Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Mar 1960

Vol. 180 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote 46—Forestry (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £90,250 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1960, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry (No. 13 of 1946 and No. 6 of 1956), including a Grant-in-Aid for Acquisition of Land. (Minister for Lands).

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

One can hardly put sufficient emphasis on the great importance of forestry. We realise, as the Minister will clearly admit, that forestry and the important work of afforestation will not pay immediate or early dividends. This has been very clearly demonstrated in the statement the Minister made here last night in connection with the fact that Irish timber is in general use in the building trade and that the building trade are coming to recognise that Irish-grown products, properly handled and seasoned, are equal to any of the imported grades.

It must be borne in mind that the timber to which the Minister is now referring was planted many years ago when the initial stages of forestry were undertaken by the Cumann na nGaedheal Government. It shows very clearly the wisdom and the sound judgment of that Government that we have now reached the stage at which our own timber, properly seasoned and in fit condition, can be used in the building trade for constructional purposes. I hope this trend will continue.

The Minister cannot blow his trumpet too loudly in praise of the activities of the Forestry Division because he knows quite well as does every member of this House that, until the period during which Deputy Blowick was Minister for Lands, Forestry was completely at a standstill. The inter-Party Government revived Forestry. They put new life into afforestation.

When the Minister tells the House that the target for the State-planting programme this season is 25,000 acres, one might well ask how that comes about. Is the Minister trying to convey that it is as a result of the policy of the present Government that forestry has made such headway? Is it not a fact that the inter-Party Government made it possible for the Minister to make that declaration here yesterday? All down through the years, the great difficulty in connection with forestry was the acquisition of suitable lands. That question usually cropped up in regard to the presentation of the right and the proper type of title to the lands. The inter-Party Government simplified matters. They made it easier for the Forestry Division to acquire lands. They made matters easier for the vendor anxious to transfer his lands for forestry purposes.

The Supplementary Estimate goes on to deal with the fact that extra expenditure in travelling has been occasioned by the additional progress made in Forestry. It is right to say, and the evidence is there in my constituency— probably more so in my constituency than in any constituency in Ireland with the exception of Wicklow—that a vast amount of very valuable and useful work in Forestry has been carried out. Forestry is one of the greatest works that can be undertaken by any Government.

It is not too encouraging to hear that the total number of men employed by the Forestry Division is 4,800. We all know that a far greater amount of labour can be absorbed. I recommend the Minister to direct the attention of his inspectors and foresters to the still vast amount of land available which the owners are anxious to give to the Forestry Division for planting. Bearing in mind that the Forestry Division are not too generous in their payment for land, it is amazing that so many landowners are anxious to sell. Probably in some cases the land is of poor quality but would be suitable for afforestation, particularly when it adjoins existing forest centres. Every encouragement should be given by the Minister to his Department to enter into negotiations with such landowners to acquire the land by agreement with the least possible delay so that the development work that must be undertaken in respect of the erection of suitable fences, the proper drainage of the land and preparation for planting may commence as soon as possible.

There are many people who feel that if you put a plant into the ground to-day there should be profitable results from it at an early date. Thinning operations require a certain amount of training and skill on the part of the workers. I am glad to say that we have in this country as highly-trained and highly-skilled foresters as are to be found in any country. I take this opportunity to pay a tribute to our highly-technical and fully-qualified foresters. We can proudly boast that no Forestry Department in the world has a better staff of technical men than we have.

I have often wondered if, due to the extra expenditure referred to in this Supplementary Estimate, some of the officers of the Minister's Department are engaged in negotiations with Bord na Móna which has an extensive bog development programme. I have often been puzzled too why there was not a greater measure of co-operation between the Forestry Division and Bord na Móna so that one would be working at the same time as the other. There is a time of the year when Bord na Móna find it impossible to retain the services of their men. At the time Bord na Móna would be letting their temporary workers go, they could immediately be turned over to Forestry where they could be engaged on the preparation of lands for planting or on road making.

Mr. Moran

On a point of order, this may be quite interesting and relevant to the general debate on the Forestry Estimate but I submit it is not in order on the Supplementary Estimate. The Deputy is referring to general policy——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair assumed that the Deputy was referring to road-making as provided for in the Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

There is a provision of £40,000 in respect of new roads and buildings.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has pointed out that that is so.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I see here additional expenditure of £70,000 for the purchase of road materials. I was just about to make reference to road-making because it is just as important to have good roads leading well into the forest as to have a good road adjacent to the forest. Since, as the Minister pointed out, the building trade look upon our native timber as the best they can use, it is particularly important that there should be good roads through the forests so that good heavy trucks and lorries may be used for the haulage and transport of the felled timber.

There seems to be an extraordinary amount of money provided in respect of materials for road-making. We all know quite well that the amount paid by local authorities for sand and gravel to those who have sand and gravel pits is not by any means generous. At the same time, it must be admitted that the Forestry Division in the forests with which I am familiar have certainly very good roads through them. I understand that as the forests become more extensive and as the growth develops, it is for them to extend those roads and construct new branch roads leading off these main roads to the forest.

I would recommend very strongly to the Minister that the width of these roads be not less than the width of the ordinary county by-road. I have seen roads through some of the forests in my area in respect of which a good deal of additional work has to be undertaken in their widening because, in the original construction, the roads were not made sufficiently wide. I trust the engineering section of the Forestry Division will bear in mind the wisdom in road construction of laying a solid and sound foundation with sufficient width to accommodate a double line of traffic.

I am glad to see that the Department have devoted so much of their energies to road-making through the forests. It is of the greatest possible importance. I trust this progress will continue to a greater extent and that it may also be possible to have additional men employed at such work where the local foresters have recommended that the construction of roads should be undertaken.

I note with satisfaction that the Minister refers to the fact that a further factor contributing towards the excess cost of labour is the wage increase of 7/6 per week effective from 2nd January, 1960. If there is any one section of the community entitled to special wage increase facilities, it is the forestry workers, because, unlike the industrious, hardworking county council workers, the forestry worker must take certain lessons from his local forester and no green countryman, so to speak, can be employed properly with success in the forest, unless he has a knowledge of the work he must perform.

That is why I say that the forestry worker should be singled out as the worker who should be given an increased rate of pay. I realise the importance of the county council worker and I realise the importance of the agricultural worker. Nevertheless, I feel that the increase of 7/6 per week, with effect from 2nd of last January, for the ordinary forestry worker was not sufficient and that the Forestry Division should bear in mind the amount of additional work above the ordinary labouring duties that must be performed in forestry work, for example, thinning and planting. At times, a very special type of drainage work must be performed.

An increase of 7/6 per week was granted in response to trade union demands. We know well that the trade unions are quite capable and competent to look after their members. Nevertheless, I feel that the Forestry Division should set the headline themselves and that special provision should be made above the agricultural labourer and above the ordinary county council worker for proper rates of pay for forestry workers. I feel that an increase of 7/6 per week was insufficient, having due regard to the increased cost of living. I have no doubt that the trade unions are alive to their responsibilites in this matter and that in the coming financial year, they may be faced with another demand which I feel will be a reasonable one in respect of workers who have work of a very special character to perform.

I note the absence from the Supplementary Estimate of any reference to the introduction of a pension scheme for forestry workers. I had hoped that some provision would be made for it. Particularly when the Minister dealt with the question of the increase of 7/6 per week, I thought he would have made some reference to the introduction of a pension scheme for these workers. I trust that on the main Estimate, to be introduced very shortly, the Minister will bear the matter in mind.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise on this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

When the main Estimate comes up for consideration, the House expects to hear from the Minister what progress has been made in regard to the provision of a proper pension scheme for forestry workers.

The Minister has not clearly expressed himself, at least to me anyway, in regard to the expenditure of £4,000 on subhead F—Agency, Advisory and Special Services. The incentive bonus scheme is a good scheme but I wonder does that scheme mean more work for the forestry worker or fewer men on the pay roll of the Forestrry Division? I should like the Minister to give the House a little more information in that regard. Am I to understand that this consultant is more or less what may be described as an efficiency expert, whose duties are, if possible, to cut down on the numbers of men employed and to institute a scheme whereby more work will be performed by fewer men? I am not too clear about that. I wonder is it really paying the Forestry Division to spend £4,000 on the services of one man to apply this bonus scheme. I have not been fully informed on this either by the forestry workers with whom I am in contact or anybody connected with forestry. I would ask the Minister to give more detailed information if possible in that regard.

I hope to deal more fully with the sale of timber on the main Estimate. I feel that the trading and sales section of the forestry department is not sufficiently alert and is not yielding as good a return as it might. I believe sales of timber should be divided into various classifications—timber for commercial purposes, for firewood and timber for other purposes. I suppose this could more properly be dealt with on the main Estimate and for that reason I propose to reserve my observations until then.

I can assure the Minister that we on this side of the House have no objection to giving him the money he seeks but we have to remind him and the Government that we are very much alive to the importance of forestry as a major industry in this country from the points of view of the provision of our own timber, the provision of suitable plants, advancing our nurseries and particularly of providing great employment. That is one of the reasons I am so keen on forestry development. I feel that with an extensive and progressive forestry policy we would be quite capable of employing at least 12,000 men in our forests despite the fact that to-day we have only about 4,500 employed.

Mr. Everett

I regret that I have to take a different line in regard to this Estimate and criticise the Department for the manner in which they have carried out forestry administration in County Wicklow. I have been a lifelong advocate of forestry; I supported it when it was not very popular and I regret to find that while in this Estimate increases are being sought, in almost all forests in Wicklow we have had men with long service—ten or fifteen years—dismissed, while we have retained men with less than half that service.

The trade unions always agreed that the man longest in service should be kept longest in the job, that the last man in should be the first discharged. I believe the Minister's Department have received a complaint and I hope they will investigate it. I am making a statement now that I challenge the Minister or his Department to refute. The six members discharged at Ballinglen quarry by a peculiar coincidence are the six men who remained away for a day during the Referendum and Presidential Election. It seems peculiar that these six men were picked out as the first to be discharged while others were retained. An inquiry into alleged victimisation of these men has been sought. Why should they have been singled out of the 70 men at that forestry centre? I challenge the Department to send down an independent inspector——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That would seem to be a matter for the main Estimate.

Mr. Corish

May I submit that it is an urgent matter?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It may be urgent but it does not arise on any of the sub-heads of the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Everett

I want to ensure that action will be taken. We will be in a position to supply all the evidence required to prove that the reports the Minister has received in connection with the dismissal of these men are not correct. If the Minister had the real truth I firmly believe from my association with him that he would not stand over the action that was taken. I believe in County Wicklow we could put a large number of men to work instead of dismissing them to ensure that some of the innermost trees are not smothered with an overgrowth of briars.

I want to point out that the 7/6 increase about which we were told is not such a large one for men engaged in forestry. We know that these men have to travel up to 10 miles to and from work in County Wicklow. If they are an hour late for any reason they lose money. Frequently they do not get the full week especially in the kind of weather we had in recent months. The cash actually paid is much less than the amount they should receive in theory because it is not always possible to provide suitable work.

I should like to have some proper scheme worked out. Many years ago a Minister in that Department agreed that when men reached the entrance to the forest that should count as their time of arrival and not the time when they commenced work possibly two or three miles up the hill. He would allow a concession also where a shower took place and he showed some human feeling so that these men would not be deprived of pay for half an hour or an hour. At that time they had co-operation but, unfortunately, at present there is so much unemployment in rural areas and especially in Ballinglen and Aughrim that there is no hope of men discharged from the forestry service finding employment with the small farmers in the area.

I am prepared to substantiate the complaint that I made. I would appeal to the Minister to try to provide work for the men discharged after a service of ten or fifteen years in forestry. That would probably result in greater co-operation. Personally, I do not agree with some of the union work; possibly it is because they are operating in areas with so little employment that the unions have to be careful but there is a limit to the patience of the men in rural areas and a limit to the patience they have with organisations. Having been a union official all my life, I see their difficulties but at the same time I cannot see a trade union escaping its responsibility and its duties in respect of rural workers, especially forestry workers, who are giving so much to the country at present. We cannot devote all our thought to the cities and towns where there is 100 per cent. organisation. Since we are providing for the others, we should consider the man in the rural areas on low wages. I hope the trade unions will devote the remainder of the year to protecting him from county councils and Government Departments.

Mr. Kitt

I am pleased that the House is agreeable to give this Supplementary Estimate of £90,250 to the Minister. I was glad to learn from the Minister's introductory speech that so much has been done in the Forestry Section over the past 12 months. However, every Deputy looks at this matter from the point of view of his own constituency and I am perturbed about two or three forests in my own immediate area in North Galway—the forests at Clonbrock, Mountbellew and Ballygar, where men have been left off within the past month or so. Other Deputies have said that the same thing has happened in their constituencies. I admit that this sort of thing happens in many State Departments. We have it in Galway County Council. Coming towards the end of the financial year, work generally becomes slack because, possibly, funds are running out; but since we are giving this Supplementary Estimate, I cannot understand how this is happening in my area. I trust that the lay-off of workers in Clonbrock, Mountbellew and Ballygar is merely temporary, coming to the end of the financial year, and that these men will be re-employed as soon as possible. Some of them have been working in these forests for years and are married with families.

It has been intimated to me that there is a new departure in the Department and that they have a policy of using machinery instead of men. I do not know how true that is. However, I am told they brought in machinery to replace men in a virgin bog at Ballygar but that they had to go to the Sugar Company at Gowla farm to get tractors to pull the machines out. In spite of that, they did not employ men but left the machines there until the bog dried up so that the machines could be used again. Machinery may be a good thing and may get the work done more quickly and so on, but, to my mind, there is a social question in this as well as a question of efficiency. Since these forestry workers have built their homes and settled down beside the forests in which they work it would be very unjust to force them to take the emigrant ship and seek employment abroad by replacing them with machinery. I hope that policy will not be followed by the Minister's Department.

I do not know, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, if I am allowed to speak about the intake of land in these forests in which I am interested. I have myself drawn to the attention of the Forestry Section some land which is available adjacent to these forests. I should like to have the intake of land speeded up because if these forests were taken over, not only would there be no unemployment, but I believe we could give more employment. There is one forest in particular, Clonbrock, near Kinclare Caltra, where land has been offered. The amount of land involved is small, only 60 acres or 70 acres of a commonage. I took up this matter with the Forestry Section when I was first elected round 1948 or 1949.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The intake of land is a major question and would relevantly arise on the main Estimate.

Mr. Kitt

It may arise on the main Estimate, but, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, men are being let go. For ten years, I have been asking to have these lands taken over. It is a commonage. Five or six people have made title but one person has not yet done so.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is a matter that does not arise on the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Kitt

I am asking the Department to leave out this person not making title and making no effort to make it—leave him his portion of the commonage and take over the remainder. If that were done, these men being let go would be employed and more would be employed along with them. The same thing applies to Mountbellew, Ballygar and Monivea.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is not in the Supplementary Estimate. The Deputy must relate his remarks to the various subheads. I have warned the Deputy that this matter does not arise.

Mr. Kitt

I shall deal with it later on the main Estimate. I trust the Minister will take notice of the remarks I have made. I congratulate him on providing this extra money and I hope the target he is aiming at in the coming year will be attained.

Mr. Corish

At the outset, it should be said that no Party will object to giving the Minister money for the promotion of afforestation. The Forestry Division may be said to be a productive State department; it gives quite a substantial amount of employment. The Minister says that extra money is required to meet additional labour charges. In view of the fact that afforestation seems to be expanding at present, as it has been for the past ten or 15 years, the Minister would be doing a good day's work if he endeavoured to provide security of employment over a certain number of years for the workers in the Forestry Division.

I know that the work of the Forestry Division is seasonal, that certain types of work are carried out at different times of the year and that it may be found necessary on occasion to let people off. But I think the Minister would be doing something to stem emigration if he could devise some method whereby forestry workers will be engaged for the 12 months of the year, because, as was said last night, nine or ten months' work on forestry is not sufficient for any worker. I know it is difficult to carry a man for two months when you have no work to give him and during a time when you have to pay him wages, but I do not think it would be such a difficult task to arrange the afforestation year to ensure that those workers who have been employed on forestry for nine, ten or 15 years, should get a full 12 months' work during the year, so as to get away from the casual work basis that seems to be peculiar to many types of employment. If this were done in the Forestry Section of the Department the Minister would be doing a tremendous amount to curb unemployment and emigration.

Naturally the Minister cannot know what sackings take place in particular counties and particular forests but I do think he ought to take note of what has been said by Deputy Everett in regard to the sacking of men who were employed for periods of ten and 14 years. Various reasons may be given by those men as to why they were sacked and the officials in the Department may have other reasons but it does seem peculiar, and I believe the Minister will think it so, that men working on forestry for upwards of ten years were sacked shortly after the day of the Presidential Election when, as good citizens, they went out and worked in that particular campaign. Whom they supported, what individual or Party they supported, does not make any difference. In my opinion they discharged a national duty in working on election day and, if they were sacked for that reason, I do not think it could be regarded as fair.

The Minister should not commit himself to-night to reply on that matter but after this debate, if he has not done so already, he ought to satisfy himself as to whether or not these dismissals were proper. In conclusion I would ask him to ensure that as far as employment in afforestation is concerned—I know it would not be simple —he should try to provide employment for 12 months of the year and not for seven, eight or nine months only.

Mr. O'Sullivan

At this stage of the debate there is not much that remains to be said. Deputy Blowick and Deputy O.J. Flanagan covered some of the points to which I meant to advert and Deputy Kitt also referred to some points that were in my mind. As he said, when speaking on an Estimate such as this, one is influenced by conditions in one's own constituency. No doubt the Minister finds it increasingly difficult as time goes on to obtain sufficient land for afforestation but he has an asset in the understanding and sympathy of so many organisations and individuals, quite apart from Deputies here, and through them it is to be hoped he will be able to acquire enough land to maintain the high planting rate now happily being reached or, perhaps, better it.

I should like to know from the Minister what progress was made in consequence of the Bill introduced by Deputy Blowick and which was implemented, with a great flourish of trumpets by his successor, the present Minister for Transport and Power? That was a Bill passed during the lifetime of the last Government which made it easier for his Department to acquire land by simplifying the procedure in regard to the title of land.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not see anything in the Supplementary Estimate on the acquisition of land.

Mr. O'Sullivan

There has been such a wide discussion on forestry——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sorry to rule the Deputy out but I feel that is a matter for the main Estimate, as I informed Deputy Kitt.

Mr. O'Sullivan

I assure the Chair that I would not advert to it if someone else had not spoken on that point. I agree with Deputy Kitt in the appeal he made to the Minister to give precedence at all costs, even at the expense of some slight increase in the cost of running his Department, to considering the social aspect in the spending of money and to remember that, even though a machine may produce better work in a shorter time, it may be at the expense of the employment situation.

In rural parts of the country we all know of neighbours who used to get work on the roads and who are unemployed today because of the fact that machinery has replaced them in road building. Many men look to afforestation for employment and this is one Department which could provide more employment, employment which will have an enduring benefit to the country. In every instance where it is at all possible, I appeal to the Minister to give preference to the employment of manual labour because this is the type of work which calls for personal attention on the part of efficient workers. In his Department the Minister has an excellent team of officials, men dedicated to their work, and I want to join with Deputy O.J. Flanagan in paying tribute to the foresters for the manner in which they carry out their work and supervise the work of others.

As I mentioned already, the Minister has also behind him many voluntary organisations which made it possible for him and his predecessors to attain the target we have now reached and, in this respect, I have just one word of criticism to offer. I have in mind an area where forestry was unknown and where it took quite a lot of local effort to secure land for planting. It was done with the main aim and object of giving local employment but, when the land was secured and the Department took it over, labour was moved in from outside. I agree that the men who were brought in were men who had been working on forestry for some period, but to a certain extent, that negatived the good effect locally. I think it may be detrimental to the Minister in his efforts to secure more land in that area because the people who agitated in favour of a forestry scheme there had as their main reason the giving of a modicum of local employment. I just ask him to bear that in mind.

I shall reserve any further inquiries I have to make for the main Estimate and join with the other Deputies in saying how happy I am that we have reached such a high planting rate. That was not done today or yesterday. It took planning to build up that particular branch of afforestation, and I do not mean any pun in that. It took a number of years to reach the point we have now reached and I hope that progress will be maintained. The Minister will have the help and the assistance of all Parties and members in this House if that can be done.

Mr. Palmer

I shall not delay the House because many of the matters that could be raised on this Supplementary Estimate have already been fully discussed by previous speakers. I just want to bring to the Minister's notice the fact that forestry workers necessarily operate in very open spaces, on mountain sides and so on, and I think ample provision should be made for their comfort. In particular some provision should be made by which they could have a hot meal, or two, during their ten hours' work each day. They start work at 8 o'clock in the morning and I think they finish at 6 in the evening. A temporary structure could be erected, where there are big acreages to plant, and one worker, who might be pretty good at cookery, could take a couple of hours off to cater for the men in that respect. Men have to travel very long distances. At all times, suitable provision should be made for their comfort. Men who are well fed and cared for work all the better. There may be sudden storms or bad weather and shelter should be provided. I would ask the Minister to make suitable provision in that respect.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Moran)

Very many matters have been raised on the Supplementary Estimate which would be much more applicable to the general Estimate for my Department and, therefore, I do not propose to deal with the various questions of general policy that have been raised. In the short time left to me, I just want to give the House some information which was requested in the course of the debate.

Deputy Blowick expressed disappointment at the fact that only 4,800 men are employed in forestry and suggested that the figure appeared to be going down. In actual fact, there are approximately 150 more men in employment this year than there were last year and the trend has been upwards, which would seem to conflict with the view held by Deputy Blowick.

As far as the question of man versus machinery is concerned, there can be very little room for debate, but I should like to make one point very clear, namely, that, without the machines, there is a certain amount of employment that would not become available at all, because, in modern forestry, machines have made it possible for my Department to plant bogs and exposed areas which otherwise would not be plantable. That has brought in its wake additional employment. I should also say that it is the settled policy of the Department, where there is no very radical difference in costings, to prefer man labour to machinery, that they lean in that direction.

I cannot express any view on the matter mentioned by Deputy Kitt in connection with machinery in County Galway, except to state that I shall have it inquired into by my Department.

In regard to the savings and the breakdown of the figures for savings required by the House, the two figures are: savings on nurseries of £8,000 and on machinery, of £26,000, making a total of £34,000 in the year under review. The saving on nurseries was due to the low weeding costs and the increased use of T.V. oil for spraying. The saving in machinery was due to lower requirements than anticipated, both in purchase and hire of heavy plant.

I did not give the mileage of roads under construction when introducing the Supplementary Estimate. It is 275 miles. The material now being used, in the main, is gravel, which has been found to be cheaper than stone. The cost of these roads is very substantial and, for their purpose, a narrow road is quite sufficient. As a matter of fact, a narrow road is necessary because, apart from the cost of constructing the road, there is also the question of saving the land for planting. These roads may be narrow, taking an average run of them, but there are wide places on the roads, which make them suitable for the purpose for which they are constructed.

In this matter, we look to the costings and use, in the main, the cheapest method. If material can be purchased outside at a cheaper rate than the cost of its production by the workmen on the forest or quarry, we get it from outside. I think that is a practice which would be approved by the House and that if any other practice were suggested, the Department would come under severe criticism, because, at all times, the Department must have regard to the financial and economic aspects of this whole business.

A Deputy raised the question as to whether there was any co-operation with our opposite numbers in Britain, whether the friendly relations that existed formerly were still maintained. I am glad to say that, in fact, there is a joint mission working here and in Britain as to the most suitable strains of pinus contorta, that my Department and the British Forestry Commission are working in this field in the closest harmony, and that information is freely exchanged between their Department and ours.

There is a stand of this species in Kilworth Forest in Cork which, I understand, is one of the best examples of the species in Western Europe and as the seed of this variety give very different results in different areas, the information obtained here has been quite useful to the people on the other side and they, on their part, have been most co-operative with the officials of my Department. Therefore, as far as the experiments carried out on both sides of the Channel are concerned, our Department and theirs get on extremely well and the good relations that formerly existed have gone from strength to strength.

Deputy Everett raised the question of the dismissal of forestry workers in county Wicklow. He made certain allegations in the House as to the reason for which these men are alleged to have been dismissed. All I can say is that this is the first I have heard of the matter and that I shall ask the Deputy to give me particulars and, undoubtedly, the allegations will be investigated by me. This evidently happened a considerable time ago and on the information available to me at the moment, I cannot throw any light on the allegations made by Deputy Everett. I can only assure the Deputy, and Deputy Corish who followed him on the same side, that the allegations will be investigated.

I want to say that, generally, the ordinary rule applies, just as it does in industry outside, that the more experienced workers, who have been there for a long time, are invariably retained rather than people who have come in last. Where men have been found to be successful and to have acquired skill as a result of their work, they are naturally more valuable and, naturally, are kept on. On the question of providing continuity of employment for those engaged in the industry, I am sure the House will realise that it is no pleasure for me or for the Forestry Section to let men go. Part of the reason is the lack of long-term planning in connection with the whole business. I should like Deputies to appreciate that to do this job in a proper way—this is accepted forestry practice outside this country and should be accepted here—we would require a plantable reserve of 75,000 acres to work on our present target. In other words, if the planting of 25,000 acres a year is to be our target, we need at least 75,000 acres in reserve so as to do that job properly and economically, to make the best use of machinery and to provide continuity of employment for the labour force involved.

Until we build up to that stage, a certain amount of laying off in valley periods is inevitable in this business. However, I do hope that, with the increased interest being shown and the increased cooperation we are getting in this field in connection with the intake of land, we shall soon reach the stage when we shall have the prescribed plantable reserve, and that we shall be able to plan our work more efficiently both from the State's point of view and the point of view of those employed in the industry. I thank the House for their cooperation in connection with this Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

I should like to ask the Minister a question which he may not be in a position to answer offhand, but perhaps he would bear it in mind for the main Estimate, in connection with general forest management. I am told by those who profess to know that if suitable rides are made through the forests you can materially increase their shooting amenities by turning them into valuable woodcock shootings. As the Minister knows the woodcock is a migratory bird; therefore, we cannot control their numbers. They come and they go, but I believe by the provision of rides through the forests designed to promote the habituation of woodcock we would add a valuable amenity to the forest. On the other hand, I fully appreciate the Minister might not want to admit sportsmen into the forests but it is a matter the Minister could have examined as to whether there is an additional potential to be derived from that valuable forest attraction if it proves practicable to promote it.

Mr. Moran

I shall certainly bear the Deputy's suggestion in mind. I have, in one sense, encouraged people to use these forestry lands as reserves. However, in view of the danger of fire and other considerations, the question of letting people in to shoot is one that we would want to consider.

Vote put and agreed to.