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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Mar 1958

Vol. 166 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—Medical Attendance on Cork Patient.

In relation to the question which I raised in the House to-day and taking into consideration the reply from the Minister and in particular his replies to the supplementary questions, does a member, by asking such a question, incur the wrath of the present Minister for Health? The Minister made mean insinuations to-day. He went so far as to state that I had some old spite against the doctor concerned. Let me now say, as I stated already to-day, that never once in my life have I spoken to this man and never have I seen this man. Let me go further in defence of my honour and point out that, when an appointment in a certain hospital was being made recently, a young doctor was a candidate and I was asked to support him. Because he had the necessary qualifications, I supported him and voted for him. He happens to be the son of the man against whom the Minister states I have spite.

The question to-day had a direct bearing on the Health Act. Members of the Labour Party supported the present Minister and his Party when, as a Government, they introduced the Health Act. The Labour Party supported the Act because they believed that its introduction and implementation would give the people a better health service. For that reason, and that reason alone, the Labour Party were united in supporting the then Government.

In relation to the present case, I should point out that it concerned the illness of a baby boy. His mother attended the doctor in question and, being the possessor of a medical card, asked the doctor to attend the home and examine the baby. The doctor refused. His statement was that because of the shortage of petrol, he was unable to travel a distance of between two and two and a half miles. This was at the time of the Suez Canal crisis, and the doctor's excuse was shortage of petrol. Nevertheless, we all know that even though petrol was rationed at that time, doctors were not denied sufficient quantities of petrol to enable them to attend their duties.

I have a report from the father of this baby. He also wrote to the secretary of the South Cork Board of Public Assistance. As it was my duty as a public representative so to do, I raised the matter at the following meeting. After a discussion it was agreed that the parents should attend at the office of the assistant county manager and put their case before him in writing. This they did. The assistant county manager also got a report from the doctor and in that report reference was made to the fact that there had been some dispute of which I knew nothing and know nothing now. There was some dispute between himself as a doctor and an aunt of the baby in question. Surely, any dispute which may have occurred between a medical practitioner and a particular patient was not in itself sufficient to warrant the refusal of the doctor to attend the home in this particular instance.

He went further. As a last resort, while refusing to attend the home of the patient, he gave a note of admission to the local authority hospital. The baby was brought there and taken into the hospital where it received every possible care. However, a question arises. In view of the fact that the doctor did not examine the baby or even see it, what of his diagnosis of the case? My information is that the diagnosis was wrong.

The case was then submitted to the Department of Health. As stated by the Minister to-day, it was sent on the 26th February, 1957. Let me say this for the Minister for Health. Credit is due to him for the fact that the letter sent on the 26th February was acknowledged and answered on the 8th March —roughly a week later. According to that particular letter, further inquiries were made. Let me clear the case on this issue. The letter that was sent out roughly a week after receiving the first letter from the Cork board was sent out not at the behest of the present occupant of the Department of Health. It was sent out by his predecessor, a man who, by his actions, proved his interest in the case— Deputy T.F. O'Higgins.

On the 15th March, the assistant county manager replied to the Department and made it clear that, because some of the questions asked of him in the letter of the 8th March had a direct bearing on certain medical etiquette, it would be impossible for him, as a layman, to answer it. The Minister's office received that letter on the 16th March. Then what happened? Nothing was heard in spite of the fact that on many occasions inquiries were made at meetings of the South Cork Board. The matter was going on so long that a letter was again sent in the month of September asking for further information.

The letter was sent on the 4th September, but the Department, under the management of our present Minister for Health, acknowledged that letter of the 4th September only on the 26th October. As stated by the Minister to-day, further letters were sent from Cork to his Department on the 26th November and the 12th February of this year. In reply, one lonely letter arrived in Cork from the office of the present Minister on roughly the 6th or 7th February this year.

It is interesting to consider part of the reply given by the Minister to-day. He states that much grave concern is felt, that, to use his own words here, "it became apparent that the large number of patients covered by medical cards in the dispensary district in which the complaint arose had a bearing on the issue". Let me tell the Minister, should he not be aware of it although I do not believe it, that recommendations, submissions and applications in relation to alterations in dispensary districts have been in the Department of Health from the South Cork Board of Public Assistance for at least the past eight or ten years. Unfortunately, the southern committee got no support or little support from either the Department of Health or, indeed, from some of the dispensary officers concerned in trying to improve the situation in these areas. Does the Minister now suggest that people are expected to await the decision of some Minister for Health in the far-distant future before they can expect a doctor to attend to his duties where they concern the holders of medical cards in these areas?

It would be interesting to know the views of the Minister in this particular case. The Minister again, in his vicious attitude adopted towards this question to-day, made certain suggestions not alone to me for raising this question but to my colleagues, Deputy Casey and Deputy M.P. Murphy. On many occasions, considering it to be my duty, I raised this issue at southern committee meetings. On different occasions I rang the Department of Health. I got nothing but the greatest co-operation from the officials in so far as they were concerned. I did all that because this case was going on for so long, and because we could get no decision on it. As far back as the January meeting of that board, the chairman—a decent, respectable member of the present Government Party—suggested that the only course open to me was to table a question for reply in the Dáil. I stated then without any hesitation that I would be slow to adopt such an attitude in so far as it affected an individual case under the Health Act. Ultimately, I had no alternative. I had to adopt the course I adopted today—little expecting the type of reply I received from the Minister.

The Minister may say that something has happened during the past couple of months. That is quite true. An official of the Department of Health, at the request, I presume, of the Minister, called on the parents of this baby. Certain questions were asked. The irony of it was that each question that was asked had already been answered. The answers to each question had already been submitted both verbally and in writing to the manager of the southern committee by the parents on this particular issue. Therefore, I am entitled to ask the Minister for what purpose or reason was an official of the Department sent from Dublin to Bishopstown, County Cork, to seek information already at the disposal of the Minister.

I do not wish to be too long on this discussion. However, what struck me as most forceful and interesting were the Minister's mean insinuations, to which we are so used in this House, in his reply to a supplementary question by my colleague, Deputy M.P. Murphy, in relation to national records. Surely it had no direct or even indirect bearing on the treatment of a patient? When national records were required, the member he so rudely interrupted to-day was but a baby in arms. Some of us, because of our age, cannot claim any connection with a national record. However, we can openly say that on each and every occasion when we had an opportunity we gave full credit to those people who possessed such a record.

I want to ask the Minister this question. Does this mean, from his statement to-day, that the holder of a national record can, even when he is a doctor employed by a local authority, with any degree of justification, refuse to attend in the case of the illness of a baby? Does it mean that the holder of a national record can, at his own discretion, give a note for admission to a hospital without knowing anything about the illness of the baby?

A good member of Fianna Fáil is dead—God rest his soul—a Cork man. As the present Minister for Health knows, he had reason to report a specific instance affecting the same medical officer. He had reason to fight to the utmost in the Department but, unfortunately, hard fighter as he was, he was forced by certain organisations to drop the case; and the Minister, I am fully convinced, is fully aware of all the facts in relation to it.

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy, but I would point out that the time for the raising of this question runs from 10.15 to 10.45. That is, the half-hour. The Deputy still has five minutes.

That being the case, is it not strange that one member of this House, now Minister, should when in opposition accuse some of us here of not being interested in the proper implementation of the Health Act? Is it not with a touch of irony that we had to listen to him to-day defending a person who, under such pretext as I have already mentioned, refused even to see a little baby? Considering the importance of such an issue, are we now to be told that the Health Act, which was to be so greatly improved by the present Minister and the present Government, provides for the people nothing better than consideration by a medical officer as to whether he should see a patient or not?

That is the question at issue. There may be many other cases identical to this; there may be many other cases identical to the one which was fought by Con McGrath—God rest his soul— but believe me, let the Minister understand this—he cannot have it both ways. In this instance, although I had supported a member of that family for a certain post, I believe that friendship should not come between me and my responsibilities to the public. I believed that, because I am responsible to the people whom I have the honour of representing, it was my duty to discard friendship in the interests of those people. Perhaps I differ—it seems definitely that I do differ—with the present Minister. He wants friendship with people, far and above his responsibilities, not as a Deputy in the House but as a Minister.

Let him understand, therefore, that he may twist his reply; he may accuse members but there is one thing about which he cannot fool the people. By his very statement here to-day, he made it clear to the House and clear to the people in the country that if a friend of his has a national record, that in itself would be sufficient for that person to say that because of shortage of petrol he could not see a baby, because of shortage of petrol he would give an admission note to a hospital stating in that note that a baby was suffering from a particular complaint, at a time when it had been proved that otherwise was completely the case and the facts were entirely different.

Might I be allowed one minute?

Yes. The Deputy may avail of the spare time.

As I became rather inadvertently involved in the whole matter, I should like to say that it is regrettable and not in the best interests of the House or the best interests of the country that a very serious question, such as that which was tabled by Deputy Desmond to-day, should be responded to in such a manner by the Minister as to make it necessary to bring up this matter on the Adjournment at all. I think the Minister, as Minister for Health, should be the champion of the person who is in possession of a medical card. That person is entitled to the free services of a dispensary doctor in accordance with an Act of this House and the Minister for Health should be the champion of that person. He should not view even with suspicion, much less with abuse, a person who endeavours to come along in defence of that person. I am sorry the Minister handled this in the manner in which he did. If he had dealt with it in a more serious and more responsible manner, we would not be here at this hour of the night discussing it.

I dealt with this question in a responsible way. Deputy Desmond, who lectured us for 20 minutes, dealt with it in a completely irresponsible way, in a partisan way. The doctor concerned in this case did not refuse assistance. The supplementary question to which I gave the reply to which Deputy Desmond has objected was this:—

"In view of the fact that the Minister has the full file in front of him, is he still satisfied that a medical officer can refuse assistance to a person covered by the card?"

This medical officer did not refuse assistance. He saw the mother of the child. The mother of the child described the symptoms to him and, in view of what she said, he warned her that the condition of the baby was serious and that the best thing to do was to remove it at once to hospital, and he gave her a ticket to St. Finbarr's Hospital. I have asked some medical advice on the matter and I am told that very many doctors would hold that, in the circumstances as I have described them, that was the right thing to do.

I have to deal justly with everybody —with patients, with those who complain about doctors, and with doctors. I have to hold the scales evenly. There is an extraordinary conflict of evidence in this case, even as between the father of the child and the mother of the child. Deputy Desmond has told the House that certain statements were taken from the three persons concerned in this matter—from the mother of the child, from the doctor concerned, and there was a written statement from the father of the child. The father of the child said this in his written statement—of which Deputy Desmond apparently has had a copy. I think perhaps he may have written it.

On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, is the Minister entitled to make a charge that I may have written that statement?

I am entitled to think what I like about the Deputy.

All right. I shall meet the Minister again.

Having regard to the manner in which he has handled this case—the Deputy had better listen—here is what the father of the child said.

I think it would be better if the Minister did not make the statement.

Indeed, I withdraw the words, but I retain the thought.

That is not a withdrawal.

If Deputy Desmond does not want the answer——

If the Minister says he withdraws the words but retains the thought, it is simply saying the words all over again. If the Minister does not say he retains the thought, I accept the withdrawal, but otherwise I cannot accept it.

Sir, I shall not say: "I retain the thought", because I have to deal with the question which has been raised here by Deputy Desmond.

The Minister may retain the thought, but may not express it to the House. That is all I want.

Very well, Sir, I am sorry. I should not get into this sort of argument. In a letter which was written to the county manager on the 16th, the father of the child said that on the third instant his son took suddenly ill. That is what the father said in the written statement of which Deputy Desmond has a copy.

Deputy Desmond has not and never had a copy.

The Deputy told me he had.

He did not.

At least I understood him to say that.

I never said it.

Mrs. Finnegan, the mother of the child, said to the doctor and to my inspector—she stated to the assistant county manager and to my inspector—to two people—that the child had been ill with green diarrhæa for seven days. Now, I said there was a conflict of evidence in this case. There is a conflict between the parents of the child, between the parents themselves.

The next thing that arises is that he said that the wife took the medical card to the house of the doctor concerned and the wife claimed that she described the symptoms. The wife herself says in her statement that she described the symptoms to the doctor concerned—and she described them to the doctor in the same terms as she described them to my medical inspector. As a result of that description, the doctor came to the conclusion that the best thing for him to do, the best thing for the child, particularly having regard to the circumstances under which these people live, was to have the child removed immediately to hospital; and he gave her the card.

In her statement the mother of the child then proceeded to inform both the assistant county manager, and my inspector subsequently, that she met a person who told her that the case was serious in view of the symptoms which the child was manifesting, so she then got a car and brought the child to another doctor.

Now, why did she not bring the child to the doctor to whom she had recourse in the first case? That, I think, is something that wants some explanaion. Why did she not do that? It was as easy for her to take the child to the dispensary doctor concerned as to another doctor.

A third discrepancy arises. In her statement, she said that this other doctor gave her a prescription which cost her 19/-. Four days later, the cost of that prescription had increased to 33/-. She also said that the doctor to whom she brought the child had charged her a fee. At first, she was not prepared to state what the fee was, but four days later she stated that she had been charged £1.

The doctor against whom these accusations are made stated, first of all, that he did not say anything about petrol. The only person who could have heard that observation, if it was made, was the child's mother. I think the facts which I have recited to the House indicate that, after all, if her statement was uncorroborated, as it was, the denial of the doctor should at least carry equal weight with me. As I have said, I have got to do equal justice between all parties in the case and I am not going to prejudice the decision which I shall make in due course. I have also, however, to take another matter into consideration—the circumstances in which the board, of which Deputy Desmond is a member, compelled this doctor to work. I think he is responsible for the medical care of between 6,000 and 7,000—if not over 7,000—persons who are covered by medical cards.

Ask Deputy Healy. He can tell the Minister all about it.

That is a matter which is being dealt with separately from this issue by my Department. May I say that when my predecessor was in office, he tried as I have been trying, to get the South Cork Board of Assistance to give some relief to the particular doctor concerned in this case. Apparently in this case all the doctors are wrong and all the Labour Deputies are right——

Ask Deputy Healy, who is sitting beside you.

——but I am not going to proceed on that basis.

(Interruptions.)

Here is an overworked doctor to whom Deputy Desmond and others will give no relief, but I am led to think——

That is not true.

Shut your mouth.

I will not shut up for you.

I am entitled to take into consideration the circumstances under which this doctor works and I shall do that when I issue my decision in this case. We had hoped that the whole problem of the dispensary districts would have been cleared up before now and that then we should have been able to consider this particular matter without any complicating circumstances.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.45 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 21st March, 1958.

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