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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 May 1960

Vol. 181 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 52—Army Pensions (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion :
That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.—(Deputy MacEoin.)

I want to bring specially to the notice of the Minister a case in my constituency of a Connaught Ranger who, unfortunately, got into a small bit of trouble some years ago. The offence was trivial; it was not anything criminal. His pension, of course, was taken from him. I know that the Minister has not the power himself, but the House has the power to restore that pension.

It is not an easy matter to see in trouble a man who 40 years ago laid down arms in India. It took great men to do it. To lay down arms in India took as good men as it took to take up arms in this country. After the burning suns of India and the rigours of imprisonment it was only natural that mental illness should affect the unfortunate person concerned. In the first years of the war he found himself in a concentration camp in France.

If Deputy MacEoin now wishes to resume his speech—he reported progress last night—I shall give way.

If the Deputy cares to finish, he might let me in then.

I have no objection to Deputy MacEoin being allowed to resume his speech now.

It is against practice but we shall let it go.

What matter? Is he not deserving?

I am very sorry. When I moved to report progress last evening, I was dealing with the pensions of the Defence Forces as such and have not anything to add on that matter.

It is true that those retiring on pension from the rank and file of the Defence Forces are finding the going very hard. As I said yesterday evening, there is no member of this House who has not been approached in one way or another to try to assist them in finding some other employment to enable them to augment their small pensions. Therefore, the Minister and the Government should seriously consider increasing their pensions and should make some further provision for them.

To go back to the other pensions of those whom I might describe as my old comrades and colleagues of days gone by, amongst those people, as I said, Father Time is reaping a heavy harvest and their numbers are decreasing every year. In the Estimate for this year, one can see that the numbers have been considerably reduced. In other words, the Minister and the Department are basing upon the number of deaths which occurred in the past their estimate of the number that will occur this year. Every year, the Department, the Minister and the Government have underestimated the number who pass on. Therefore, I feel that two things are required: some provision to increase their pensions in a substantial way and, on reaching the age of 70, a sympathetic examination of the means test on the special allowances.

We get the extraordinary situation where a person with a medal, or a certificate of service, gets the old age pension fairly easily but when the same pensions officer comes to examine the means of an applicant for a special allowance—where he gets this income from or how he calculates it, I do not know—it appears that something is radically wrong with the whole system.

I know the Medical Pensions Board are sympathetic but they are tied up by regulations. Total disability or total incapacity is very difficult to define. I am aware of persons who have been refused a special allowance on these grounds who, I know well, are totally incapable of earning their livelihood and who, on examination, appeared to be capable of self-support.

In the estimation of the means of an applicant who is resident with somebody else and the accommodation is given gratuitously by the other person—perhaps a brother-in-law, a father-in-law or some such relative— the calculation includes the value of so much a week income, whereas, on the other hand, there is a hardship on the other person——

Not if there is a hardship on the person. There is a provision that, if it is a hardship on the person providing accommodation, it is not taken into account.

In every case I know where the calculation has been so made, it was a hardship and is a hardship.

Those cases can always be re-examined or reviewed.

Very good. Up to the present it has not been so easy to get it done.

It is only lately that that has been the position.

I am glad to know that, and I am sure many Deputies are glad to know that these cases can be re-examined. If these few remarks of mine did no other good than to get that fact established, they will have been of some help.

I want now to ask the Minister how the position relating to the widows of people who were on disability pension is proceeding. Is the Act in operation, and have the people who think the Act applies to them made application to the Minister? I understood there would be an examination of the files and that it would not be necessary for the widow to apply but cases have been brought to my notice recently in which it would appear that the people concerned have not so far received any word from the Department. I advised them to apply directly to the Minister, supplying the name of the deceased and, if they had any of his papers, to cite the reference number, or return them to the Department. In that way, the name of the person could be ascertained and the situation fully established.

As I say, the reduction this year is, in one sense, smaller than it was in other years. Under the heading "Wounds and Disability Pensions and Gratuities", there is a reduction of £6,600. Under the heading "Special Allowances", there is an increase of £2,200, and under the heading "Military Service Pensions" there is a decrease of £11,000. I am aware, of course, that when a person who has a medal or a military service certificate, reaches the age of 70, the disability examination does not apply and he is automatically entitled to the special allowance if his means allow it. That is a very wise provision and it will, of course, for a short time, increase the charge under that heading. I appeal to the Minister and to the Department to be as generous as they possibly can be in that regard.

There is one final matter I wish to raise in connection with the question that has arisen about the service in the Army of the person who has a military service certificate or a medal with bar. The Minister has taken some steps to deal with that in another way, but it has now arisen in relation to the Garda Síochána and the Minister for Justice has decided to extend the service of officers, N.C.O.s and men of the Garda Síochána who have a medal with bar. Everyone knows that the definition was that a person had a military service certificate. During my term of office for all purposes, a person with a medal was regarded as having a medal, and whether with or without bar made no difference.

A number of officers and men of the Garda Síochána did not apply for a service certificate on the ground that they were in good employment and were amply compensated by the State. They are now looking for it but because the Minister has wound up the Military Service Pensions Board, it is not possible for them to get the military service certificate that would entitle them to the medal with bar. That creates a very grave hardship.

I suggest the Minister should declare that there is no difference in the medal —that a medal with or without a bar shows service and membership of the Forces. He should appeal to his colleague, the Minister for Justice, not to enforce that regulation in that way but to accept from the Minister for Defence a certificate that the medal has been duly awarded. If the medal has been duly awarded, it should meet the requirements of the Minister for Justice. I appeal to him to do that in the interests of fair play to all concerned.

It would appear that in 1957 or the beginning of 1958 the Minister informed the Old I.R.A. Association that if the local officers were satisfied there was a case of hardship or a case where a person was entitled to a certificate of service and did not get it the matter would be looked into. The Minister said that if they investigated the case and sent their report to the Mansion House Committee, as it is known, and then, if the Mansion House Committee investigated the case and found that the person was entitled to a certificate of service, he would see that it was granted.

I have been approached in regard to a particular matter and the persons concerned want to know what has happened. I think with the best intentions in the world, it was not possible for the Minister, because of the abolition of the Board, to have the matter reinvestigated. I presume that when he gave that undertaking, if he gave it— I assume that what they say is right and that he did give it—it was while the Pensions Board was in operation and that when it ceased and they had not dealt with the cases that should have been dealt with, he was no longer able to fulfil his promise.

I should like the Minister to clarify the matter because there is a good deal of discontent about it. I have even been charged that I could have helped to see to it that the Minister's promise was fulfilled. For the life of me, I cannot see what I or anybody else could do about it. I should be glad if the Minister would tell us the circumstances in which he gave that undertaking and why it is no longer possible for him to give effect to it. I want to thank my colleague on the other side of the House for permitting me to say these few words and also the Ceann Comhairle for permitting me to take part in the debate.

To resume at the point at which I broke off, this man, a former member of the Connaught Rangers, found himself in a concerntration camp in France. He was allowed to write to me to certify that he had been engaged in the struggle for independence. His sentence was commuted to penal servitude for life. It was the second time he had been under sentence of death.

I mention these matters so that the Minister and the House will appreciate what condition this man was in mentally when at last he was discovered some place in Russia and was subsequently extradited. He committed some trivial offence and as a result his pension was taken from him. I am sure that if the district justice had known the full circumstances of this unfortunate man, he would, in his wisdom, have imposed a shorter sentence.

If this man had been represented by a solicitor or had had legal aid, it would have been pointed out on his behalf that he was in receipt of a military service pension and that a sentence longer than three months would mean the withdrawal of that pension. Unfortunately, he was not legally represented. Nobody knew anything about his case until he had served the sentence and then apparently it was too late to make representations.

I know the Minister is a humane man. I appeal to him to bring the matter of this unfortunate man before the Government with a view to the restoration of his pension. He is now in the winter of his life. His poor health can be imagined. I beg that the case of this man who gave such loyal service to the country and whose actions were deserving of every possible good that we could give him will receive sympathetic consideration. I trust the Minister will see his way to have inquiries made.

I am certain, as I say, that if the district justice had known the position he would not have given him the extra few weeks that involve such hardship for him now. He has been without a pension for many years. His financial and physical conditions are now much worse. He has been punished very severely for his offence. I feel confident the Minister will restore his pension and help him to tide over the most difficult period of his life.

Deputy MacEoin referred to the means test in respect of special allowances. It is the one means test I never liked. I ask the Minister to have it re-examined in relation to the claim of a pensioner's wife for the old age pension. It is hardly fair. The State gives a pension at 70 years of age to the old woman to help her to exist. I fail to see why that pension should be assessed as means when her husband claims a special allowance. It would be well if the Minister would act soon as there are bound to be changes in the near future—on 1st January next. It would be well if the Minister would forgo that part of the means test in the interim.

I have long experience and I find that, while many of the social welfare officers are reasonably fair, some are carried away. There appears to be some mystery as to how they decide on an estimate of means. I am told that some of them estimate means of £104 against people and others estimate means of £130. Married and single applicants are treated thus. Such social welfare officers should have their heads examined.

If I give particulars of specific cases to the Minister, I trust he will ascertain if it is true that the social welfare officer assessed means to the extent we are told he did because, as a result, the applicant is debarred from a special allowance. In one or two cases I know of, the social welfare officer should have his head examined. There is a sum of £2 12s. for free lodging. I do not think free lodging should be associated with bona fide Old I.R.A. I appeal to the Minister not to refuse a military service pension to a genuine member of the Old I.R.A. I have no sympathy whatsoever for men who pretend they were in the Irish Forces. I am jolly sure some of them were not. Some of them hung their stockings up for Daddy Christmas. We know that others were refused.

I would ask the Minister to be very careful before he refuses a military service medal in respect of a genuine old I.R.A. man. I know very well that spite and jealousy have played no small part in the recommendations, whether in respect of a military service pension or a military service medal. Spite played a great part—personal spite more perhaps than even political spite. Few elements of political spite are to be found but we know that such is not the case in regard to personal spite. I would ask the Minister to ensure that if an old I.R.A. man loses his medal or was refused a medal, he will have the right to appeal to some body set up by the Minister before whom evidence can be heard. Let the green-eyed monsters who are responsible for preventing a man getting a medal to which he is fully entitled come out into the open on oath and stand over what they did secretly.

We hear again that a person did not qualify because of the fact that he was not active in the three months before the Truce. The period of three months before the Truce is a very difficult period to assess. I can assure the House that the activities in this period were not as great as people think nor was it easy to be active. Even if the person in question had to transfer his place of residence or work to some other area for safety purposes, as long as he remained a member of the I.R.A. he is fully entitled to a military service pension.

We have a number of certifying officers, some of whom I know personally. They could not think of what happened last week, not to speak of what happened 40 or more years ago. I have personal experience of that. A minute inquiry should be made, and, if necessary, the Minister should appoint a few members of his staff to hear orally the evidence for or against in cases where certain people are refused. It is bad enough—indeed it is very bad—that a man cannot wear a medal to which he is entitled but it is much worse that a man who was a bona fide member of the I.R.A. is refused a medal. In other words, you are telling him that he was not in the I.R.A. at all.

I want to deal with the matter of special allowances, especially in the case of a man who was turned down on the grounds of means. The Minister should give that man the right to appeal. I do not refer to medical grounds because if the medical board turns him down, that is good enough for me. I do not doubt the board in any way; I am sure they are impartial. If they find that a person is incapacitated, they will have no hesitation in saying so, but in regard to means, some of the estimates are purely imaginary and I think the person should have the right of appeal.

There are members of the Garda and the Army, too, who were in the pre-Truce I.R.A. who unfortunately did not make their case sufficiently well to get a military service pension. I know that military service certificates were awarded under the Military Service Pensions Acts of 1924 and 1934. Those people were entitled to pensions. It is fair that persons not in possession of certificates under the Military Service Pensions Act who satisfy the Minister that their service was such as to merit the award of a pension, had they made application under the Acts, should be awarded pensions. The trouble is that an application now is too late. That is a hardship on many of these. I take it that the Minister will arrange that in such cases he will entertain applications from them, in view of the statement of the Minister for Justice some weeks ago. Up to now, only a member of the Garda or Army had a bar to their military service medal but it looks as if that factor is much more important now.

I think the Minister should give special consideration to men who are 100 per cent. disabled. Nobody is more deserving of sympathy than those unfortunate men. There are not many of them left now. Unfortunately their number is getting smaller. They had their glorious hour. The days of many of those old soldiers who helped to obtain freedom for this country are practically gone. I would ask the Minister to consider favourably the question of giving a higher pension to those men who are 100 per cent. disabled. They are not able to do anything now as they are too old.

Freedom costs very little. There are other countries in which freedom costs countless millions but it cost us very little in this country and if we hand over to posterity a little liability, we make no apology for it because we hand over to them something which is priceless, something which money could not buy and something which future generations, when they come to realise fully what it means, will appreciate.

I do not see any good reason why the widows of men in receipt of pensions under the 1937 Act are not granted further facilities. Every year the Minister or his predecessors made some improvement and I think that little improvement is well deserved. It is long overdue. The widow of a 1937 pensioner ought to be as near and dear to the State as a pensioner under the Acts of 1923, 1927, 1932 or any other Act of Parliament.

I congratulate the Minister and I thank him for the courtesy with which he has always received deputations or members of this House when making a case for a bona fide old I.R.A. man.

With regard to dependants' allowances, the case is very difficult to prove. It is very difficult for people whose brothers were killed 40 years ago or perhaps more to prove dependence. They are old themselves and probably some of them are not too enlightened on legal matters. There are not many left now. I think very few have been turned down and I would ask the Minister to reconsider favourably the question of making it easier for some of these dependants to get the pension. That will give them the same comfort at least as they would have had if their brothers had not given their lives for this country. I know that as far as the Minister is concerned we are knocking on an open door in our desire to promote the welfare of those soldiers of the Republic.

This Estimate interests me because I am well acquainted with people affected by it, as an old Fianna member who has associated with old I.R.A. members. First of all, I should like to deal with this question of the medal. In my opinion the Minister should issue some kind of certificate, something that would show that the person had service. There could be a distinction as between the person with active service and others but there should be some kind of a certificate. It is not enough to have a medal because as time goes on it will be like the old soldiers in the American Civil War. We shall become fewer and more privileged, hail-fellow-well-met with everybody and going around on sticks. There will, however, be a few bogus cases and it will be so long since the time the medal was granted and since the evidence was there to show that a person was entitled to a medal, that there will be bogus people who will have medals. Nobody will be able to say that these people are "phonies." The only thing to prove a person is genuine would be a certificate.

I understand that Deputy MacEoin had in mind some kind of commission to investigate those in possession of medals because it is alleged that some people have medals to which they are not entitled. That is true. There may not be many cases but even so the position should be rectified. People's memories fail them and it is quite a simple thing for a man to say: "Oh, yes, I remember this fellow; he was in my Company". But he could have been in the Company six months before the Truce or six months after the Truce and he might not be able to place that person so well. It is always possible for someone to be backed up by a friend and the Company officer may accept that assurance.

I remember well that in 1918—I mentioned this before—there was no end to the people in the Fianna. I was only a youngster at the time and there were 80 to 90 people on parade but gradually the parade became smaller as times became more dangerous. I remember our meeting in a loft in Upper Henrietta Street; there were never more than a dozen there for the six months or so before the Truce. Then gradually the crowd came back during the Truce and there were about 100 there again. I suppose most Companies were something like that in both the I.R.A. and the Fianna. The question is how can a man remember whether another man was a member earlier or not or whether he was there when times were becoming dangerous.

One person said that it was enough that a man was a member even if he had not been seen on parade for some time, but the question arises: why was he not on parade? It was not a question of being on the books; you were there to serve. I had a little experience in the Civil War when I was handed a certain small command by a certain gentleman. He handed me the baby but he could well say that he fought. So he did, but he disappeared and was arrested nice and peacefully six months later, having taken no part in the proceedings in the interim. It is important that men should prove they were there to serve if called upon. If they had all disappeared there would have been no Army if it was required.

For example, at the time of the attack on the Custom House there were many men lost to us and if there had not been other men standing by to take their place it would have been unfortunate. It was important that the men were on parade. I should like to emphasise that. At that time, certainly in activities like the attack on the Custom House it was dangerous, in Dublin anyway, for a large number of men to take part in an engagement. It was safer to have only three or four, or a half a dozen of them, and usually the same half dozen were brought out to do a job. If one of them was arrested another man was taken in out of the crowd. It did not mean that the others were "funking" because, as long as they were there on parade, they were there to serve.

Those people should get certificates. It is not too late to show that they were serving members of the I.R.A. during that period. There should be something to distinguish them from those who actually have service medals for action. As time goes on there will be fewer of these people and you will have a number of "phonies ". We want to avoid that. In my opinion those who served are getting a raw deal. If you took part in none of the activities you did not get a pension. I never advocated pensions but I did say that people should get a gratuity just like those in the F.C.A. Those who turn up in the F.C.A. on parade in peace time get a gratuity. In the "Tan" war you could have turned up for two or three years, two or three times a week, instead of looking after yourself learning the Irish language in order to get a good job later. You were giving your time and putting yourself in danger of being arrested and shot as a prisoner, as did happen in some cases.

Many of those people did minor jobs if they were asked to do them. They served just as much as the other fellows. In the countryside large numbers of men could operate but in Dublin, as I say, a crowd immediately attracted attention. I remember a group of nine who had gathered to do a certain job and some woman in the local post office saw them and rang up the police and they were all arrested. These people were good soldiers and should get some sort of recompense or some sort of gratuity but, to start with, there should be some sort of certificate to back up the medal. The medal means nothing. As I said, as we get fewer in numbers there will be more "phonies" and it is important that any privileges which are going should be given to the right people.

I had almost forgotten one point which I intended to mention on the Estimate for Defence. In my opinion those Old I.R.A. men should be entitled to some free hospital treatment in Army hospitals. They ought to have some privilege of that type for the service they gave. Some of them got nothing but a medal worth 5/-. In their old age those men should get free hospital service because many of them may not be entitled to the blue card; they may be border-line cases like many in the community, and indeed, there is much dissatisfaction about this blue card.

I notice in the accounts that hospital treatment has decreased from £2,000 to £1,000. In fact, there is a general decrease of over £23,000 in the accounts this year and last year, and every year from this on there will be a further decrease. These men are passing on and it is obvious that their numbers will decrease. In fact, the Minister can afford to be a little generous in future. I think the important thing is a certificate to justify having the medal. That would do away with any inquiries as to whether a man had a right to a medal or not because further information would be given to the Minister and his Department so that they could be satisfied on the merits of the case even though the man already had a medal. In that way, the inquiry which Deputy MacEoin had in mind would come about.

Mention was made of the Connaught Rangers. I attended a commemoration of the Connaught Rangers in Glasnevin last year and I was touched by the speech of the Chairman of the Committee who spoke of those who had been executed and who had died abroad. I think it is not too much to ask the Minister to do something about having the remains of those people brought back to this country. That was the proposal made by the Chairman at the commemoration and I think the Minister should keep it in mind.

My most important point is the certificate to support the possession of a medal so that there will be no "phonies" in future and I would also ask that the matter of having the bodies of Connaught Rangers restored to this country be considered.

It was rather refreshing to hear Deputy Davern talking about freedom and the price we paid for it. It would have been great if they had thought in that way many years ago—that freedom was worth while having.

Once again I refer to the Connaught Rangers. I have done so on several occasions already and I was glad to hear two other Deputies raise the matter to-day. Deputy Sherwin referred to some who were executed. Others died in jail at the hands of the British but we cannot lift our heads any higher than the British because we allowed several of these men to die in the workhouses. I would urge the Minister once more to issue some form of recognition to the survivors or to the families of survivors of those who played their part in foreign fields. I know that the official attitude will be against issuing a medal on the grounds that it might be the prelude to a demand for a pension. That would be a rather poor attitude to adopt and I appeal to the Minister even at this late stage to give some recognition to those survivors or their relatives. I would like him to say, when replying, if he is inclined to do this. Then we might continue to press the matter.

Does the Deputy mean people who did not qualify for pensions?

Is eol duinn go léir go mba mhaith leis an Aire aon rud is féidir leis, taobh istig den dlí agus na rialacháin, a dhéanamh ar son na ndaoine a throid chun saoirse na tíre d'fháil. Tá fhios againn go bhfuil a chroí leo, agus is ceart go mbeadh, toisc an bhaint atá aige le daoine a throid ar son chuis na hÉireann. Le déanaí cuireadh isteach chuige ó Chumann na Sean-Óglach i gCorcaigh litir ag iarraidh air rud speisialta a dhéanamh ar son na ndaoine atá ann fós chun a saol a dhéanamh níos éadroime.

We all know and understand that the Minister is very favourably disposed towards the survivors of the fight for independence. His heart is with them and he will do everything possible within the law and the regulations to make their lot easier in the years when their health is failing and when, perhaps, some of them still have family obligations and when the world is pressing pretty severely on them.

I support the appeals made here to-day for those who have got special allowances under the award of service medals because in many cases these were border-line cases and there was only very little—perhaps the death of an officer intimately connected with their activities or the fact that they were not able to make the best possible case before the Board—to prevent them from getting pensions over the years. Consequently, I think everything possible should be done for them and they should be dealt with as favourably as possible.

Submissions were made to the Minister lately by the Old I.R.A. organisation in Cork setting out in detail three or four specific points they wanted him to consider. I do not want to occupy the time of the Dáil now because the Minister will be able to get these points examined departmentally and see if he can go any distance towards meeting the reasonable requests set out. The numbers now left are very small and are diminishing year after year. In these circumstances the regulations should not be too rigidly applied.

Deputy MacEoin mentioned the case of some of these people who are being maintained not by relatives but by old friends or comrades who have no family obligations to them. To my mind, it is unfair to consider hardship at all in some of these cases. I know a few instances of that kind where, out of kindness of heart and appreciation of what they had done in the past, friends took these survivors in when they could no longer give a full week's work, although they may be able to do some odd jobs— not very much. We should treat with every consideration those who are left. I feel there is no Minister who could hold the high office the present Minister holds who would treat more sympathetically any reasonable cases submitted to him and I ask him to give special consideration to cases submitted for reconsideration.

Ba mhaith liom mo ghlór a chur le glór na dTeachtaí ar gach aon taobh den Tigh seo a bhí ag éileamh ar an Aire oiread agus is féidir a dhéanamh faoin mBille seo do na Sean-Óglaigh. Tá líon na Sean-Óglach ag dul i laghad in aghaidh an lae. Tá siad ag imeacht uainn amhail duilleoga na gcrann sa bhFómhar agus ní rófhada go mbeidh a bhformhór imithe ar shlí na fírinne.

Is fada atáimid ag plé an Bhille seo anso inniú. Ní dóichí rud ná go mbeidh cuid eile acu imithe i láthair Dé sula rithfear é, agus tá baol ann go ndéanfar dearmad orthu nuair a bheidh siad faoin bhfód.

Iarraim ar an Aire ardú breise a thabhairt do gach duine a bhfuil pinsean aige i dtreo is go bhféadfaidh sé deireadh a shaoil a chaitheamh go compordach. Iarraim air freisin bonn a thabhairt do gach óglach ag a bhfuil cruthú cuíosach réasúnta go bhfuil sé ina theideal. Cuimhnímís cé nach raibh cuid acu sna buíonta reatha ar fud na tíre go rabhadar ar fionraí agus ar faire nuair a bhí lucht an bhuíon reatha ar buanaíocht i dtithe a muintire agus i dtithe na gcomharsan. De réir mar a thuigim an scéal, níl siad i dteideal liúntas speisialta go dtí go mbronnfar an bonn orthu.

Iarraim ar an Aire freisin treoir dá réir sin a thabhairt, más cumas dó a leithéid a thabhairt, dóibh siúd a bhíonn ag ríomh ghustal na bhfear atá i dtreis agam. Má dhéanann amhlaidh tuillfidh sé bail agus buíochas na bhfear a sheas sa Bhearnain Baoil in am an ghátair, agus táim cinnte nach gcuirfidh rud den tsaghas seo isteach rómhór ar Chiste an Stáit.

Dhein an Teachta Mac Cárthaigh tagairt do litir a fuaireas le déanaí ó Chumann na Sean-Óglach i gCorcaigh. Ní bhfuair mé an litir ach le gairid agus cé go bhfuilim ag féachaint isteach sa scéal, tuigfidh an Teachta go bhfuil tairiscintí nua ann a dteastódh mórán airgid chun iad a chur i gcrích.

Ba mhaith liomsa mo dhícheall a dhéanamh chun breis airgid a chur ar fáil do Shean-Óglaigh na hÉireann, ach tá deacrachtaí sa tslí. D'iarr an Teachta Ó Ceallaigh orm rud beag breise a thabhairt do na Sean-Óglaigh.

Ar ndó, tugadh ardú phinsin anuraidh dóibh agus beidh ardú ann arís i mbliana. Tá a fhios agam nach ndéanfaidh an rud seo aon deifríocht don duine nach bhfuil aige ach pinsean beag ach sin é an méid is féidir a dhéanamh, faoi láthair ach go háirithe.

Rinneadh tagairt freisin don deacracht atá ann uaireanta a chruthú go bhfuil duine i dteideal bonn a fháil. Ag éirí níos deacra a bheidh an scéal amach anseo. Ní fheicim aon slí as. Caithfear cruthú a fháil. Ní thig liomsa, i mo shuí anseo i mBaile Átha Cliath, a dhéanamh amach cé acu bhí duine ina Shean-Óglach nó nach raibh. Ní féidir le héinne é sin a insint dom ach na hOifigigh atá i mbun aonad na Sean-Óglach a ndeireann an fear go raibh sé páirteach ann. Más rud é nach bhfuil cuimhneamh ag na hOifigigh sin air, ní thig liomsa aon rud a dhéanamh mar gheall air.

Tá na daoine seo ag fáil bháis agus mar sin de agus beidh sé níos deacra amach anseo na cásanna seo a chruthú. Níl de chomhairle agam i dtaobh na ndaoine seo ach a n-iarratais a chur isteach chomh luath agus is féidir é. Ní fheicimse aon slí eile chun cruthú a fháil ach cloí leis an gcóras atá ann faoi láthair, is é sin, iarraidh ar na hoifigigh a rá cé acu a bhí duine sna Sean-Óglaigh nó nach raibh.

Deputy MacEoin referred to Defence Force pensions and to the fact that these pensions in many cases are not adequate to maintain the recipients in a reasonable standard of living. N.C.O.s and private soldiers find it necessary, therefore, to seek employment in order to achieve a reasonably decent standard of living when they retire on pension. I am well aware that that is so. I realise that quite a number of retired soldiers, particularly those who have families depending on them, find it necessary to obtain employment outside.

Since I became Minister, I have arranged that these men will be given a period of pre-discharge leave, during which they are paid at the same rate as if they were still serving in the Army, in order to enable them to find employment without suffering in the interim a considerable reduction in their standard of living. The majority of these men are well fit to work when they leave the Army, particularly those who retire after 21 years' service. Such a man is still an active man. He has the advantage of a very valuable training in the Army and he still has many more years during which he can do useful work.

I do not think there is any need for me to recommend such people for employment. Employers generally appreciate that the ex-soldier is likely to prove a good investment from an employment point of view. It would, no doubt, be very desirable if pensions generally could be brought up to a sufficiently high level to eliminate the necessity of these people having to look for work. It is, however, a general principle that pensions must be related to pay. I do not wish it to be understood that I am quite satisfied with the level of the pensions awarded to N.C.O.s and private soldiers. I should like to improve these, but, as I explained on previous occasions, the question of raising the level of pensions is bound up with financial considerations which are not entirely under my control.

Of course the pensions of officers have always been related to their pay and that is the position still. In regard to N.C.O.s and men, in 1947, the system of pensions was changed and married pensions and additional pensions for service in excess of 21 years were introduced for the first time then. The trouble was that at that time the basic pension was not increased as much as I feel, and Deputy MacEoin feels, it might have been, and that has carried on ever since. Deputy MacEoin and I have found it impossible to do anything about it so far but I have not given up hope of being able to improve that position eventually.

A number of Deputies spoke about special allowances and, in particular, about the means test. Any means test is always unsatisfactory to the people to whom it is applied but the whole idea of special allowances is bound up with a means test. There have been some fairly worthwhile relaxations of the means test in the past year or two and, as Deputies know, the Minister for Finance, in his Budget Statement this year, did say that he was setting aside a sum of £30,000 to be allocated, in a manner to be decided between himself and myself, to special allowance holders. One way of allocating that would be by some further relaxations of the means test.

A number of suggestions as to what should be done in that respect were made by different Deputies here and it is somewhat along those lines that my own mind is running. Free maintenance and other such reliefs are what I have in mind. However, I did interject while Deputy MacEoin was speaking in regard to this question of maintenance being provided by other people for the special allowance holder that where it can be shown that the provision of such maintenance is a hardship on the person providing it, there is provision for its being ignored.

Another point I should like to make clear to Deputies is that these decisions in relation to special allowances can always be reviewed, the assessment of the means and the decision of the Pensions Board as to whether a person is or is not incapacitated to the extent of being unable to provide himself with a living. These things can always be reinvestigated and even when the due award of a medal has been refused, if the person concerned or any Deputy with whom he is in touch believes he can produce fresh evidence, that can also be reopened. However, as Deputies have pointed out, as time goes on, it becomes more and more difficult to establish these things and I can only advise anybody who has not applied for a medal and feels he is entitled to it that he should do so now while it is still possible to establish the fact that he was a member.

I can think of no other way in which membership could be established than the present way. There have been various exhortations made to me to-day to give every applicant fair play and to be as generous as possible, but the onus is on me to be satisfied that the person has been a member for the critical period and there is only one way of getting that proof, that is, by going to the appropriate verifying officer.

Would the Minister consider sworn affidavits from non-commissioned personnel as evidence?

As a matter of fact, in doubtful cases, we do sometimes go to volunteer pensioners in the area. There have been cases in which that has been the deciding factor. I make every possible effort to ensure that a wrong decision is not given. I cannot guarantee that wrong decisions are not given sometimes but if they are, it is due to the fact that the evidence just cannot be obtained. With regard to the recent introduction of extended service for members of the Garda in possession of a medal with bar, a medal with bar was awarded only to people who were considered to be entitled to military service pensions.

A service certificate.

A service certificate which entitled them to the award of a pension and, as Deputies know, there is now no provision for the award of pensions. Everybody got a reasonable opportunity, in fact, a number of opportunities, to apply for military service certificates and a number of opportunities to appeal against adverse decisions. Apparently there are some people still who did not apply, particularly in the Gardaí and I have set up a Departmental committee to investigate cases such as that. This Departmental committee will decide whether, in their opinion, such a person, if he had applied for a military service certificate, would have been awarded one. If it is established to their satisfaction that he probably would have been awarded a military service certificate, then he may be awarded the medal with bar, but he cannot be given the certificate which would entitle him to a pension.

Is that being brought to the notice of the applicants?

Yes, but anybody who did apply for a certificate and was turned down by the referee cannot have his case reconsidered; it is only people who did not apply, and people who write in to my Department in that connection are informed to that effect.

In relation to the Connaught Rangers, Deputy Davern raised the question of a man whose pension was withdrawn because of conviction for a civil offence. There is provision in respect of military service pensioners for the restoration of a pension in such a case with the concurrence of the Minister for Defence and the Minister for Finance. There is no such provision with regard to the Connaught Rangers and I suppose that is because there was no case at the time the legislation was introduced but now that there is a case, I shall undertake to look into that matter. I shall be bringing in legislation to provide for the increase in pensions awarded in the Budget and it should be possible to bring in an amending section to cover that case.

Deputy Coogan raised another point about the Connaught Rangers, suggesting the issue of medals or some form of recognition for members of the Connaught Rangers who did not qualify for pension. I do not see how we can establish who those people are. After all, the people who were deemed to have taken part in the Connaught Rangers mutiny were tried by a British drumhead courtmartial. If the British at such a courtmartial were not able to secure a conviction, how can I now establish whether such people did take part in the mutiny or not? I cannot see any way in which people such as that could be brought in.

Was it not because of the likely repercussions at the time that they were afraid to convict them?

I do not know. I think the test for Connaught Rangers' pensions was a fairly definite one, and that was that they were payable to anybody convicted and sentenced as a result of the courtmartial arising out of the incident. I do not see what other test you could possibly have.

Deputy Sherwin raised the question of people who got medals and who were not entitled to them. I am afraid that did happen. In any case where an application is made for a special allowance, medals awarded under the old system of verification are reinvestigated. We do find cases where people apparently have got these medals without any proper entitlement to them. I do not see that there is any way of taking the medals from them. However, I am sure such persons are in a very small minority. I do not think it is so widespread as to call for the issuing of certificates with the medals without bar also. I do not think there was any other point that called for a reply by me.

The Mansion House Committee?

Oh, yes. I do not know what Deputy MacEoin was talking about there. I never gave any such undertaking. I could not have given such an undertaking because it is not in my power to issue certificates to people who have been turned down.

The case made to me was that the Minister received a deputation from the Old I.R.A. and, having heard them, he told them that if they investigated the claim of an applicant in their district and sent the documents and evidence to the Mansion House Committee and if the Mansion House Committee examined the matter and came to the conclusion that the applicant was entitled to have his case reconsidered, the Minister would undertake to give effect to the Mansion House Committee's decision. I asked how the Minister could give such an undertaking and they assured me that the Minister did give such an undertaking in 1957 or 1958.

I distinctly remember meeting such a deputation but I did not give any such undertaking. There must be some misunderstanding. I can only suggest that the people concerned get in touch with me to clear up such a misunderstanding if it does exist. I think that is all I need say.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Vote put and agreed to.
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