(Cavan) asked the Minister for Local Government why he approved of the installation of 3,000 imported steel baths in the Ballymun scheme notwithstanding the fact that superior cast iron baths of Irish manufacture and finish could be supplied by an Irish foundry (name supplied).
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Imported Baths in Ballymun Scheme.
18.
I did not sanction the use of imported baths in finished condition for this scheme. I approved the use of pressed steel baths, the shells of which are imported but which are otherwise finished in this country. My reasons for this decision were based on technical considerations related to the particular project, such as the importance of weight and tolerance in high-rise system-built structures, as well as on the important consideration of cost.
(Cavan): Is the Minister aware that the baths supplied have not got any standard specifications and is he also aware that the firm mentioned in the question has supplied baths in open competition against this particular firm even in Northern Ireland? Is the Minister also aware that the firm mentioned supply 90 per cent of the baths in the Irish market in open competition against the firm that got the order and that the pressed steel baths actually produced there are not the cheapest type? Finally, is he aware that as a result of giving this order for these imported baths, a very considerable amount of employment is lost in Bailieboro', County Cavan?
I am not aware, and I do not agree with the Deputy, that these baths are not up to specification. I still say that for the job on hand, they are as good or possibly a better bath than the product to which the Deputy is referring. The deputation of which Deputy Fitzpatrick was a member came to me on this matter and I gave that deputation all the information that led me to the conclusion that these baths should be used. Deputy Fitzpatrick wants to make the case that the fact that 95 per cent of the baths used in this country are supplied by a particular firm is an indication that these baths are superior baths. That does not necessarily follow, since for some considerable number of years the Clonmel product was not allowed for grant purposes and therefore there could not be said to be any choice of bath available to the people installing them. With regard to the position at Bailieboro', I understand that work to a degree almost the same is now available in Clonmel, and in the context of the numbers manufactured at Bailieboro' and the fact that the product of that firm is said to be able to compete with all comers, the 3,000 baths mentioned in the question can be only a drop in the ocean to the Bailieboro' people. If their export potential is as has been stated, the 3,000 baths must be a very small item indeed.
(Cavan): If I understand from the Minister that the baths supplied were as good as, if not better than the Bailieboro' baths, surely the Minister should have, in pursuance of his policy of buying Irish, preferred the all-Irish manufactured bath to the imported bath?
The Deputy says that the Bailieboro' firm supplies 95 per cent of the total of 13,000 or 14,000 baths used but I disagree when he says that their product is a better product. I do not believe it.
It is Irish.
I am further informed by the people in question that the total amount of grant they would get for the production of the 3,000 baths only slightly exceeds the amount of extra cost in using the Clonmel product. It is not true to say that the Clonmel bath is an all-foreign bath. Fifty per cent of the cost of the Clonmel bath is given over to the processing of the material and the payment of wages in Clonmel. The saving on the use of the Bailieboro' bath is not one-third of the cost as against the other.
(Cavan): Is this to be taken as a precedent and are we to take it that in future Irish materials will not be insisted upon?
Deputy Fitzpatrick is begging the question. He wants me to say that this is a broad decision but he was given to understand, when he came with the deputation, that this decision relates only to Ballymun.
(Cavan): I can tell you——
I am telling you for a change. This information was given to the Deputy on the occasion I have mentioned and the Deputy is now asking for a decision on the broad principle of the use of these baths as against the others. When that deputation came to me, I asked them for full information for the purpose of a full examination of their product as against the Clonmel product.
(Cavan): I am not satisfied with the Minister's reply and I propose to raise the matter on the Adjournment.
Could the Minister say if the supply of these baths was included in the original tender?
No. The whole contract is on a cost target basis, and where savings are made on the target figure, we share on the corporation's behalf in the savings, and where there is an excess, we share in that excess, with a limit of £¼ million. It is on a cost target basis which is rather new.
Who passes judgment?
I am calling Question No. 19. This discussion cannot go on forever.