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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Feb 1966

Vol. 220 No. 5

Adjournment Debate. - Dublin Corporation Abattoir.

I should like to thank the Chair for allowing me to raise this matter on the Adjournment. The subject matter of the question is not only of importance to Dublin but of national importance. It could have serious effects for one of our main export industries. In view of the events that led up to the situation which now obtains in regard to the export of meat to continental countries, it is very important that the full facts in relation to this matter be made known.

Dublin Corporation Abattoir, as the Minister said today, is the municipal abattoir. I suppose it could be argued technically that its primary responsibility is killing for the local trade, but the fact is that quite an extensive export trade has been carried on since at least 1943 by a number of individual private firms engaged in the export trade of dead meat and that the Minister's Department is the sole authority for the export of dead meat. There has been an attempt by the Minister to lay the blame for the situation that has now developed on Dublin Corporation. It is not possible for the Minister to exonerate himself from responsibility for the creation of this very serious situation.

There are in the abattoir, as there are in every abattoir or slaughterhouse that exports meat, permanently situated representatives of the Department of Agriculture, veterinary surgeons who are the sole authority on hygiene, equipment, containers, every conceivable aspect of the export trade, and these veterinary surgeons are employed directly by the Minister's Department.

On 26th June, 1964, a directive was issued by the EEC countries that they intended to introduce very stringent measures of hygiene on countries from which they were importing dead meat, and one would imagine it would be safe to assume that the Minister and his Department who are responsible for the whole of the dead meat export trade would keep themselves fully informed as to all the developments and trends that could in any way affect this most important export trade. The fact remains—and the Minister, in his reply to my question today, has stated—that on 15th June, 1965, a relatively minor official of his Department was in the abattoir and inspected it. He held a conversation—note, "a conversation"—with a relatively minor official of the corporation to the effect that these new EEC regulations might affect us. That is what the Minister has stated in this House; that is the concern he showed for a major industry in this country, that an informal conversation took place, on the Minister's admission, 12 months after this directive was issued by the EEC countries.

A proper question to ask at this point would be : Is this what one would expect from a man who holds a position of major importance in this country, from a man who is responsible for the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, that 12 months after a directive was issued by the EEC countries a conversation should take place between the corporation, at junior level, and an official of his Department? The Minister also stated that in 1964 he communicated with the City Manager. I am stating here tonight, in public, that the only communication received as regards conditions in the corporation abattoir in 1964 was in connection with the French trade. It specified four items that it was necessary to improve, and they were complied with immediately by Dublin Corporation. Now it is beginning to emerge where the responsibility lies. After this conversation in June, 1965, the next time we hear from the Minister's Department is on 10th September, 1965.

On a point of fact, permit me to ask the Deputy if he is aware of the letter of 6th July from the Parliamentary Secretary of my Department to the City Manager?

I am. The Minister will have ten minutes to reply, and he can introduce the letter if he so wishes.

Those are facts.

On 10th September, 1965, a communication was received from the Minister's Department to the effect that as from 2nd October, 1965, no export of meat to the Netherlands could take place from the corporation abattoir: three weeks' notice. The Minister issued his ultimatum that, unfortunately—due to his neglect or incompetence—here was a trade that was going to cease in three weeks' time.

The next communication received was dated 14th October, 1965, and told exporters and the City Manager how serious the situation was. Apparently it became serious in the Minister's mind only in a matter of days. He went on to list 23 points with which it was necessary for the corporation to comply. Again the corporation and the exporters in the abattoir got only three weeks within which to comply with these requirements, although some of the items listed by the Department involved major structural alterations. The Minister gave us an ultimatum to have it done in three weeks.

In his reply to-day, the Minister indicated that this was not a serious matter at all. He asked what was all the fuss about. He went into percentages. He tried by his acrobatics to dismiss the whole thing as not really worth worrying about. I was on a deputation to the Minister with exporters and other people concerned last Friday week. If the Minister is honest enough, he will agree with me that he said at that deputation that, while the continental trade was gone, it was most likely the United Kingdom trade would be gone as far as that abattoir was concerned within three months.

Nonsense.

The Minister made that statement. Apparently, the Minister thinks we can undertake to wait from 12 to 15 months before rectifying the situation. We cannot oblige him. We cannot have it on our conscience, as the Minister apparently can, to allow a thing to drift to the point of no return and not only injure or lose a very valuable export industry but affect the lives and livelihood of hundreds of people.

Did I not promise the deputation that as soon as I possibly could I would restore the premises?

Are you prepared to build a new abattoir?

The building of a new abattoir has nothing to do with me.

The dead meat export trade has nothing to do with you either, according to you.

It is the Deputy's responsibility as a councillor. That is what all this nonsense is about. The Deputy is trying to shuffle off his own responsibility as a councillor.

The Minister also tried to draw the red herring of the new sheep slaughterhouse across the path of inaccuracies he spewed across the floor of the House today. He claimed the abattoir had submitted plans for a sheep house in 1961 and had changed the plans in 1963. He is trying to imply that the corporation were building the new sheep house because they were aware of the EEC regulations.

Nonsense. I never implied anything of the sort.

He also tried to exonerate himself completely from all responsibility in this matter of the new sheep house. Surely the Minister will agree it is necessary——

There was no EEC in 1961.

I know. I was not quite sure whether you did. The Minister must surely be aware that, if the new sheep house was to be used for the dual purpose of the home and export trade, it was necessary to have the consent and co-operation of his Department regarding its lay-out. In fact, on one of the occasions when the plans were changed, they were changed after his Department had changed their minds, not the corporation.

The logic of that escapes me.

We have the Minister, the Taoiseach and other Government spokesmen saying at various functions how vital it is that we should have new industries. They are prepared to go to great lengths to attract new industries by grants, tax concessions and all sorts of things. But here we have a Minister who, through his neglect, has undermined and possibly wiped out completely an old-established industry exporting in excess of £1 million per year.

I wonder what your motives are?

To expose you.

Is it just personal venom or what is it? Is the Deputy trying to protect himself from neglect of his own responsibility? I am sorry, Sir, but this sort of personal attack is completely new to me.

If you think you will obscure the truth by your interruptions, I am sorry because you will be disappointed. On January 4th 1966, a further letter was received from his Department. This stopped all exports from the abattoir, with the exception of those for the United Kingdom. I wonder what motivated the Minister? He stated in the House today that only one of the EEC countries stipulated that they wanted a list of where the exports were coming from. The Minister said his Department was responsible for issuing certificates saying that all these requirements were met. The Minister's Department have been responsible for issuing these certificates since the export trade started from this country. How did things become so suddenly drastic on 4th January and why did the Minister on his own initiative stop exports to all destinations other than the United Kingdom? He had not been asked to. He had been asked by only one country for a list of the slaughter-houses for sheep.

The Minister must surely be aware that the standards of hygiene in the EEC countries are no better than ours. In fact, in some of them they are not as high. The Minister must be aware that, while the EEC countries are insisting on these standards, as they are entitled to do, they do not necessarily maintain them at home. It is not a question of do as I do, but a question of do as I say. Although the directive was issued by the EEC countries in June 1964, no action of any kind, either verbal or written, was taken by the Minister and his Department to convey the seriousness of the situation to Dublin Corporation Abattoir. The first action taken by the Minister on his own statement was a conversation 12 months after the directive was issued, and the first written communication concerning the EEC countries received from the Minister's Department came 15 months after the directive was first issued.

As a result of the neglect of the Minister, the repercussions of that neglect on the livelihood of several hundred people and the serious effects it could possibly have on the whole dead meat export trade, there is only one honourable thing for the Minister to do, that is, to tender his resignation. It is quite obvious—and I am sure it will be quite obvious to the people of the country—that a man who would allow, through neglect or incompetence, a situation to develop such as the Minister allowed to develop in the abattoir and the effect it has had on the dead meat trade, is a man who is not by any stretch of the imagination a competent person to deal with so responsible a Vote. Resign.

The Chair must call on the Minister.

I find it difficult to decide for myself what motives Deputy Cluskey has in this whole matter. It may well be that he is endeavouring to create a smokescreen for his own protection. He is, after all, an official, I think, of a trade union which caters for workers in the Dublin abattoir. He is a member of Dublin Corporation which owns and is responsible for the Dublin Corporation Abattoir. Surely, in this dual capacity, he might have been expected to take some action at some time about the conditions in the Dublin Corporation Abattoir? It could well be that now, having been found out as neglecting his duty in both these capacities, he is endeavouring, as unscrupulously as he can, and by a complete distortion of the facts, to foist the blame for this unfortunate situation on to me.

The Minister seems to be responsible—I heard only one case.

I could not possibly attempt to deny, in the short space of time available to me, all the many misrepresentations which Deputy Cluskey has made.

The facts are there. They are facts.

In an endeavour to confine myself to putting before the House the correct chain of events in this whole matter, I said today that, since the 1950s, my Department have been pressing Dublin Corporation to provide better facilities at the abattoir, and that is perfectly correct. Down through the years, there have been countless meetings between representatives of my Department and officials of the Dublin Corporation about this matter.

Can the Minister produce the correspondence?

The Minister has only 10 minutes and he should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Will he lay it on the Table of this House?

There must be no further interruptions.

I quoted today, and I mention again as conclusive proof of the fact that these discussions were taking place, that Dublin Corporation themselves on two occasions submitted to my Department plans for a new sheep slaughterhouse at the abattoir.

1961. The Minister stated that the EEC was not in existence in 1961.

The Deputy had 20 minutes in which to speak and the Minister now has only ten minutes in which to reply.

Why would Dublin Corporation prepare plans for a completely new sheep slaughterhouse in 1961 and again in 1964 if they were satisfied with the conditions prevailing in the abattoir?

The export trade was flourishing.

Since the export trade in sheep and lamb began to grow to sizeable proportions in the middle of the 1950s, we have been pressing Dublin Corporation to do something about this. I am not responsible for Dublin Corporation Abattoir. The provision of facilities in Dublin Corporation Abattoir is solely a matter, entirely a matter, for Dublin Corporation. My job was to try to persuade, in so far as I could, Dublin Corporation to provide the necessary and adequate facilities there. I could only try to do that by persuasion. I had no powers to compel Dublin Corporation to do it. The only power I had was the ultimate power of withdrawing sanction for export if they did not comply—and eventually I was forced to do that. A point was made today by Deputy Sweetman about the EEC regulations. The position with regard to them was that they were published in Brussels on 26th June, 1964. They were approved by the Council of Ministers on 28th June, 1964, and they were officially gazetted by the EEC in Brussels on 29th June, 1964. We received them as soon as we could after that. The original text was in French. They are quite complicated and their translation from French took a considerable time because of the technical nature——

15 months.

Could the Minister say when they were received here?

I have not the exact date.

Approximately?

I would say about a month——

About the end of August?

Yes. We, subsequently, having translated them, had to submit them to very careful veterinary and technical examination here to see precisely what was involved from our point of view. By the time all this was done, the earliest we were able to publish them to the exporters here was in December, 1964, six months approximately after their publication in Brussels but six months before they were expressed to come into operation in the EEC countries. We published them to all exporters of meat in this country including those private persons who use the facilities of the Dublin Corporation Abattoir for the export of meat.

Subsequent to the publication of regulations to the exporters—and, as far as we were concerned, we were entitled to regard their publication to the exporters as discharging our duty in the matter—but, subsequent to that and prior to their coming into operation in July, 1965, the veterinary officers of my Department visited the abattoir and reported on the position there. They reported that, on the coming into operation of these new regulations, the facilities for the export of meat to the EEC countries would almost certainly have to be withdrawn. As a result of that inspection, we arranged for a meeting between the representatives of the Department and of the corporation on 15th June, 1965.

When was the inspection?

On 14th June.

Mr. O'Leary

What about the veterinary services which are there permanently?

An inspection was carried out in June in the context and in the light of the new EEC regulations. The veterinary surgeon who is there constantly supervising the export of meat is primarily concerned with hygiene, quality and so on. This inspection on the 14th June by officers of my Department was to inspect the abattoir in the context of the new EEC regulations.

About six months after the completion of the examination, therefore.

But, all the time——

I do not want to be unfair but the Minister said the examination was completed in December, 1964, and the inspection took place in June, 1965.

This is a particular inspection to which I am now referring as a result of which this meeting between representatives of my Department and the corporation——

The Minister has convicted himself—six months were lost.

All the time, there was the normal pressure by us on Dublin Corporation to improve their facilities. On 6th July, the Parliamentary Secretary of my Department wrote to the City Manager expressing concern at the conditions in the abattoir and asking when it was intended to go ahead with the new sheep slaughterhouse. On 19th July, the Assistant Manager replied that it was intended to go ahead with the sheep slaughterhouse as early as possible. In the light of these simple facts alone—and there are many other items of correspondence and notes of meetings—how, in regard to these simple facts that I have given there, can Deputy Cluskey say we were not pressing in every way we could for the provision of adequate facilities in the abattoir?

The first communication was on 10th September.

There was a letter on 6th July to the City Manager from the Parliamentary Secretary.

The first communication about the EEC regulations was on 10th September.

That is not correct.

I will lay the whole file on the Table of the House.

Deputy Cluskey should allow the Minister to conclude.

The Minister is telling lies.

The Deputy will withdraw the word "lies".

Then the Deputy will leave the House.

The Minister is telling lies.

Deputy Cluskey will leave the House.

The Minister is undoubtedly telling——

The Deputy will please leave the House.

I will leave the House.

The Deputy will please leave the House.

Deputy Cluskey withdrew from the Chamber.

I just want to say, in conclusion, that the responsibility for the provision of these facilities is a matter for Dublin Corporation. My Department have consistently endeavoured to persuade Dublin Corporation to provide the facilities. What Deputy Cluskey was, in fact, inviting me to do when he came to my Department as a member of a deputation was to issue false certificates.

The Minister is the responsible Minister.

He invited me, in effect, to issue false certificates to a member country of the EEC and I refused to do that and that is what all this smokescreen is about.

Is the Minister going to put the correspondence on the Table of the House?

Would the Minister like to comment on an allegation made here today——

Tá an Dáil ar athló.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.40 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 3rd February, 1966.

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