asked the Minister for Health if he will state in respect of the County Managers' Association (a) when it was formed, (b) in what manner it is constituted, e.g. whether it is incorporated, (c) whether it holds a negotiating licence under the Trade Union Acts, and, if so, when this licence was applied for and issued, and (d) whether it conducted any negotiations with regard to pay, terms and conditions of service of officers or employees prior to the issue to it of a licence.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - County Managers' Association.
13.
I have no responsibility in regard to the association mentioned and I have not precise information on a number of the matters referred to in the question, but the following information which is available to me may suffice for the Deputy's purposes:—
The association has been in existence for many years. It is not incorporated. It does not hold a negotiating licence under the Trade Union Act, 1941 but it is an excepted body for the purposes of Section 6 of that Act by reason of an Order made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce on 25th January, 1960. I understand that it conducted certain negotiations of the type mentioned in the question before that date.
Could the Minister say, in relation to negotiations conducted by this body prior to 25th January, 1960, whether this Association or body was entitled, in his view, to carry on such negotiations, in view of the fact that the Minister has already expressed his opinion to me that a similar association was not entitled to conduct such negotiations without being recognised under the Acts?
I am concerned only with those associations which seek to conduct negotiations with me. This Association does not conduct negotiations with me as a rule, but I am aware that it is an excepted body. It has obeyed the law. It has placed itself under the law of the Republic and I am not concerned about any other facets of its activities than that.
Can the Minister say why, if this association has conducted itself in accordance with the law, it was necessary for it to secure special recognition on 25th January of this year under the Trade Union Acts?
I am not responsible for the activities of this association.
Who is?
Except in one aspect.
Which member of the Government is responsible?
The Tánaiste is always strong on collective responsibility.
I do not want to be discourteous to the Deputy but he is as well aware of this as I am.
Collective responsibility.
Order!
The Deputy is as well aware as I am of what Minister is generally responsible for all local government organisations.
Since the Minister has mentioned what I am aware of, is it not a fact that for quite a number of years the County Managers' Association has, on the direction of the Minister for Health, carried out negotiations in relation to terms and conditions of pay, without any special recognition under the Trade Union Acts?
I am not aware that I gave any direction to the County Managers' Association, or anybody, to carry out negotiations in respect of pay. It may have happened that, for mutual convenience, the County Managers may have met and discussed certain questions with people employed in the health services and Local Government health services, and I have a general knowledge that such discussions have taken place. If the County Managers' Association, having become aware of the fact that it was necessary to be an excepted body under the Trade Union Act of 1941, sought such recognition, I do not see any reason why I should be called upon to pass censure upon those responsible because they were prepared to obey the law.