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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 21 Mar 1958

Vol. 166 No. 6

Industrial Credit (Amendment) Bill, 1958—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

The Industrial Credit Company was established in accordance with powers given by the Industrial Credit Act, 1933. The authorised share capital of the company is £5,000,000, of which £2,000,000 has been issued and paid up. The issued capital is in the form of £1 shares, of which shares to the nominal value of £1,991,393 are held by the Minister for Finance. The balance is in private ownership.

The purpose of this Bill is to improve the arrangements for financing the Industrial Credit Company, Limited, and so to facilitate the provision of capital for the development of industry. It is Government policy to increase the flow of capital to productive investment and, in this connection, great importance is attached to the role of the Industrial Credit Company as a specialised institution for the provision of capital for industrial enterprise.

The Bill will improve the position of the company in this regard in three important ways: Firstly, it will enable the Minister for Finance to take up directly shares in the company without the necessity for a public issue; secondly, it will enable the Minister for Finance to guarantee the principal and interest of borrowings by the company; and thirdly, it will enable the Minister for Finance to guarantee the payment of a minimum dividend on shares of the company held by parties other than himself.

These extensive powers should give the company all the facilities necessary to meet any foreseeable eventualities in raising additional capital and in a manner which will recognise the special position of the company in financing new industries. I shall now elaborate on the three additional powers I have mentioned.

Under the provisions of the 1933 Act, shares in the company can be taken up by the Minister for Finance only when an issue has been made by the company for public subscription and the Minister has agreed to take up such shares as the public do not apply for. In effect, therefore, State assistance to the company has been confined to the underwriting of public issues of shares by the company. This is an awkward and unnecessary restriction which does not apply in the case of other State-sponsored companies. From time to time market conditions may make a public issue by the company inadvisable, but as the law stands it would have to go through all the formality and incur the expense of a public issue before the State could invest another penny in the company's shares.

Under the revised arrangements now proposed, it will be possible to make advances from the Central Fund for the purchase of shares, if so desired, without any prior offer or issue of shares being made to the public, who up to this have taken up very few shares in the company. With this obstacle removed, it will be easier to increase the capital resources of the company. The power to purchase existing shares will also be available should the necessity arise.

Secondly, it is proposed under the Bill to take power to guarantee borrowings by the company by way of the issue of debentures or loan stocks or otherwise. In the Bill as circulated, there is a limit of £2,000,000 on the amount of borrowings which may be guaranteed from time to time. Recent developments indicate that this limit may be too low, and I propose to introduce an amendment on Committee Stage providing for the higher limit of £5,000,000. Thirdly, as I mentioned, power is being taken to guarantee the payment of a dividend on the shares of the company held otherwise than by the Minister for Finance. No immediate occasion for the exercise of this power is in view, but it is desirable that the company should have this facility in reserve as a possible means of attracting capital resources in the future.

The Industrial Credit Company has now been in existence for almost a quarter of a century, and during that period it has played a most important part in the development of Irish industry. It is still the only organisation in the country devoted solely to acting as an underwriting and issuing house for industrial securities and operating generally as an industrial financing body. During the period of its existence, the company, with a relatively small permanent capital, has been responsible for the provision of some £16,000,000 of capital for Irish industry. This substantial sum has consisted in the main of capital moneys raised by public flotations underwritten by the company. The balance has been provided in the form of loans, advances, guarantees, etc., for industry.

A test of the success of an issuing house is its ability to secure capital for industrial enterprise on a scale much greater than its own permanent resources would allow; indeed, it must seek not to have these locked up for long in any particular venture but to turn them over as frequently as possible. By this test, the Industrial Credit Company has been quite successful in very difficult circumstances.

Not only have the company's activities been benficial to the national economy, but, so far as the narrower Exchequer interest is concerned, I am happy to be able to say that moneys invested in the company have yielded a return to the taxpayer. The company has made a profit from the outset and for many years now it has been paying a dividend of 4 per cent. on its share capital. This is a very creditable record when it is borne in mind that little or no return may be obtained from its investments in new industries during their early years and I wish to pay a special tribute to the directors and staff of the company for the success which they have achieved.

It has been evident for some time that the resources of the Industrial Credit Company would have to be enlarged to enable it to continue its task of encouraging new and financing extensions of existing industrial enterprises. There are reasons for expecting that the new industries of the future directed in the main towards export markets, may require rather heavy capitalisation, if only because of the substantial post-war rise in the cost of capital equipment. One has also to envisage that adjustment to the conditions of freer trade in Europe will necessitate considerable outlay on the adaptation and modernisation of existing industries. We are, therefore, facing a future in which the scope and importance of the functions to be discharged by the Industrial Credit Company will undoubtedly increase.

The authorised share capital of the company, which is £5,000,000, is considered sufficient for the present but, if and when the need arises, proposals will be brought forward to increase it. As I indicated earlier, £3,000,000 of share capital can still be issued within the existing limit. When the new limit of £5,000,000 is appointed for guaranteed borrowings by the company, the total amount which it will be authorised to raise by way of fresh issues of share capital and by guaranteed borrowings will be £8,000,000. The company also has power to borrow where this does not involve the issue of debentures or a Government guarantee.

Negotiations have been proceeding with the Irish commercial banks to secure their participation in the provision of fresh capital for the company. The banks have, of course, played their part in the financing of industry directly by way of advances for working capital and even for long-term capital purposes. It is, however, a common feature of industrial financing in other countries that the banks provide most, if not all, of the capital for specialised institutions like the Industrial Credit Company. This method of financing industrial development offers advantages to the banks themselves as well as being in the national interest. It spreads the risks of individual banks over a wide field and insulates them from identification with the fortunes of individual firms. Also, it places at their disposal for investment purposes the experience and specialised services of an organisation established to cater for the particular needs of Irish industry.

It was suggested to the banks that they might consider participating by taking up a substantial block of shares in the company, if necessary, with a guaranteed minimum dividend; but I understand they would prefer to make their contribution in the form of guaranteed loan stock rather than shares. What matters—and I am glad to announce this—is that they have agreed in principle to make a contribution amounting to £1,800,000.

This will enable the Industrial Credit Company not merely to discharge completely its own overdraft indebtedness and to finance directly its liabilities under existing bank guarantees, but also to have available, over and above this, a balance of about £400,000 for new business. Further, a provision of £500,000 was included in this year's State Capital Budget which will be used to purchase shares in the company as soon as this Bill is enacted. The company will, thus, have almost £1,000,000 at call for new projects apart from whatever may become available to it by the turning over of its existing capital.

This is the first occasion on which the banks have participated on a long-term basis in the financing of the Industrial Credit Company and I would like to express the Government's appreciation of their co-operative approach and of their practical assistance in this, no less than other aspects of national development.

As to the company's further capital requirements, I hope it will be possible to arrange for tripartite financing on the basis of contributions by the banks, insurance companies and the Exchequer. Apart from being a channel through which Irish savings might be made available for productive industrial development, the Industrial Credit Company could also serve as a medium for investment of foreign institutional capital in Irish industry.

Arising out of the enlargement of the resources of the Industrial Credit Company, Limited, it is proposed that the system by which loans for industrial purposes are guaranteed under the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Acts should be replaced by an alternative system by which similar loans will be provided by the Industrial Credit Company. One advantage of this change is that applications for assistance in this form can be dealt with more expeditiously and with fewer legal formalities than are necessary under the present system. There is also advantage in having one organisation dealing with the provision of assistance from State sources for industrial development by way of share and loan capital.

From the date of the change, the acceptance of applications of the ordinary kind from industrial firms by the Department of Industry and Commerce will cease. In all cases which would previously have been referred to the Advisory Committee set up under the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Acts, the applicants will be referred to the Industrial Credit Company. In settling the amount of resources to be provided for the credit company from time to time account will, of course, be taken of any additional needs of the company for the purpose of their new function.

The statutory limits fixed under the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Acts have nearly been reached, and no further loans of any size could be guaranteed unless amending legislation were enacted. It is not proposed to repeal the Acts, but it is intended that recourse to them will be made only in very special circumstances to deal with cases which would not come within the functions of the Industrial Credit Company.

It is unnecessary for me to speak at length on the need for increased productive investment. There is now general appreciation that we must increase significantly the proportion of the nation's capital resources which is devoted to such investment if the economy is to expand, thereby creating additional real wealth and much needed additional employment. The new arrangements which I have outlined are designed towards this end in the sphere of industry.

The Government are determined to ensure that the resources of the Industrial Credit Company will be ample to meet all reasonable requirements arising out of the financing of industry and would be very pleased to see a sustained growth in these requirements. Industrialists may, therefore, proceed with their plans in the knowledge that no industrial project with worthwhile prospects, particularly export prospects, need be frustrated by lack of necessary capital and I trust that this knowledge will give a general stimulus to efforts to establish new, and to expand existing, industries.

This is an appropriate occasion on which to express appreciation of the investigation that was made into industrial credit by the Industrial Credit Company, Limited, at my request. As a result of that investigation, measures for the provision of new industrial credit now come before the House. The examination that was undertaken by the directors of the company at that time was an exhaustive examination which must have been of assistance to the Minister, just as it was of assistance to me in considering aspects of industrial credit and the provision of new credit.

I am not absolutely clear about the announcement that the Minister has just made in relation to the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Acts. Am I to understand that no further applications are to be lodged under these Acts, or is the Minister merely giving advance notice that at some future date the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Acts system will be terminated? It is important that it should be clear beyond question, because there are projects—I know of one at the moment—whose sponsors are considering the form of their application to the Department of Industry and Commerce for a trade loan guarantee. I should like the Minister to make that clear——

It will not be a sudden cut-off. Those that are there will carry on, I presume.

I understood the Minister to say that cases already before the committee, or which were going to a committee, would be referred to the Industrial Credit Company, but, however——

I think it depends on what stage they have reached.

——when the Minister is replying, perhaps he could make the situation clear, because it is obviously a thing about which there should be no uncertainty whatever.

When originally formed in 1933, the Industrial Credit Company was, as the Minister indicated, floated as a public company, but it is clearly the type of company which would be most unlikely to attract private investors in the form in which it was floated. Of necessity, industrial finance that has to be provided by a company of this kind must be finance which will take some time to earn a profit. It is inevitable that the early, formative years of any industry should not be highly profitable, to put it mildly. In ordinary industry, the industry may get over that difficulty in a couple of years and then begin to reach a position in which it is able to pay dividends to the shareholders. The very function of the Industrial Credit Company, however, means that such finances as it sponsors for the provision of new industries keep on turning that wheel round and round and it would therefore be almost inevitable that the company would not be able to deal with its dividend awards in the same way as any ordinary concern.

At the same time, as the Minister said, the Industrial Credit Company has dealt satisfactorily with the situation, but while it has done so from the point of view of being a body existing for the provision, on behalf of the State, of industrial finance, it is very different from ordinary private investment. It seems to me quite clear that some method, such as was visualised by the company concerned, of bank participation, for shares, for loan stock or for overdraft is obviously essential.

Of course, it is not only in this country that industrial finance has been established in this way. In Britain, their Finance Corporation for Industry, which was instituted in 1945, provides capital on a large scale for the re-equipment and the development of industry which is so vital towards productivity at the present time. As I understand, the capital of that corporation is some £25,000,000, and it was provided there by the Bank of England, by the investment trusts and the insurance companies. Even though it has a capital of that size, I think it operates almost entirely on loan capital provided either by overdraft or by loan stock—I am not sure which. Because of the special nature of the job to be done it, for example, has never paid any dividend on its share capital, realising that the provision of capital for industry is more important than the remuneration of its own capital.

There is also there another body, the Industrial and Commercial Finance Corporation, Limited, which was also established by the State for the same type of business, but, perhaps, for smaller ones. Again, the capital in that case was provided by the banks in England and I think examination of its accounts shows that the finance that is made available to that corporation is made available at a very low rate of interest. I should be glad to hear from the Minister whether any specific arrangement has been made in relation to interest rates for the £1,800,000 that he has indicated will be provided on this occasion by the banks.

Without in any way cavilling at or demeaning the assistance which the banks are giving by the provision of this loan stock, I say it is not an additional provision of £1,800,000 or anything like it, because the first thing that will be done out of that amount is the repayment of the bank overdraft already there.

In Canada, the Industrial Development Bank, which was established as a subsidiary of the Bank of Canada, was provided to do the same type of work and it seems that there, again, the provision of the necessary capital was made possible by the banks.

A similar organisation has been established in South Africa, and there the Government alone owns the share capital, but it operates also on loan capital. The loan capital in the South African example is very much smaller than the share capital.

I am inclined to the view that a provision by way of share capital would have been preferable, but I do not think it matters an awful lot. The essential thing is that the capital be available and in that respect we must consider the over-all question. I shall not discuss it in any detail to-day, but one of the things that have got to be considered is the apportionment to the various claims, the priorities of the various claims on such capital as may be available in the State or as may be capable of being provided in the State in a non-inflationary way.

I want to make it clear that, while I welcome wholeheartedly the provision of additional capital for industry, I hope that the twin brother, and the more important of the twins, agriculture, will have the capital necessary for its development. Without in any way running down industry, I say that the foundations of the State and the economic future of the State depend much more on the development of agriculture, although we all want industry to develop side by side with it. Industry cannot develop, except on the basis of a prosperous agriculture, and I trust that, while we are discussing the question of capital for industry to-day, the provision of additional capital, as and when it may be required, for agriculture will always remain in the forefront of the mind of whoever is Minister for Finance.

I welcome the decision to transfer the trade loan facilities from the Department of Industry and Commerce to the Industrial Credit Company. There are just one or two matters which the Minister may be good enough to clarify for me. This guaranteed loan stock is intended to pay off the present bank overdrafts of the Industrial Credit Corporation? Is that correct? As far as that is concerned, it will not give any additional capital to the banks?

It does. There is additional capital provided for, yes.

Their capital is provided as to £400,000 which, apparently, they have available at the moment, plus £500,000 which is being made available from the Government, giving them almost £1,000,000 in new capital, which the Minister has stated should be adequate for their requirements. I wonder is the Minister quite correct in that statement. If, as we hope, there is going to be a substantial expansion of industrial activity, particularly in regard to exports, I doubt if £.9 million would be adequate to finance the new concerns, especially if outside concerns, whom we are hoping to entice here to manufacture, particularly for export, are to have access to this new capital also. Would the Minister say if the funds of the Industrial Credit Company will be available to outside companies who establish industries here? Would he say if it is intended that the Industrial Credit Company will compete with the industrial banking companies, mainly of outside origin, of which there are quite a number in the country at the present time and which are competing actively in this country for the available supply of funds by offering interest rates as high as 8 per cent.?

As Deputy Sweetman said, it is obvious that the Industrial Credit Company cannot hope to entice private capital into its funds, as long as there are concerns competing with them and offering interest at as high a rate as 7 per cent. and 8 per cent. I should also like to ask the Minister if the present liabilities of the Trade Loan Section of his Department will be transferred to the Industrial Credit Company when this change-over comes and also, in addition to Deputy Sweetman's question about the rate of interest, may I ask if the Minister will give particulars of the repayment terms of the guaranteed loan stocks from the banks?

As one who has had some experience and some contact with the officers of the Trade Loan Section of the Minister's Department, I should like to pay a tribute to the efficiency and courtesy of these officers while these loan facilities were being dealt with by the Department. I think that any industrialist who had occasion to seek funds from the Trade Loan Section will agree with me that the officers there were competent, courteous and could not have been more helpful. Having said that, I do believe it is a desirable change to transfer this section into a separate company with a statutory basis.

Has the Minister given any thought to the question of the personnel of the Industrial Credit Company. I do not wish to be taken as criticising the present directors but, taking the long term view of the necessity to expand industrial production, I believe it is very necessary that the board of the Industrial Credit Company are active and also that it would be possible for industrialists to get rapid decisions there in regard to the provision of capital. In addition to the present personnel I would like to see in this company one or two commercial directors with knowledge of commercial and industrial practice.

Generally, I welcome this transfer but I hope that the £.9 million which will be available will not be adequate for its requirements and perhaps the Minister in his reply would indicate how it is intended to provide additional finance if and when it is required.

This Industrial Credit Company heretofore has acted mainly as an underwriting body to sponsor the issue of shares and, in fact, when in the ordinary course of its business it has found itself retaining part of a public issue it has concerned itself to dispose of that issue on the market so far as the market was prepared to absorb it. I think that kind of organisation is necessary in order to facilitate the underwriting of public issues but sooner or later in this country we will have to make up our minds as to whether we want to make it possible for the old established family business to survive or not.

The old established family business is a good type of business socially and economically, but we must bear in mind that the maintenance of that type of industrial or business activity is not consistent with the public issue of shares because with the transfer of a private business to the register of public companies it ceases to be a private business, and the time has come when the Minister for Finance, considering this question of industrial finance, should ask himself the question whither his policy leads.

If the Minister agrees with me that the maintenance of the old family firm, provided it is enterprising, is desirable, we have to face these facts, that with the present rate of taxation on the earnings of private corporations, whether distributed or not, it is becoming impossible to accumulate the capital necessary to meet the rising charges of business or industry in our time and it is increasingly difficult for private firms to get from their banks the kind of accommodation they require to carry on their business, because bankers in our system, as distinguished from the German system, do not want to carry quasi capital commitments for their customers. The ideal from the bankers' point of view is an overdraft that is at regular intervals extinguished.

I do not know in how far under this new dispensation it would be possible for the Industrial Credit Company to make loans of a quasi permanent character to businesses. That would be a mere interim solution but if we are to maintain the best kind of business organisation from a social point of view, in my opinion, we will be forced to the conclusion that the only satisfactory procedure would be declare that in future corporate profits would be taxed not on the occasion of being earned but on the occasion of their being distributed and that where firms were prepared to re-invest their profits in expansion, modernisation and development they would be free to do so on the clear understanding that when profits derived from that investment came to be distributed to shareholders they would be subject to the customary rates of corporation and income-tax.

Unless we are to reconcile ourselves to the fact that all private family business at present existing in this country is gradually to vanish and to be absorbed by public companies or combines of one kind or another, as is happening on a very large scale at the present time, we will have to devise some kind of machinery to make the survival of the private firm possible.

There is a case in point where that is actually happening and it is to the great detriment to the whole social structure of the country. It is partly due to this problem of finance and partly, I admit, due to other causes. But has the attention of the Minister for Finance been directed to what is happening in the bakery industry? We used to have—and I think it was a most salutary thing—a multitude of small family businesses baking bread. They were scattered all over the country. Many of them were operated by the family, but some of them were operated by the family, assisted by considerable employed labour. With the development of that kind of business, it became necessary to instal a drawplate oven, the expensive pre-1939 equipment, which was considered necessary for economic operation; but we have passed on from that now and, as a result of competition from other types of equipment, it has very rapidly become as uneconomic as the old peel oven was.

There were very few family businesses in this country which were ever able to accumulate sufficient capital to contemplate the installation of that kind of expensive machinery. Without the flotation of shares and the raising of capital on the business market, there was no possibility of getting anywhere the means to instal this type of equipment. The result is that within the past five years we have seen a very rapid development in the centralisation of the bakery trade in the hands of a relatively few wealthy operators who transport bread over wide areas. The inevitable result is that the small family business is disappearing.

I admit there are factors operating in this field other than financial problems, but there is no doubt whatever that lack of capital or the inability of small units to get the type of capital necessary to put them into the modern style of trade is contributing to the evil I have described. It is also true —and it must be faced—that the tendency in the bakery trade to which I refer is being further promoted by the desire of flour mills to procure certain outlets for their milling quota. That undoubtedly contributes to this evil I have described, but the availability of capital contributes also.

Let me put two points to the Minister. First, as far as small industry is concerned, I do not think underwriting facilities are of any great value. They are of value to large business companies and are undoubtedly a necessary part of our economic set-up. Secondly, if the small unit in industry or business is to survive in this country, it requires, I think, two things. One is access to long term loan capital and that is not available in the joint stock banks. I think it right that it should not be available in the joint stock banks in our set-up. That is not the primary purpose for which joint stock banks function here. But, over and above that, I believe that in connection with this whole question of financing industry and business, we ought to consider whether, without any detriment to the public revenue, it might not be possible to arrange that the profits of such businesses would be taxed on distribution.

I want to say that I was grateful indeed for the memorandum issued by the Industrial Credit Company on capital and industry which was referred to by Deputy Sweetman. This document, which was drawn up in 1955, was very helpful indeed. The £1,800,000 being invested by the banks is invested at current rates of 6 per cent., but will vary with current rates. The banks made a rather strong fight for loan capital, rather than share capital. If it had been done in the form of share capital, it would be one of the places where we would have had to guarantee the rate, I am sure. It would be fixed interest and would not vary again. It is not easy to determine which is the more favourable, but as far as we are concerned, that is the position, anyway.

On the whole, I would have preferred it in the form of share capital, but we are very glad to get it in any case. The reorganisation of industrial credit brings to mind whether we could do something in relation to the twin industry of agriculture also. As Minister for Finance, I must say that I would be very sympathetic to any proposals made in that way. I do not think it is want of money in that case. It may mean some reorganisation to get it to work more effectively.

With regard to the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Acts, the position is that I am not repealing those Acts, but it is intended to hand over all cases to the Industrial Credit Company when this Bill becomes an Act. With regard to existing cases in process of being considered, a lot will depend on the stage reached. If they are near completion, the Department of Industry and Commerce will complete them. If they have only been received, they might pass them over to the Industrial Credit Company for consideration.

Should a company that is now anxious to file an application under the Trade Loan Acts not file such an application and give it to the Industrial Credit Company?

Let it be filed with the Department of Industry and Commerce. I think we will guarantee that there will be no delay on account of the change-over in considering any case put in. Deputy Russell asked what became of the present loans. They will remain with Industry and Commerce and the Department of Industry and Commerce will see the guarantee through to the end. With regard to others which they have already overtaken, they will not hand over their liability to the Industrial Credit Company. The Industrial Credit Company will commence only from a given date to consider guarantees. Then we will give the guarantee they consider wise.

As I said in my opening speech— this is again in answer to Deputy Russell—when the Industrial Credit Company get this £1,800,000 from the banks, they will pay all their liabilities, both by way of debts and guarantees, and they will have £400,000 left. The Estimates this year will provide, on the capital side, £500,000 from the Exchequer. That makes £900,000. What I said was that that is sufficient for the present. When that is run out, more money will be provided. The purpose of the Bill is to make it easier to provide money for the company by issuing loan capital or giving a guaranteed loan, as the case may be. The whole purpose of the Bill is to make that an easier matter in future.

Are all these moneys or grants repayable?

Yes, in so far as the Government has put in share capital.

What about the £500,000?

That will be put in as share capital. I have not considered the personnel of the Industrial Credit Company at this stage. It will come up for consideration at the time of the annual meeting.

I am glad to say that I agree entirely with Deputy Dillon in his regard for the private and family business. I think it would indeed be a disastrous thing, both socially and economically, if, as the Deputy said, we should do anything that would make it more difficult for a family business to carry on, whether it is carried on by the proprietor or through the medium of a company. I should indeed be very sorry if anything were done that would make it more difficult for these small private companies or family businesses to carry on.

The Deputy is probably right when he says it is almost impossible for these private companies and family businesses to provide capital. With the various expenses—including taxation— they find it difficult to make more than the ordinary profit which is necessary for the proprietor or the shareholders to live. Therefore, they are at a disadvantage with regard to finding capital for development which the big joint stock company can find. I can quite see the point. How to get over it, I am afraid, is the difficulty.

The question of taxing profits at distribution level rather than when earned was considered very fully, not alone by me but probably by my predecessor or predecessors—Ministers for Finance—on many occasions. It is not considered desirable by any of those who are concerned with the administration of these Acts or with revenue collection. I am quite prepared to say that that should not be a deterrent, if we were up against an extreme case with these family businesses.

The Deputy suggests there should be some way under which these small businesses can get long-term capital. There is nothing to prevent this company from lending to a private company or even a family business. They are quite free to lend and, in fact, they have done so. I made some inquiries about that before coming forward to the Dáil with this Bill. I found that they had actually lent very small sums, down as low as a couple of thousands. I am inclined to think that, in that case, it was short-term capital. I mention it to show that, legally, there is nothing to prevent them from helping the small businessman or the small private company.

Was that done by guarantee?

It was a direct loan. I mentioned it to show that there is nothing to prevent them from doing it.

Were those small direct loans, not merely ad interim measures pending a larger——

No. The type of industry I have in mind was what might be called a small, one-man industry where he had taken in two or three to help him. The loan was made. As I have said, I mentioned it to show that the power is there.

I do not recollect any small case like that being on the list of the holdings held by the Industrial Credit Company.

I think I could probably give two or three examples, without mentioning names, when the next stage of the Bill comes up.

Did the Minister consider the desirability of giving the company power to issue redeemable preference shares?

I am told that the Company Law Reform Committee will consider that point.

The Minister is aware, no doubt, that the company are anxious to have that power, pending the other committee which has been going on for some time.

With regard to the redemption terms of this loan—is that permanent capital? Is the guaranteed loan stock from the Industrial Credit Company redeemable?

On a long-term basis.

On Deputy Dillon's point about the family business, with which I entirely agree, there is one possible way of giving relief which the Minister might consider.

This is the Second Stage. I would remind the Deputy that he can make only one speech on this stage.

We are all in a very friendly mood this morning.

I do not want a precedent to be established.

That would be to increase the Corporation Profits Tax from £2,500 to a bigger sum.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 15th April, 1958.
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