Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 15 Dec 1960

Vol. 185 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Dairy Produce Marketing Bill, 1960—Money Resolution.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Smith)

I move:—

That for the purpose of any Act of the present session to make further provision in relation to the marketing of milk and milk products and the improvement and development of such marketing, for those purposes to provide for the establishment of a board to be called An Bord Bainne and to define its functions, to provide for the payment of levies on milk and butter to An Bord Bainne, to amend the Dairy Produce (Price Stabilisation) Acts, 1935 to 1956, and to provide for other matters connected with the matters aforesaid, it is expedient to authorise:—

(1) the advance out of the Central Fund or the growing produce thereof of all moneys from time to time required by the Minister for Agriculture to meet sums which may become payable by him under a guarantee given by him under such Act in respect of a loan to An Bord Bainne;

(2) the charge on and payment out of the Central Fund or the growing produce thereof of—

(a) the principal of and interest on any securities issued by the Minister for Finance for the purpose of borrowing under such Act, and

(b) the expenses incurred in connection with the issue of such securities;

(3) the repayment to the Central Fund out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of moneys paid by the Minister for Agriculture under a guarantee given by him under such Act which have not been repaid to him in accordance with such Act;

(4) the payment to An Bord Bainne in each financial year out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of a grant or grants of such amount or amounts as the Minister for Agriculture may fix under such Act; and

(5) the payment out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of the expenses incurred by the Minister for Agriculture in the administration of such Act.

Mr. Dillon

Would the Minister tell us briefly the purpose of the Money Resolution?

Mr. Smith

A Money Resolution is necessary in relation to each small measure, is it not? It gives coverage to any sum small or large that might arise as a result of the passage of a measure of this nature.

Mr. Dillon

I am not sure that that is quite a sufficient explanation in relation to this Money Resolution. Am I right in saying that this Money Resolution, taken in conjunction with the Bill under consideration, limits the power of the Minister for Agriculture, with the approval of the Minister for Finance, to the payment of two-thirds of the cost of any export subsidy involved?

Mr. Smith

That is done by the Bill itself.

Mr. Dillon

We must read the Bill with the Money Resolution, must we not?

Mr. Smith

Yes. However, it does not make any difference whether it is provided in the Bill, the Money Resolution, or both.

Mr. Dillon

I am particularly anxious to explain this to Deputy Batt Donegan on whom I look as a dairy farmer of standing in county Cork. I want him to understand, when the levy begins to expand, that the crucial moment when he took the great decision boldly to shoulder that burden for the rest of the dairy farmers in his constituency throughout the province of Munster, is now. Now is the moment when Deputy Donegan and his colleagues are bracing their shoulders to bear this burden. This Money Resolution, taken in conjunction with the Bill, makes provision that in no circumstances may the Minister for Agriculture contribute more than two-thirds of the export subsidy required to dispose of the expanding production of creamery milk. We are all hopeful that, having established An Bord Bainne, we shall get further markets and we are substantially agreed amongst ourselves that getting further markets is an essential pre-requisite to expanding production. The Fianna Fáil Government claim that as production expands the surplus over and above the domestic demand must be sold abroad. The theory is that whatever the burden of cost that has to be borne, the dairy farmers will bear their fair share of it. I do no not think I am going beyond the strict relevance of this Money Resolution.

An Ceann Comhairle

It deals with the money to be expended on the administration of the Act.

Mr. Dillon

If you look at the Bill you will find there is provision in the Bill providing specifically that the Minister may prescribe a sum of less than two-thirds of the total cost for export. He cannot undertake to do more than that.

An Ceann Comhairle

Would that not fall for discussion more relevantly on the particular section?

Mr. Dillon

I want to raise it on this Resolution because I am fearful that Deputy Donegan might put a foot wrong at the crucial moment. Here is a Resolution under which his Government is going to undertake the burden and it is here that I want to make strong his power so that he will know exactly where he is going. There is no other Fianna Fáil Deputy present. They have all vanished——

Mr. O'Sullivan

Except Deputy Clohessy.

Mr. Dillon

Is Deputy Clohessy there? More power to his elbow. I thought all the rest of them had fled. I do not see hair or hide of Deputy Moher or any one of them now. In any case, these two valiant soldiers are here to face the music and I want to know what music they will have to face. As production expands, as our exportable surplus grows one-third of the necessary funds will be paid by the dairy farmers of the country. Many Deputies coming from urban constituencies will shrug their shoulders and say why should they not pay it? I shall make the case that it is an unjust and inequitable burden.

An Ceann Comhairle

Surely, that is for the section?

Mr. Dillon

I do not think so. I have been long discussing Financial Resolutions in this House——

An Ceann Comhairle

This is money provided by the Government to meet the charges in connection with An Bord Bainne.

Mr. Dillon

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

And the other portion of the funds, as the Deputy says, will come from the dairy farmers.

Mr. Dillon

No, Sir, paragraph 5 provides for "the payment out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of the expenses incurred by the Minister for Agriculture in the administration of such Act." I take it that will cover also the payment to An Bord Bainne in each financial year out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of a grant or grants of such amount or amounts as the Minister for Agriculture may fix under such Act.

An Ceann Comhairle

The money coming out of the Central Fund is the only matter which is relevant for discussion here.

Mr. Dillon

Paragraphs 3, 4 and 5?

An Ceann Comhairle

Any of the money which comes into the Fund is relevant for discussion on the particular section empowering the Minister to levy.

Mr. Dillon

But this money goes out.

An Ceann Comhairle

Out of the Central Fund.

Mr. Dillon

"The repayment to the Central Fund out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of moneys paid by the Minister for Agriculture under a guarantee given by him under such Act which have not been repaid to him in accordance with such Act; the payment to An Bord Bainne in each financial year out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of a grant or grants of such amount or amounts as the Minister for Agriculture may fix under such Act." All this is money out of the Central Fund.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, but money coming from any other source to An Bord Bainne will come from that source and will therefore, fall for discussion on the relevant section.

Mr. Dillon

I am submitting to the House that the limitation imposed by the Bill on the right of the Minister to contribute to the Central Fund is specifically stated to be two-thirds; it cannot be more and it may be less. The Minister might announce at any time that he is going to contribute half. But there is an upward limit, not a specific proportion but an upward limit, on his discretion of two-thirds of the total cost. That leaves a gap of one-third to be filled, and I think I am entitled to comment on that fact. If the Bill said the Minister may meet the entire cost of the export subsidy then a different situation might arise. Then, I could only deal with the moneys payable from the Central Fund but here is a provision whereby the Minister can meet only two-thirds of the cost.

I think a lot of people are inclined to say: "Why should he meet any more, why should not the dairy farmers carry one-third of the expenditure"?

Mr. Smith

That is what the Advisory Committee thought.

Mr. O'Sullivan

That is passing the buck.

Mr. Dillon

I do not care a fiddle-de-dee what the Advisory Committee thought. The buck does not pass my desk whatever it does in the case of the Minister. I am not here to plead that I have passed the buck of my responsibility to the committee, the commission, the board or anybody else. We are the Oireachtas and that is a responsibility that nobody can take from our shoulders except the people who sent us here. I was not sent here to say: "Oh, the Advisory Committee said that, so now we are all safe."

I want to make this case. The only section of the community that has been required to meet the increased cost of living in this country from a diminishing income is the farmers. Does the House think it equitable that with our eyes wide open and in the condition in which our farmers stand at present, we should accept, as manifestly and incontrovertibly correct, that one-third of the entire burden of finding further export markets for the increased production which we urge upon them is to be borne by the farmers themselves? There is no other section of the community upon which that demand is made.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is discussing this backwards and forwards.

Mr. Dillon

I am going to say why should not the Minister have authority under this Resolution to provide for the whole cost——

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy says that——

Mr. Dillon

That is what I am saying. I think the Ceann Comhairle, with his nimble mind, ought to be able to jump a step ahead of what I am saying and see the argument I am making and not call me to order in the middle of the argument that I am formulating. That was the next phrase I was going to utter. This demand has not been made on any other section of the community. Civil servants, Gardaí, local authority employees and everybody in receipt of wages and salaries, have been encouraged by the Government to get the various organisations concerned to seek appropriate adjustments in their incomes to meet the increased cost of living—and remember the increased cost of living is directly attributable to Government decision in respect of the prices of bread, of butter and of flour. The only section of the community in the country at present who are told: "You must accept and bear that increased burden with everybody else but you must take whatever income you get to help you to bear it" are the farmers and in the period in which the income of everybody else was deliberately raised to meet the cost, the farmers' income has dropped by £19,000,000 per annum.

The farmers are receiving £19,000,000 less than they were getting in 1957, when the increase in the cost of living was initiated. That increased cost of living now amounts to—I think—21 points. It was 17, and four more points have gone on in the last cost-of-living figure published three days ago. Now, this Financial Resolution says to the dairy farmers of the country: "Redouble your efforts; further expand your output but take notice that it will be the obligation of the Milk Board under this Bill to market it; we will give them authority under Financial Resolution to make the levy and we are providing under this Resolution that the Minister may not contribute from the Central Fund more than two-thirds of the cost."

Deputies opposite and their colleagues have a duty to point out to their constituents that they must brace themselves for the reintroduction of the levy on creamery milk and for the knowledge that, in respect of themselves, instead of getting any help to bear the burden of the increased cost of living, they must face the prospect of getting less for what they produce, the more they produce of it. That is an important fact that every Deputy ought to have in mind when dealing with this Money Resolution.

I do not believe Deputy Donegan or Deputy Doherty regards this as a fair or equitable arrangement, and they really ought to tell us what they think. I would not complain had we taken measures to ensure that the cost of living for our farmers was kept stable, as we sought to keep it stable. I foresaw, and so did the Government of which I was a member, the very development which has taken place, namely, that if we let the cost of living run away, every organised element in our community would, rightly and justly, claim that incomes ought to be appropriately adjusted and the one section of the community which would be left at the mercy of the waves would be the farmers, with special reference to the small farmers. And that is the situation that has arisen. They are getting——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is really making a Second Reading speech.

Mr. Dillon

I thought it was an appropriate speech on this Money Resolution.

An Ceann Comhairle

No.

Mr. Dillon

I shall not press the matter further. I want to direct the attention of the House to the fact that, as the cost of living rises, we are giving notice to the farmers that the cost of the levy to them on creamery milk will also rise. The Minister by this Money Resolution is strictly restricted to a maximum contribution of two-thirds of the cost of the export subsidy. The farmers will have to bear the balance. I do not think it is fair to tell the farmers that they must meet an increased cost of living of 21 points and, at the same time, experience a reduction in their total annual income of £19,000,000 per annum; and inform them also, in that context, that we are going to levy, and levy again, on any increased quantities of creamery milk they may in future produce.

Mr. Smith

If the price were only 1/- per gallon they would not be able to carry a levy anyhow.

Mr. Dillon

That is a poor consolation to the poor dupes behind the Minister. One shilling per gallon, my foot. Go fish!

(Interruptions.)

Mr. O'Sullivan

The last interruption of the Minister is indicative of his concern and his desire to rid himself of the political aspect associated with trying to cater for the problems of the dairying industry.

Mr. Smith

I cannot stand bluff.

Mr. O'Sullivan

The Minister will have his chance of replying. A few moments ago we heard him say that the Advisory Committee recommended this. That bears out the fears we expressed on the Second Reading. We said then that we were fearful that this was intended purely as a "passing of the buck" measure and we would, in future, be denied the forum of this House to make inquiries into the administration of the board.

The Minister has said that the levy, which he imposed for the first time in this State on the production of milk to creameries, has been suspended. I should like to know how the levy extracted was used, for what purpose, and the consequences that flowed from it, plus the manner in which the moneys collected were expended. I believe we should vote the full 100 per cent. cost of the subsidisation of any exportable surplus we have. I want to show now some of the effects that will flow from the enactment of this measure, if the House passes it.

The milk suppliers to creameries had a guaranteed price until the present Minister introduced his levy. The levy is at the moment in a state of suspension but it is proposed to put it back once more on the backs of our primary producers through the medium of this Money Resolution. Is the Minister satisfied that there will not be grave uneasiness, to put it mildly, amongst the milk producers at the loss of the guaranteed price, remembering that the guarantee was given to them as an inducement to produce more. It would be in the interests of everybody if more were produced either industrially or agriculturally because we should thereby achieve a higher standard of living for the country as a whole. We must admit that on the road towards higher production we have experienced very, very grave difficulties.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy, but clearly the only thing that falls for discussion on this Money Resolution is the charge on the Central Fund.

Mr. O'Sullivan

I assure the Ceann Comhairle I will relate what I am saying to the charge on the Central Fund. I hold that the entire charge should fall on the Central Fund, and not just two-thirds of it. If the farmers produce more, it is quite obvious that they will suffer a reduction in their incomes under this proposed scheme. The Minister created another board on another occasion, An Bord Gráin. He imposed a levy on wheat growing. We all know what happened. We are dealing now with another board, An Bord Bainne.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am afraid the Deputy is travelling very far beyond the scope of this Money Resolution. We are dealing with the charge that will fall on the Central Fund in the administration of this Bill. If the Deputy wishes to refer to any particular charge on the dairy farmers that should fall relevantly for discussion on the particular section imposing the charge.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Quite. There are only two parties who can create this fund—the State and the farmers. It is intended under this that the State will provide not more than two-thirds of the cost. The farmers will have to pay one-third at least. That burden on the farmers will be detrimental to their future and the future of the country.

An Ceann Comhairle

We may not discuss who is called upon to pay. That will arise under the particular section in which the charge is made. It cannot properly arise on this. This is merely a charge on the Central Fund.

Mr. O'Sullivan

My point is that the charge on the Central Fund is insufficient. We all hope the results it is claimed will result will be harvested but there will be a very heavy charge for the subsidisation of this board. We are being asked now to confine the State to a contribution of not more than two-thirds of the cost. We consider that inequitable because the other contribution of one-third which will be sought from the farmers is something that is not imposed on the backs of other producers. It is inequitable that the House should give the Minister this opportunity of relieving the Government of their responsibilities and transfer those responsibilities on to the backs of people who are unable to carry them.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

We are asked here to provide the money the Minister will want from time to time for An Bord Bainne. Before we pass that money, I want to know is the Minister prepared to give us detailed information as to what will happen subsequent to the passing of the money. If a Deputy has occasion to ask questions subsequently as to how this money is expended, will he be told that the Minister has no function in the matter and that it is entirely a question for An Bord Bhainne?

Mr. Smith

He probably will.

Mr. O'Sullivan

I see.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

The Minister has given a direct answer to this question. He has told me that if this money is passed it will be futile for any Deputy elected by the people to put down questions as to how this money will be expended. On that basis I oppose it. We have enough of these boards.

An Ceann Comhairle

The only thing that arises for discussion on this Resolution——

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I am confining myself entirely to the Resolution.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not. He is raising a far wider question, the question of what may be raised in this House in relation to An Bord Bhainne. That is an entirely different matter. The Deputy should confine himself to the charge that will come on the Central Fund as a result of this Money Resolution. That is the only thing relevant.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Surely it is natural that Deputies should address themselves to the question of how this money is to be expended and what information will be given about it?

An Ceann Comhairle

No, it is not relevant on this Resolution. It may be relevant in some other place. It certainly is not relevant on this Resolution. The only thing relevant is the amount of money the Minister is asking the House to guarantee or sanction in respect of An Bord Bainne.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

You will agree with me, Sir, that as a result of addressing this question to the Minister, I got definite information from him——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not concerned with what the Deputy got. I am concerned only with the relevancy of his remarks. His remarks are not relevant to this Resolution.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Am I to assume then, Sir, according to your ruling, that one must not take account at all of how this money is to be expended?

An Ceann Comhairle

What the Deputy must take from my ruling is that his remarks must be related to the matter under discussion and nothing else.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I think that in dealing with Money Resolutions it is quite in order to refer to the method of expenditure of that money and to ask the appropriate authority, the Minister, for information as to its expenditure.

An Ceann Comhairle

I did not object to that, but the Deputy was widening the scope of the discussion by referring to matters which may be raised in this House. That does not fall relevantly for discussion on this Money Resolution.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Since the Ceann Comhairle says he does not object to that, I can proceed. I disagree entirely with authorising the expenditure of public funds by this House without Deputies having the right to question the expenditure subsequently.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is going back to the other matter. If he persists, I shall have to ask him to resume his seat.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I do not think it will be necessary to go that far. You will appreciate, Sir, that you yourself have ruled very rigidly on questions relating to State-sponsored bodies——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have ruled in accordance with Standing Orders, as far as I understand them. But on this occasion I am ruling very definitely that the Deputy must deal with the amount of money that falls to be paid out of the Central Fund in respect of the provisions of the measure the Minister is introducing.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

We are asked to provide money for a State-sponsored body about whose operations we are not to get any information in the future. We are told by the responsible Minister: "Once this money is authorised, you will have no further. say in the matter." Surely that arises, Sir?

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not fall for discussion on this Money Resolution.

Mr. Donegan

Speaking as a representative of the dairy farmers who will be engaged in the production of this milk, I would very much like to see the State indemnify us against any losses that may be incurred by this Board, but there is another side to the picture. One of the things we hope this Board will do is to provide a marketing organisation abroad to deal efficiently with our produce. Therefore, in justice, I do not think we could expect it to operate without some contribution from the dairy industry in the form of bearing a share of the losses that may occur, if any.

By and large, I think the dairy farmers would much prefer to be in a position to operate independently rather than to have to come to the State for a contribution to carry on their business. I think that, generally, they would be satisfied if the State bears two-thirds of any losses that may arise.

Mr. Smith

That is an honest contribution.

Mr. O'Sullivan

I shall make another honest contribution. If the farmers would be satisfied with the State bearing two-thirds of the cost, they must have been delighted when the last Government bore the whole cost of the subsidisation of the exportable surplus.

Mr. Smith

You had no exports.

Mr. O'Sullivan

One and half million pounds was spent in one year on exports.

Mr. Dillon

We exported more butter in 1956/57 than you ever exported while in office.

Mr. O'Sullivan

And at the same time subsidised butter for our own people to eat.

Mr. Smith

You offered them a shilling a gallon. You cannot get away from your history.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister does not know and, what is more, he does not care.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

The Minister informed us that when this Board is functioning, the officers of his Department administering the Dairy Produce Acts would become redundant. As a result of that, will we have some credit balance to add to the funds necessary for this legislation or will they be kept on, as I think is usually the case, doing some other type of work?

Mr. Smith

I do not know what redundancy the Deputy is referring to.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I am referring to the notes which the Minister supplied with the Bill in which it is stated that when the proposed board is fully in operation there will no longer be any need for the greater part of the previous Acts. What will happen to the money expended in the operation of those Acts at the present time?

Mr. Smith

Whatever status is occupied by the Butter Marketing Committee at the present time will be taken over by the new board.

Mr. Wycherley

Will the new board have power to sell anything apart from milk and milk products? If an agent of the new board meets someone abroad who wants to——

An Ceann Comhairle

The only matter relevant to the discussion is the amount of money which falls to be paid by the Central Fund. All other matters will arise for discussion on the Bill itself.

Mr. Wycherley

What we are passing now is the money that must be spent.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is the amount of money that falls to be paid out of the Central Fund that is relevant.

Mr. O'Sullivan

May I ask the Minister whether the expenditure of these moneys will entail any savings for other State Departments?

Mr. Smith

I do not think so.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolution reported and agreed to.