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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 15 Jul 1965

Vol. 217 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 3—Department of the Taoiseach.

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.
—(Deputy Cosgrave).

I was dealing earlier with the Taoiseach's appeal for co-operation from this side of the House. He can be assured of that. We will do all we can in the way of constructive criticism and pointing out the right road to him. We did it before but he did not pay much heed to us. That is the reason he is in the position he is in today. We did not get sympathy from Fianna Fáil when we were in trouble. The Taoiseach is no fool. He knew our difficulty.

The Taoiseach and those behind him claim to be patriotic and to have done so much for their country down through the years. According to them, nobody did anything for their country except the people in Fianna Fáil. Nobody else fired a shot or got a wound. I do not subscribe to that at all. I am old enough to remember that much of that eyewash was put across by Fianna Fáil spokesmen and by their tied newspaper, the Irish Press. That is understandable when you have Deputy de Valera behind the scenes planning the programme. He walks in and out of here, occasionally whispering into a Minister's ear to find out what is going on, then goes back to the office and gets out this propaganda in the Irish Press. It is difficult to counteract that, because these people are geniuses as far as propaganda is concerned, but we have done our best. They will not get many Irish people to swallow that kind of tripe.

There are men on this side of the House whose contribution to Ireland was far greater than anything they ever did. One of those people is a man often attacked in this House, Deputy Dillon. He does not need me to defend him. Long before the Lemasses and de Valeras were heard of, his forebears worked in the interests of the Irish people and risked their lives for them at a time when they had to have police protection. We can read between the lines of the history books.

As far as the appeal to our patriotism is concerned, let us all get behind this in this time of difficulty, give constructive criticism and point out the right road to the Government. We all have a stake in the country— our families, our friends and neighbours. I pointed out this morning that my neighbourhood was denuded of people and houses were closed down. It is sad to see that happening. All of us like to return to our homes and see our wives and children. According to the Taoiseach's statement, the prospect for them, as we move on, is the prospect that faced our fathers—the emigrant ship and life in a foreign land. We are sorry to see that the Taoiseach has so mishandled the affairs of the country that he has to appeal to us for co-operation, but he will have that co-operation. If he had to appeal to the Irish people to-morrow in an emergency to join the Army or anything else, they would stand behind him. I can assure him they have not lost their patriotism. They are just as patriotic as anybody in Fianna Fáil.

I said before in this House that from the day Fianna Fáil took over this country, I was convinced they travelled along the wrong road, down through the years, because nobody would deny, going back 40 or even 100 years or more, that the basic industry of this country has always been agriculture and on it nearly everything else depended. Tourism and other industries have sprung up in recent years but it should be remembered that agriculture is the basic industry. Nobody has pointed this out more often than Deputy Dillon, the man who every day of the week is attacked and abused in this House.

If the Taoiseach would like to hear them, I have some suggestions to make in regard to getting the country back on its feet again. We badly need a lot more technical advice for our farmers. I never believed in throwing money about freely by way of subsidy or otherwise and taking them by and large the rural population do not believe in free money either. They prefer to work for it. This Government did away with the scheme initiated by the inter-Party Government under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. I well remember as a member of Mayo County Council that sums in excess of £80,000 were sent to us from Dublin so that we might carry out minor drainage schemes. The scheme was broken into two parts, Section A and Section B. Section A dealt with land drainage and Section B with bog roads, accommodation roads and other roads for farmers. It meant that we could relieve the flooding problems which existed in our county. Indeed, a similar problem existed all over the country and millions of pounds were made available at the time to cope with this problem. However, I am speaking about the problem in my county because I am conversant with it.

The scheme had a double advantage because it made it possible for groups of farmers to have their lands drained, if necessary at a slack time of the year when they could go out and work on those minor drainage schemes and thus supplement their meagre incomes from their uneconomic holdings. In those years, it was not necessary for such a small farmer to migrate to England and these men were able to remain with their wives and children and be happy in their homes. The scheme could be undertaken at a slack period when the potatoes had been dug and crops harvested and the money was then made available for those people and was of great benefit to them and to the economy of the country.

That scheme was scrapped. It was an inter-Party scheme and therefore it could not be right. I regret to say that there is too much of that mentality in Fianna Fáil. I would not care a fiddle-de-dee if the Taoiseach or anybody in his Government put forward some sensible proposals for improving the lot of the people. I would be glad to support them. Indeed, I would have a moral obligation to do so, and if I did not, I would soon know what the people thought. These people who are travelling over and back to England are highly intelligent. They can read between the lines; they know if a man is doing his duty in this House and trying to do his best.

There is also the Land Project initiated by Deputy Dillon when he was Minister for Agriculture. This scheme was again divided into Section A and Section B. Thousands of acres were reclaimed under that scheme. Let me explain for the benefit of those who may not know that Section A was a scheme whereby a farmer got not more than £30 per acre for every acre of land he reclaimed, subject of course to inspection and approval by the local agricultural officer. The land was inspected when the application went in and he was told to go ahead and told the amount of money he would get. A total of £25 was provided for the actual work on the land and £5 was provided for lime and fertilisers.

I think the Deputy is becoming involved in the details of the Land Project. Discussion of this Vote should be more on general principles.

As I have been critical of the Taoiseach and the Government and pointed out the many mistakes I thought they made down through the years, I felt that if I made some brief suggestions, the Taoiseach, even at this eleventh hour, might follow a line of policy to get the country out of its difficulties. I have said that he has neglected agriculture and has not given it the help and assistance it requires. The proof of this is that the people are leaving the land. I am trying to point out these things as best I can from my knowledge and experience. I had to be experienced in these matters because my livelihood depended on it. I am most anxious to help the Taoiseach and I do not think I am being out of line when I make these suggestions.

May I finally say that I am proud of the record which this country has in regard to forestry. We have a proud record in forestry but there is a lot more to be done. It is not just the inter-Party Minister alone, a colleague of mine, who made that possible. Successive Fianna Fáil Ministers have done the best they could to improve the position as regards forestry. I sincerely hope that line will be pursued.

Finally, I want to say there is no better way at present of helping this country out of its difficulties than trying to help the main industry of the country, agriculture. It might be suggested that I have a very strong rural bias, that I am all for the farmers and I do not care a hang about anybody else. That is not so. I have spent quite a lot of my life around this city. For nine or ten years, I lived here three or four days a week. I have done business from Moore Street to Camden Street and Wexford Street and I know well how the people live here. I have spent days around the North Wall and the docks. I have worked with dockers and I know how they live. I understand their problems. Those people, as far as I am concerned, are the salt of the earth, a really wonderful people.

Those people have to put up with difficulties which I fully understand. They have housing problems. Many of them are short of food when they are unemployed. Their problems are much more serious than the problems of the people with small holdings of land. The people with small holdings have something when things are bad. They have a few eggs and they also have milk. In this city there is a housing shortage and much unemployment. This is likely to get worse, according to the Taoiseach. Therefore, those people have my sympathy. I believe if we can build our economy around the main industry of this country, the problems that confront us today will be got over, if we have better management and a more central approach than we have had in the past. We will get over those difficulties if we have a more central approach than the Fianna Fáil people have had to those problems all down the years.

Now that the Taoiseach has come back again, I want to say something which I regret having to say because he is a man who many of the people consider has the ability to do great things for them. I know he is a man who has tried to improve the lot of the people. I deplore the fact that he has so misled the people. He has made so many pronouncements in several places, whether they be dinners, dog fights or jamborees, as another Deputy said, that I am afraid the Irish people will be inclined to take them with a grain of salt. They will say this man said such and such a thing; he appealed to us to let him lead on and said there was nothing wrong with the economy of the country. When he gets back to this House, he gets control again and is like the fox after the hen or the cock. He strolled into the House when he thought we were going on holidays and he said he would explode the whole thing now. The newspapers are out of circulation and the people will not get the news. I regret the Taoiseach has stooped to such low tactics.

I have listened very attentively to the last speaker and to other speakers during the last few days. I was rather disappointed with the unconstructive approach to a national problem by so many speakers from whom I expected more, particularly those on the other side of the House. This is a time when we, on this side of the House, are facing up to the problems we have to deal with. The real difference between the Fianna Fáil Government and the inter-party Government is that when the inter-Party Government had a problem to deal with, though they did not need to go to the country at that time, they rushed out. The Government broke up. They left us with an unbalanced Budget, an adverse balance of payments and debts all over the place.

They have told us now that we have treated them dishonestly and that we waited until after the election. Such is not true. The Taoiseach has put the facts to the Irish people as any honest to God Taoiseach should do. He would have failed completely as a national leader if he had not done so. It is no pleasure to the Taoiseach, as leader of our Party, to have to introduce any Price Control Bill or a Bill providing for any restriction whatever, but it is his national duty to see that the economy is put right.

I have sufficent faith in the Irish people to know they will back the Taoiseach in the national stand he has taken. We are not concerned with the small things that come along day after day; we are concerned with a major issue. The major issue is that if we are not able to control our balance of payments, we are in the same position as the farmer or the businessman. The farmer cannot live unless he sells his products and the businessman cannot live unless he sells what he has in his shop.

There are certain things which have happened which are beyond our control. The 15 per cent tax put on by Great Britain on all goods going into that country was a very severe blow to our economy here. The Taoiseach and his Government tried to meet that position by going over to the British Prime Minister and discussing the matter with him at that time. What more could the Taoiseach do when we have diplomatic connections with that country or any country? All you can do is to go over to them and reason or argue with them. That had to be done on behalf of the Irish people and the Irish people should remember that.

I do not want to delay this House because long, rambling speeches have been made over the past couple of days. I appeal for the co-operation of the nationally-minded people of Ireland, who never failed to answer an appeal when they were told the truth. During the Emergency, during 1916 and all along, the Irish people were behind a cause which was worthy of their support. I feel, on this occasion, the Irish people will rally behind the Taoiseach and the Fianna Fáil Government because in doing that they will be doing something for themselves and for their children.

The Opposition could damage this country if they overplayed their hands by saying this country is going down and I appeal to them not to do so. This country is not going down. Even the great United States has had to curb the spending power of her citizens going abroad and other countries have had to have a look at their housekeeping from time to time. The resources of some of those countries are a good deal more powerful than ours. As far as the Government can, they will remedy the present situation and we should lend our efforts to that because it is for the good of the country.

People on the other side of the House have been alleging that we did not help the farming section of the community. That is completely untrue. This Party bent backwards to help the agricultural side of the economy. So far as we could, within the natural resources of the country, we helped the farmers, big and small. I hate a person who is always depending on someone else. The people of Ireland have always stood up to adversity. During the Famine, the people of Ireland rallied to the cause and at that time they had no Government protection. I believe the people will do things for themselves and for their children. They have always done so in the most adverse circumstances. We have always been concerned for the wellbeing of every section of the community, and we have always been anxious to see that our children got better education to enable them to take their place in any part of the world if they have to leave the country. We were always anxious to provide better housing. We made an all-out effort to provide better roads, better drainage facilities, land reclamation, better facilities for selling our agricultural production, better facilities for fishing, and everything else that can be mentioned.

If a temporary brake has to be put on to aid the economy, those who are interested in the national wellbeing should not overplay it and say we are going down. We are not going down because, so far as I can see, our country was never more solvent. We want to encourage people with money to come in and invest here, and we have given them every encouragement. We want more Irish people to invest their money in Ireland and to have faith in the Ireland that belongs to the citizens of this country. We want them to contribute to the wellbeing of the nation of their forefathers.

Travelling through Israel last year, I was amazed by the progress that had been made by the Jews, and at the amount of development that had been carried on, and the amount of money that had been subscribed by Jews all over the world. Theirs is a small country and they were up against it at the beginning. The Jews all over the world showed great loyalty towards one another, and they rallied behind the State of Israel. Travelling through that country. I saw the amount of irrigation and the amount of development — 6,000,000 acres of forestry planted from 1949 to 1964—that had taken place.

I have no doubt that Irish people abroad will rally round and that this country will go ahead in the way everyone would wish to see it go. I sincerely hope that our people will rally behind us. I do not want to go into details because I do not want to delay the House. I am dealing solely with the economic side of our affairs and I am appealing to the nationally-minded people of our nation to rally behind us. I believe our own kith and kin in other countries will have the courage to do for this country what the Jews have done for theirs.

We are standing up to the responsibility of government. As a Party, we will not run away. As I said at the outset, the real difference between a Fianna Fáil Government and an inter-Party Government is that the Fianna Fáil Government stand up to their responsibilities and are honest with the Irish people. We have succeeded in improving the standard of living of our people in every walk of life, and we have created employment for thousands and thousands of our people. In 1956-57 the inter-Party Government ran away from their responsibilities, and the tragic thing was that the leaders of that national Government, or inter-Party Government, or Coalition Government, or whatever we call it, is that they did not mind leaving office when the country was completely on the rocks. I should have thought there would have been enough national feeling in them to try to do something for the nation, but they rushed out to a general election. If there were no national Party, concerned for the welfare of every section of the community, to take over, what would the position have been?

Now those people are talking about the food subsidies. We had to swallow a bitter pill in 1952 when we had to introduce the 1952 Budget to rectify the national financial position.

(Cavan): The people are being asked to swallow a bitter pill now.

I am really surprised at Deputy Fitzpatrick. I expected a little more from him. I thought he was a conscientious Deputy who would face up to the problems.(Interruptions.)

When we hear a cheap jibe from Deputy Fitzpatrick, a cultured and kindly man, what can we expect from the remainder of those people? One would imagine that he would have had a constructive contribution to make. Do not talk of 1956.

What about 1965 and 1966?

In 1956 there was no money for anything.

Where is it now?

The inter-Party Government cleared out.

(Cavan): I think the Deputy must not have heard the Taoiseach's speech.

(Interruptions.)

The Deputy should be allowed to make his speech.

I am grateful to the Deputy for encouraging me to keep going.

I will stop, so.

The Deputy is best under pressure.

There was no money for anything. They were hardly able to pay the old age pensioners. As I said on the Housing Bill the other day, there was hardly a bag of cement left, or the price of it.

How many times did the Deputy say that?

There were no loans for houses. There were about 1,800 houses vacant in the Dublin Corporation area.

There were 1,800 in 1959 when the Deputy's Party were in office. There were 800 vacant in 1957. The Deputy should check his figures.

That was the position in which we found ourselves. I am sorry the Deputy does not like the facts. I am making a statement of the facts.

That is not a statement of the facts.

Builders' labourers had to clear out and a bank manager would not give you twopence.

He would give you less now.

He would not give you a halfpenny now.

The Deputy must be allowed to make his speech.

I will give the palm for a brazen front to the Deputy who is interrupting me. He would make black into white if he got the opportunity. All I have to say in conclusion is that we have faced our responsibilities as a Party and that we expect the Irish people to co-operate with us in our effort.

I should like to say a few words on the Prices Bill and on the Taoiseach's speech. The Labour Party have supported the Bill and have advocated for a long time that we should have price control in the interests of the working people. We will suggest amendments to the Bill to the effect that orders made under it should continue for 12 months instead of for six and we think that effective machinery should be brought into operation to have full investigation of proposed price increases.

Manufacturers, before seeking increases in prices, should notify the Department of this intention in order that their claims may be investigated. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has said on many occasions that he has had no complaints about price increases. If the system I suggest were to operate, it would make the Minister aware of increases which were about to take place. The Labour Party also believe that a public inquiry should be held into proposed price increases in the same way as the Labour Court holds public sittings to investigate applications for wage increases.

With regard to the emergency situation of which the Taoiseach speaks, and indeed there is one, I believe that it was brought to his attention on several occasions during the past few months but the Government have become acutely aware of it only now. Deputies have referred to the credit squeeze and the Minister for Local Government has denied that there is one. Bank lending for the first five months of this year has increased by £23 million as compared with £10 million in the first five months of last year. The Taoiseach says that the greater portion of this has been in the Government sector. Will the Taoiseach state the amount of bank lending in the private sector and compare this with the amount in the private sector for 1964? If he gives us these figures, we will have an indication of the credit squeeze now in operation which is paralysing the country in regard to housing and smaller industries.

We believe that the National Wage Agreement will collapse long before the time it is due to expire, for the simple reason that the Government refused to introduce price control when the agreement came into operation. The Government violated the agreement by giving status increases to civil servants and we believe that these civil servants have salaries far in excess of what they should have. The Government should be the first people to take action and should secure economies in their own Departments. The workers feel aggrieved that this gap has been created between their earnings and those of the civil servants and the Government's decision to grant status increases to civil servants is a major cause of the industrial unrest in the country at the moment. The Government have ignored that situation.

In regard to the deficit in the balance of payments, it has frequently been brought to the attention of the Minister for Industry and Commerce that a ludicrous situation existed with regard to Communist countries to which we were exporting only £1,200,000 worth of goods while they were sending us goods to the value of almost £6 million. When I referred to this, the Minister was either indifferent or unaware of the situation. He said that it would be kept under review and that there was no need to worry as the margin against us was only four to one. The Government should tackle this problem.

The Second Programme for Economic Expansion is talked about in Government circles but it is never brought down to the level of the workers. The worker is unaware of what is expected of him. No effort was made to make these proposals known to the workers and we cannot get their co-operation unless the whole matter is brought directly to their attention.

The Taoiseach's speech would seem to imply that there is to be no improvement in the health services in this country. He sounded the death knell of any radical changes in the health services. This was very different from what the Minister for Health said when this young Lochinvar came into this House and said he would have radical changes within a few months. I anticipated this when the Minister spoke at the Irish Medical Association dinner. I noticed that he had been got at and that his plans had been watered down from the speech he made there. It was entirely the opposite of what he had said on a few occasions here.

The Taoiseach's speech would also seem to imply that there is to be a falling off in the building of houses. This is a very sore point with our people. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce spoke yesterday about the bringing home of skilled workers from England but unless we have houses for them, we cannot ask them to come home. A tremendous number of them are going abroad because of the grave situation with regard to housing here and no effort is being made by the Government to solve that problem. They look for the co-operation and support of the people for their various projects but they will not make any effort to help the people.

I have been appalled at the inconsistency of the present Government. I do not want to be over-critical and the policy of the Labour Party is one of constructive criticism, but the indifference being shown by the Government is not good enough. The Government should set a good example by keeping themselves aware of the situation. They have lost contact with the people and are not aware of what is going on. Until they become aware of the situation generally, they cannot have any proper policy. At the moment their policy varies from day to day. All they can do is come out with measures which are intended to make matters worse for the workers.

The Government will have to make sure that more work is done in Government Departments and that there is less wasteful extravagance. They should let us know the amount of lending by the banks to the private sector of industry and we should not have the extravagance with regard to grants given to different companies. When these grants are lost, such as the £341,000 lost on the GEC factory in Dundalk, and when we ask a question as to what moneys will be retrieved, we are told it is not the concern of the House and it is not in the interests of the public that this matter should be known. That is wrong. It is over £? million and it is one instance of the terrible extravagance of the Government.

The Government seem to be like a housewife living beyond her means and when she lives beyond her means and gets into debt, I know that in Dublin city the corporation has no mercy and evict her. This happens every day. The Government should look upon the situation in that they themselves must economise and they must not produce plans which will not succeed. There should be more foresight on the part of the Government if we are to achieve anything in this country. The Labour Party will offer constructive criticism and will co-operate with the Government in every way, but they must not be sneered at when they put forward proposals for price control. Every effort was made by the Government to call this by every other name than price control.

On matters of buy Irish, I might point out that the Government should set an example. I shall just give one example of the Government cars which are not assembled in this country, but are imported from abroad. How can the ordinary people co-operate with a Buy Irish campaign when this is so?

That is not true. I say straight away it is not true.

These cars are not assembled here.

They are assembled here. Every car purchased is assembled here.

Would the Taoiseach not think that it would be in the interests of the public if the Government cars were not such lavish cars and that we should have cars of proper size and proper price in this country? We cannot have the extravagance for the Government and then preach to the people that we must have economy in every household. The householders are not living in the lap of luxury. They are barely making ends meet, and the Taoiseach is asking them to economise further and thereby live in hair shirts. This is a policy the Taoiseach proposes for which he does not set an example.

The Minister for Transport and Power mentioned that with wages going up 12 per cent, naturally we must have prices going up. But the ninth round increases were sought because prices had gone up. These increases were granted to cope with the situation in which the cost of living had gone up. Now we have a situation in which wages are constantly chasing the cost of living. As the situation is at present, wages will never catch up with the high cost of living obtaining at the moment.

The 2½ per cent turnover tax imposed by the Government has been abused by traders and no effort has been made by the Government to see that it was an equitable tax. Two and a half per cent turnover tax was the figure, but in actual fact up to ten per cent increases were charged by traders and manufacturers. Any effect this would have is nullified when you have people abusing the system as it exists at the moment. A proper system, properly formulated, would have secured the support of the people and there would not have been the antagonism there is towards the tax.

The Government should consider very seriously looking at the situation in regard to housing as an emergency situation and every effort should be made to cope with it. In Dublin city alone, we have mixed families sleeping in one room. I know of many cases where 25 people are living in one house with two bedrooms. This is not an isolated case. Many such cases exist and newly-married couples cannot hope to be accommodated within the next four or five years. Is it any wonder that these people show indifference towards appeals by the Government for co-operation with regard to our present emergency situation, an emergency it now is, no matter how euphemistically the Government may try to style it.

This is rather an ironic debate. We are discussing appeals by the Taoiseach and the Government to the people of Ireland to tighten their belts, to cut out unnecessary expenditure and not to spend money on luxuries. This comes nine days after the biggest international debauch this country has ever experienced or run for the benefit of the well-to-do in Europe and elsewhere, and this was run by a subsidy of £10,000 to Bord Fáilte.

This is not a matter for discussion on the Taoiseach's Estimate. The Taoiseach is not responsible for Bord Fáilte.

The Government have persistently for several months past refused to give frank answers to Parliamentary Questions. I wish to take up this question of the failure of the Government to fulfil the time-honoured practice of democratic parliament by giving information in their possession in reply to Parliamentary Questions. Last week we were told by the Minister for Transport and Power that he did not have in his Department any information as to the amount paid by Bord Fáilte for the running of this international debauch.

The Taoiseach is not responsible for the administration of each Department. These are matters which can more elevantly be raised at another time.

When the Taoiseach is asking everybody in the country not to spend money on washing machines, on electric irons and on the ordinary things that help every housewife to make life easier for herself and her children, it is up to him to see that State-sponsored bodies do not spend excessively when we run functions in the name of charity.

The Taoiseach's Department is not responsible for the item mentioned by the Deputy.

He is, if he expects people to listen to his appeals. The Taoiseach has a responsibility for the spending of money by State-sponsored bodies.

That is not relevant.

The first thing the Taoiseach should do is put his own affairs in order. Notwithstanding the newspaper strike——

It does not arise on the Estimate. It is not a matter for the Estimate.

(Cavan): It is a matter of Government policy.

Surely how money is spent is a matter of Government policy. We are entitled to see that no money is contributed unless there is a positive certainty that benefit will accrue from it. It is hard to see how money of that kind will produce anything commensurate with the amount paid for it or how, in the knowledge that that is being done by Government agents, people are expected to listen to the appeals of the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach is also asking people to tighten their belts, with the exception of the chosen hierarchy of the Civil Service. One might fairly wonder why these privileged few in the community who have salaries of £3,000 to £4,000 find it necessary to apply for, and get for the asking increases of 20 per cent and more. I shall give the House and the country the answer. In March of this year, the Taoiseach wrote a letter to every high-ranking civil servant, and I have in my hand one such letter addressed by him to a civil servant, not in his home but in his office, in a Government office here in town. This letter reads:

FIANNA FÁIL

13, Upper Mount Street,

Dublin, 2.

March, 1965.

Dear Sir,

The decision to call a General Election now was unavoidable. It would not have been helpful to the National development campaign to have a protracted period of political uncertainty. This would have been prejudicial to all progress and had a dampening effect on the entire economy.

The Taoiseach continued in his letter to the civil servant:

I believe that the great majority of our people want to see the present Government continue in office, so that the progress which is at present under way may be continued and expanded. But this general desire must be translated into a majority in the ballot boxes. This can only be done by an effective, all-out election campaign by the Fianna Fáil organisation in every constituency.

Then the Taoiseach says to civil servants who are supposed to be neutral and above politics:

I am appealing to you to help us finance such a campaign. I think you can regard any contribution you make—and I hope you will make as generous a one as you possibly can —as an investment in the future welfare of our nation.

He then asked for the subscription to be sent to himself personally. It is a new depth in political activity when the Taoiseach writes a letter to senior civil servants asking them to send to him personally their subscriptions to keep him in political office. When the people want to know why certain people have now got a 20 per cent increase on salaries already £4,000, there is the answer. I want to know how much was paid by these civil servants who were impliedly threatened by the Taoiseach with this letter in contributions to that Party's funds.

What is the truth about the Taoiseach's approach to that election? He did not expect to win it; he did not want to win it. In January of this year, he was forecasting a difficult year in 1965. Within a matter of months, when the political climate had somewhat changed for the purpose of an election, he forgot about the difficulties that lay ahead. He was not going to be a bit alarmed if he were defeated in that election, but he wanted to be in a position sufficiently strong and sufficiently near the Government strength as to enable him to harass and embarrass them and, having left them with this rotten economic situation we have at the present time, precipitate a general election and then accuse the Government who replaced him of being responsible for the mess in which he had left the country. That is the real truth, the only truth and the one that we are going to rub into him no matter how much he whimpers and appeals to us not to do it.

The Taoiseach says that this is no time to apportion blame. You do not apportion blame when only one person holds the blame. To apportion blame assumes that the blame needs to be spread over different people, but that is not so and Fianna Fáil would not have it so. We remember the big orange circle that emblazoned every hoarding and was suspended from every lamp post some months ago, and some of which are still there, bearing the legend "Let Lemass-Lead On"—not "Let Fianna Fáil Lead On", not "Let the People Of Ireland Lead On" but "Let Lemass Lead On" because they claimed, and he claimed, that he alone was responsible for everything in the country. He was providing the leadership, he and he alone—that is what the orange balloon said with the legend "Let Lemass Lead On". Now the balloon has come down to earth and has burst. We heard the last squelching air and condensed spittle here in the past few days as this deflated orange balloon "Let Lemass Lead On" came to earth with a flop.

What have we now to look at? Despair. Everybody is to do something but not the Government. Everybody is to tighten his belt. Everybody is to stop spending money but not the Government. Or, if the Government do it, we, as the watchdogs of the people, may not criticise them here in this House. Then people are asked to expect that democracy is working in this country when the Government are above reproach, when the civil servants, who have become the plaything of Fianna Fáil, are above reproach, when State-sponsored bodies are above reproach. The only people to be blamed are the ordinary people who try to make ends meet and who, when they find it difficult to do so, try to secure an improvement in their income. The Party opposite are the people to be blamed if the country is in a mess at present. If the country is in a mess, the people have, so Fianna Fáil boast, been led by Lemass. He asked them to vote for him so that he could lead them again. If the country has followed the wrong path, it is because they followed that orange balloon.

The Taoiseach told us, in all the election addresses published by the Fianna Fáil apostles in the election, that the reason for the general election at that time was to prevent a delay which would prejudice the country's development prospects. He said that the main task of the new Government would be to maintain the momentum of the country's economic progress. Here we are, three months later, witnessing the failure of the Government to fulfil what they considered to be their main task—the maintenance of the momentum of the economic progress of the country. At the same time as they do this, they appeal to everybody else in the country, bar themselves, to help them to build up the momentum once again. I find it hard to accept the good faith of any head of a Government who approaches the people in that particular way.

The Taoiseach must accept all the criticism which now can so deservedly be laid at his door. As other Deputies have said, it is despicable in the extreme that all this wailing and moaning was left to the last few days of this session of the Dáil. We had the Budget a few months ago. If that Budget was notable for anything it was for its entire failure to do anything to solve the economic difficulties which were then so obviously facing this country. Why were the steps not taken then, it is fair to ask. The reason is that the Government did not wish to be subjected to criticism from this side of the House.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce, in introducing the Estimate for his Department, had a brief which ran to 23 columns of the Official Report. The amount which he devoted to prices in that particular contribution of his runs to something less than three-quarters of a column. Even when he does mention the subject and gives it only a passing reference, he states that he is satisfied that the workings of the 1958 Prices Act have kept the situation in control and that no further action on his part is required.

In my constituency, the Fianna Fáil Party standard-bearers, one of whom is the son of the Taoiseach, spoke about the Fianna Fáil years of Government as being full of change. This is the kind of change they talk about. Two months ago there was no need for additional price control. As far as prices were concerned, everything was rosy and perfect. Now, there is a total change and there is need to bring in this new restrictive Prices Bill. It is in now and is before us for consideration. We in Fine Gael are not going to withhold from the Government any powers so obviously necessary to prevent any further rise in the spiral of prices.

We do not believe a Bill of this kind can solve the difficulty of the price structure in this or any other country. The OECD have pointed out that our economy is like the economies of Holland, Belgium and Norway, and such that it would be relatively easy to have a broadly-based incomes policy here. Our failure has been the way in which the present administration has sought to divorce incomes and prices, to divorce costs and prices. Every price contains an element of income. It is just as important to control the amount of income in any price as it is to endeavour to have some form of agreement for wages and salaries. There have been periods here in which workers have been limited to eight per cent increases in wages and, at the same time, profit margins have increased as much as 46 per cent. How can you expect the person drawing a wage or salary of a known figure every week to accept the bona fides of a Government who make no effort to control incomes except the incomes of wages and salary earners?

To speak in this way is not to speak against the entrepreneurs who contribute their skill and capital for the development of industry and commerce and agriculture. To speak in this way is to speak rationally. It is to say that in a country endeavouring to plan the pace of economic progress and the pace of capital investment, in a society planning an increased growth of improvement in social services, we are only codding ourselves if we do not at the same time plan for an agreed and steady rate of income increases. Because we have failed to do this, as other countries have done it, we have the worst spiral of price increases in recent years in all Europe. That is the situation for which the Taoiseach, who wants us to believe he has led us and wishes still to lead us, is entirely responsible.

We criticise this crisis measure because it is not creative. What we need is a creative prices policy, a creative incomes policy and a creative economic policy, so that all these things will dovetail into one another and that we do not try to run them, as we have in the past, in entirely separate Departments.

The Taoiseach said the present scale of prices was a symptom and not a cause of our economic difficulties. I certainly would not agree with him there, and I think many economists would not agree with him. Prices are a substantial contributory factor to our present economic difficulties. They certainly have not helped us to expand our exports to meet our increased imports. The difference between now and any financial difficulties that existed seven years ago is this: our difficulties at present arise in the main from internal causes, whereas those of seven years ago arose because of causes as remote as the Argentine and Suez. Therefore, if we are to assess, in discharge of our democratic duty, who is to blame for the present situation, that blame must fall on the present Government and in particular on the man who boasted he would lead the country and got a mandate from the country only a few months ago to lead them in the future.

On this question of prices, I should like to hear from the Taoiseach and the Government exactly how they propose to control the prices of foodstuffs and other items to be found on the shelves of any grocer's shop, be it a supermarket or a one-man business. There are several disparities in the prices at which retailers can purchase goods from manufacturers and importers. Some foreign-based supermarkets have been able to arrange to buy commodities at prices which are 20, 30 or even 40 per cent cheaper than that at which the same commodities are made available to other people. If it is possible for manufacturers and importers to make commodities available at those low prices to foreign enterprises that have come in here, one would hope the Government would see to it that the same commodities are made available at similar prices to Irish retailers.

I can illustrate this by an example. Some time ago we had the rather Gilbertian situation of a supermarket in a street in Dublin offering bottles of salad cream at 10½d., while across the road in the same street we had another store which is also one of a chain of shops, offering the same bottles of salad cream at 11d. The second chain was able to inform the public—I have seen the proof of this —that they were selling the salad cream at the price at which they purchased it, to wit, 11d. per bottle but their competitors were able to sell it at 10½d. because it was sold to them at 9d. per bottle. How can we try to regulate prices in a Bill such as this if we have such a variation at the very start of the prices cycle?

That is why we feel this Bill is not going to solve the prices problem in the way so necessary at present. It is mainly a permissive Bill, and it is up to the Government to prove it can be worked. It is no more that a red herring. Perhaps it is a bribe to try to persuade the wage earners to stand back and not look for any increases because the Government are now making an effort to peg prices. I believe it will crumble in their hands if they try to work it, because I do not think it is suited to our conditions at present.

We are extremely alarmed by the Government's announcement of further credit restrictions. We did not think it was possible to restrict credit any further. We are aware that for the past eight or nine months the Government have been denying in the House that there has been credit restriction. We have had this subterfuge of refusing to answer Dáil questions used to prevent the Government giving an admission to the country that there is serious credit restriction. It was only within the past couple of weeks we had an admission that there is credit restriction. Not only is there credit restriction but it is credit restriction as a result of direction from the Government. They thought they were getting away with it. A certain amount of blame was attached to the banks and, in particular, to individual bank managers. Now everybody knows, as we continually remind them, that this credit restriction is the result of a direction from the Government that it should be imposed. Deputy Burke said that some years ago a person could not get twopence from a bank manager. He would not get twopence today; he would not get anything. The bank manager would almost take the twopence from his pocket before he left the bank.

There are many long-established respectable business, family concerns that for as long as they can remember have had overdraft arrangements in order to cover stock and other recurring expenses of that kind. All these long-established, respectable businesses have security many times in excess of the limit of their overdraft. As the years have gone by, the value of their security has increased because of increases in prices in the property market. Despite that, many of these concerns have been told in the past six months that they must reduce their overdraft and those who have not reduced them have been prevented from writing cheques on the banks where they and their ancestors have been customers for decades past.

Deputy Burke complained that utterances from this side of the House might damage the reputation of this country abroad in financial circles. Nothing could be so damaging to the reputation of this country in international commercial circles than the inability of traders to pay for goods they purchased. That has happened, and there are several traders and importing agencies in serious difficulties and have already been threatened with or have had instituted against them legal proceedings for non-payment. The reason they have not been able to pay is that the overdrafts which they had assumed would be left to them as in the past have been withdrawn and they have not been able to pay for goods purchased many months ago. The result is that they have lost the trade discounts to which they were entitled and always got by making prompt payment. Now they have to pay more for these goods and this in turn is going to inject new increased costs into the distributive trade.

We pressed the Minister's colleague, the Minister for Finance, on this matter within the past month and he said he was not aware of it. Then, under pressure, he said he had heard complaints about it and that he would inquire into it. He conceded reluctantly that it was undesirable, but notwithstanding that, instead of doing something to improve the situation, we have the Taoiseach coming in and saying that not only is that situation to be allowed to continue but that he is going to turn the screws even tighter. The inevitable result will be a series of bankruptcies and failures in business over the next year. One is concerned about the ultimate result. Already there has been an undesirable injection into the distributive trade by foreign concerns, who have invested their money here in chains of supermarkets and other forms of retail outlets, and as a result have damaged long-established retailers who have given good service to the community in which they were born and in which they had a stake.

If the result of all this activity of curtailing credit is to be the ruination of Irish businesses which are to be bought out by people who are able to bring money from abroad, where there is no restriction, our distribution trade will pass into hands which are not Irish. This would be an extremely undesirable development. We have been told that there are to be new hire purchase restrictions. Already in my constituency, where probably more cars are assembled than in any other constituency, we have had an amount of under-employment and disemployment in the motor car industry. I was disappointed to hear my colleague from Dublin South-West, Deputy Dr. O'Connell, speaking about the Mercedes cars and not being aware that they were assembled in his constituency. Perhaps Deputy Norton could draw his attention to this.

Perhaps he is not as well acquainted with Mr. O'Flaherty as the Deputy.

No, I have no close association with him, but if one passes up and down the Naas road——

I do myself.

I am sure the Deputy does. Just a stone's throw from Deputy Dr. O'Connell's residence, he will find the Mercedes works, and I am quite certain if he asked for an opportunity to visit the factory he would be afforded the opportunity to do so. In Dublin South-West they also assemble the Volkswagen, the DKW, the Morris, the Standard and the Triumph and on the borders there is the Booth Poole works where the Wolseley and other cars are assembled. Most of the people employed in this industry come from my constituency, many of them my friends, and many of them concerned about the trend in the industry.

The inevitable result of this new restriction will be redundancy in the industry. This is coming at an extremely bad time. One recalls the investigations into the motor assembly industry, in relation to our possible entry into the Common Market, when it was pointed out how vulnerable an industry it was. Notwithstanding the difficulties facing them, some of the people in the industry have shown commendable courage and there has been a considerable amount of capital invested in it. The result of this will be that we will have capital machinery and buildings lying idle in Dublin and other places. That will happen in a matter of weeks, and has already happened to some extent. The Austin concern is shortly to move into my constituency, again part of this increased capital investment in the industry. One is appalled to think of the future that faces them if this restriction is to be permitted to continue.

My information from bank managers is that the credit squeeze is going to last not for six months or 12 months but for three years. That is the minimum period quoted to me, but some bank managers have gone as far as to say it will be five years. The result of that will be mass unemployment. We in Fine Gael will not stand for any deflation which will cause unemployment. We believe that the greatest asset this country has is its labour force and that in no circumstances should that force be permitted to run down. That is why we have appealed to the Government for measures other than those which will bring about redundancy in several industries.

We have already had the sad experience of the large GEC works in Dundalk closing down. Fortunately, they have been able to continue manufacturing electrical equipment in the Dunleer works but the inevitable effect of greater hire purchase restrictions on domestic electric appliances and non-domestic electric appliances will be a further amount of redundancy in the electrical goods industry here. Unfortunately, this is only the beginning and there are several other industries which have already been affected by this credit squeeze and none more than the building industry.

It is appalling to think that this serious situation should be mentioned only in the closing hours of this Dáil session. The country is entitled to know that the Taoiseach was extremely angry with the Fine Gael Party when we indicated we were not prepared to bring the business of this Dáil to an end this week in order to allow him and his Ministers to go off on a three-month vacation.

I had asked the Taoiseach earlier to tell us and the people of the country whether he and some of his colleagues intended going abroad between now and 20th October next, for how long, where they were going and what the cost would be. This is a reasonable and valid question. One regularly asks one's friends and neighbours where they are going during the holidays, and when they are going. When we ask civil questions like that here, we are entitled to civil answers.

If we ask the Taoiseach whether he wants to let the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs go to study postal facilities in Helsinki, we are entitled to know when the Minister is going, how long he will be away and what the cost will be. We are also entitled to be told how many other members of the Government, with attendant civil servants, are going abroad between now and October, what the purpose of their visits is and the cost. Since the Minister for Local Government went abroad to study housebuilding in Europe and America, we have had fewer houses built. We are entitled to know whether visits abroad by other Ministers will bring about restrictions in the activities of their Departments.

I chastise the Taoiseach for not giving us an answer to those questions. I can assure him that I shall put the question down for 20th October next and I had better be given an answer as to the time he and his colleagues spent abroad, the purpose of their visits and the cost while they were away. It is an extraordinary business that we should have so many Ministers going abroad during the summer vacation. I do not know what benefit it has brought to the country. Any Ministers who have been abroad have brought nothing back but disadvantage to their respective Departments. Mind you, I do not say some Departments would not be considerably better off if the Ministers stayed away altogether, but this a democracy and I suppose they must be there sometimes. One can only hope that in the future Ministers going abroad will bring something of value back to their offices instead of travelling the world for nothing at public expense.

I thought I had finished with the question of hire purchase but I should like to return to it to refer to one other point. The Minister for Industry and Commerce proposes to increase the percentage of deposit and considers this a legitimate restriction. I have no desire to restrict legitimate hire purchase transactions in any way, although I do not think we should commend restrictions, but there are a number of types of undesirable hire purchase transactions and if any restriction is to be imposed, these are the kinds of contracts we should get at.

There is a considerable amount of fraudulent dealing involved in some hire purchase transactions. I shall illustrate it. A man goes in to buy a secondhand car. He is told the price of the car will be £400. He brings with him his old car to trade-in and the trade-in price he is allowed may be £50. He is told the deposit on the car he proposes to buy must be £100 and because the trade-in price on his old car is only £50, a further £50 in cash is required. In many cases, the purchaser does not have to provide the extra £50. The garage man says: "We shall arrange this. Let us call the price of the new car £450 and we shall allow you a deposit of £100 on the old car."

These transactions are falling on the desks of hire purchase companies as thickly as leaves in the autumn. I know this because many people consulting members of the legal profession, professionally, tell about articles they bought and in the course of their narratives, describe cases of the kind I have mentioned. It is something we must stop. It is wrong, almost bordering on the criminal. There is a serious element of criminality in it, and if it occurs frequently, it is not healthy or good for the country.

Still on the question of hire purchase, we have asked the Government, and they have refused, to allow a cooling off period. If the Government feel there is an undesirable amount of fraudulent hire purchase dealings, we agree they should kill such transactions. There are transactions involving goods which people buy on the spur of the moment, before they consider their need for them or their ability to pay for them. In Britain, after many years of agitation, it was agreed to introduce a cooling off period. This has been done during the past year. Why can we not have a similar provision here since we propose to introduce new hire purchase restrictions?

Nothing must have hurt our national pride more for many a year than the Taoiseach's admission that he is now the chief money-scavenger in Europe. To what state have we descended that we have got to go out begging and scraping for money in the world's money markets in order to help us run the country?

The Taoiseach's statement was that we were examining the possibilities.

When the Minister or the Taoiseach says: "We are examining the possibilities", it means either of two things—firstly, that he will do it or secondly that he is not considering it at all. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs knows that, because he is a skilful replier to Parliamentary Questions—when the Department are doing nothing about something, the best thing to say is it is under consideration.

I think the Deputy knows the position exactly.

If the Deputy did not know exactly what the possibilities are——

We know nothing because the Taoiseach said nothing, though he spoke for two hours.

We are entitled to be given the information the Taoiseach assembled to enable him to see if he will or will not go into the world money markets scavenging for money. We were not given this information. There never has been such an unwilling Government in the matter of giving information. We have not been slow to try to get information.

The Deputy does not ask enough questions.

It has sickened us in the past two days to hear people outside this House saying they were aware of the economic and financial crisis in the country while it had escaped the attention of the Members of this House. The Official Reports are bulging with warnings from the Fine Gael Party in recent times about the crisis that was developing. During the recent election campaign, the Taoiseach and his Party sneered at the detail in which we quoted our warnings about the Government's bad policy in the economic and financial fields. We have given consistent, constructive suggestions to the Government and they have just as consistently ignored them. In the light of that, we find it very difficult to accept the appeal by the Taoiseach for our help in the plight that has descended on him.

The Taoiseach is a master of verbiage and, as the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has just educated us on the precise words the Taoiseach used in connection with his scavenging for money abroad, may I point out that we find the same man who is so skilful in words saying that one of the Government's proposals for dealing with the situation was the reorganisation of the Government's capital programme to keep the total outlay within the forecast in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion? Does the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs know the meaning of that?

I do, and so does the Deputy.

The answer is that they will cut the housing programme by £2½ million this year.

It does not mean any such thing.

It possibly means a lot more, but in the absence of printed reports of all kinds, I had not the opportunity to do the necessary homework by relating the capital plan in the Government's Second Programme to that statement, which means there will be a slicing off of £2½ million from housing investment this year, this, mind you, at a time when building and housing costs are rising. The so-called Government Programme for Economic Expansion was published before the last increases in house building costs took place. These increases were caused by the industrial dispute which the Government encouraged last year. The increase in house building costs ranged from 20 to 35 per cent. The targets in the Second Programme were set on old prices. Notwithstanding all that, we have a reduction of £2½ million in the value of new houses built in this country in the last year. That is utterly inexcusable.

That is not true.

We in Fine Gael, who are pledged to the just society, will not remain silent. The Taoiseach asked us to be patriotic. There are many of us who consider our patriotism is to rid this country of Fianna Fáil and Fianna Fáilism. We shall make every endeavour to do that. We do not consider patriotism in the form of dead things like rocks or the Donegal Mountains and things of that nature. We see patriotism as devotion to our fellow-citizens and in discharge of that patriotism, we want to see homes are built for our citizens. Those who do not do that will have to suffer the penalties they so well deserve.

The Taoiseach, and the former Tánaiste, during the general election made great play of the Fine Gael proposals for the reform of our banking system. They said what Fine Gael wanted to do was to get hold of the banks so that they could restrict credit and cause unemployment. The Taoiseach and the former Tánaiste, now Deputy McEntee, went up and down this country terrifying the people that Fine Gael wanted to restrict all credit. There are only two interpretations one can put on this. The first is that the Fianna Fáil understanding of banking is such that that is what they thought we wanted. When we see what they are now doing, it is obvious they thought the only way to run the banks was to restrict credit. That is exactly what they are doing now. Let no blame with regard to this attach to the commercial banks. Let no blame with regard to it attach to the Central Bank. Let the blame lie where it deserves to lie and where it originated. It originated from Deputy Seán Lemass, the man who sought to obtain authority for leadership on the green slogan "Let Lemass Lead on".

The sad thing is that last year when corrective measures should have been taken, because of the trend in the economy, the Government did not take the steps then to deal with the banking situation. The really sad thing is we have wasted seven years of reasonable plenty. We have wasted seven years when there was no need for a vice-like grip on our banks. We wasted those years when we could have reformed our whole banking system. This would have prevented the ups and downs, the booms and slumps which will inevitably fall on this country until such time as the necessary reformatory steps are taken.

We are now in the middle of a slump and all the indications are that we are going to have a worse and more prolonged slump than we have ever had in our history. The blame for that lies, as I have said before, and repeated many times, and as I shall continue to repeat, on the man who claimed he was leading the country on the right road. This man is leading us whither we do not know. The people are getting extremely weary of trying to follow this man, who, like the Duke of Plaza Toro, is leading from a behind position which he finds more interesting and less embarrassing.

Firstly, let me welcome this Prices Bill, but not without considerable reservation. Nevertheless, I should like to welcome it. I believe this Bill does rather too little and much too late but at least it shows that the Government have at last realised the necessity for price control. Although this took a considerable amount of prodding from us, at least it is a step forward in Government thinking.

Exactly three weeks ago today, I spoke in this House and I pointed out to the Minister for Finance the danger to the economy which the Taoiseach outlined to us on Tuesday. I said we would be cowardly if we failed to mention these dangers. I mentioned that one of these dangers was the utter dissatisfaction and discontent of the wage and salary earners with the way in which prices had risen over the past 12 to 18 months and the way in which the 12 per cent increase in wages had been taken away piece by piece until it has now entirely disappeared.

I mentioned the possibility of another round of wage increases and the damage this would do to our export trade. I mentioned the necessity to reactivate the Prices Advisory Body and the necessity to introduce price control. I said this should be a public inquiry, that it should be conducted by some competent body and that the public should see whatever increases in prices were allowed by this body would be justified and that they would be satisfied that the necessity for those increases had been established. I asked the Government to consult with the different sections of the community to formulate an incomes policy which would prevent the nation from deviating into an economic jungle in which the stronger sections might survive but at the expense of the weaker and less organised sections.

This Bill, I believe, is a small move in that direction and, as such, I welcome it, not because of the perfection of the Bill itself but because it is a move in what I consider is a direction towards economic sanity and some type of Government planning on a reasonable scale. I recognise, as the Taoiseach has said, the difficulties of controlling the price of every commodity. Let us be frank about this; this is practically impossible but the price of the essential items which are reflected in the cost of living could be controlled to a large extent. There are great difficulties in doing this but the Government should control those prices first. Because of those difficulties and the headaches they may cause in the future it is all the more reason why the Government should take the advice of people who are competent to give it to them. They should have taken advice before we were in the middle of a crisis. If the Government take this advice, there will be a better approach by all sections of the community to this matter.

I believe that the time to bring this prices body into existence was when the 12 per cent wage increase was first introduced, and not now, when prices have whittled away the increases wage earners and salary earners obtained. In spite of the Taoiseach's appeal for responsibility, I think the Government are not sincere in their approach in bringing in this Bill a week before the Dáil adjourns, and trying to force it through, hoping it will not be discussed and that it will frighten the Irish Congress of Trade Unions next week in Cork away from advocating higher wages and salaries for their members. The Taoiseach appealed to the patriotism of the workers. He asked them not to rock the national boat, but he did not appeal to any other section in the past 12 or 18 months not to rock the national boat. He was utterly unconvincing about the necessity for patriotism or stability until he found himself in the middle of an emergency.

Let us look at what the Taoiseach actually said. Here I should like to draw the attention of the House to the difficulty Deputies had in obtaining copies of his speech and to all the conniving that was necessary to get a copy. It is typical of the Government's planning that in a crisis we could not get the Taoiseach's speech produced efficiently so that we could see it and criticise it.

The Taoiseach started by denying that there was any recession, or any crisis, or any emergency. He said there was no need for panic, and then he proceeded to deal with the situation as if all these crises and recessions were in fact, present. I believe the Taoiseach's action is justified by present circumstances. I also believe he should stop playing politics. We in the Labour Party intend to assist the country, but the Taoiseach cannot be allowed to stand up there and treat us as if we were simpletons by pretending there is no emergency and, at the same time, appealing to the House to assist him in ten emergency steps to deal with it. We are used to a certain amount of two-faced behaviour from the Taoiseach, but there comes a stage when he cannot be allowed to get away with it. He can be assured that we will help him, but let us make it clear that there is an economic situation which is far from healthy.

I believe that the economic problems facing us consist of two parts: the external aspect over which we have no control; and the internal aspect over which we have control. I would remove responsibility for the external difficulties from the Government. We are a very small nation in the financial and economic world, and there is nothing which this Government, or any Government, can do to influence outside events to any great extent. This I believe to be true whatever Government are in office, and I believe it was also true in 1956 when we had an inter-Party Government, and when Fianna Fáil were not quite so generous, and tried to lay the blame for that economic situation at the door of the inter-Party Government. At least we have now demonstrated the truth and killed the lies and slanders we had from Fianna Fáil in the past few years. There is nothing that any Irish Government can do to cope to any extent with this external situation. Let us kill this fairy tale which Fianna Fáil found it convenient to resurrect.

There are a few comments I should like to make on the internal situation. Many of the difficulties which we have to face were brought about by the Government themselves. The turnover tax which they introduced on the necessaries of life, increased the cost of living to a very considerable extent. It was introduced by the Government on the basis that there was no other method of raising taxes. They said it would not increase the cost of living, and that it was the solution to all our future problems. We have since seen the sad fact that it has not solved those problems. We are back to the same old type of taxation again, pushing up internal prices and wages to a very considerable extent, and that will continue in the future. The Government accepted very bad advice when they introduced that tax in that form, and I am sure they must regret it. The fact is that they made a mistake in introducing it, but that is no reason why they should not have second thoughts. To make a mistake is one thing, but to continue to try to justify a mistake is utter stupidity.

On several occasions since I became a member of this House I have advocated that this tax should be collected at source. If the goods are manufactured here it should be collected at the factory, and if they are imported it should be collected at the port. If the Government wished to change the rate of taxation, from time to time, and from industry to industry, that could be done without any great dislocation, and it would be more or less similar to the British purchase tax which is changed from industry to industry, and from situation to situation. That would allow them to control the present situation to a far greater extent than the Taoiseach now has power to do. Instead of relying on hire purchase control and credit restrictions, we should change and vary the rate of taxation. That would be a far more economic method of collecting the tax, and it would avoid tax evasion. I would consider that good sound planning, but the present method—and particularly putting it on the essentials of life—is stupid. It is hard to understand how any Government who consider themselves a reasonable Government could try to justify it and maintain it.

At the time of the 12 per cent wage agreement the Government should have had the foresight to bring in a Prices Bill to control the cost of living. One did not need to be a financial wizard to foresee the situation which was developing, and to realise we would in a short period be exactly where we are now, with prices taking away the benefit of the wage increases, and wage earners looking for another round of wage increases. The Government must be peculiarly shortsighted and stupid if they could not see 12 or 18 months ahead and visualise this position.

Indeed, within the past few weeks we heard the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce assert several times that there was no need for price control, that it was unnecessary. Yet today we have the Taoiseach's word for it that it is necessary. Within the past few weeks, apparently, Government thinking has undergone a drastic change. That is a pretty poor reflection on the leadership of the Government. During the recent election the Taoiseach was held up to the country as the man with more wisdom and planning than anyone else in the country. If this is the result of his planning and wisdom it is pretty poor. I do not think any Deputy no matter how inexperienced could have done worse. I hope that in the future the Taoiseach will stop pontificating and listen to good advice when he gets it in this House. He should realise that all the wisdom is not concentrated in the front bench of Fianna Fáil, or in the back bench of Fianna Fáil either, but that every section of the House has something to contribute. He should listen to good advice and he should be less reluctant to take it.

I have no interest in playing politics. I do not come here to find fault with the Government. I believe that I should offer constructive criticism and helpful advice. A certain Hemmingway character was asked how he became insolvent and his answer was: "In the usual way; gradually and suddenly". Apparently this is what happened to the Government. Gradually our balance of payments position has become worse—this information is readily available to anyone who reads the monthly reports; yet recently the Minister for Finance in his Budget statement led us to believe he was not concerned about this; apparently he was quite happy about it—and suddenly the Taoiseach discovered we are in the middle of a financial crisis, although he declines to call it that.

The Taoiseach blames the British surcharge for a large part of our export difficulties. This is probably quite true; yet, in my view, his reaction to the surcharge was not vigorous enough. We are the second or third most important customer the British have and we should have been able to make quite a stand to be treated on a different basis. If we had made it difficult for them and if we had put some retaliatory levy on British goods coming in here we would have achieved more and they would have more respect for us. We seem to have got the worst of the two situations.

The Taoiseach mentioned that the capital inflow had slowed down. We are all aware that a very considerable proportion of this capital came here from Britain, came from people fearing the advent to power of the British Labour Party and who were putting their money here in safe keeping. However, the bulk of that money had arrived here either before or immediately after the British election and it is not surprising that the inflow has since slowed down. In the event of a Conservative Government being returned to office in Britain this position will reverse itself and the money will tend to flow back to Britain. I would like to draw the Government's attention to this so that they will not be taken by surprise and so that they will have time to think for it, plan for it and be prepared for such an eventuality before it happens.

Another point is that matter of bank deposits. The decision of the Government to compel the banks to return to the Revenue Commissioners the amount of deposits and the names and addresses of the depositors, with the amount of interest earned, was a very shortsighted policy. I do not know what income tax the Revenue Commissioners gain from this knowledge and what they manage to take from these people, but the fact that that money was there was no great secret to anybody. It was known it was there and because it allowed the banks to extend credit it was overlooked by various Governments. The decision to collect revenue on these deposits has been largely responsible for the outflow of that money from this country. People who had believed themselves safe with this money on deposit found that they were not and it is now deposited in banks outside the State. It is most unlikely that we will ever see it returned. This is a great loss to the Irish banking system and to the people who want credit from the banks.

The decision in the Budget to increase from £25 to £50 the amount of money which it is necessary for the banks to return is an admission by the Taoiseach of the seriousness of the position. When the Budget was introduced we were given to understand that there was no difficulty, so this decision has nothing to do with the present situation. This is something which we all realised some months ago was a mistake and the Government are now trying to rectify it, but I am afraid their effort is far too late to achieve any practical result.

Another decision has been to increase the market development grants from 40 to 55 per cent to firms who increase their exports by up to ten per cent in the second half of this year. Up to ten per cent gives the impression that there must be an increase of ten per cent, but that is not so. If a factory increases its exports by a quarter per cent apparently they will qualify for the grant. Any factory increasing its exports over ten per cent will get a grant increase of 25 per cent. This means that a factory increasing its exports by 10.1 per cent or 10.25 per cent will get a grant of 65 per cent.

This is not demanding enough from the exporter. It means that for every 75 per cent grant given to the exporter the taxpayer will be paying 7½ per cent of the ten per cent levy into Britain. It demands very little effort from the exporters to get these grants and we should demand something more from them. There is also the question of how these grants should be financed. I believe that the taxpayer has more than enough hands in his pocket from every direction at the moment. This is surely a situation in which we should have put a levy on selected British imports and from that levy finance the grants we are giving to exporters to compete in the British market. If the money has to be paid by somebody surely the British should pay it on their exports to this country. However, that is probably too normal and too logical a solution to appeal to the Government.

I would like to make some mention of credit restrictions. In the present situation I think it fair enough that spending on inessential consumer goods should be reduced. This cannot be achieved without hurting some section of the community but I do not think that these credit restrictions ought to apply to money being used for genuinely beneficial purposes. Finances for housing have been restricted in recent months. That is utterly wrong. It is bad planning and a stupid method of applying these restrictions. Housing is a national asset. Houses have to be built and the sooner they are built the cheaper they will be built.

I would like a definite undertaking from the Taoiseach that there will be no restrictions on credit for housing purposes and that the existing restrictions will be removed. As the Government hope to get the support of the Labour Party on this measure, and in this situation, the least they can do is reassure us that there will be no tightening up of credit for housing. There is no point in the Minister for Local Government coming in here with a Housing Bill and making capital out of it and trying to lead us to believe that now at last we will see something in the way of dealing with the national housing problem, which is getting worse instead of better, if the Taoiseach arrives in the following week with an emergency situation. When he is making his reply perhaps he will tell us what exactly he intends to do about housing. This is a very important point.

There is just one other point I should like to mention before I finish. It is in relation to the Prices Body itself. We are led to believe they will go back and inquire retrospectively into the recent price increases. An inquiry is at the moment being held by the Fair Trade Commission into prices of drink. This inquiry does not, I believe, include the brewers and the distillers. If the Government have any sincerity or any honesty they will tell us what they are proposing to do. The least they can do is inquire into the necessity for the increases in prices by the brewers and distillers at this stage. It is only 18 months at the most since the time of the 12 per cent wage agreement when the distillers and brewers readjusted their prices and brought them up-to-date to deal with the situation then. Now we find that without any material increase of any kind they are finding it necessary to increase their prices again and the Government apparently do not feel this is something which should be investigated. I hope they will investigate it and that they will force the brewers and distillers to prove clearly that these increases were necessary. I hope the Government will now show some political honesty to the electorate and that they will force these people to reduce their prices.

This Prices Bill is not what we would like. It is introduced in completely the wrong circumstances. It should be brought in at a time of stability instead of being rushed through as an emergency measure. Anyway, it is an admission from the Government that they were wrong and that they did not take the advice they should have taken. Because this is a step in the right direction, we will support the Bill and we hope that Government planning in the future will be better and that the Government will be more ready to listen to good advice and that we can rely on them now to think before they act.

It was my intention to come in on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture, but as matters turned out the Opposition failed to make any worthwhile contribution and the debate closed and any bouquets I have to throw at the Minister for Industry and Commerce would be as usefully dispensed in his own office.

On this particular Estimate I should like to compliment the Taoiseach on his very forthright and typical approach to what he describes rightly as a difficult position. Due to world conditions we have suffered, let us say, an economic setback, but I have no doubt that his positive approach and his positive remedies will produce the necessary measures of correction. He was honest with the House when he asked for the co-operation of the Opposition Deputies and I think he did so in the belief that he would get it.

I should also like to commend the Leader of the Opposition, Deputy Cosgrave, for his willingness to co-operate with the Taoiseach and the Government in the present position. The Leader of the Opposition did make the reservation that his Party would not be gagged and that they were entitled to make criticism of certain Government activities. Nevertheless, I think I would be correct in saying that some of his troops have breached that faith. I was here last night and I expected a reasonable standard of debate in this House. I am a new Deputy, but unfortunately I heard a most degrading performance from the Opposition benches, so much so that I was inclined to think that there were some remnants of a most fiendish and unspeakable characteristic of the 1930's still evident in this House.

Anyhow, we must pass from that. I should say as well that Deputy M.J. O'Higgins was not slow to remind new Deputies in the Fianna Fáil benches of the patriotic background of Fine Gael. I do not think we need wait for Deputy M.J. O'Higgins to remind us of patriotism. Most of the Deputies in the back benches of Fianna Fáil are new and they are doing their best to learn and I can truthfully say they were born into a good tradition of national service.

Fianna Fáil have been criticised for their administration from time to time, but, nevertheless, any worthwhile development in this country has come from Fianna Fáil. You have the development of the ESB, Bord na Móna and the Sugar Company. I am very closely associated with the Sugar Company and I will say they have done a considerable and commendable job in developing the economy of this country. However, it appears to me they are not getting the type of support they should expect. The increase in imports over the past six months has been one of the major factors contributing to the decline in which we find ourselves at the moment. I can talk from my own particular sector on that trend and I am sorry to say that the support for Erin Food Products has been very poor indeed by most sectors of the community, Munster and Cork excepted.

The ratio of Erin foods in Dublin or Irish-made products against imported ones is three to one against. In Connacht, it is two to one against and in Munster, there are two units of Irish products used against every single unit of imported ones. This morning we had to endure the dirge of the west: everything was wrong; the Government were wrong and they could not do anything for the west of Ireland and for the western people who are stated to be in a bad plight. Nevertheless, there is a sugar factory in the west, in Tuam, and the state of affairs in the west is that the people, having been given the opportunities—the land, the resources, the machinery and all the advisory services—are still supplying only 4,000 acres of the total acreage of beet supplied to the sugar factory. The whole position seems to resolve itself into the fact that the western people expect too much from the Government.

We have a sugar factory in Mallow and a food factory in Midleton and these factories are thriving. The problem confronting the promoters is the availability of labour. That is a good state of affairs. The west has got its chance and I do not think that the Galway section anyway has made the best use of its opportunity.

Undoubtedly, problems arise from buoyancy in the economy and from a high standard of living and well-being amongst the community because then unnecessary luxury goods are imported in large quantities and the balance of payments problem which their importation involves is one of the banes of the Government at the moment. In my view, the Government are taking necessary corrective measures in this respect.

We have our problems in my constituency. For instance, we have a housing shortage. There again, private and local enterprises are very important. We cannot look to the Government for everything. In Mallow, for instance, a public utility society is building houses on its own and is cooperating with the Government in not asking the Government to do the job for them. That is the type of industrial trend which is required among the Irish people.

No matter how we may look at the picture, the future of our country must rest on our agricultural produce. Therefore, any industries which we hope to establish should be based on our agricultural produce. Fianna Fáil have certainly done a very good job in that respect.

In my constituency, we have good employment. We have a few black spots here and there. We must get industries for Kanturk, Fermoy, Buttevant and Newmarket. I would urge the Government to base industry where there are industrious people, not cribbers and criers and people who are looking to the Government for everything. I would ask them to base industry on places where people are willing to work and will give good value for their earnings.

I do not care to dwell on the record of Fine Gael but I must point out that in my constituency Fianna Fáil have a very good record. When I reflect on conditions under the Coalition Government, I remember that a black coffin came to Mallow in 1956; the people do not want that again. It is obvious that the people have complete confidence in the ability of Fianna Fáil to develop our economy.

The Opposition seem to be trying to make the case that there is a state of panic in the country at the moment and, of course, they seek to blame Fianna Fáil for this state of panic which is alleged to exist. Fine Gael seek to guide the thinking of the country to the view that the economy is in trouble. It is not in trouble but the Taoiseach was courageous and man enough, in his own typical way, to explain that the signs are there, that unless we take corrective action now and unless the Government realise their responsibility in this matter. We really could be in trouble.

Deputy Cronin has described himself as one of the young Fianna Fáil Deputies who are learning their job. If this is his first contribution to debate in this House then all I can say is that he has learned fairly fast and is to be complimented. He managed to get in a first-class plug for his constituency in County Cork, if the Minister for Industry and Commerce was listening. He said there are no cribbers and criers in County Cork, that they are all hard workers there and that it is obviously the place to which to bring industry.

Deputy Norton said he was one of the few fortunate Deputies who were able to get a copy of the Taoiseach's statement and consequently he was able to deal with it in a systematic and comprehensive way. I have not been able to get a copy and it is not easy to remember the details two days later. However, yesterday, when the Minister for Industry and Commerce was speaking he said he did not expect the Opposition Deputies to restrict themselves in any way in their treatment of the present situation. He said he did not expect, nor did the members of the Government expect, any mercy from the Opposition but that he did expect and hope for the maxi mum amount of co-operation in the efforts being made to overcome the present difficulties.

I can speak only for myself but I am sure it goes for many others when I say that we are extremely anxious that no act of ours would in any way interfere with that effort. In fact, we would be anxious to take a positive part in trying to overcome the difficulties of the country at the present time. It is only right, at the same time, that we on this side of the House should speak our minds and my mind is that the Rake's Progress has come to its inevitable end.

The Taoiseach came in here a couple of days ago and made a comprehensive confession. I hope it is a full confession and that the position is no worse than he described it. He gave me the impression of a man who was very worried, of a man who had kept the true position away from the people as long as he could but could bluff no longer. It is a strange thing but it is a fact that for the past few years at every function that was held in the country there was a Government Minister present who told the people about the prosperous economy and about the healthy state of the nation generally. Everything was prospering under Fianna Fáil and nothing could go wrong. As other Deputies have said, the slogan was: "Let Lemass Lead On". Now, instead of that Utopian nonsense, if we had been honest and sincere with the people I think we would have been continuously reminding them, and that the Government would have been at pains to keep before the minds of the people, that an enormous job had still to be done, that this is a small country with few resources, that, if we are to get even a comfortable standard of living for our people, we must have full development in the shortest possible time and, furthermore, that we can never hope to enjoy, if "enjoy" is the right word, the standards of living other countries have.

Instead of that, as I say, we were telling the people that this is a country flowing with milk and honey: "There is full and plenty for all— come and get it". What, then, could we expect? We had an affluent society there, all right. How can we expect the people to put in the necessary effort to achieve the sort of development our country requires if we say it is already there? I think that this has done an immense amount of harm. We have given our people a false sense of security and we are now reaping the harvest.

We should have been telling the people continuously that we should be ashamed of the fact that we still have a chronic 50,000 people unemployed; that we have emigration at a rate of 25,000 persons per annum; that we have an enormous adverse balance of payments position; that we have approximately 60,000 houses unfit for human habitation and incapable of economic repair; that we have approximately another 60,000 houses overcrowded and that we have probably 50,000 houses unfit for human habitation but capable of economic repair. We have approximately 100,000 families living in unfit conditions. This is the prosperous economy that has been dangled in front of the people's eyes all the time and for which Fianna Fáil have been responsible. We have not half enough schools or teachers, and nobody will more readily admit that than the Minister for Industry and Commerce. We have had no improvement in the health services for years, and now the prospect of improvement is vanishing.

These facts should have been kept continually before the people instead of this perpetual nonsense that no effort was needed. Labour have a part to play here, too. Everybody at every level has a part to play. I have always felt that the trade unions were wrong in concentrating too much time and energy trying to get marginal improvements for the people already in employment while not seeming to pay sufficient attention to the 50,000 chronically unemployed and the 25,000 forced to emigrate. We all know that our standard of living and our prospects generally depend on our ability to produce sufficient competitive exports. We will not get this initially until we have the country developed, and we will not develop the country by ensuring that everybody gets shorter hours of work and does less for more money. This applies at every level. Nobody in this country should be content as long as that number of our people are unemployed and emigrating. We should have less concentration on those people fortunate enough to be able to earn a reasonable living until we have seen that all our people have at least a frugal living standard.

In industry there were no increases in wages, no reduction in hours and no change in conditions since the National Wage Agreement.

I am glad to know that. I did not know it. The Government are quite right in looking for, if possible, a period of stability, a period during which all our production costs will be known. That is good for everybody, for the manual worker and the top executive. It is the only way we can ever hope to be prosperous. Good employer-labour relations are an essential if we are to find sufficient employment for all our people in this country. There is no scarcity of employment opportunities if we can simply pay the people to do the work. There is an enormous job to be done on the land in this country. Vast capital investment is needed in agriculture if we are to hope to reap its full potential. Arterial drainage and land drainage are proceeding at a snail's pace. I have referred here previously to the enormous number of people leaving agriculture every year. We are not providing employment opportunities for them elsewhere in the country. Practically the only opportunity there is for them is in industrial employment.

I have been critical of the machinery for the establishment of new industry and the expansion of existing industry. I have spoken on this on the Vote for the Department of Industry and Commerce, and it cannot be over-emphasised. When we are fortunate enough to get good industries into this country, we forget about them. Our work should only really start then. In most industries there are opportunities for expansion. If they are well looked after, they will bring in additional industries. We have not sufficient personnel in this Department. The people I have met in it are excellent, but there are not sufficient of them, and there are too many bodies. It is all part of the divided responsibility that has had such ill effects in so many Departments. I have criticised it in relation to housing from the point of view of making it impossible for houses to be built within any reasonable time. It also involves the waste of professional and skilled people, where we have two sets of people, one checking the other. Yet these are people badly needed in other Departments. Various remedies have been suggested. The Minister for Industry and Commerce feels it is much better to soft-pedal in applying these remedies than to attempt any drastic measures. He may be right in that. I hope he is. I hope the situation calls for no more than is asked for at present.

Apparently, there was doubt in the minds of some Deputies as to whether or not under this Prices Bill the Minister could inquire into existing prices and prices fixed in the recent past. I was glad to hear him indicate he feels he has sufficient power under the Bill to do that. Most of our trouble has stemmed from the turnover tax and the advantage that was taken of it. It brought in its wake a general demand for increases in wages and incomes. That was natural because the cost of living, prices and costs generally had soared. We have now reached a point where our economy cannot withstand any little adversity at all. If we had developed our economy, it should have been able, for a short period at least, to stand up to the British surcharge. If the economy were developed and geared as it should be the imposition of the 15 per cent levy, afterwards reduced to ten per cent, should not have put us into the position that we now have to take emergency measures and there is no doubt in anybody's mind that there is a serious crisis.

I am very concerned as to the effect of this credit squeeze on my constituency. No less than 65 per cent of the total loan and grant houses built by all the lending agencies were built in County Dublin. We can imagine the effect on employment if this source of house building credit has dried up. I am greatly afraid that unless immediate measures are taken to enable private house builders to continue their work, there will be wholesale unemployment, particularly in County Dublin, where such a large percentage of the total number of houses was being built.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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