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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Dec 1961

Vol. 192 No. 9

Adjournment Debate. - Appointment of Principal of Limerick Technical Institute.

I tabled a Question, No. 78, on 30th November with regard to the filling of a most important position in Limerick Technical Institute and I am not satisfied with the answer I received, particularly when the Minister said: "It came to me in writing, through the official channels, as a unanimous decision."

As a public representative, I have grave responsibilities to my constituents in the city and county of Limerick. Much public attention has been attracted as a result of the Minister's action in this case. The position of principal teacher in a technical institute never existed before in Limerick. It is a position second to that of chief executive officer. When this position was first mooted, it was recommended, according to the official minute of the committee, that it be incorporated on the agenda for the September meeting. When the recommendation was put on the agenda on that occasion the committee proceeded to fill the position without, in the first place, consulting the Department of Education. It was stated and decided at that committee meeting:

The Chairman expressed the view that the procedure being adopted might have repercussions among the staff. He referred to the seniority of service of Mr. John Hersey who had similar status of Graded Teacher as Mr. Clancy.

In reply to queries regarding grading of teachers the C.E.O. said that the Senior Teachers had Grade II status. Promotion beyond this consisted of Grade I Vice-Principal and Principal—depending on the size of the institutes and Schools and the administrative responsibilities involved.

After further discussion: the proposition to appoint Mr. Clancy as Principal of the Municipal Technical Institute was adopted. nem. con.

I have an authority here which disproves the Minister's statement that this appointment was unanimous, and I want to quote him, Sir Walter Citrine. He says that nem. con. means “no one contradicting”. In debate, it means “carried without a count” and not “carried unanimously”. These matters were pointed out to the Minister and the Department of Education. Previously they had received a protest from the organisation of teachers involved because of the principle adopted. Notwithstanding these things, the Minister wrote to the Committee:

I am to refer to your Committee's minutes of the 27th September, 1961, and to the unanimous decision of the Committee therein recorded to appoint Mr. Clancy to the post of Principal of the Municipal Technical Institute, Limerick. The normal procedure in this case would have been that your committee should first have furnished evidence that the creation of a post of Principal was warranted and, should the creation of the post have been approved, applications should have been invited either from teachers already in the service of the Committee or by public advertisement.

Consideration has been given to the need for this new post. Because of the burden of his general duties it is considered that the C.E.O. should be relieved of the responsibility of the duties of Principal of the Technical Institute. Some difficulty, however, arises from the fact that the Committee's present plans will mean a substantial change in the educational activities of the Technical Institute and later developments in the Committee's plans may result in further changes. The present, therefore, does not appear to be the most suitable time to make a fundamental change in the administration of the Technical Institute. However, after giving the fullest consideration to this matter and to the fact that it was the unanimous wish of the Committee to make this appointment, the Department decided to sanction the appointment of Mr. Clancy as Principal of the Technical Institute. In addition to his duties as Principal, Mr. Clancy will also be responsible for the Building Trades Department of the Institute.el

The salary scale will be as follows : £1,123 to £1,468 per annum.

This is a greater salary than the C.E.O. himself receives. I put it to the House that our responsibilities to our constituents, particularly to the students and teachers of Limerick, deserve greater consideration than the Minister has shown in this case. He has flouted all the rules and regulations relating to such an important post. He has refused to recognise the wishes of the organisation of all the teachers concerned and we have in that Institute in Limerick four or five men qualified —some better qualified than the man appointed—to fill this important post. The matter was put on the agenda for discussion and as a result of the discussion, the appointment was made without giving anybody an opportunity of knowing that this principalship was being created or an opportunity of applying for it. I want to air this grave action on the part of the Department of Education which approached this matter in a completely irresponsible way. The blame must lie on the Department which has acted irresponsibly——

The Minister is responsible for the decision.

I am charging the Minister. We have 3,500 students and over 100 teachers in Limerick now faced with an appointment that has not been made with the co-operation of the teachers in Limerick. That has been proved to the Minister. While a committee may make suggestions and pass resolutions, we must remember this: had the committee on that or on any occasion decided they would set fire to the Limerick Technical Institute and it was passed unanimously, does it not follow from what the Minister has said in the letter, he would let them put a match to the place? As a responsible Deputy for Limerick, I protest against the action taken in regard to this appointment, depriving men qualified for this post of an opportunity of applying for it.

Deputy O'Donnell has asked to be allowed to speak on this matter also and I shall give him an opportunity to do so but I want to make this clear. A similar position could arise in Tipperary or Monaghan or Dublin tomorrow and if this is to be the Minister's approach to the education of our children, it is time it was stopped. While I am in this House, I shall see to it that justice and fair play are meted out all round.

I have not very much to add to what has already been said. I should like to say, first of all, that I am convinced the procedure followed in making this appointment was a bad one. Certainly a bad impression has been created among the general public. It has also led to a considerable amount of dissatisfaction among teachers and students in this important educational institution. I am sure the Minister will agree that dissatisfaction among teachers and students in any type of educational institution is a bad thing. No time should be lost in remedying the present situation.

In view of the fact that this was a newly created post, extra care should have been taken in making the appointment. In ordinary circumstances the appointment of a man who has no outstanding qualifications for a post, which has been newly created and which was not advertised, would give rise to suspicion. A certain amount of injustice has been done to the other senior members of the staff since they have been denied the opportunity of even submitting applications. The Minister, if for no other reason except to restore confidence among vocational teachers in general with regard to their prospects of promotion, should take steps to remedy the situation. The post should be re-advertised. That would serve to clear the air and dispel the confusion, the dissatisfaction and the suspicion which have been aroused following the making of this appointment.

To clear the position for Deputies who are not members of committees, I should like to point out that the position of the Minister is one of sanctioning. The committees appoint their own staff. The Minister sanctions the appointment, if he thinks it is necessary, and the appointee, if he is qualified. In these particular circumstances, I was advised by the people appropriate that the post was necessary and that the man who was appointed had all the qualifications. Despite anything that may be said by anybody who does not like him, he was fully qualified for the post.

Nobody said he was not.

That was implied in the suggestion that he had no outstanding qualifications. He had all the qualifications.

Nobody said he had not.

It was suggested. On the question of a protest to the Minister, which Deputy Coughlan said was made by the teachers' organisation concerned, no protest was made to me. No protest was made to any officer of my Department. There was no protest made by the teachers' organisation to the Minister for Education or to any officer of the Department acting for the Minister.

Was the Department not approached by the secretary of the Vocational Teachers' Organisation with regard to the filling of the post?

The Minister might be allowed to reply.

There was no protest about this appointment, either oral or written, to the Department of Education or to me.

What was made?

I shall leave that to the Deputy to guess.

Do not side-step.

The method of making the appointment has been questioned. It is not true to say that the regulations require that the post should be advertised. The memorandum referred to by the Deputy requires that every prospective appointment to a whole-time position should be advertised in the public press. This refers to the ordinary Class III appointments. It was never intended, nor is it the practice, to insist that promotion appointments be so advertised. Paragraph 15 of Memorandum V. 7 states:

"All proposals for promotion or appointment to posts carrying higher scales of salary than those referred to at paragraphs 10 and 12 of this memorandum"

—that is, the scales appropriate to the Class III posts—

"are dealt with by the Minister as they arise. The appropriate qualifications for each such post, the scale of salary and the terms and conditions of appointment will be determined by the Minister having regard to the nature of the appointment."

It is not true, therefore, to say that the regulations require that the post be advertised.

There was, too, a suggestion that other members already employed by the Committee did not get an opportunity to apply. There were five Grade II teachers on the staff of the Municipal Technical Institute when the Committee at their meeting in September decided to appoint Mr. Clancy. The Minutes of that meeting show— indeed the Deputy showed it when he was reading them—that the Chairman brought to the Committee's notice the fact that there were other teachers who should be considered for the appointment.

Not teachers—one teacher.

The Deputy said "one teacher", but it was pointed out at that meeting—the minutes clearly show it—that the Chairman brought to the Committee's notice that there were other teachers who should be considered for the appointment. Other teachers on the staff were qualified. The minutes go on to say:

after further discussion, the proposition to appoint Mr. Clancy as Principal of the Municipal Technical Institute was adopted, nem con.

That is not unanimous.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, is that not always the attitude of a political junta?

There are 15 members on the Committee. Three might be regarded as representing my Party and three as representing the Deputy's Party. So much for the junta.

The Minister is misinformed.

It is very hard, but I try to——

I know the Minister is doing his best.

Order. The Minister should be allowed to do his best.

Has the Minister got a precedent?

The Minister might be allowed to make his statement.

I shall come to the precedent. In relation to a question that was asked last week, the Committee did meet again and did state that the appointment was unanimous. That was reported in all the daily papers yesterday.

I shall give the Minister the papers' reporting. I want the official memorandum where it is described as nem con.

The Deputy might allow the Minister to reply. He is seeking further information and he should allow the Minister to give him that further information.

The point I am making is that, if it was, as was suggested last week, a matter of politics, there were at least three members of the Labour Party on the Committee and one, at least, of the Labour people could have objected.

The Minister is misinformed about the figure "three".

Tell us who they are?

The Parliamentary Secretary knows them as well as I do.

Who proposed Mr. Clancy?

The Labour Party.

The Deputy is denying his own Party.

Far be it from me to deny anybody and far be it from the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy O'Malley, to tell me I am doing so either. Let the Parliamentary Secretary keep off my doorstep.

With the greatest of pleasure. A Labour man proposed Mr. Clancy. The Deputy should not make these charges and indulge in this character-assassination of a decent man like Mr. Clancy.

He helped the Parliamentary Secretary well in all his elections.

That is probably what is wrong with the Deputy. He did not help him.

He was well paid for his help.

The Deputy has already lowered himself in Bord na gCon by trying to character-assassinate Dr. Maguire to whom he should be really grateful and, if the Deputy gets on to Dr. Maguire again in this House, the dirt will come out in relation to what Dr. Maguire did for the Deputy.

We are getting away from the question on the adjournment. Deputies should allow the Minister to make his statement.

Sir, we have gone to the dogs.

The question I raised in my letter to the Committee was that they might have created the post at one meeting and, having received sanction for the post, could have filled it at another meeting.

Quite right.

They were perfectly entitled to do what they did. Appointments as Principal have been made elsewhere—in Dublin City and in Cork City, for example—without advertisement or invitation of applications. If there was a question of making the appointment at some other meeting it is the same Committee which would make the appointment. There is no question of some underhand method of making the appointment. It would be the very same people who would make the appointment anyway. It would be the same Committee.

I do not know if there is any point following what the Deputy said last week that the appointment was a question of the man's political affiliations. My information is that there is a Committee of 15 with three from the Party alluded to by the Deputy. I do not think that anybody could imagine three out of 15 carrying a whole Committee and then getting a new meeting of the Committee to say this was unanimous. The Limerick V.E.C. acted completely within their rights. The man appointed is fully qualified and well qualified. If there is any question of politics involved, it may be that the Deputy is witch-hunting after a man whom he wants to victimise for some other reason.

The Dáil adjourned at 2.15 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday 14th, February, 1962.

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