Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Feb 1961

Vol. 186 No. 1

Public Business. - State Guarantees Act, 1954 (Amendment of Schedule) Order, 1960: Motion of Approval.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Blaney)

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves the following Order in draft:

State Guarantees Act, 1954 (Amendment of Schedule) Order, 1960

a copy of which Order in draft has been laid before the House.

The National Building Agency, Ltd., is a Company registered under the Companies Acts, having a nominal capital of £100 divided into 100 shares of £1 each. Its title in Irish is Foirgníocht Éireann, Teoranta. The establishment of the agency in its present form has been sponsored by me with the approval of the Government to meet a special need which, it is recognised, is not adequately catered for within the existing statutory and administrative machinery.

The primary objects of the agency are to facilitate the provision of housing and ancillary services at centres where industrial developments necessitate the recruitment and housing of personnel whose requirements cannot appropriately be met by local authorities and are not otherwise met by private enterprise.

The availability of suitable housing is a prime factor in determining the location of a new industry or the practicability of expanding an existing concern. In the normal course, the demand for housing for workers living in a particular area is met by the housing authority and, in the case of owner-occupation, by private initiative. In an area, however, where the supply of housing cannot meet an immediate demand for additional accommodation for managerial, executive and skilled personnel being recruited to that area, industrial development creates a special problem which calls for a special solution.

Industrial promoters find it necessary to direct their capital initially to immediately productive investment. They do not, in fact, expect to find themselves confronted with the necessity to undertake the provision of housing, on however small a scale, at the formative stage when their enterprise and skill are devoted to the task of establishing the new industry. This is a problem of which my Department has become increasingly aware with the growth of recent industrial promotion.

In his public reference in September last to the proposed establishment of this agency, the Taoiseach expressed the Government's view and, I anticipate, that of the House, when he said that "this is a problem that we do not mind at all having to cope with". Having considered the many aspects of this rather urgent problem, including the necessity to have machinery available as soon as practicable which would be capable of acting speedily and efficiently to meet even the most modest requirement in any particular area, the National Building Agency, Ltd., was incorporated with the intention that it would be scheduled to the State Guarantees Act so that the Minister for Finance can guarantee its capital borrowings.

The procedure was decided upon to facilitate the Company in undertaking such operations as might be required of it immediately following its incorporation. The necessity for such an agency has proved itself by the extent of the demand for its services which became apparent following the public announcement of its establishment. If inquiries so far in train mature into firm projects, the amount of the guarantee now sought would be fully utilised in a comparatively short period. While it is too early as yet to forecast a continuance of demand at its present rate, it is already apparent, however, that consideration may have to be given to making more adequate long-term arrangements available for the financing of its operation.

The National Building Agency will provide a service which in so far as it is availed of by industrial and commercial undertakings, will be paid for by these undertakings. For example, it will provide such houses as a new industrial promotion requires to overcome the difficulty in recruiting from other areas workers possessing special skills, subject to an agreement that the industrial interests concerned will underwrite the rents, leases, or mortgage repayments of the houses and services provided or otherwise accept responsibility for recoupment to the agency of its capital expenditure. In this way, the establishment of new industries need no longer be handicapped because of a problem of housing for executive and key personnel.

It is intended that the National Building Agency may, apart from the purpose I have outlined, fulfil other functions for the State, such as the building of houses for Gardaí and other Government officers whose duties make them liable to transfer from one district to another and who sometimes encounter re-housing difficulties.

The operations of the National Building Agency in its present form will be entrusted to personnel serving in the Civil Service whose experience and responsibilities are closely linked with the administration of national policy on housing and related services, on finance and on industry. By virtue of its having the form of a registered company, the directors of the agency will be in a position to take immediate action where circumstances so require, by entering into direct agreements with industrial interests to ensure that housing and other related services will be provided according as they are required.

Mr. O'Donnell

Naturally, any body set up to further the promotion of housing is always welcome. We are particularly glad that this agency will cater for the Garda, Army and other such Government officers. That has been badly needed for a great many years. I wonder if the procedure will become rather cumbersome? We are setting up an incorporated body which may proceed to build houses with State guaranteed funds and rent them, lease them or sell them to individuals. The directors of this company have no experience of building. I presume these houses will be built by contract or by direct labour. First of all, there is the administration of the company; then there are the profits of the builder; and then the profits of the developer. It may make these houses very expensive to the personnel for whom they are being built.

While I welcome the proposal, one thing worries me. The Minister states the primary objects of the agency are to facilitate the provision of housing and ancillary services at centres where industrial developments necessitate the recruitment and housing of personnel. "At centres,"—are we to build new towns? Where will these houses be built? Take Shannon. As a result of setting up industries there, it may be necessary to house the personnel but are we to take them away from Ennis? Are we to build the houses in Ennis or in its outskirts, or in the immediate vicinity of the factory? Is this an effort to set up new towns with new shopping centres, thereby depriving existing towns and shopkeepers of a livelihood? The Minister should look into that point very carefully. Possibly he has done so and perhaps he might explain his intention.

I can visualise a project, say at Ards. If houses were to be built there for personnel, they should be built at the nearest village or town, not in the immediate vicinity of the factory because then we would be creating new towns which would be in competition with towns which at the moment can scarcely exist from a business point of view. If the Minister assures us the agency will not operate in that manner and that new towns and new shopping centres will not be created, I think the House would be more contented.

The town of Ballyshannon comes to mind. During the boom years when the E.S.B. were developing power there, we had a big influx of workmen, as high as 800, into the town. The local authority was encouraged to provide homes for those people. Unfortunately, when the project reached completion, the employees had to move back to their original habitation or to procure employment somewhere else, with the result that we now have a number of houses in Ballyshannon which we are unable to let even at an uneconomic rent. The agency would be very wise to move slowly. If the Minister can assure us that mushroom towns will not spring up in a very short period which will go into competition with towns already in existence, I am sure the House would welcome the project.

Mr. Norton

I believe this Bill will ultimately prove a useful piece of legislation. Its possibilities for aid are not confined even to the establishment of new industries, although I recognise at once its importance in that field. So far as Government services are concerned, there is need for services of this kind.

Take the Post Office as an example. A person is offered promotion only to find that the place at which the promotion is offered has no suitable housing accommodation and that there is no residence attached to the post office. After a few visits to the town in which he hoped to get the promotion, the officer has finally to give up, although he might otherwise like the town, and lose his seniority because somebody else will have to get the promotion.

Generally speaking, the officer there loses the opportunity of getting what is his right and legitimate promotion, simply because there was no suitable accommodation in the town.

Under this Bill, the new housing agency will contact the Post Office and provide houses in all these towns where suitable houses are not available for persons promoted to these towns, that is, promoted from an appointment in another part of the country to a higher one in that town. It is not worth while for an officer to try to buy a house if he remains in a place for only three, four or five years and then goes to some other place. He cannot develop a long-term interest in the house. It is uneconomic in such circumstances to buy houses with the expense of acquisition, in the first instance, and then disposal when he ultimately leaves the town. It would be much better in such circumstances if the house were the property of the Post Office so that it would be available for those whom the Post Office appoint to positions of chargeship of offices in these towns.

It can do very useful work from the point of view of housing members of the Garda Síochána and the Army who are transferred from one place to the other and people whose conditions of employment make them liable to such transfer. I hope that both the Garda authorities and the Army, together with the Post Office, will utilise this agency for the purpose of supplying what is a long felt want among persons employed in these different services.

I think the Bill fills a need so far as new industries are concerned. As the Minister pointed out, many of those promoting a new industry are concerned to ensure that the finances are directed to a type of investment which will aid the industry and give a return to the investors. They do not cheerfully contemplate having to spend a substantial sum of money in the purchase of houses which they regard as aside from their main activities and not of a character to bring a reward. Very frequently, a number of these industries find it necessary to bring in key personnel. In fact, in many of these industries, the whole success depends upon the ability of the key personnel to direct the firm's activities and to impart to untrained local labour the skill which the keyman has acquired after long years of experience.

These keymen have found it extremely difficult to get suitable housing accommodation. I have known cases where because of that and other factors, the keyman himself found it necessary to go back to his original place of employment. It has been suggested from time to time that the local authority should provide for these people. It is easy to say that until you come up against the reality of the situation. If a number of people are seeking houses from the local authority, people who have been born and reared in a particular town, and they see some person coming in from overseas and getting a house to which the locals felt they had a right, there can be great dissatisfaction. A good deal of agitation can arise from housing an outside keyman in a house which a local person legitimately believes ought to be allocated to him and his family. This, however, would remove the housing of the key executives from the realm of controversy and would enable the local industry, through its association with this housing agency, to provide houses up to its full requirements and on conditions which would not impose any onerous burden on the firm concerned.

I was glad to hear the Minister say that since this project was first mentioned, there have been many inquiries as to the facilities which will be made available and when they will be made available. So that we might judge the situation by the extent of the demand, perhaps the Minister would give us some information as to how many inquiries were made and the directions from which they came. Have they come from industries? Have any come from semi-State bodies or from Departments? I should like to see to what extent we are likely to find this scheme embraced enthusiastically by all those for whom it is intended to cater.

On the whole, I welcome the Bill. I think it can be a very useful piece of legislation. Because of the fact that it is a registered company that is concerned, with considerable flexibility, it should be possible to provide these houses without any frustrating formalities or obstacles which in the course of time might be found to carry with them so much irritation as to blunt a real keen interest in what I think can be a very useful piece of housing legislation.

Mr. Briscoe

I welcome very much this new development in the provision of houses for certain persons. For some time, I have been making inquiries and discussing this matter in order to overcome what appeared to be a difficult problem but which is now solved. If an industry starts in any part of Ireland, outside the metropolitan area, the skilled operatives have to be brought along and no housing facilities are available. Possibly the operative could apply for a loan under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. That was, in a sense, difficult because of the many cases where skilled operatives remained for a certain time and were then changed. The difficulty was that the person to whom a loan was made and who entered into commitments had no guarantee of a sufficiently long term of service to cover his liabilities in regard to repayments.

I hope the Minister will make it clear that where a factory starts in a town and requires skilled operatives, the firm itself can have the houses built under this agency through an arrangement similar to that under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. In other words, the factory will have the houses built and will be liable for the repayments over the requisite period of years and will be able to have these houses occupied by their own special workers.

That is one of the points which concerns the industrialists, as Deputy Norton pointed out. The amount of money necessary for this registered company will be somewhat similar to that required for operations under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. I take it that in regard to the Post Office, the Army or whatever other authority requires houses for its members, that authority will be responsible for the repayments of moneys on houses built to meet their requirements. In time, therefore, it will not be a question of money spent which is never recoverable, but a case of large scale advances recoverable over a period of years with appropriate rates of interest to cover the moneys borrowed by the authorities from, I take it, wherever they will get it, from the Local Loans Fund.

I should like the Minister to make it clear that the position has now been reached that where a factory starting in a certain town finds it necessary to build a certain number of houses for some of its special workers, the factory can borrow, from this agency, the money required to build the houses; under the same arrangements, if you like, as apply to local authorities where they are operating the Small Dwellings Acquisition Loans. If that is the case, a very great need will have been met and a very great service will have been done for the decentralisation of industries.

Mr. McQuillan

I welcome this measure and I should like to say that the objects which it may achieve will not be fully appreciated for quite some time. It is rather amusing to think that Government Departments have in this instance cut a stick to beat themselves. Over the years, various Governments have promised to bring in a certain amount of decentralisation of Government services. For instance, the Department of Lands on a number of occasions was prepared to bring in decentralisation, perhaps to set up a certain section in Athlone or Galway, or to set up Forestry in some other part of the country. Social Welfare was to be decentralised, as well as various other Government services.

One of the biggest arguments put forward by the various Government Departments against decentralisation was the lack of suitable housing accommodation for the higher civil servants and their families. Now we have the position that the Department of Lands can apply to this agency and say: "We would like 30 houses built in Athlone. We propose to set up a section of our Forestry Department there." As far as Galway is concerned, the Department of Lands can say: "We are going to reconstitute the Congested Districts Board and we need 30 or 40 houses." As time goes on, the benefits of this measure will become more and more apparent. Apart altogether from the industrial end, a great deal of good work can be done in regard to housing the staffs of existing State and semi-State concerns.

I am a little vague about what the Minister has in mind with regard to immediate construction work, especially as regards existing State and semi-State bodies. We have the E.S.B. carrying out their own building programme and Bord na Móna also have a special housing section for constructing houses for engineers and technicians. Will the position arise that this will be a State agency which will be in a position to control the building activities of bodies like the E.S.B. and Bord na Móna? To give an example, we have the position where in town "X", the E.S.B. have a number of houses which they are not able to fill with workers and side by side Bord na Móna are carrying out their functions and are not in the position to get the vacant E.S.B. houses for their own workers, due to the fact that legislation precludes them. Therefore, you have two semi-State bodies which are not co-ordinating their housing problem.

It is a fantastic situation to see some of the houses controlled by E.S.B. vacant, while Bord na Móna workers are not able to get houses for themselves. This agency should be in a position to examine the building problems of State bodies and co-ordinate them. If there are houses available in a particular locality which are held by Bord na Móna and which are not being utilised, the agency should have power to direct that these houses be handed over to another State body which may be in the locality.

The question of helping industry is very interesting because to a great extent building carried out under this measure will be for industrial workers. Most of our State companies are engaged in industrial work. If we take the Sugar Company, or Bord na Móna, or the fruit and vegetable body, we see that all those companies are engaged in industrial development and this building agency should consult with these boards which are already in operation and suggest to them that they are prepared to carry out building work so that the companies activities can be expanded in the shortest possible time.

I am not too sure about this, but I feel the Minister has remedied what I felt was a weakness. I was afraid, with all the talk about attractions for industrialists, that we were embarking on a building programme for foreign industrialists, with no onus on these people to buy these houses when they had been constructed. I gather from the Minister now that as far as private industrialists are concerned, this agency will just build the houses but these people will have to buy them and pay for them. The situation could be very serious if we had the position that the Government, first of all, were giving 50 per cent. of the grant for the construction of a factory, 50 per cent. of the cost of training the workers for the factory, giving perhaps 30 per cent. of the remainder of the money in a loan, giving them tax-free profits for a period of ten years and allowing them to take whatever profits they made out of the country, and then, in addition, embarking on a housing programme for these industrialists.

I would hope that that will not take place under any circumstances and I would like the Minister when replying to nail down that position so that people will not come in here with the impression that the Government, on top of all the facilities they are already making available to attract industrialists to this country, are now going to provide them with houses as well.

Mr. Coogan

I should like to associate myself with the welcome that has been extended to this measure. In the event of decentralisation taking place, will the company take steps to provide the necessary houses? I can see a big demand for key personnel in Departments. I know that there are dozens of young men and women who are employed in this city who, in the event of decentralisation of any Department, would be very keen to return, say, to Galway. Housing would be required for the key personnel of those decentralised Departments, as in the case of factories. I welcome the measure because it will help to relieve a headache that local authorities have. I should like to know if it is the intention to bring members of the Defence Forces, the Gardaí, or other Government employees within the scope of the measure. Further, will the company have powers in respect of site acquisition?

Mr. Blaney

I am very gratified at the reception of this measure in its general intent by the House. Deputies who have spoken feel, as all of us have felt for some time, that there was a gap to be closed in regard to housing, not only in regard to industry but also in regard to some Departmental staff, such as Gardaí and others who are moved around, and having in mind transfers of personnel that might take place because of decentralisation of any Department or any part of a Department to any part of the country where houses would not be readily available for such staff.

Lest there might be any wrong ideas about the situation, it should be said right away that this company is a company which builds houses or causes houses to be built only after they have ascertained whether or not houses can be obtained in any other way or through any other agency. If a private builder or a local authority have houses available or if speculative builders have plans to provide houses to meet the need that would appear to exist in any particular case, this agency would not build in competition with either of these groups. It is not the intention that they should be competitors; rather is it the intention that where houses are not being provided under any other heading or by any other group or agency, this agency when called upon to do so, whether by an industrialist or a Government Department, will make itself available to provide houses, as requested by these people.

It is only right that it should be made absolutely clear that this agency is not a building construction company in the commercial business of building in competition with private enterprise. Neither is it to supersede in any way the functions of local authorities who have their own responsibilities and priority classes whom it is their duty to house. Again, this Company is not intended to overlap that duty of local authorities or local housing authorities throughout the country.

I want to assure Deputy O'Donnell and the House the agency is being set up to provide new centres. From that, the House may have taken it that the intention is to build new towns. Towns will not be built and it is not the intention that they should be built merely for the sake of building new towns. In fact, I do not envisage any great development in this direction. Rather do I see it in this way: Where an industry is set up, the development of employment in that industry may overtax the number of available employees in the district at the time and may involve bringing in workers from the surrounding district, the surrounding counties or back from England or even in some cases bringing in foreign skilled personnel to train workers and houses will be built for those people but only at the behest of the industrialists concerned.

Deputy McQuillan expressed the fear that the houses would be provided free for the industrialists. That is not so. The houses will be provided on order from the industrialists and there will be suitable and acceptable guarantees from the industrialists that they will repay the cost of the houses when they have been constructed or over a period of years thereafter.

Having built any given number of houses at the request of an industrialist and subject to his guaranteeing repayment of the outlay of the building agency, the houses will then pass to the industrialist for the housing of his workers. The industrialist can let them, can subsidise them, can put his workers into them free of rent. That will be entirely his business at that stage. The main purpose, of course, is that no industry will be curbed in its activity or development in future through lack of housing for necessary personnel who cannot be housed by the local authority or by private enterprise. That is the kernel of the need and it is that need that we hope to meet by this building agency in the time that lies ahead.

Deputy Norton has sought information as to the extent of the inquiries that have been made and asked for a general idea as to where they emanated from. I shall give very rough figures on that. To date 31 known industrial undertakings have been inquiring and, in some instances, pursuing their inquiries to quite a considerable degree. In addition, 15 individual inquirers, such as solicitors and accountants, have indicated their interest in this new building agency and have been seeking information relative to its operations from their point of view on behalf of industrialists. Whether all of the inquiries are genuinely in the interests of some industry or not we do not know, but 15 such inquiries have been received and replied to. There have been 31 firm inquiries and certain discussions have taken place with known industrialists in the country. Two or three of our Departments of State have initiated certain discussions and inquiries have been received from, I think, four others. So that, in the short time since the intention to set up this building agency was made public, there has been a very decided indication that there is a need for it and from the preliminary discussions that have taken place, some of them more definite than others, it is quite clear that they were not just idle and curious inquiries, that the inquirers were very definitely interested in many of the cases I have mentioned, and I am quite definite that certain developments in the provision of houses in these cases will take place in the not too distant future.

It has been mentioned that the directors of the company, through inexperience of building operations, might increase the cost of houses. I want to say again that this will not be a construction company or a building company in the sense of doing the actual building themselves. Rather will they in the ordinary way make known their requirements on a particular site, and their specifications will be available. Contractors will be asked for their price and no doubt it will be some of these contractors who will be successful in pricing the specification most keenly who ultimately will come to build the houses.

Mr. Corish

They will not be allowed to build by direct labour?

Mr. Blaney

Not unless they are a little more keen than some of these who have been at it.

Mr. Corish

The Minister will take care of it.

Mr. Blaney

Yes. We shall try for a while. To allay any fears Deputy O'Donnell and the House may have, may I say these directors are very well-learned in dealing with contracts, pricing, specifications, planning and all the details of a building job. The personnel of my Department are specially chosen because of their intimate knowledge of house building generally throughout the country. There is the person who deals with local authority housing in the section in the Department. Then there is the person from the grants section. Naturally a great deal of knowledge must come through to this gentleman. Again, he is a member of the board. We have available to us in the Department of Local Government excellently qualified personnel for the operation envisaged in relation to this Company. I do not think it would be possible to pick out from any other walk of life people as suitably qualified for the job we have in mind under this National Building Agency. I am satisfied that with people having that knowledge there can be no question of our having expensive building. On the contrary, it is my hope and belief that through the expert knowledge of these people operating as the directors of the company the costs of housebuilding under this agency will be under rather than over the normal costs throughout the country.

Deputy Briscoe mentioned the method of repayment for these houses and sought some word from me that the occupiers would ultimately come to be treated in the same manner as S.D.A. loan recipients. I cannot give any particular assurance in this case because this Company will build at the request of an industry. The industry will conform to the conditions of guarantee of repayment of the total cost of the houses concerned. The houses are being provided for the industry's workers. Surely it would be for the industry who will then be the virtual owners of the houses to determine whether or not they are to be given over for permanent occupation by those whom they have put into them or whether, in the peculiar circumstances of their industrial business, it would be tying them up to put in any particular person for all time rather than be able to facilitate others coming into the industry who might need houses?

The first people who took up the houses may be able to build their own houses. If the first occupier became the owner-occupier, the purpose behind housebuilding for these people by the company would be defeated. However, it is a matter which the industry concerned can deal with in their own time, and I have no doubt that they will do whatever is best in the long-term interests. I do not think it will be the job of this company, after the houses have been built, to pursue exactly how these houses are being handled or occupied. That would be going very much beyond what the duties of this company would be.

Deputy McQuillan expressed the fear of duplication of building by State companies and asked whether this new agency would control all building for the E.S.B. and Bord na Móna, to mention but a few. He instanced a case in his own constituency of houses belonging to one of these State boards being vacant while houses are being sought by workers of the other State board in the same area. There are houses vacant belonging to these State boards in particular counties. Local authorities are anxious to provide houses there and all that really would be required, if the company no longer needs the houses, would be some amendment to enable them to let the houses to these local workers rather than that the local authority would have to build new houses.

That is not a matter entirely for this company, but I can give the House this assurance, that one of the Articles of Association of the company obliges the National Building Agency Company to furnish the Minister with information on matters incidental to or relating to any of the objects of the company, which is house-building and ancillary services. That means that I can obtain from them the result of an investigation which they could be asked to carry out in regard to availability of houses, whether E.S.B. or Bord na Móna houses or what you will, in any part of the country. The results of that investigation could be brought to the notice of the appropriate authority for joint action if joint action were required. In other words we can co-ordinate to some degree these activities as a result of the information furnished by this company.

Talking about guaranteeing, it is not so that in all cases the National Building Agency, where it is called in, will in fact proceed to build houses themselves as a company. It may well be, as a result of their inquiries negotiations and ascertaining of the need arising in any particular area, that the problem will be resolved by advice, for instance, to the local industry or the workers of a local industry to get together in a public utility society and build their own houses with the aid of S.D.A. loans. It is only when this Company has found out there is no other way of providing housing that it will operate. I do not want this to be taken too literally; this building Agency is a builder of last resort. That does not mean you have to wait 50 years for them to operate. In fact, the underlying intention of setting up this Company is that they will have freedom to move more quickly and efficiently than is the case with our own local authorities who are circumscribed even by the operations of my own Department. That is part of the reason for the company, but, nevertheless, it is still right to say it is a builder of last resort rather than a company that will rush to build houses here, there and everywhere.

Mr. Corish

They will be awfully last at that rate.

Mr. Norton

It is unfortunate the Minister has used that phrase "builder of last resort" having established a good reputation for the Agency. That means that in a town of 10,000 people you must have almost a local inquiry to disclose whether a house is available.

Mr. Blaney

Let me point out again how this comes in. We have in the Department, from which the directors of this Company are drawn, a vast amount of information about the housing situation in every local authority of every housing authority in the country. When an inquiry is received I think it is prudent for the company to avail itself immediately of the information available in my Department in regard to housing in that locality. Having seen at a rough glance the situation, as it is known to us, it is quite easy to ascertain if that information needs revision by ringing up or going to the local housing authority down the country, whether county or urban council or corporation, and finding out on the spot if the information we have about housing is up to date and, if it is not, to bring it up to date.

If it is found that, in fact, all the houses are needed beyond question and that the facts and figures we have are confirmed and that so many houses are needed and that there is no other way of providing them, then the building agency would set to work to provide the additional houses for the project whatever it might be.

When I refer to the agency as a builder of last resort I wish it to be understood that that is only on the ground that it is not a competitor with private enterprise. I know it is possibly regarded as unfortunate that we should use that term, but nevertheless I think we should make it abundantly clear that the agency will not supplant the duties or obligations in regard to houses of local authorities. It should not be regarded as supplanting anybody or being in competition with anybody and, considered in that way, the description of "builder of last resort" so qualified is not at all as unfortunate as it might at first appear.

Mr. Norton

Do we take it that the tenants who are going to occupy the houses and pay rent for them will have some voice in determining the kind of houses in which they are going to live? In other words, the house would be made for the tenant rather than the tenant made for the house?

Mr. Blaney

If, for instance, a worker or workers are to be brought in from abroad—they may be Irish nationals returning or, through force of circumstances, they may be foreign —the company or the industrialist comes to the National Building Agency and says: "We need six houses for six key workers. Let their nationality be what it may, we want them." They tell us what size house, approximately, they want and what price they will pay. It will really be the industrialists who will order these houses and guarantee to pay for them. The wishes of the worker will be expressed, I am sure, or will be ascertained by the industrialist, but the workers will certainly not be interviewed as to their wishes or likes or dislikes by the building agency. I take it that prudence will dictate that if the company is trying to entice key personnel to their factory and that if the housing question is raised by these workers, naturally, the management of the factory will try to satisfy the expressed needs of the workers in regard to the houses required. It is the industrialist who will come to the building agency, not the actual workers. Whatever may be done between the workers and the industrialist the worker does not come to the agency to have a house built for him. It is for the industrialist the houses are built and he gets them built for his workers.

Deputy Coogan of Galway was very anxious to know whether the building agency would provide houses for the decentralisation of Departments. It would be quite happy to do so if and when particular Departments call on it for that purpose and houses are not otherwise available. Three Departments have so far interested themselves to some degree in this matter, and it is quite possible that some decentralisation building may not be too long delayed so far as the operation of this Company is concerned.

I think I can only repeat what I said already, that the Company is there to fill a need. Whatever our various views may be on that matter, I think we are all pretty well agreed that industry should not be held up for want of houses throughout the country. Departmental personnel, who are subject to transfer and who have no real stake wherever they are that would induce them to build or own their own houses, are in a special category. Nobody provides houses for them at the moment, and they constitute a group that can be looked after, and which it is intended shall be looked after, by this Company. The over-all idea of the Company, while doing that Departmental work, I should like to think, will be to provide added help—not an incentive—to the expansion of our industries, to the initiation of new industries so that we can say hereafter that no industry has been cramped in its expansion programme through lack of housing or that no town or village has lost an industry because it was apparent that there were not sufficient houses for the personnel who would have to come and work there. I think this Company fill that need, and I am satisfied that the years immediately ahead will show that the welcome of the House for this measure was well-founded and that it will, in fact, do a good job.

Mr. Norton

Where an industrialist seems convinced that he needs housing accommodation for key workers—and in the long run they are the people upon whom the success of the industry depends and it is very frequently essential to get them housed quickly so as to have them on the spot—will the fact that the agency is a "builder of last resort"—the phrase used by the Minister—operate to delay the provision of houses in such cases? Will the Minister give us an assurance on that point?

Mr. Blaney

I can certainly readily give that assurance. The "builder of last resort" is intended to convey to those who have been doing the building that has been done over the years that this is not a new competitor. There is still a large amount of work to do and there will continue to be such work to be done over the years by housing authorities and by private enterprise. When this building agency gets a request from an industrialist they will have at their finger-tips, as it were, a vast amount of information on the housing situation in any part of the country and they will also have access to the local authority information on the spot and they will go and make their own investigation. That will not mean a long delay; it can be done in a matter of days. If it is evident after some days, just as readily as it would be after some months, that these houses are required as an urgent necessity for the wellbeing of some industry set up or about to be set up then the National Building Agency, subject to getting a guarantee of repayment of the cost of the housing, can immediately get on with the job, and there will be no question of delay in that case.

Mr. Norton

I am satisfied.

Mr. Coogan

The Minister did not say whether this Company would have power of acquisition of sites?

Mr. Blaney

I am sorry I did not mention that. There is no power of compulsory acquisition.

Mr. Coogan

Will that not be a stumbling block, if sites are required near a factory?

Mr. Blaney

The peculiar relationship of the personnel of the directorate of this company with my Department and, through the Department, with the housing authorities, will undoubtedly be a very decided asset in their operations with the housing authorities to obtain sites in various areas.

Mr. Coogan

Will the responsibility rest on the local authorities to provide the sites?

Mr. Blaney

They have the power, as the Deputy is probably aware. This is a matter of co-ordination and cooperation rather than compulsory acquisition.

Mr. Norton

Will the Minister say if this agency could purchase land acquired by a local authority by means of a c.p.o.?

Mr. Blaney

For the purpose of building houses?

Mr. Norton

Yes.

Mr. Blaney

It can buy the land from the local authority.

Mr. O'Donnell

Surely that would apply only in the case of a derelict site.

Mr. Corish

It may only be a device for compulsory purchase.

Mr. Blaney

It applies generally and not just to derelict sites.

Mr. O'Donnell

The local authority may, therefore, acquire land under a c.p.o. and then sell it to any person——

Mr. Blaney

No.

Mr. O'Donnell

Sell it to this particular company. Is that an ad hoc proviso under the articles?

Mr. Blaney

If I understand the Deputy properly, the answer is "No".

Mr. O'Donnell

Suppose the local authority acquire land under a c.p.o., can they sell that land then to this company?

Mr. Blaney

If it is for housing they can sell the land. Surely the Deputy is quite well aware that one of our most recent efforts vis-à-vis housing authorities was to provide land and develop sites and make them available by lease or sale to any person who wants a house. That includes the operations of this company which will also be building houses.

Mr. Norton

If the persons for whom the houses are to be built on this c.p.o. land are not in the categories normally catered for by local authorities, could the local authority sell the land?

Mr. Blaney

It does not follow that land acquired for housing must have houses built upon it to cater only for priority categories. Surely that is well known.

Question put and agreed to.