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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 Apr 1960

Vol. 180 No. 12

Imposition of Duties (Confirmation of Orders) Bill, 1960—Report and Final Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be received for final consideration."

Certain allegations were made in connection with the publication of one of the Orders to be confirmed under this Bill during the Second Reading and the Committee Stage. The principal allegation made was that under the arrangements whereby import licences for the cloth in question are issued against orders placed for Irish-made cloth, the insistence by the sole Irish manufacturing company that orders should be placed only with one agent put that agent in a monopoly position in that all orders had to be channelled through him. I have since made inquiries of the manufacturing company and the company concerned have informed my Department that, in fact, there is no obligation on any trader to place orders through their agents. They are quite willing to accept orders direct and quite a number of orders are placed with the company direct by traders.

I have in fact, as a result of personal inquiry from one of the oldest and biggest Cork traders, in that connection ascertained that that Cork trader places orders direct with the manufacturing company. There have, of course, been instances when the firm refused to accept orders direct where they were not satisfied with the credit standing of the traders concerned, but the same criterion of creditworthiness is applied by the firm to all orders, whether received direct or through the agent.

I should perhaps at this stage explain for the benefit of the House the system which operates whereby duty-free import licences are issued, particularly in the textile trade. Where there is an import duty in operation in relation to a particular textile and in the event that the manufacturing output of that textile does not meet fully the home market or where it is desirable to make available a sufficient variety to the home trader, duty free import licences are issued on a certain ratio.

Let us take, for example, a ratio of one to five. That example does not apply to any specific case. If a trader proves to the Department that he has, in fact, ordered one yard of a particular cloth from a home manufacturer, he is entitled to a duty-free licence to import five yards of foreign cloth. Lest there should be any misunderstanding, I should like to stress that while orders may be passed through the company's agent for Irish cloths, import licences are issued only against confirmation of orders issued by the company direct to the traders concerned.

It was also suggested that the existence of the agent involved an additional and unnecessarily large item of cost for traders buying cloth. The position is that the company's factory is located in a provincial town and if it had not an agent in Dublin, where the bulk of the market for its product is located, it would have to maintain its own separate sales organisation in Dublin. It is not a fact, as was suggested during the debate, that the arrangements whereby import facilities are related to orders placed with the Irish firm render a selling organisation unnecessary. This part of the textile trade, more than some of the sectors in that trade, is one in which design, fashion trends, etc., are of importance and a proper sales organisation, including travellers, is of importance to the customers. The view expressed that a sales organisation is not required is certainly one which would not be endorsed by the customers of the firm.

Complaints have, in fact, been made by traders in the textile business from time to time that a shortcoming of certain industrialists is that they rely too much on protection as a means of selling their goods and do not provide adequate service in this respect for their customers. In the present instance the company concerned gave careful consideration to the question of how best to provide the necessary sales service for their customers. For a period they operated their own sales office in Dublin, but later decided that the most economic method of providing the necessary sales service was to appoint a sole representative in Dublin who had previous experience of the trade concerned and who would provide the necessary accommodation, office staff, travellers, etc.

The reason one agent, rather than a number of agents, was appointed is again a matter of cost. A number of agents would have led to duplication of effort and expenditure with consequential higher prices for the firm's product. It is quite a normal feature in the textile business to operate on a sole agency basis. The company have indicated that they are quite satisfied that the remuneration which the agent receives for his services, which include the provision of office accommodation, office staff and travellers, is moderate having regard to the nature of the services provided and that it is the least costly way in which these services could be obtained.

From what I have said, I think it is clear that there is no basis for the allegation made that the selling arrangements of the firm have created a monopoly. It is a matter for regret that those allegations should have been made, as the only effect has been to create difficulty for the Irish firm which is at present in a state of development and which is giving substantial employment in a provincial area. I might add that the particular cloth that the Deputies had in mind is one in respect of which the import duty was put on in 1958 and it was confirmed in the last imposition of Duties Act, not in the present Bill.

The Minister has the most brazen neck of anybody I have heard. He comes in here and says it is a pity the allegation was made. This allegation was made by the most discreet method possible, and it was the Minister's incompetence which was responsible—if there is anything to be responsible about. When this matter came up on the Second Reading, I did not mention names. I could have mentioned names. I could have mentioned other names as well as the names of factories and the names of persons. I did not choose to deal with it on the matter of personalities. I chose to deal with it on the matter of principle. As soon as the Second Reading finished, I gave the Minister the name. For a week he did nothing. For a week he took no steps whatsoever——

That is not true.

——as he should have done, to come into this House and to arm himself at that stage with the full facts. Instead, he chose to come into this House on the Committee Stage without having got the information that it was his duty, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, to get. If he had not been able to get it at the time, it was his duty not to ask that the Committee Stage of the Bill be ordered for that day. Having incompetently failed to acquaint himself sufficiently of the facts to advise the House, during the course of the debate he proceeded to say exactly the opposite of what he has said to-day. During the debate last week he said there was only one agent and that it was necessary to buy through him. Now he comes in here and reverses what he said last week.

Did I say it was necessary?

I think the Minisster did.

Have a bit of a think now.

Regardless of whether the Minister did or did not, it was his duty to have himself adequately and properly informed before he put this Bill down for Committee Stage. He neglected to fulfil his duty. He has now come in and made a statement on certain facts which I shall have an opportunity of verifying between now and to-morrow. I do not quarrel with him on that, but I do quarrel with him on his brazen audacity in not getting informed for the Committee Stage. It is a disrespect, not to me, but to the House that he failed to get that information and then complains that other people were forced by lack of candour, lack of information, to endeavour to extract information in public that should be extracted in another way.

The Minister does not know how lucky he was that in dealing with people in Opposition who knew certain facts, as Deputy Dillon and I knew them, we kept our arguments on principle, to a much greater extent than Fianna Fáil, had they been on this side of the House, would have done. Were they on this side of the House, the welkin would have been made to ring about the things we knew.

I should like to refute entirely the allegation of lack of candour. I have always thought that Deputy Sweetman in his approach to matters in this House was brazen but straight. I would still like to have that opinion of him and that is not a reflection on him. As far as the allegations made against this firm are concerned, I hope he will accept now that they have been adequately answered. As far as I am concerned, I am satisfied that nothing improper has been done, or is being done, by this firm, and I should like an assurance, at least from the Deputies opposite, that my word is accepted.

We shall deal with it on the Fifth Stage when we have an opportunity to check on why the Minister changed as between last week and this week.

Question put and agreed to.

Would the Minister not agree to to-morrow?

Last week, I could have resorted to a technicality of procedure that perhaps would have rendered the complaints made by the Deputies out of order.

I should explain that the particular cloth the Deputy has in mind was the subject of a duty imposed in 1958 which was confirmed in the Imposition of Duties (Confirmation of Orders) Act of last year. That is the position and I do not want to be difficult. I still do not want to avail of a technicality.

There appears to be a misunderstanding here.

Order No. 2 is the one I mentioned.

That cloth is made by firms other than the firm the Deputy has in mind—the cloth which is the subject matter of Order No. 2. It is the particular cloth of which the Deputy was complaining.

I thought it was No. 2.

There appears to be some misunderstanding on the issue joined. I understood the Minister to say last week that it was so, that there was an exclusive agency for the sale of the cloth and it was through that agent that the cloth had to be bought. The Minister says to-day that anybody who wants to buy the cloth can buy it direct from the factory. I have not got the Official Report before me but I have no doubt, if the Minister says he said that last week, he believes he said it. However, I should like the opportunity of checking the proceedings because I certainly believed that position did not exist, and that persons who had to buy this domestic cloth in order to qualify for a duty-free licence, were required to buy it through a named agent, and I thought that introduced an impropriety in consideration of the regulations made by the Minister under the Imposition of Duties Act. I think it would be better, from every point of view, if we could postpone the Fifth Stage until to-morrow, when I believe, without protracted debate or unseemly delay, the Minister will be facilitated to dispose of the legislation.

Deputy Dillon will be more familiar with procedure than I am. I understood that this being a money Bill, it must go to the Seanad within seven days of its passage through this House. Whether the intervening period of holidays will affect that, I do not know, but I accept the Deputy's assurance in that respect.

I cannot give the Minister an assurance in that respect.

The Minister is quite right with regard to that point of procedure but he himself said he did not want this Bill until Christmas. Is that not what he said?

That was in the heat of debate.

Is it a matter of urgency?

If the issue is now whether I stated last week that orders had to be placed through one agent is correct or not, I am quite prepared to say on the information available to me last week, I thought orders for the product of the Irish factory had to be placed through one agent.

The Minister was mistaken?

I accept I did say that but I want to deny the allegation if it was specifically made that quantities covered by import licences had to be purchased through that agent.

The allegation was that the only way one could buy Irish cloth was through an agent and that once you put an order through the agent, it was proper for the firm to give a certificate to the purchaser that he got a certain amount and he could then apply for an import licence. Then, if he got that certificate, he had to go through the agent to purchase his supplies from outside. Do I understand the Minister to say that he, I, and Deputy Sweetman were all agreed in that wrong belief?

That is right.

Then I do not understand why he rebukes us.

I did not quite catch that. Would the Deputy repeat it?

The Minister agrees with us that we, all three of us, believed last week that all orders for the domestic cloth had to be passed through an agent?

That is right.

Then I do not know why the Minister should rebuke us for having fallen into the same error as he himself says he was in. The Minister now says he is satisfied that was never so and that it is not now so. I am not so satisfied. It may be they have reformed themselves recently but I am not so satisfied it never was the case. Is the Minister satisfied that it never was the case?

It never was the case.

The Minister is satisfied?

Yes, I am. In the case of the sole agent, he is entitled to a certain commission on orders that may be placed with the company itself.

That is all I want to know.

Yes. The orders may be placed direct with the factory.

The only complaint made from here is this: if there was a sole agent through whom all orders had to pass, we regard that as an abuse. If the firm said: "We have only one agent and if you want to order through an agent, you must order through him, but, if you prefer to order direct, you are quite free to do so", then I do not think any serious abuse existed. My information is that that option at one time did not exist. I have no doubt it exists now because the publicity has produced the desired result.

I am not suggesting that the Minister is concealing something from us; I am suggesting that it is possible that something is being concealed from the Minister. I believe an abuse did exist. I believe that if this discussion has served to terminate that abuse, a useful purpose has been served and I think we have a reasonable guarantee that if this abuse has had to be terminated as a result of this discussion in Dáil Éireann, its like will not be attempted by anybody else. But, I suggest to the Minister that he should keep his eyes peeled and inquire from some other of his friends in the trade —in the trade—and he may find that the reassurance he has received—no doubt in good faith—from his own advisers may not be as exhaustive as it should be.

It is extremely difficult for the Minister's Department to uncover abuses of this kind because whose interest is it, if they are in the trade and looking for a licence from the trade, to come forward and make a complaint of this character? Very often, they have only to buy one yard of domestic cloth in order to qualify for imports of five yards. It is very often that for general peace and comfort, they suffer in silence rather than kick up a row and it may be difficult for the Minister in his official capacity to get the kind of information he requires; it may be doubly difficult for his technical advisers to get it. I suggest to him that he make further and better inquiries in the trade and he may find that abuse which is now no longer operating did operate at one stage and will see to it that it will not be allowed to operate in future.

I am assured that no such abuse ever existed.

It may be slightly out of order, but, for the record, may I put in juxtaposition with the speech the Minister made a few minutes ago what he said at column 1216 the last day?

In one case, the manufacturer places the orders through one firm, as it were, and in the other case, the manufacturers receive the orders in their own factories.

That was an hypothesis, was it not?

I think not. The Minister went on to say:

But there are two types of fabrics concerned. In the one case only the firm which sells its output through an agent makes the one type and in the case of the other type of fabric all three make it.

The Official Report is as follows:

Mr. Sweetman: But there is one type which the agent-firm alone makes?

Mr. J. Lynch: That is right. I have just said that.

Then we go on to column 1221:

Mr. J. Lynch: ...I am accepting entirely—it has been confirmed by my own inquiries—that the complaint made by Deputy Sweetman last week was true,...

Then the Minister really has the nerve to come in and read us a sermon. I do not mind the Minister finding that he was wrong and that I was wrong. That is quite within the bounds of possibility. But, I am damned if I will accept a sermon from the Minister when he has all the resources of his Department available to make certain that he is right and we in Opposition necessarily have to depend on such rather tenuous inquiries as, inevitably, in Opposition, one is able to make.

I may also suggest to the Minister that I think he will remember that I asked him when I saw him after the Second Reading to let me know if persons who wanted to buy the fabric I mentioned to him could buy it from anyone except from one named agent. The people who approached me would be very glad to know of the names. Might I suggest that if, before coming in and sermonising us, the Minister had examined his own conscience to see if he had got done what he was asked to do discreetly before the order for Committee Stage, it would have been a great deal wiser?

The allegations came from outside sources. Those are the allegations came through the The allegations came through the Deputy from an outside source, from people who have no love for the particular firm.

No; I do not think so. They came from people who wanted to buy but who did not like the method by which they thought— I accept what the Minister says—they were obliged to go to one firm.

May I say finally that I am advised that they can go——

That they can go to the manufacturer?

——to the manufacturer direct and that has always been the case?

Certainly, they did not realise that. The Minister can take that as certain. They will now know as a result of this discussion that they can and anybody who will ever try to set up a method like that will know that it will be frowned on.

May I take it that the House agrees to the Fifth Stage being taken now?

Yes.

Agreed to take Fifth Stage now.

Question, "That the Bill do now pass", put and agreed to.

This is a Money Bill within the meaning of Article 22 of the constitution.

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