asked the Minister for Agriculture if a cow, earmarked as in a farmer's herd, which is subsequently sold to a second farmer, will count in computing the numbers in the second farmer's basic herd, for the purposes of the scheme of grants for calved heifers.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Heifer Grant Scheme.
7.
The answer is "yes".
I wonder can the Minister qualify that as there seems to be some confusion. If I have a basic herd of ten cows and I add two heifers and then apply for the grant, I understand an inspector of the Department calls and counts my herd, punches a hole in the ear of each animal and certifies that I now have 12 and I am entitled to a grant of £30 in respect of the two extra. If subsequently a neighbour comes and buys four cows from me, having himself a basic herd of ten and applies to the inspector for a grant of £60 for the four extra heifers he has in his herd, and the inspector comes and finds that four of the extra animals have punches in their ears, is he prepared to count them and concede that the second farmer has now a 14-cow herd?
The applicant in any case will have a basic herd number as shown by the last——
TB test.
——TB test. Let us assume he has ten cows. He purchases, say, four in-calf heifers, or he has four in-calf heifers in his rising stock. He applies for these four as they calve and he receives £15 subsidy on each. These four and the first ten are punched. Now the question arises as to whether after he had earned those four subsidies, any of these punched animals could, if purchased by a neighbour, be regarded as eligible to build up the neighbour's herd from what is was on the date of application for subsidy to what it was shown to have been on his last test. Does the Deputy follow me?
I am getting a bit lost now.
We will have to get a blackboard.
Let us assume his basic herd is ten.
Let us assume that his herd has been reduced by four. He cannot earn any subsidy until he brings his basic herd up to ten. The question was debated very closely by all the organisations when this matter was being discussed with myself and with my officials, as to whether these punched cows could be regarded as animals that would enable him to bring his basic herd up to the number as shown on the last TB test. When we suggested they could not be so regarded, those organisations asked us to review this provision. I must say I was not at any time convinced that it was the right approach and as a result of the reply which I have now given, the scheme will have to be slightly amended. I think it is better to amend it now rather than later because we gave an assurance that we would consider doing so after the first year. I think that will prove to be the fairest although there are arguments on both sides, I admit. Taking them all in all, it is better to approach this for the first year in the way I have now suggested rather than later.
Which means punched cattle will count in the second herd.
Yes, for the purpose of bringing his herd to the basic number as shown in his last TB test.
No further.
No further from the point of view of the scheme.
Would the Minister agree that there will be many situations where a farmer would not draw his subsidy, because if he did and had all the cows punched, and if he was a man who sold cows, in fact it would limit him in his customers to those people who wanted to bring their herd up to basic strength, would discourage customers who wanted to increase their herds and therefore it would pay not to draw the subsidy?
These questions were present to our minds at all times but there were other considerations as well. From the very beginning, I was not fully satisfied with the provision as it was. I had intended to review it later but I have come to the conclusion now that it is better to start on this basis —that since I have power to change the scheme at any time, it is better to start off as now proposed and review it later, if necessary.
Would the Minister not consider going the whole way and letting these cattle stand at basic herd figures?
You could not do it if I understand the Deputy.
Of course you could, provided they were heifers.