speech by the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Bartley. The Parliamentary Secretary also said that we were only rubbing salt into the wounds of the farmers. Who wounded the farmers? We did not wound them and we did not go down to meetings to insult them. The only thing I will say about the farmers is that I would ask them to reconsider the resolutions that have been made. I was never a wrecker of my country, like many people on the opposite benches, and I should not like to take advantage of this situation. I would ask the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers' Association to reconsider their decision before they do anything that might hinder the attestation scheme. It is very important that that scheme should be adopted and that it should be carried out very well.

English newspapers have often shown hostility to us and to some of our policies but recently I have been reading a series of articles in the English Sunday Express that were very favourable to us, especially in connection with the scheme for the eradication of bovine tuberculosis. That paper carried a leading article which called on the British Government to send help to us in order to have that scheme carried out. That is a very kind gesture. Some of their correspondents interviewed the Minister for Agriculture. There is one very alarming thing which should be dealt with by the Minister right away. Under the heading: “Minister Orders ‘Raids’ on Cattle,” the Sunday Express of January 12th, 1958, reports a special interview with the Minister for Agriculture, in which it is stated:

"In a special interview, the Minister told me he believed the only sure way to the complete success of his Ministry's scheme was to mop up the disease county by county."

That would be all right. We would all agree that we should get behind the Minister and that he should lead the country in this matter but, unfortunately, we shall not be able to do that because the Minister is not giving a lead. He is not taking the example of Father Mathew, who said, "Here goes in the name of God," and took the pledge himself.

The report goes on to say:—

"Said Mr. Smith: I have not had my own cattle tested up to now because as the odd man out it would be futile. A single attested herd has little chance of remaining disease-free when there is so much movement of cattle to and from farms in an area not already cleared."

That is a defeatist line for the Minister to adopt. There were many people in this country who had their cattle tested before their neighbours did it. If anybody should do so, it is the Minister for Agriculture. There would be one good result; he would get rid of reactors. There is always a chance of reinfection but that can be got over by a little care.

The previous Minister for Agriculture had his herd tested and a great number of people had their herds tested. If the Minister's policy is carried out and if there is a county that is not attested, the veterinary surgeons who are responsible for that county will not test any herds until all the shock troops arrive. The shock troops may arrive too late because there is a dead-ball line in this matter. It must be done within four years. The Minister should take the example of Father Mathew and say: "Here goes in the name of God", sign the pledge himself and get his own cattle tested as an example to his neighbours and to the country.

There is one detail with regard to butter that I should like to mention. I would ask you, Sir, to bear with me. It is costing a lot of money to sell our butter in Great Britain. We must sell our butter there. Our butter is as good as any other butter going into that market. A great deal of our butter is going in there in bulk. It should be Government policy to have all the Irish butter packaged so as to show that it is Irish butter. It should be sent to areas in England, and there are plenty of them, where the Irish population is heavy.

That would be a matter for the Estimate for Agriculture.

I am finished with it, Sir. I want to refer to the cleverness of Fianna Fáil in taking credit for any good thing that their predecessors or anybody else had done. For instance, the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Bartley, the other night was "having a go" at Deputy Dr. Browne about private enterprise. He said:—

"He instances the case of the E.S.B....that has been pioneered by this Party."

That appears at column 377, Volume 166, No. 3, of the Official Report. That is a fine, sound Fianna Fáil habit, to grab credit from the other man.

When I first came into this House, there were four or five pictures in the hall showing the land reclamation scheme and the condition of land before and after drainage. They have disappeared. Can any Deputy tell me where they went? Much to my surprise, they turned up in a most unexpected quarter. In the Irish Press Farming Supplement of February 26th, 1958, there is a reproduction of the two photographs of Deputy Dillon's land reclamation scheme that were displayed in the hall. Here we have them displayed in the Irish Press Farming Supplement with the captions: “Winning back Ireland's lost acres; alone we did it.” They have produced another supplement depicting a beautiful factory but, when you read the letterpress underneath, you find that it is the chocolate crumb factory at Knocknaree which was promoted and erected during Deputy Dillon's term of office. That is the kind of mean thing that is done here.

Deputy J.A. Costello was taken to task to-night by the Minister for the Gaeltacht because he did not produce a policy. I have the Taoiseach's speech here. What policy does the Taoiseach produce? The old mixture as before—the restoration of the Irish language, Irishmen free from the earth to the sky, the removal of Partition and the mists that do be on the bog.

The Deputy can sneer at those things if he likes.

It makes it funny when they are used for the base purposes for which they are used.

The Deputy can sneer at the Irish language if he likes.

I am not sneering at the Irish language but I can sneer at the manner in which these sacred causes are being dragged around for base purposes, dragged over to England, dished up on television. Deputy McQuillan was a bit tough on the Taoiseach about the dower houses. I think I shall take the Taoiseach's part in this and say we will leave these dower houses with the Egyptian bees, the milk and the beer.

There was a great deal of talk about the Free Trade Area. It is marvellous what you will read about after-dinner speeches. When people get a bit of Dutch courage they are able to spill out theories about economics. I confess I do not know the first thing about this question, but I know we have the Minister for Industry and Commerce running back and forward to the Continent. The first ray of light I got on this matter was out of Dublin Opinion. Dublin Opinion shows a map of Ireland with a man representing Ireland, and a map of England with a woman representing Britannia, and then a crowd of fellows in a hotel over on the Continent in connection with the European Free Trade meeting, and Britannia is saying to the Irishman: “You are in this with me, ducks.” There is many a true word spoken in jest and, as I say, that is the first ray of light I got on this.

I was trying to figure this thing out. We get a preference for a great deal of our goods in the British market as against the Dutchman, the Dane and the Frenchman—it used to be called an Imperial preference but, of course, we cannot use that word here at all; just call it a preference—and we give a preference back to the British on their manufactured goods. That is all right but what will happen if we become involved in the Free Trade Area and you have a whole lot of goods coming in here from Dutch, German and French manufacturers? Will we lose our preference in the British market? That is something that should be watched.

I am slightly alarmed about this matter. I am not mad about the Minister for Agriculture as a negotiator but, at the same time, I think the Minister for Industry and Commerce has taken too much on himself going backwards and forwards to discussions on the Free Trade Area when the greatest portion of our trade is in agricultural products. It is the Minister for Agriculture who should be looking after us there. This is being used as a smoke-screen, and I am even becoming afraid of all these dinners because they are usurping the functions of this House. Matters that should be told to us as Deputies and as elected representatives of the Irish people are expounded at the end of a dinner table.

People are asking about P.A.Y.E. I suppose they pay as they earn in Britain because they earn. Instead of pay as you earn here it is pay as you eat.

In regard to the general policy of Fianna Fáil, the Taoiseach said here that Deputy James Dillon was under suspicion over wheat. I can say the same thing for the Minister over there who was under suspicion over cattle. In any case, the whole venom of Fianna Fáil was directed towards the then Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon. By every means possible they tried to undermine his policy. They used their tied paper, their various propaganda machines and their whispering campaigns against him. In spite of all this the former Minister for Agriculture went out of office last year and left them a surplus with which they are not able to deal, although he was supposed to be doing nothing.

Deputy Corry had Deputy Dillon under terrific suspicion in connection with the price of milk, and we had the "bob a gallon" trotted out by the Minister for the Gaeltacht. Whatever they may say about Deputy Dillon on the question of milk when he was Minister for Agriculture, he did not do as the present Minister for Agriculture is doing, cut the price of milk. He maintained it. When he went out of office he left the present Government with 77/6 a barrel for wheat and the price of barley at well over £2 a barrel. When he went out of office he left Fianna Fáil with increased production, with an acre producing twice as much as it did before. That is the real increased production. That is the will-o'-the-wisp which the Minister for Industry and Commerce is chasing at the dinners. Every Minister who attends a dinner always winds up by asking for increased production.

Particularly in Clery's restaurant before an election.

I asked two, three or four Ministers last year whether they wanted increased production in butter but nobody answered. I asked the same question in regard to wheat but they side-stepped me again. I would prefer Ministers to be more candid and say that they do want increased production and what about it? They always have to look to the voter and the little meeting of the cumann. We are told that the country is behind the Government. I have here a copy of the Nenagh Guardian of Saturday, 1st March, in which details are given of a Fianna Fáil convention. One fellow said the Minister stated the price of wheat would be the same as it was in 1957 for millable wheat.

What Mr. Williams said there is good.

There was a resolution passed and Mr. Roger Williams of Cloughjordan said that last year they had Deputy Lemass in Nenagh. He told them that the object of the Government was to relieve unemployment. He said: "Let us get cracking." They had waited for the Government to get cracking and the results had been very poor. There were almost as many unemployed as there were 13 months ago. This man is a heretic. In addition, 8,000 people had emigrated. "That was very bad cracking," said the speaker. The Government should take a share in the blame. He added that the country was overloaded with machinery.

We do not keep the Press out of our meetings.

That is a good job.

A lot of misstatements are made by members of the Government. The Minister has just said that they do not keep the Press out of their meetings. They do not, my foot.

Is the Deputy not reading the Press?

That is only an accident. About 5,000 cumann meetings are held all over the country in the year. You have only an occasional Press representative there and he gets in by accident. I want to compliment Fianna Fáil.

Thanks very much.

Would the Deputy wait before he expresses his thanks?

I heard Deputy John Costello address this House for the first time without being met with a storm of interruptions. The most scandalous procedure I ever saw was the interruption of Deputy Costello whenever he stood up to speak by members occupying the Government Front Benches. I could be accused of interrupting but I interrupt only when I am interrupted myself and after personal attacks are made upon me.

I want to deal with another matter. I do not know whether the Chair will allow me to do so or not.

The Deputy is getting on well.

I have often heard the phrase "our national heritage" and what our policy should be in relation to it. It is hard to know what "our national heritage" is but in regard to the National Gallery, the National Library and the National Museum I want to bring this to the attention of the Minister. These institutions were neglected by the last Government and by all Governments. To our eternal shame, there is no inventory of the contents of the National Gallery. That is no fault of the Curator or his staff. The staff would have no room to take a proper inventory of the treasures of the National Gallery. I believe the same applies to the National Library and the National Museum. That matter should be remedied immediately and the Government should place the most convenient storehouses at the disposal of these institutions. I think that is very important.

I come now to the Government's policy in regard to fisheries. Most of the money in that regard was always spent in the West of Ireland. That is all right. I suppose the people needed it there. They have processing factories and ice plants there. All they want now is fish. I advocated in this House the claims of the south-eastern corner of this country where no money is spent at all. We have no fish factories or no boats but the people catch fish there and plenty of it.

You can import sardines and let them out again.

With regard to increased production, the Government say they will produce this and that and sell it but where will they sell it? A sum of £250,000 was voted and a dynamic policy was envisaged to promote the sale of agricultural produce. We have not heard a word about that since last year's Budget. Production is a splendid thing but salesmanship is very important. It is something which is neglected by industrialists, agriculturists and a whole host of other people in this country. I have experience of an industry which employs and pays salesmen well. They are not employed because they know somebody in the business. They go out to sell the finished product and there is no such thing as a recession in these factories through warehouses being filled up with unsold goods. That is one of the troubles we have. I heard my colleague from Waterford, Deputy Kyne, say that one of the fears workers in industry have in giving increased production is that they will work themselves out of their jobs. When men see the warehouses in their factories piling up it is the danger light and you will not have increased production.

The Fianna Fáil Party came along to the electorate and said: "Return us to Government. Fianna Fáil can cope with the crisis.""Wives get your husbands to work. Vote Fianna Fáil.""We will deal with unemployment at once." I have these quotations here in their own print from their own presses: "Fianna Fáil will do everything. You can trust Dev." I think their last bill which I came across would suit them all now down to the ground. It was: "Fianna Fáil will find the solution." I say to the Fianna Fáil Government that when they find the solution they ought to go and boil their heads in it.

I do not challenge the people's choice in electing a majority of Fianna Fáil Deputies. Neither do I challenge the people's choice of a Fianna Fáil Government. I think, however, it is only right for me to say that, after 12 months of office, I do not believe Fianna Fáil have shown they are capable of steering the ship which is the nation.

On the Vote on Account, we have an annual check-up on the state of the nation. I want to deal only with the last 12 months and, as far as I can, with the future. In my few remarks, I hope I do not have recourse to too many quotations of over 12 months ago or as far back as 25 years, not to say 36 years ago. It is no argument to say as was said by the Minister for the Gaeltacht, that the depths of the sincerity of the Opposition speeches is in the plea by the Labour Party and by Fine Gael that it is not for the Opposition to provide solutions. I do not know where Deputy Costello got that phrase but I remember it very well coming from Deputy Lemass who, from 1954 to 1957, was the leading spokesman for the Fianna Fáil Party. He said it was the duty of an Opposition to be watchful, to be careful, to criticise as toughly as they could the Government in power but that it was not for them to provide a solution for any of the difficulties that then, or that should, beset the country. If that is all right for Deputy Lemass, when in opposition, I do not think it is reasonable that we, in our annual check-up, should be abused for, in turn, criticising the behaviour of the Government for the past 12 months or for the stale policy for the next 12 months or for the absence of a policy for the next 12 months. As far as I can see, there is a notable absence of a statement of policy from the Taoiseach or from any member of the Front Bench or from any member of the back benches of the Fianna Fáil Party.

At the present time, the attitude of the people, as far as I can see, is one of despair and despondency. They are beginning to talk not alone about the futility of the Government but about the futility of Dáil Eireann. Needless to remark, I do not blame the ills of the nation on the present Government alone because, as would be the obvious answer from any member of the Front Bench of the Government Party at the moment, we are all responsible. There is no point in talking about what happened from 1951 to 1954 or from 1948 to 1951. There is no point in our being told by the Minister for Lands that Clann na Poblachta were responsible by their declarations prior to 1948 for the situation in which we find ourselves. Many different factors inside and outside the country are responsible for the present state of affairs.

We in the House are too fond of referring back to statements made either when we were in Opposition or when we were in Government. The attitude of the people is one of despair and despondency. The attitude of some people is: "What is the use?" Other people adopt the attitude: "If this country is bunched we can always go to England." I think it was Deputy Booth who said that those in Opposition should not spread the cry of despair and despondency. I will not. However, in criticising, it is difficult not to give the impression that one is trying to create an air of despair and despondency.

We in the Labour Party will, as far as we can, while being critical, try to be helpful and to make constructive speeches. It would be only right for me to say that when Fianna Fáil were in Opposition, and any time they have been in Opposition, that anti-Government feeling, that feeling of pretending that the Government of the country is bankrupt, prevailed much more than ever it did when Fianna Fáil were in office—and they, with certain sections of the Press, have to take the responsibility. They bear a shocking amount of responsibility for the despair and despondency they spread from 1954 to 1957 and from 1948 to 1951 when unemployment and emigration were not as high as they are at present. We saw cartoons in certain sections of the Press. There were photographs of men, regardless of who or what they were, waiting for the ship. Even some young girls were shown as emigrants although they were departing to enter a religious order in America or in Canada. These young girls were dubbed by this particular section of the Press as emigrants.

We have seen leading articles on the state of the country. We have heard wailing about the plight of workers, farmers, and so forth. It was only a political creation, so to speak. It was done to try to give the impression that, if there were a change of Government and if a certain Party were in power, things would be all right. Unfortunately, things are not all right. Unfortunately, in the past 12 months, there has been little indication that there will be a change. Whether or not a change is possible, we do not know. Whether or not the Fianna Fáil Government have a solution to the difficulties in which we find ourselves, I do not know. In any event, the standard of living of practically every section of the community has been worsened in the past 12 months. It has been worsened for the farmer. It has been worsened for the worker. It has been worsened for the shopkeeper. It has been worsened for the small trader. That is not criticism merely for the sake of criticism. It can be taken as a fact.

It may be said that the farmer has enjoyed a fairly prosperous time inasmuch as he had a certain price for this, that and the other. If he had a relatively high standard, it is now being brought down by the action of this Government in depressing the price of wheat and different other commodities which he produces. Despite what Deputy Dillon says, the standard of living of the worker has also been worsened. It is true that he has got compensation to the maximum of 10/- a week, which was negotiated as an agreement between the trade unions and the employers; but the fact remains that his standard of living has been worsened. Taking the average worker into consideration and having regard to the increased cost of living since he got his last increase, the average worker now suffers a loss of approximately 7/- a week. Granted he is being compensated and granted he is not as badly off in the matter of the increase in the cost of living as certain other sections are, the fact is that his standard of living has been worsened.

I regret to say this as well, the trade, at least in the provincial towns, seems to be diminishing. I am not trying to tell the Minister or the members of the Fianna Fáil Party that there is absolute destitution amongst the shopkeepers and traders, but I know that in certain publichouses in my own home town business is so bad that those publichouses are closing at six o'clock now—and if anyone wants me to produce the information I can give him the names. That is a situation we have not had for a long time. It merely bears out the point I am making, that people have not as much money to spend. Whether it is desirable that they should spend it on the bottle of stout or the half of whiskey, I cannot say, but we know it is a very important source of revenue to the Minister. In my own home town, two premises, two shops, were closed down recently. Again I do not want to exaggerate. I only say that it is a sign, it is a standard by which we can judge the difficulties under which people are suffering at the present time.

I thought it was enlightening, though somewhat frightening, to get the reply given to a question asked in the Dáil on the 12th March about butter consumption. Butter consumption by the ordinary individual has gone down. The reply was that the average consumption, as such, of creamery butter per head of the population was estimated at 29.6 lb. in 1956 and 27.2 lb. in 1957. It may not be a significant decrease, but it shows, in any case, that people cannot afford to purchase as much butter as they did heretofore. Whether that is the situation that the Government wanted or not, I do not know. On the other hand, the consumption of margarine has gone up proportionately. These are signs that the standard of living of the ordinary folk has worsened during the past 12 months.

Unemployment has not at all abated. I do not think there is much point in trying to tell us there were 8,000 more unemployed this time last year. There were, we admit that. That was caused by certain factors. It was caused by outside influences and I might say it was caused by certain actions—this is my opinion—that the Government had to take in order to correct the balance of payments problem, by the imposition of the special import levies— which, as everybody knew and as was the declared intention, were to be temporary. On the other hand, I do not think there is any evidence that emigration has declined at all over the past 12 months. I suppose it was not unusual—it was not an innovation last year, it happened in previous years— to see whole families leaving the towns and the rural parts of the country. It is tragic, pathetic; and I do not blame the Fianna Fáil Government for that over the last 12 months. Every one of us here in Dáil Éireann who was ever part of the Government must take his share of responsibility for that.

Employment has been reduced and that fact makes a laugh of any boast which any member of the Front Bench of the Government might make about the decrease of 8,000 in unemployment figures compared to this time last year. The fact is that there are 24,000 less in agricultural and industrial employment than there were this time last year. I have heard speakers from the Fianna Fáil Benches, in these last two or three days of the Dáil session, who did not attempt to explain these figures. Therefore, I assume they are accepted. There are 8,000 fewer unemployed, but there are 24,000 fewer in agricultural and industrial employment. That does not seem to suggest that any of the plans Fianna Fáil made over the past 12 months were designed to increase employment. The fact is— and all of us have to face up to it— that unemployment is on the increase and emigration has not abated.

The Taoiseach—and this is one of the few quotations I will make in this debate—when he spoke on the 4th July last, referred to employment given by local authorities. As reported at column 818, he said:

"The Minister for Local Government, who is sitting beside me, is engaged, as Deputies in the House will know, in trying to stimulate activity in building houses, in road building and in other local authority services."

Now, everybody knows there is far less employment on house building and on roads than there was this time last year. The Minister for Local Government says he had to repay the debts we incurred in 1956. This is an excuse which invariably comes up for Ministers for Local Government in the different Fianna Fáil Governments. The fact, as far as road workers are concerned, is that in 1957 on the 31st January there were 15,650 road workers and that number diminished to 14,365 in 1958.

It does not seem as if the Minister for Local Government, despite the exhortations of the Taoiseach, was very active in the matter of providing road work through local authorities. The figures undoubtedly show there was far less employment on roads. We have the spectacle in my own county, at least, of men with 30 or 35 years' service being laid off now. I know it is for the tail-end of the financial year, but it is something which never happened before. I know the spring of 1957 was very hard on them, but it is worse this year, despite the fact that Fianna Fáil promised they would get people back to work and, as one of the posters said, they would "get cracking". Deputy Smith, who was Minister for Local Government on 4th July, did not seem to heed what the Taoiseach said to him in regard to house building, because there are far fewer engaged in house building now. This time last year, or at least on 31st January, 1957, 4,580 were employed by local authorities on house building. In January of this year, that had fallen to 2,604, a difference of practically 2,000.

Again, we took some hope from another statement of the Taoiseach, who said, on the Estimate for his Department, on 4th July last, as reported at column 824:—

"We are now on the point of adjourning and, in the time which will elapse between now and the reassembly of the Dáil, the members of the Government will devote themselves to the task of doing everything possible in their Departments to promote greater activity and to enable more production to be secured from industry and from agriculture, with consequential greater employment. We have not had many months so far to deal with the task of correcting the position as a whole and trying to bring the State out of the position in which it was when we took office. The steps that have been taken so far have already produced results. We believe that the steps that will be taken between now and the reassembly of the Dáil will have the result of reducing unemployment, reducing the economic pressure which makes for emigration and will in general bring the nation back into the position in which the old confidence will reassert itself. These steps must of necessity, be administrative."

I do not think the Taoiseach was very successful since 4th July. He led us to believe that, from 4th July up to the resumption of the Dáil, different plans would be formulated for increasing production and for increasing employment. That did not happen. We have not seen any legislation since 4th July that would promote more employment and we have seen no encouraging signs. As one of the other Deputies said, the main talk seems to be on the possibility of our having to enter the Free Trade Area.

Every time anybody on this side of the House mentions the Irish language, we are supposed to be sneering at it. In my opinion, all these references to the language and to the Free Trade Area, at certain functions, are a type of red herring. I am, always have been, and I hope always will be in favour of the revival of the Irish language, but because my view as to how it should be revived differs from the view of the Taoiseach, it does not suggest that I am anti-Irish or sneering at the language. If we are to get this sort of red herring thrown across the trail any time we talk about the Irish language, then it is time we all folded up.

Undoubtedly, there is a colossal problem to be faced as far as unemployment is concerned, especially in the rural areas. I know that the problem in the City of Dublin is of tremendous proportions, but, leaving Dublin aside, it seems to me that the bulk, and the vast bulk, is in the rural areas. According to the industrial analysis from mid-February, 1958, there was a total of 60,000 people unemployed who ordinarily would be employed in building in the rural areas, on roads and different construction work, in farming and forestry. Therefore, it seems that if we are to alleviate unemployment to any large extent, we will have to devote a great deal of our energy to the problem in the rural areas.

It is true that the cost of living has increased—nobody can deny that. According to the consumer price index, the cost of living has increased by nine points since this Government took office. That means an approximate increase of 7 per cent. and therefore I do not think anybody can deny that the standard of living of the main sections of the people has been worsened to a very large extent. While I know that some of the increase may be attributed to outside influences, I think it would be right to say as well that the major portion of the increase is the direct responsibility of the Government through the Budget which they introduced in May of last year.

Having said all that, and endeavouring in brief to show what, in my opinion, is the condition of the different sections of the community, I want to say that the Government are not entirely to blame, but they must take the major share of responsibility, as we were expected to do and did take the major share of responsibility for our term of office from 1954 to 1957. Outside influences have been against this Government as they have been against Governments since the establishment of this House 36 or 37 years ago. One of the things that, in my opinion, affects the economy of this country, and consequently affects the lives of the ordinary people, whether workers, farmers, industrialists or businessmen, is the price of money. The tragic thing about Governments in this country and the tragic thing about this House—and I might say the futility of Governments here and of this House— is the fact that whilst we can control the price of bread, farm machinery, cigarettes, or any commodity you care to mention, the one important thing which we cannot control is the price of money.

Whilst none of us—and I speak about Parties, not individuals—seems to have any solution for this money problem, the fact is that if the bankers in England, or the British Government, say that money is to go up by 2 per cent., we have got to follow. If they say that money is to go down by 2 per cent., we naturally follow, willy-nilly. Mind you, the bank rate in Britain has increased, or fluctuated, over the past ten to 15 years to correct a situation that is entirely different from the situation that we have experienced in this country over the past ten to 15 years. The Bank of England and the British Government wanted to correct a certain situation, where, in fact, they had too much employment, where they had inflation. We had an entirely different and opposite situation and to correct their situation in Britain, the bank rate went up by 1 or 1½ per cent. and we had to follow.

We had mass unemployment and tens of thousands of emigrants going from this country. We had to make money scarce by following the British and increasing the bank rate, which meant that we could not build houses to the extent to which we wanted to build them and could not engage in any type of capital expenditure. Agricultural expansion and industrial expansion were limited. The fact that the price of money went up meant that houses were dearer and made it difficult for people to pay the rents for them, and even made it difficult for them to accept houses offered to them. In short, it created unemployment and the fact remains that as long as our money system is attached to that of the British, and unless we can get some definite arrangement whereby we can manipulate the price of money to suit ourselves, we will have this unemployment and depression which many of us have spoken about over the past ten to 15 years.

As I say, we cannot control the price of money. We can control the price of practically everything else. Whilst money was scarce, whilst we could not expand industry or agriculture, the tragic fact is that the bankers' profits increased in 1956 and 1957. The Minister for the Gaeltacht seemed to sneer at one of the remarks of Deputy Costello who said that the Suez crisis had created unemployment. It did, of course, create unemployment. It was not the major factor, but it contributed substantially to it, and the Minister for the Gaeltacht ought to know that better than anyone else. The Korean War also affected employment. The beginning of that war in 1950 affected this and practically every other country in the world. Many of the countries were geared for war and we all know the effects that war has on every country. Suez was the same. Britain, France and America were ready to engage in a major war and the Minister for the Gaeltacht says that that was just poppycock, as if it were just a game of marbles to be played in the Middle East.

As the Korean war and the Suez crisis affected us, so, too, will the Free Trade Area have a terrific effect on us. In Paris to-day, somebody expressed the opinion that free trade would never come and I am inclined to doubt whether it will ever come, but one thing is certain, that is, if free trade is to come to this country, we here will not have the slightest say in it. I appreciate what the Minister for Industry and Commerce was doing at these conferences in Paris. His being there ensures that the Irish view is put, and, if he were to travel over there every second week, he would be doing a good job. Without any disrespect to the person of the Minister for Agriculture, I would far rather that the Minister for Industry and Commerce represented Ireland at these talks than the Minister for Agriculture.

This Free Trade Area will mean the ending of many of the industries in this country. Unfortunately, it will do that. The pattern for the establishment of industries in this country is one of protection all the time, and I have no objection to it. Can any Deputy say, in respect of any body of businessmen whom he brought to the Department of Industry and Commerce regarding the establishment of an industry, that the first question they did not ask the officials of that Department was: "What protection are we going to get?" How many of the industries established in this country over the past 20 years were established by promoters who said to the Minister and to the departmental officials: "We do not want any protection; we are prepared to compete with every other factory that makes the same articles as we do, whether it be inside or outside Ireland"? What the process is going to be with regard to entry into the Free Trade Area I do not know—whether it is going to be a gradual process or not—but, if this Free Trade Area is to come into being by a certain date, it will mean ruin for many of the industries in this country, and will mean unemployment in a lot of other industries affected.

I cannot understand one thing and I addressed a question on this matter to the Minister for Industry and Commerce last week. Why does the Government not engage now in a colossal campaign asking people to buy Irish manufactured goods? All of us know that even at the present time there is a tremendous prejudice, a stupid and ignorant prejudice, amongst certain sections of the community against Irish-made articles. It may be true that many may be defective. They may have their faults and the price may not be right, but how many appreciate that these articles and goods are made by Irish workers, that they are keeping Irish workers in employment and that, apart from those considerations, the Irish made product is as good as, if not better than, the imported product?

We have that prejudice not only amongst the consumers, but amongst those who sell. I bet that every Deputy has had the experience of going into a shop to buy a suit length, some time or other during the past ten years or so. He has looked over and casually fingered cloth and then, because he does not appear to be satisfied, the shop assistant will say: "I have a lovely bit of British stuff here," and out is trotted the British suit length which certain of the shop assistants sell in preference to the Irish-made article.

On the other hand, we are inclined to be very parochial in our outlook, as far as buying Irish is concerned. In certain areas in the west, they do not manufacture shoes, and when many of the people in those areas enter a shop, they are not particular whether they buy American, French or British shoes. However, if there were a shoe factory in their own town, they would be very careful then to buy the Irish-made article. Some of them forget that, by buying these Irish-made shoes or boots, they are keeping Irishmen in employment in Kilkenny, Dublin, Cork, Cavan and hosts of other places. For that reason, I think the Government should engage in a big campaign to encourage people to buy Irish goods, because, if and when this free trade business comes along, it will mean there will be a flood of British, German- and French-manufactured articles that will be sought and bought up by certain people in this country who have a prejudice against anything made in Ireland.

I have already said that many of the difficulties are not of the Government's making, but we have got to realise that we cannot remain aloof from the effect of wars, or any conflicts, major or minor, that go on in the world. We cannot shut our eyes to the fact that the whole economy of the country can be affected by a fluctuation in the bank rate over which we have no control, and we should appreciate that, if we have to enter the Free Trade Area, it will have a tremendous effect on the country's economy. In respect of the Free Trade Area, I might say it will not be our decision whether we enter it or not. It must be recognised that if Britain decides to go into the Free Trade Area, we have got to follow her because 90 per cent. of our business and trade is done with Britain. For that reason alone, whatever Britain decides, I am afraid we will automatically have to follow.

The point I want to stress is that we should not attempt to make political capital out of any difficulties that might arise from abroad, from outside sources. Fianna Fáil, when in opposition, made political capital out of certain difficulties that were not of our making, that arose out of the Suez situation, and further back, in 1950, that arose out of the Korean situation. I do not think we should do that, and if there is some outside event which affects the policy of this Government, we should not make political capital of anything which might flow from it. As far as policies in regard to external and international affairs are concerned, I think we, of the Labour Party, should always be behind the Government.

At the present time, we have some control over the balance of payments problem. At least, we can take certain action to rectify it. When free trade comes, it will increase our difficulties and our problems will be bigger. In those circumstances, I do not know of any Government action that can be taken to correct a balance of payments problem. There was a tremendous balance of payments problem in 1956 and one of the things which contributed to that was the fact that the price of cattle dropped very much. Speakers from the Fianna Fáil side of the House tried to represent in some way or another that the former Minister for Agriculture was responsible for the drop in the price of cattle. I cannot understand that. The Minister for Agriculture does not determine the price of cattle.

That is right.

According as the British market goes up and down, the price of our cattle rises and falls.

But he took the credit when it went up.

I am not speaking personally for Deputy Dillon, or the present Minister for Agriculture. I am merely attempting to say that if we had a balance of payments problem in 1956, it was not due to anything the Government did or did not do. It was contributed to in a very large degree by the fact that the price of cattle went down. This Government have been lucky in that the price of cattle has remained pretty high and they will not have the difficulty we had in 1956. The inter-Party Government provided a certain remedy for the situation that arose in 1956. There was a big difficulty as far as the balance of payments was concerned. The indications of an adverse balance of trade appeared only in the latter portion of the first half of 1956 and, in July, the Government took action. It may have been drastic action—the imposition of the special import levies—but it did the trick, and that problem was resolved by the time the Fianna Fáil Party became the Government.

It created a certain amount of unemployment in the distributive trade and in the motor car assembly trade. But it was necessary to do it for a limited and stated period in order to ensure that our imports and exports would balance to some extent. Fianna Fáil had the same problem in 1952. They did not employ the same methods as the inter-Party Government. Their method was to diminish purchasing power by increasing prices. That was also a method which, in my opinion, created a tremendous amount of unemployment—so much so that in February, 1953, unemployment had risen to 89,000 odd.

There were two remedies by different Governments for a correction of the balance of payments problem and they both brought about colossal unemployment—under our Government something in the region of 90,000 and, under Fanna Fáil, 400 or 500 fewer than 90,000. We did not get much sympathy at the time. People were hollering about the price of oranges, the price of this, that and the other. Fianna Fáil had the best of both worlds in relation to the special import levies. The balance of payments problem was corrected for them. They removed certain of the levies, but they reimposed them as duties. In my constituency I heard people hollering about the price of oranges. The special import levy was taken off and the price only came down from 1/6d. to 1/5d. Similarly, we put on a special levy on motor cars but, when it was supposed to have been taken off by Fianna Fáil, there was no drop in the price of motor cars. I did not see any drop in the majority of the things in relation to which the inter-Party Government imposed special levies. Fianna Fáil, therefore, had the advantage of having the balance of payments problem corrected and they had the advantage, too, of having increased revenue, even though they called it by a different name.

The solution lies—this is a hackneyed phrase to use at this stage of the debate—in increased production. Mark you, one does not get increased production merely by saying we should have it. The workers and producing sections of the community generally, to put it bluntly, want to know how. What does increased production mean? What will the benefits be? Will there be any reward?

I do not pretend to talk for the farming community at all. I have the utmost sympathy with the small farmer, but not with the rancher. I do not pretend to know a great deal about agriculture but, as far as I can see, whilst the farmer has been asked to produce more to get the country back on its feet the fact remains that, if he produces too much of any commodity, he is penalised for his over-production. In those circumstances, we find ourselves in a very peculiar situation at the moment, especially in relation to the price of wheat. Here, on this side of the House, is a Party which is alleged to have said that some of them would not be seen dead in a field of wheat. Here, on this side, we have another Party which appealed to the farmers to grow more wheat—to grow more and more wheat. The farmers grew more wheat, more wheat than they ever grew under Deputy Dillon, and they are penalised for growing it.

I can neither understand nor reconcile those attitudes but I do know that, if the farmers are disappointed in the price of wheat, they have nobody to blame except Fianna Fáil for it was Fianna Fáil who led them to believe the sky was the limit so far as the price of wheat was concerned. It was a case of, as somebody said here recently, "anything you can do I can do better"; if Deputy Dillon gave 2/6 Fianna Fáil promised 5/-. That went on over the years until now we discover we have too much wheat and we do not know what to do with it. Whether or not the 100 per cent. Irish loaf will be successful, I do not know. Some of us would like to know how such a tremendous quantity of wheat has been produced here. I remember a time when somebody said that the yield from an acre was seven barrels; now it has gone up to 22.

That is right.

I do not know how it jumped in 12 years from seven barrels to 22. Someone suggested it was because of the increased use of fertilisers and limestone. Who introduced that scheme?

Deputy Dillon. There was not an egg-cupful under Fianna Fáil. There was not a thimbleful.

I was posing the question: How do we increase production? If we increase agricultural production, have we got the markets? Granted we should grow enough wheat to satisfy our own needs, but we cannot export wheat. Nobody wants Irish wheat. We must, therefore, go back to the much abused policy—a policy undoubtedly opposed by Fianna Fáil—of cattle and dairy produce. That was the basis of the agricultural policy propounded by Cumann na nGaedhael away back in the Twenties. The production and export of cattle and dairy produce is the only solution as far as export markets are concerned. I do not see any other crop or produce which it will be profitable for us to export.

Now, how does the worker increase production? He will work hard but, as Deputy Kyne said, in the majority of our industries if he works harder—and I do not say that he can work harder; I have seen how they work in foundries—what happens? I have seen a situation in which manufactured articles were piled high in warehouses and men were laid off. These are problems which will have to be tackled, not alone by the Government but by the members of the Dáil in general.

The Government say they are now getting away from the expenditure of money on non-productive items. Recently I said that we were inclined to blame ourselves too much—not that we should pat ourselves on the back. But we have spent a tremendous amount of money and energy in building up the dilapidated country that we took over in 1922. One of the tragedies has been that we had to build houses, schools and hospitals, lay roads and build bridges, and expend money and energy on all the things which had been neglected by Britain while she was in occupation.

The Government say we must get away from that expenditure now. Employment is to be expanded by private enterprise and private initiative. Fianna Fáil must take a great deal of the blame and a great deal of responsibility for the particular situation in which we find ourselves at the moment. Fianna Fáil always led the people to believe that so long as there was a Fianna Fáil Government there would be employment on houses, on roads, on the building of schools and hospitals and all these other things. In fact, and this may seem strange coming from a Labour Party representative, the members of the Fianna Fáil Party led the people to believe that they could depend on the State. They gave the people a false sense of security. They played that up to such an extent that they even distributed free beef. They led the people to believe that as far as social security and health were concerned, so long as Fianna Fáil were there, everything would be all right.

For a particular reason, Fianna Fáil gave this country a health scheme. Fianna Fáil are the Government now and were the Government from 1951 to 1954. But it was proved by the local authorities, as well as the Minister for Health, that Fianna Fáil did not want to implement the health scheme properly——

The Deputy may not argue the health scheme on the Vote on Account.

It was only a passing reference, Sir, to demonstrate how dependent on the State the people now find themselves for employment and welfare schemes. Now, at this stage, they are asked to switch over and forget about road work, house building and the building of schools and hospitals. They are told we are not spending any more on that type of work or that we are cutting it down drastically, that they now have to depend on private enterprise and personal initiative.

The change cannot be effected too quickly. I know hundreds of people, even in my own town with a population of 12,000, who regard themselves, and who were meant to regard themselves, as builders of houses; I know hundreds of people in the rural areas who believed that forestry was to be continued and that they would get employment in forestry or on the roads. Now these people have become unemployed. How and where are they to be absorbed? I am not posing this question to Fianna Fáil alone but to every member of the House. From 1948 to 1951 and from 1954 to 1957 we engaged in the same type of activity. We had 20,000 road workers at one stage and tens of thousands of building workers. The situation now is that all that is to be cut down drastically Where is the industry or other employment into which these people can be switched?

We spent millions on housing. Since 1932 various Fianna Fáil speakers have pointed to the thousands of houses built all over the State. They were built and they gave valuable employment. Schools were built and roads made as good as they are to-day. A tremendous amount of money was spent on activity of that kind. That money was spent on roads, the majority of which are now in a reasonably good condition; spent on hospitals, of which in some cases we have too many; spent on schools, on bridges, on clinics and different things. Why cannot the money spent on these projects be now injected into industry and agriculture?

I do not know how it is being dissipated or where it is gone. For example, there is approximately £1,000,000 less for housing in the Vote for Local Government this year. I do not think it would be unreasonable to expect, in view of the fact that thousands of men who were heretofore building houses have lost their employment, that the money taken from the Estimate for housing should now be injected into industry or agriculture.

Some people fight shy of the establishment of industries by the State. Nobody wants absolute State control, but in our present circumstances the Government should seriously consider the establishment of industry. They were not loath to do it in respect of the production of turf, and in the development of electricity and transport in this country. Would it be unreasonable for the Government to establish some factory which would absorb the timber that will come from our forests in a very short time? Would it be unreasonable for the State to interfere —because that is the word usually used —at a time when we have thousands of unemployed and tens of thousands gone to Britain? Would it be unreasonable to ask that moneys heretofore spent on houses, schools and roads should now be used for the establishment of industry to absorb those who were led to believe they would get employment either from the State or the local authorities?

I do not know whether or not we have unofficial ambassadors from this country in the United States at present seeking American money or capital for the development or establishment of industry in this country. If it is true that some members of the House have gone there with the blessing, if not the official sanction, of the Government to seek money from abroad, it seems there is a changed situation.

I remember members of the Fianna Fáil Party being very critical of Deputy Norton when he expressed the view that we ought to get capital from abroad. He was called a traitor. He was told by certain members of the Fianna Fáil Party that he was selling the country. We had Deputy Childers on the Supply and Services Vote in October, 1956, bitterly criticising Deputy Norton and telling him he had not explored at all the possibility of getting people in Ireland to invest money in Irish industry. Despite the qualifications mentioned by Deputy Dillon, the Government should make every effort to try and get capital into this country for the establishment of industry.

At present, as always happens at this time of the year, the Government are under severe criticism from people who pose as representatives of the taxpayers and from associations that claim to be representative of the ratepayers. The Press takes a hand as well. I might say that as far as the Press in this country are concerned we very seldom see a leading article of encouragement. All Governments are criticised for being lazy, wasteful or indulging in too much expenditure, but there never is an encouraging word. This is the time for the representatives of taxpayers' and ratepayers' organisations to tell the Government what they should do. Not alone do they do that but they appear before the county councils and tell the elected representatives what they should do. Yet they are the people who had neither the guts nor the courage to stand for election themselves.

These are the very same people who, when the rate is struck and the Estimates adopted, will come along to the various county councils and corporations and say it is a scandal that no provision is made for the road along by such and such a place. They are the very same people—there are a lot of them in the farming community— who will wonder why they will not get free hospital treatment. Yet they complain that too much is being spent on health services, on roads and on housing. They are the very first people to appear on deputations before county councils asking that more and more services be given and yet they are the people who refuse to approve of an increase in the rates.

These people forget that all this money is going for the service of the people in their own particular functional area, whether it be in Cork, Tipperary, Wicklow or Wexford. It is not money going abroad. If it is being paid by a shopkeeper as rates for home assistance or for road workers' wages, it means that that money will be spent back in the same shops. The wages of road workers will be spent in the same area. But the people will have to realise that they will have to pay for the services which they demand and not imagine that the rates are collected from some outside source.

I heard Deputy Kyne speak here about abuses as far as State expenditure is concerned. I agree with the sentiments expressed as far as social welfare abuses are concerned. Again the leader-writers and different associations would have us believe that a person on the dole or receiving unemployment or sickness benefit is a scoundrel getting money under false pretences, that he is perpetrating a fraud on the public by accepting these benefits and that actually he is stealing the money.

These are services provided by this State. Unemployment assistance is in the nature of a free grant to somebody who has no work or means; unemployment benefit is contributed to by the recipient and supplemented by the State. We are all very careful about the grant given to the unemployed or sick person, but are we as careful about grants distributed in other directions? Are we absolutely certain that grants given to this or that section, to the business community or the farming community, are properly spent, or that they are not obtained by fraud? I have known people who got grants for drainage and reclamation, grants supposed to be grants-in-aid to supplement whatever cash these persons had to drain their lands, but they actually made money on these grants. If it is fraud for an unemployed man with a wife and two children to work one day in the week, surely it is fraud for a farmer with £60, £70 or £80 valuation to get money from the State on the pretence that he needs it to drain his land while he is actually making a profit?

Are we certain that the money given to the private individual for house— building is not fraudulently obtained? How many of us have heard of people who go to build a house, get a grant from the local authority and a grant from the State, build the house, live in it for six months and sell it, and then go off and build another house and still qualify for grants from the local authority and the State? Is that not greater fraud than the unemployed man with 31/- a week who tries to supplement that by getting a few shillings more doing a hard day's work for a farmer, for example?

I do not want, and I shall not attempt, to go into details about milk prices. I have often heard comments about trade unionists and I have often heard criticisms from people who are not workers or members of trade unions about the scandalous behaviour of members of trade unions—how they would attempt to sabotage the economy of the country in one way or another by the alleged threat to go on strike, say, in certain hospitals and so on. How much worse is the threat of some milk producers here to say that they will not encourage the operation of the bovine tuberculosis scheme? Is there anything more criminal? I do not care whether they have a case or not. Granted they have a case about the price of milk, is there any justification for saying they will not encourage the eradication of tuberculosis in cattle, if not for the export market, surely then for the sake of the health of the children and the people generally?

I think it is a shocking decision for any organisation to make. Let them have a grievance; I do not think the way to fight is to let the disease remain in the animals, to the detriment of our health, and certainly to the detriment of the cattle trade of the country, because if my information is correct—I may be corrected in this— by 1960 the British authorities will not accept cattle that are not fully clear of tuberculosis.

I did not hear the Minister for Lands, but I read portion of his speech, and he repeated what he said on other occasions, that the period prior to 1948 was the beginning of the slump here because Labour and Clann na Poblachta promised so many things and led the people to believe that all these things could be voted to them overnight, if only they were prepared to put them in the Government. I do not know what the Minister referred to: he always seems to find an excuse for Fianna Fáil. I do not want to engage in a brawl of that type, but if it is true to say that the difficulties of the past eight years are due to promises made by Clann na Poblachta and the Labour Party prior to the 1948 election, how much more is it true to say that many of our difficulties at the present time were caused by the outlandish promises the Fianna Fáil Party made in 1932?

Fianna Fáil should not regard themselves as being absolutely infallible. I assume members of the Front Bench who are now having their third term as Ministers do not themselves believe Fianna Fáil to be infallible; some back-benchers seem to imagine that because Fianna Fáil are in power, all is right with the world. Such is not the case. It is not sufficient merely to have the name of the Government you want; you must have a Government that is prepared, first of all, to state its policy, and then carry it out.

In this debate, we have not had a statement of policy. The Minister did as his predecessors have done—gave a short analysis of the different Votes in this Vote on Account and left it at that. He may be able to take me up on some point I made, on some sentence I uttered, but I think the Minister would be doing the House and the country a tremendous favour by attempting to declare policy, no matter what the policy may be, when he comes to reply.

I have always felt depressed when a Minister for Finance or any Minister or speaker comes into this House, as many do, armed with a half-dozen volumes of the Dáil Debates and forages back through them to smack Deputies opposite with what they said in 1935 or 1955. If we have difficulties in this country they are of our own making. Various Governments have made improvements: Fianna Fáil made improvements when they came into office, as the Cumann na nGaedheal Government did when they took office. The inter-Party Government likewise made improvements during their terms of office, but despite that we still have big numbers of unemployed and tens of thousands emigrating, undeveloped industrial potentials and to some extent, a stagnant agricultural industry.

These are problems for which we must all share responsibility. There is no point in going into the past, no point in smacking people with what they said years ago. The problem is too serious for us to indulge in that sort of activity, and I would, therefore, appeal to the Minister to declare policy when he replies. I know it will be necessary for him to answer points made by certain speakers, but I would ask him to devote his speech to the past 12 months and to endeavour to state policy on behalf of the Government for the 12 months to come.

First, I wish to refer to a few points made by the last speaker. Deputy Corish wants to know why money was not available for housing immediately Fianna Fáil took office. He compared the work done by Fianna Fáil with the work done by the inter-Party Government in 1948. When the inter-Party Government took office in 1948, having defeated Fianna Fáil at the hustings by misrepresentation, Deputy Seán Lemass, as he then was, as Deputy Leader of the Party, said to that Government that Fianna Fáil had given over the country to them in a sound financial position and that they should give it back to Fianna Fáil in the same condition. The inter-Party Government had a very nice jumping-off ground in 1948. The country was in a sound financial position. There was a number of schemes already under way and everything was in their favour.

Deputy Corish also wants to know what Fianna Fáil did for the workers and farmers. We did everything possible for the workers. We gave protection to industry to encourage people to invest money in industrial projects.

I never asked those questions.

It has been alleged that we made too many false promises. Fianna Fáil gave protection to the tillage farmer and the present Minister for Finance gave protection even to the market gardener. In 1948, when I was trying to secure protection for market gardeners and growers in County Dublin, I was often misrepresented by the Minister for Agriculture at that time, Deputy Dillon.

Fianna Fáil gave the Irish farmer every possible protection in the home market. The farmer was protected in the matter of wheat, beet and other crops. We gave the tillage farmer reasonable protection and a price for his crop, in the hope that we would not have to import £1 worth of goods that could be produced at home. That was a sound policy, as a result of which thousands of people were put into gainful employment in industry and agriculture.

In certain fields there is full production. Now we have to seek export markets. The people whom the National Farmers' Organisation and the Creamery Milk Suppliers' Association represent got all the protection necessary from Fianna Fáil. A negative approach was made to the problem by the Fine Gael Party when they passed a vote of censure on the present Minister for Agricultural. I say to the Fine Gael Party in County Dublin that the Minister for Agriculture was a good friend of the farmers and the market gardeners in the county, and in the short time that he was Minister for Agriculture gave any help that he could give, within reason, to protect the farmers. That applies to market gardeners, tomato growers and wheat growers.

If the Opposition, who are so vocal in the country, were placed in the position that the Minister for Agriculture is in to-day and were asked what would they do in a situation of almost overproduction of certain commodities, what would be their reply? The negative approach of the Fine Gael Party to a national problem will get us nowhere. Responsible persons outside this House who speak on behalf of the farmers should be realistic and any criticism they have to offer should be of a constructive nature. If the Minister for Agriculture were not giving maximum protection to the farmers, I would not stand up here to speak. The Minister for Agriculture would not do anything contrary to the wishes of his Party.

There must be a fresh approach to the economic problems that confront us. When the Opposition talk about money, I ask them what money did they leave in 1957, when the Fianna Fáil Government took over? In what state did they leave the country? Had they not scuttled the old ship? Now they expect us to work miracles in a short period. The problem we now face is to get a market for our surplus produce.

During the last year there has been a surplus of milk in County Dublin. Through the initiative of market gardeners in the Rush area an export market has been obtained for vegetables. The present Minister for Agriculture helped in that matter and gave me the names of possible buyers in Glasgow, London and Liverpool. We want men with initiative and drive to find markets for our surplus production.

There must be a national stocktaking and we must find export markets for surplus produce. That is where personal initiative comes in, the personal genius that is often responsible for saving a country. We have got into the habit of blaming every Government for all our misfortunes. I am delighted to see Deputy Dillon here because I had many a row with him in the past in regard to protection for farmers when he was Minister for Agriculture. Fianna Fáil gave protection to the Irish farmer. We told the farmers that we would allow nobody to compete with him in the home market. As a result of the protection given to industry and agriculture, we are now confronted with the problem of disposing of our surplus produce.

We did the best we could for the dairy farmers. We gave them quite a few increases for their milk during the time we were in office. To-day we have surplus butter and dairy farmers are annoyed because they cannot get a further increase for their milk to-day. They want more money. Every person in the country wants more money, Even Deputies are not satisfied. It must be remembered that any money that is given in this House can be secured in only one way, by taxing the people as a whole. If the dairy farmer makes strong statements that he will not assist in curing the cattle suffering from bovine T.B., then he is not giving the co-operation he should give. Any farmers or group of farmers who act in that manner are pulling the chair from under themselves.

I would suggest to the dairy farmers that they should organise themselves into a business executive and say: "Here we have a national problem. Why should we depend on the Government for everything? Why should we not pool our own resources in an effort to sell our exports?" Other countries carrying on an export trade have pooled certain resources. They did it in Holland when they were exporting tomatoes here and at a very low price. During the time the price was rather high at the beginning of the season they agreed to pool so much money and use it for their own advantage at the end of the season when prices were low. The dairy farmers in Ireland should form a similar body for this purpose. In the meantime, the dairy farmer should be a little more constructive, a little more original and not blame the Government for everything. That is a negative approach, an approach that is doing our country considerable harm. We have given as much protection to the farmers as we can. Passing votes of censure on the Minister for Agriculture for the time being is unreasonable. The Minister for Agriculture deserves sympathy and co-operation from responsible bodies during this national crisis.

The position was completely different a few years ago when we had a sellers' market for certain goods but we have reached the stage when that sellers' market is practically gone from us. We have enough produced in those commodities and we must change to something else for which we can get an export market. As everybody knows, our cattle trade is very important to us. The cattle trade is helping to a great extent to improve our standard of living. I cannot understand, therefore, why any responsible body like the dairy farmers or the National Farmers' Association should say: "We will not do this if you do not do that." If they adopt that attitude it demonstrates that they have not the welfare of this nation at heart.

We need the full co-operation of the farmers and other people who can produce, not destructive criticism. The Minister for Agriculture is expected to please everybody and that is an impossible task. I thought I would have heard at least one constructive speech from the Opposition so that the people of the country could say: "There is one honest man on the other side who is doing his best to solve this problem by making constructive suggestions." Instead of that we had all the speakers opposite condemning the Minister for Agriculture and condemning the Minister for Finance. Deputies opposite do not seem to realise that we are doing our best to save the country from the situation in which it was when we took over. Provided we get a little time, I have faith enough in our Government that we can do that. We are being asked to shovel out money without increasing taxation. I should like some of the critics outside who seem to be very vocal in their attacks on the present Government to tell us how we can get money here or what we should tax in order to get it.

They were not manly enough to do that. They remind me of an old play in which I took part on one occasion.

I am sure you did.

I was somewhat young, of course. The theme of the play concerned the taking of a pound of flesh and the prohibition of the shedding of one drop of blood.

Were you cast for the role of Portia?

That is the position in which we find ourselves to-day. The critics have cures for all our ills.

I would gladly give a pound note to see that play.

What part had the Deputy?

During the election campaign of 1948, Fianna Fáil were accused of building luxury hotels for foreigners and leaving the poor people to starve. On many an occasion while I was on the hustings in County Dublin the members of the Opposition shed crocodile tears. Fianna Fáil were endeavouring to put the tourist industry on its feet. When we left office, a sum of £30,000,000 was available to the country from the tourist trade. I have not as many documents with me as my colleague, Deputy Lynch, had when he was speaking—I have to depend upon my memory.

The power of invention is better.

Members of the Opposition criticised the tourist trade. The tourist trade was also criticised by members of the Opposition who are no longer in the House. I remember seeing posters along the Swords Road suggesting that Fianna Fáil were not building any houses for the poor but were concerned only with bringing in foreigners. But the greatest miracle that ever happened occurred subsequently. Deputy Norton was elected Tánaiste in 1948. He went down to open Butlin's Camp and spoke about the tourist trade. He said the tourist trade was worth £30,000,000. He had changed his mind within six short weeks in regard to the tourist industry. It was now a wonderful source of income.

The tourist industry, after the cattle trade, is our second greatest industry. It behoves each and every one of us to help it in every way possible. We should encourage people to come here and so assist us from the point of view of our balance of payments. We were subjected to much adverse criticism for the manner in which we supported the tourist trade and for the encouragement we gave to foreigners to come to Ireland. There is not a civilised country in the world that is not trying to do that, and I should like to see more money spent on encouraging people to come to Ireland. If we are to survive, we must deal with the problems which most concern us.

I look upon both the tourist industry and the cattle industry as our two main sources of revenue. I am somewhat displeased regarding one of our export industries, namely, the whiskey trade. I often feel very sore that our export of whiskey is so poor when compared with the Scotch whiskey export trade. It would be worth our while to see how the sale of Scotch whiskey is handled in the United States. I am told that when they first went to sell Scotch whiskey in the United States, they got hold of one of the greatest advertising firms in the United States. If our own exporters are unable to spend money to capture the markets in the United States, it would be in the national interest if the Government could subsidise our whiskey export. If this were done, we should be able to get a wider market for our whiskey in the United States.

I have been almost 14 years in this House, and during that period I have listened to several questions being asked in regard to our whiskey trade. I have often asked myself the question why we did not export more spirits to the United States, when other countries succeeded in doing so. I believe we failed because there is not enough money put into advertising. If the whiskey is not palatable from the point of view of the American taste, surely we should be able to make the blend more suitable. These are the exports that matter, and if we are to survive, we will have to concentrate on some major exports.

A number of people have gone into the export trade and have tried to sell their goods in foreign countries. They have succeeded in doing so on their own initiative. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has given a great impetus to the export trade because he has endeavoured to encourage anybody in every way possible to get into the export market. Córas Tráchtála are doing a reasonably good job. Anybody who makes a proposition to any member of the Government or any Deputy in regard to the export market will be given every encouragement possible. Everyone on the Fianna Fáil side of the House is very much alive to the importance of the export trade.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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