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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 29 Nov 1966

Vol. 225 No. 11

Private Members' Business: Pensions.

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that in view of the steep rise in the cost of living and the difficulties created thereby for all pensioners, all pensions should be increased.
—Deputy T.J. Fitzpatrick (Cavan).

When I reported progress on Wednesday evening, I was referring to the terms of this motion. The motion draws attention to the difficulties and problems of the most needy section of our community, those who in the declining years of their lives are condemned to a desperate struggle for survival on pensions which are totally inadequate to provide in many cases even the barest necessaries of life. It is a disgrace that after 44 years of self-government, so many thousands of our citizens should be treated in this manner. This motion in the name of the Fine Gael Party draws the Minister's attention to the plight of these unfortunate people and asks him to take action.

The time is now long overdue when the whole question of pensions should be completely reviewed. There are compelling reasons for a change of policy and attitude, and the formulating and drafting of a new pensions code is a matter of extreme urgency. Ways and means will have to be devised to ensure that all pension scales are related, on an equitable basis, to the cost of living. This is the only way to ensure that our pensioners will be enabled to spend the declining years of their lives in the degree of comfort to which their long years of service to this State justly entitle them.

There is no doubt whatsoever that a wide variety of the pension schemes we have in this country are loaded with unjust and unnecessary conditions and qualifications. I doubt if there is any other country in the world which has such a complex system of pension schemes. Other Deputies who spoke on this motion on Wednesday evening last went into detail regarding the inadequacy and complexity of various types of pension schemes.

In regard to old age pensions which, perhaps, embraces the largest category of pensioners in this State, we have had in the past two years a new development in so far as the means test is concerned. In the 1965 Budget a differential was introduced: whereas prior to that anybody whose means did not exceed £62 was entitled to the maximum pension, in that Budget this was reduced to £26. In the first Budget of this year, a further distinction was made when the increase was given, and unfortunately, due to bad public relations or deliberate propaganda, most old age pensioners were led to believe they were getting the increase, whereas only those pensioners who were completely destitute qualified for it. As far as I can gather, only one in every seven pensioners qualified for that recent increase. These additional means tests which have been introduced in the last two Budgets were a bad idea and were completely unjustified. All categories of old age pensioners and certainly those whose means do not exceed the original figure of £52, should have received whatever increases were granted in the recent Budget and, indeed, these increases were small enough.

Garda pensioners were the subject of a Private Members' motion here a couple of years ago. It is very difficult to unravel the approach to the question of Garda pensions. I understand that there are six different rates of pension being paid to the same grade of retired gardaí. Of course, I know that there is a rate applicable at the date of retirement. There are strong grounds for reviewing the position and working out a system which will overcome the injustices in the scheme. The Garda Pensioners' Association and Garda pensioners in general are completely dissatisfied with the pensions payable. By virtue of the trojan service which they gave to this State in its formative years, retired gardaí are entitled to much better treatment than has been meted out to them.

Other Deputies have referred to Old IRA pensioners and have deplored the fact that in this year of 1966, which was to all these people a very special year, the Government did not make some recompense to them for the scandalous manner in which they have been treated. Many of these people who helped in the struggle for freedom are now advanced in years. Unfortunately, many of them are in very poor circumstances. I suppose every Deputy has had occasion time and time again to make representations on behalf of these people. I want to protest against the rigid manner in which the means test is applied in the case of applicants for special allowances.

Another category of pensioners who have been suffering under serious difficulties are CIE pensioners. We discussed their problem at length on a Private Members' motion a few weeks ago. There are over 1,000 retired transport employees in receipt of pensions of only £1 per week. The Minister for Transport and Power justified this on the grounds that on reaching the age of 70 years, these men qualify for the old age pension. Their CIE pensions are then reduced from £2 11s 3d to £1.

There are numerous other examples I could give but I do not want to detain the House by referring in detail to the various categories of pensioners. It must regretfully be admitted that there is this complexity and inadequacy in the matter of pensions and I appeal, therefore, to the Minister to accept the motion and to take whatever steps are necessary to help the many thousands of unfortunate persons to whom the motion applies.

I want to join in the appeal made by Deputy O'Donnell and other Deputies who have spoken on this Fine Gael motion. I do not think it should be necessary to appeal to any Minister to increase the amount of pension on which our aged people are forced to live. It must be obvious to every Member of the House and, indeed, to the Minister, that the meagre allowances paid to these people every week is not in any case adequate to meet the cost of living as it is today. We in the Labour Party have always agitated for increased pensions and when we got the opportunity in the Budget of 1965, we voted with the Government for the additional taxation to pay a reasonably increased old age pension. We were disappointed to find the introduction of the new means test, to which Deputy O'Donnell has referred, a new and even more rigid means test than had previously been operated. The aged are the one section of the community to which this exceptionally rigid means test seems to be applied. It is a very poor reflection on our society that we should treat in this very shabby, mean manner, elderly people who have given their lives and their services to the State.

It has become the practice in the past two years that November brings despair and disillusionment to hundreds of pensioners such as old age pensioners. Each November Deputies from all sides of the House must be flooded with appeals from these disillusioned people, people to whom even 5/- this year has meant a tremendous amount. People in this House who have considerably bigger incomes might not value 5/- a week but I know from my experience of these people and from my conversations with them, that 5/- to an old age pensioner represents something very important indeed, something on which he or she might depend and on which they might budget for little increased comforts. These people have not the comforts they require. Those managing homes must know that the amount of pension old age pensioners receive is not adequate, that, in fact, it can be spent on one item of budgetary expense in the average home. Personally, I cannot see how any old age pensioner living alone can provide for fuel and food, not to mention clothing, on the meagre allowance. I do not think it should be necessary for any of us to rise here and appeal to a Minister to accept a motion such as this.

There is just one item that I want to refer to in connection with widows' pensions. Widows' pensions are, of course, totally inadequate, particularly noncontributory pensions, but I want to refer to one aspect of widows' pensions, that is, the discontinuance of the children's allowance when the child reaches 16 years of age. We, particularly in latter years, have been agitating for reasonable and equal opportunities in education. Last year a £30 relief from income tax was provided in the case of persons liable to income tax in respect of a child who was continuing education. Quite different treatment is meted out to widows who, even with the allowance, could not possibly afford to maintain their children at school after the age of 16. In fact, they are told that education or any other comfort in life is not for them or their children. At 16 years of age, the children of widows are expected to earn their own living. In the case of those widows who, by great sacrifice, do try to get further education for their children beyond the age of 16 years, they must do it without any assistance whatsoever and the meagre 10/- children's allowance is discontinued at that age. Any reasonable Minister or any reasonable parliament must see that this represents injustice towards the weaker sections of the community.

During the past year, when English pensions were increased, it brought a certain amount of happiness and relief to those persons here who were in receipt of such pensions but that happiness and that relief were very short-lived. No sooner had they got the increase than the Irish Government stepped in and took from them portion of their Irish pensions. The whole attitude towards pensioners is out-dated. They certainly cannot live today on what they are being asked to live. It applies to all classes of pensioners and people on fixed incomes who cannot meet the rising cost of living. It should not be necessary to drag this matter on. I would add my voice to the voices of other Deputies in appealing to the Minister to accept this motion.

We of the Fine Gael Party tabled this motion because we are conscious of the fact that pensioners are finding it extremely difficult to meet the cost of living at present. We are less impressed by the statistics furnished by the Central Statistics Office, indicating the official cost of living, than we are by the daily acquaintance we have with the personal difficulties of pensioners. A fairer assessment of the rate at which pensions have progressed will be found by comparing increases in pensions with increases in wages paid to people who are currently earning. That is a better way of assessing progress, if we can properly call it such, in the pension rate than by comparing pensions with a sometimes meaningless figure of the cost of living.

An indication of how futile a reference to the cost of living figure can be was given recently in the House, when, in relation to proposals to increase rents, we were told the effect of the increase would be to send up the cost of living index figure by only .2 of one per cent. The fact that it may, spread over a whole nation of 2½ million people, produce an increase of only .2 of one per cent does not answer the problem facing an individual pensioner who finds that many of the goods and services he once was able to command are now beyond his reach because the purchasing power of his pension has been drastically reduced. That, we fear, is what has happened in recent years.

To give even a modicum of justice to pensioners of all kinds, both social welfare pensioners and public service pensioners, we should have a minimum of 20 per cent increase all round in pensions. We have in recent years experienced national rounds of wage increases. If these are justifiable, as I believe them to be, it is also justifiable to call for and insist upon national rounds of pension increases. The manner in which a considerable period has been allowed to elapse between increases in wages and increases in pensions has done less than justice to our pensioners. In most cases, even after compelling pensioners to wait for a long period after wage increases, we gave them ultimately a smaller percentage than that given to people still working. That is unfair to the pensioners who survived the timelag which the Government have permitted. But what is grossly unfair is that many pensioners have gone to their eternal reward before even the miserable increase was given to them. To us in Fine Gael it seems proper that the State should in future, in assessing the cost of any national wage increase, simultaneously assess the cost of giving a similar percentage increase to pensioners. The only way in which we can accord fair play and equal treatment to all sections of the community is to give it to all of them at the one time, whether they be pensioners or workers.

In his contribution last week, the Minister indicated what we all know, that is, that certain increases in pensions were given in recent years. The Minister mentioned, for instance, that the last time pensioners were compensated was in relation to the cost of living in February 1964, the date of the ninth round wage increase. That is true for many pensioners, but not for all, unfortunately. That is now almost three years ago. There has been a substantial rise in the cost of living since then, triggered off primarily by indirect taxation which falls, most unfairly, on pensioners and people on fixed incomes, many of whom did not receive compensation in the various Budgets which increased the levies the Government imposed on the necessary expenditure of pensioners. On this account, what was given almost three years ago has been taken back by the State. The result is that pensioners are not in as good a position—I speak relatively—as they were in 1964.

Even in 1964 and earlier we were told, at a time when money was plentiful, when it was spent and misspent on advised and ill-advised projects, there was no money there for pensioners. But now we find, in a situation in which the Government, for the first time, are prepared to confess that something more should be done for pensioners, that it cannot now be done because the money is not available. It is most unfortunate that at the time when money was plentiful, the Government did not do what they ought to have done. Not only is the plight of the pensioner miserable but a number of public assistance pensioners in recent times have had new means tests applied to them. Last year, for instance, we had a new standard of assessing old age pension benefits introduced, when we saw the paltry sum of 10/-a week taken into account. Any person who received more than 10/- a week found he was deprived altogether of the much-vaunted increase in the old age pension last year. This year we applied an even more stringent means test. If a person was not a statutory pauper, not completely destitute, he was deprived entirely of the paltry increase in the old age pension this year. The result is that, while all our old age pensioners were led to believe they could anticipate an increase of 5/- on 1st November this year, if they survived until then, in fact less than one-seventh of the old age pensioners have got the increase the Government boasted about.

What is the position in relation to old age pensioners who over the past 2½ years have received no increase whatever, notwithstanding the increase in the cost of living in the meanwhile? An indication of the growing hardship on pensioners will be found in the substantial increase in the number of appeals this year to welfare officers, that is to say, appeals which are made by people who believe they are entitled to benefit despite rulings that they are not so entitled or, if they are entitled to benefit, that they must get less than the maximum. The average number of appeals for several years was in or about 2,300 per annum in relation to a 12 month period. But this year the number of such appeals in a ten month period has increased to 3,600.

This is a very worrying figure. It is indicative of the more stringent application of the rules. I suppose one cannot properly say at any time that the rules should not be applied—if they are there, they should apply—but I think this figure is also indicative of the fact that pensioners are obliged, because of their dire circumstances, to take every possible step to get even a small increase in their pensions. This has led them to refuse to accept the decisions of the social welfare officers and has compelled them, because of dire necessity, to make their appeals to superior officers, even though we know from experience that the possibility of getting such appeals through is extremely remote.

We in Fine Gael do not pretend that we can have a better scheme of pensions or larger pensions without increased contributions from employers, employees and the State. However, we would have to accept in this country that we have a clear obligation to our own people to give such increases and to accept the burden which such increases would impose upon the community. Unfortunately, in the past five years, the share of the national cake, what we call the gross national product, received by the public assistance beneficiaries in this country has almost halved and this at a time when, if not for the good of our own people, which is our first obligation, we ought for other reasons of governmental policy to be taking a step in the other direction.

In the six countries of the EEC, with which we are led to believe we shall at some time be associated, the economic weight of the social system —that is, of providing pensions and other social benefits—ranges from 14.3 per cent of national income in the Netherlands to 18.1 per cent of the annual income in Luxembourg. We cannot pretend for one moment that we are anywhere near giving such a share of the national cake to our pensioners. We have not got even one-third of the way. Unless we do it, it seems that it will be impossible for this country to be associated with the EEC, if it were decided for economic reasons that it was desirable to be associated with that community, because, in addition to the economic obligations of the community, there are also clear social obligations which are just as stringent as the economic ones even if they are not spelled out in as great detail in the Rome Treaty.

The Rome Treaty provided, in the Preamble, that the signatories pledge themselves "to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action in eliminating the barriers which divide Europe," and "to direct their efforts to the essential purpose of constantly improving the living and working conditions of their peoples." In a statement on social security in the EEC, by the Director for Social Security and Social Services in the Common Market Commission, we read the following:

The social provisions of the Treaty may appear less numerous and, taken as a whole, less detailed than the economic provisions, but this cannot place in any doubt the ultimate social purpose of the Rome Treaty. Quite apart from the texts, this social purpose is inherent in the Treaty, for the establishment of a common market cannot be an end in itself and can only be justified, in the last analysis, if the economic prosperity we expect from it is fairly shared among all social groups...

We in this country are not fairly sharing our own limited prosperity amongst all social groups and, because of that, we in the Fine Gael Party believe there is an overwhelming obligation on the Government to increase all pensions.

In our motion, we did not endeavour to confine our exhortations to particular pensioners. We feel that a great deal of injustice has been done over the years to various pensioners because we have linked their individual pensions to individual wage rates and to individual predicaments. We know this is wrong. Pensioners must be treated as a large and growing proportion of our community and must be given incomes sufficient to maintain their standard of living today. We should like to see the establishment of a social commission which would assess the needs of such pensioners today, not related to what they may have earned in the past, not related to what the State may have paid to people in similar categories 20 or 40 years ago but related to what they actually need today.

I think we can learn from what is happening in Europe in the countries which provide better pensions and better social welfare services. We find that in all the six countries of the EEC there are national committees upon which sit employers, workers and administrators. One of our drawbacks in this country is that we have not got such well-informed committees assisting or superintending the administration and improvement of our social welfare services. We depend upon a limited number of administrators to suggest policy improvements and all that is put into competition with the many Departments of State which make demands upon the national Exchequer. This we believe to be wrong. We shall not have a well-informed social code in this country until such time as we improve the system.

There are particular categories of State pensioners deserving of our special consideration. One of these sections are the Garda pensioners. They are unique in that, when they are members of the Garda Síochána, they make contributions to their pension fund. Other civil servants have these contributions paid for them by the State. The members of the Garda Síochána, who have to retire at an age earlier than the age applicable to other servants of the State, find that, over the years between their retirement and the time they "shuffle off this mortal coil", the value of their pensions considerably diminishes. There is a crying need for a substantial improvement in all Garda pensions.

We in the Fine Gael benches are unanimous in calling on the Government to improve all Garda pensions and to make a special effort to bring all of them up to an equal level. This idea that we still apply here of paying men who retired ten years ago less than we pay a colleague of theirs who retires today is certainly not admissible on any ethical ground. It is difficult to justify the old contention that pensions are merely postponed pay but if we accept that old contention then I think we must accept the obligation that if we postpone pay to individuals by allocating it, instead, to pension funds we have a clear obligation to maintain the value of that postponed pay. If the State or society depreciates the value of a man's pay then the State has a clear obligation to ensure that the services and goods a pensioner can buy should not be diminished because of the depreciation in the value of money.

It is because we consider that the standard of living of pensioners has seriously declined that we believe the Government have a clear obligation to increase pensions. We are not at all impressed by the Government's statement that they have not got the money to do this. We recall that, although it is some 19 years since we in Fine Gael called upon the Government of the day, in 1947, to increase the old age pensions, the Fianna Fáil Party went into the lobby, and, to a man, refused to increase them.

The Government changed and the pensions were increased overnight. The national finances were not, as a result of that, in as unhealthy a position as they are today, nor do we believe that the finances of the State will ever become unhealthy by reason of the State fulfilling its obligations to old age pensioners, and to pensioners of all kinds. Indeed, the Government who fail to attend to the needs of pensioners wil certainly fail to discharge their primary duty by distributing the nation's wealth as equally as possible between all sections of the community so that none suffer hardship. At present most pensioners suffer hardship.

Because we are convinced that this hardship is growing, we tabled this motion. It is an effort to awaken the conscience of the Government of today into doing something for those people. We do not accept that improvements in pensions must await the annual Budget. Supplementary Budgets have been introduced for much less deserving purposes than giving pensions to the needy section of our people. On that account, we urge the Government not to delay any longer in providing a substantial increase in all pensions.

On Wednesday evening of last week when the Minister for Finance was speaking here, he expressed the view that the debate on this motion should relate only to State pensions and that if it was intended to discuss other than State pensions, it was his colleague, the Minister for Social Welfare, who should be here. The terms of the motion are:

That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that in view of the steep rise in the cost of living and the difficulties created thereby for all pensioners, all pensions should be increased.

That is clear enough. One can understand the Minister for Finance being anxious to say that somebody else should carry the can for him. The money must come from the Department of Finance and, therefore, he is the correct Minister to answer the charges made in this House. I intend to refer to Social Welfare pensions and State pensions because I believe this motion relates to both.

So far as Social Welfare pensions are concerned, I would like to refer particularly to the non-contributory pensions. It was announced here, in answer to a question last week, if my memory serves me correctly, that there are 111,438 people drawing non-contributory old age pensions and of those, 10,070 got an increase of 5/- per week. The plain people of this country, the old and the poor, have decided that there is no point in communicating with Fianna Fáil Deputies on this matter. If there is not, then the Fianna Fáil Deputies should be as well aware of the situation as we all are, particularly we in the Labour Party. I, personally, have received bundles of letters from people who say they have seen in the papers that they were entitled to 5/- a week increase in old age pensions from 1st November and that they did not get it. When they went to the trouble of writing to the Department of Social Welfare, they got a reply stating they had been assessed at £2 12s per year, that is, 1/- per week. So we now have a new means test in social welfare. Those assessed at 1/- per week are not entitled to draw full non-contributory pensions. I assume the same applies to widows' pensions.

A number of the letters written were anonymous, which would suggest that they were written by well-known Fianna Fáil supporters who for one reason or another, did not want it to be known to a member of the Opposition that they wrote to complain of the fact that they had been codded by the Government. One letter included a lot of cuttings from the evening papers, particularly the Evening Press.

They all followed the one theme: "Why were we told we were getting 5/- and why did we not get 5/-; we have been codded." A number wanted to know what the Labour Party were doing about it, what we were doing in the Dáil? The Minister for Lands, here present, will remember that we have again and again, when the 1/- means test came up, raised the matter in the Dáil. We honestly believe that with this 5/- increase, there should not have been a new means test created. It was a horrible thing and, in fact, it was a confidence trick on those unfortunate old people. I do not know whether the Minister and the Government are as well aware of these things as I am. Perhaps they are not; perhaps they do not go into the same type of houses as I do. I do know that 5/- for somebody who is getting slightly over £2 a week is an awful lot of money. The fact is that they have not got the 5/- per week, which, they say, they were looking forward to.

It is no answer to say that we gave so much last year and so much the year before and that the Coalition, or inter-Party, or what have you did not give as much. That is no use to the old age pensioner or to the widow. It buys no bread for them. I honestly think a bad mistake has been made by the Government in this matter.

In so far as the question of increase is concerned, Deputy Ryan when speaking here made a mistake which the Government have made again and again. Indeed, I might say, successive Governments have made this mistake. It is that when there is an increase in the cost of living and there is a general increase in wages it is sufficient to give the same percentage increase to the old age pensioner and other types of pensioner and say: "You are getting as much percentagewise as the workers outside." Twelve per cent to 12½ per cent on his wages to the farm worker means £1, which he got. What is 12½ per cent of the 42/6, even if they did get it? Some people do not seem to appreciate the fact that percentagewise it is not right to compare one with the other.

There is another thing which I think has been overlooked by this Government and by previous Governments. When the old age pension was first introduced for persons at the age of 70 in 1909, the pension was 5/- a week. If an old man and his wife were both drawing the pensions—and, incidentally, the means test was £26 a year, not 1/- a week—they could draw the old age pension of 10/- a week for the two. The farm labourer's wages at that time was an average of 9/- a week. The farm labourer's wage now, according to the Minister for Agriculture last week, is £9 0s 6d a week. What contributory old age pension, even with this 5/-produces roughly half that for two people? Even if they got the increase in contributory old age pension, a man and his wife would still have only slightly more than one-half a farm worker's wages. Surely that is not progress, that is not advance? We seem to forget, more so than anywhere else, that the workers of today are the pensioners of tomorrow and the pensioners of today are the people who were working a few years ago and who had not the good sense to ensure when they were working that there would be a decent pension for them. They know it would be only a matter of time until they passed out of the pension class.

This is a matter which is so serious that I believe what Deputy Ryan said about the cost is right. It does not matter a damn where the money is got; money to right this wrong must be produced. I remember distinctly the situation here at the start of the Emergency when a Budget of £6 million was introduced for Defence. The Emergency was declared and overnight the Budget was jumped to something around £25 million. There was no difficulty. The money was produced and the country did not go bankrupt. I believe this is a national emergency for many of these old people who find it impossible to live on what they are getting. This is something which people who are not close enough to those affected do not seem to appreciate. Does the Minister know or is it known that an old age pensioner, the same as anyone else, who buys a cwt. of coal pays 14/7 for it—14/7 out of his £2 2s 6d a week? When he has that bought, and he requires at least that to keep a little heat in him for the winter period, he does not have very much left to buy food, clothing or other necessaries. This is a matter which must be faced and the sooner the Government face it the better.

As far as the State pensioners are concerned, there is a situation here which should not have been allowed to arise. A few years ago the Minister's predecessor or the Minister before him — I think it was Deputy Dr. Ryan — announced in this House that it was proposed within a reasonable period to give parity to the State pensioners with those who were retiring at that particular time. This gave great heart to the State pensioners. They felt at last here was somebody who would see that justice was done to them. Of course, subsequently it was not done. Then there was a statement made to the effect there was no money and a further statement that the promise was never made and right along the line until now nothing is going to be done.

For some extraordinary reason, the worst hit of those people, the people who would require the largest increase to bring them up to the level of present pensioners are the Garda pensioners. I stated on the Estimate for the Department of Justice now before the House that the pensioners who are leaving the Garda service now are people who are entitled to the very best the State can offer them because they were the people who helped to create the State. They helped to create and to make possible the civil law of this country. For that reason, I feel they are entitled to a lot more than they are getting. Take all State pensioners, Army pensioners, Civil Service pensioners, pensioners of local authorities, and in every case there is this disparity between the man who retired ten, 12 or 15 years ago, who was pensioned off at the rate operating when he retired, and a man who might not have half his qualifications retiring now from the same service and possibly the same job. He will have, according to the number of years later it is, anything up to 50 per cent, 60 per cent or 70 per cent more pension than the man who went out some years ago.

If the Minister for Finance a few years ago felt it was right to promise that these people should get parity and be brought up to the present rate, then the present Minister should have another look at that because, as in the case of Social Welfare pensioners, it is all cod to talk about giving the same percentage increase to the State pensioners, as the workers get when they get an increase of eight, nine, ten, 11 or 12 per cent on existing pension. It is simply a drop in the ocean compared with what they would get if they got the same increase as the people who are still working. If the Minister is not prepared to go so far, the very least he can offer is parity with those who are at present retiring.

I have an instance of an old man who was employed as an overseer by a country council. He had very long service and retired nearly 14 years ago. When he retired, he got what was the maximum pension at the time— £3 10s. 0d a week. He is now a very old man. The overseer who succeeded him and who had very much shorter service as an overseer but had approximately the same service with the council as he had over the years on other employment in the council has retired. That man's pension, living next door to the man who retired 14 years ago, is almost £8 per week. I am sure the Minister will agree that there is something wrong with the system which allows that sort of thing to happen. Since they are pensioners and in most cases paying for their pensions down through the years, there is not a reason in the world why they should not be brought on some type of parity with the people who are now going out.

A number of discussions have taken place between people representing the State pensioners and the various Ministers and on one or two occasions the people have come into this House to discuss with various Deputies and with the Minister himself and his predecessor this whole question. The extraordinary thing is that when the interviews take place, it appears that it is possible to have something done for them, but as soon as they go, that possibility disappears and the unfortunate pensioners are no better off than they were before they came in. As Deputy Ryan mentioned, a table of comparison was issued in 1964 and it showed the position clearly. If the Minister has not got that table, I am sure it is in his Department and could be pulled out from wherever it has been collecting dust. It points to the fact that the Garda pensioners were the people who were getting the rough edge of the stick and would require to to brought up to parity with other groups. I think the Minister would do well to look at it because the position has not changed since except for the worse, because when increases are given to State servants, the gap is widened considerably. I would ask the Minister to have a good look at this because I think the time has come when he must, and this Government or some Government must, make arrangements to allow parity to the people who went out before now with those who are going out at the present time.

A number of people want to speak and it is coming towards the end of the time. Therefore, I shall conclude with an appeal to the Minister for Finance to talk to his colleague the new Minister for Social Welfare, and try to persuade him, even at this late stage, that the people of this country are not prepared to accept the assessment of a means test of one shilling per week to prevent those who are entitled to an increase in pension from getting it and that in the case of an old person who is living with a son or daughter, brother or sister, just living in their house, buying his or her own food, cooking his or her own food and attempting to exist on a non-contributory pension, it is just not good enough to tell them: "Your lodging is worth 1/- a week and you are not, therefore, entitled to the 5/-." That is actually what is happening and I do not think any Minister for Social Welfare or any Minister for Finance can boast about a Christian attitude on the part of those who operate this system.

I should like to supplement the arguments advanced in support of this motion. Many of the detailed aspects have been discussed by other speakers and I do not wish to repeat what has been said already, but I should like to urge the Minister, on the assumption of his present portfolio, to have a fresh look at the situation. The method by which pensions are calculated is the familiar one of pension based on rate of pay at retirement. In the main, that method covers State and semi-State employees, such as Army, Garda, teachers, civil servants and so on. That method was reasonable enough probably when the system was originally introduced because, at that time, the cost of living was more or less stable and, if there were variations, they were both infrequent and slight.

In the post-war period, we have become accustomed to a continuous and rapid decline in the value of money consequent on the rise in prices, with resultant difficulties for retired personnel. There is an obvious case for reconsidering the whole system now, the basis of calculation and the method of awarding pensions. This matter was considered by the interdepartmental committee and certain recommendations were made.

During the course of the debate, reference was made to the various pension increases given. The first Pensions Increase Act was, I think, in either 1949 or 1950. Since then, at irregular intervals, and without any clearly defined criteria, there have been pension increases, mainly in response to pressure of opinion in Dáil Éireann. Different Governments have introduced Pensions Increase Acts. In all these cases, the increases have lagged considerably behind the actual rise in the cost of living. Undoubtedly bringing pensions up to the rate of pension payable at the current date of retirement would naturally cost a considerable amount. For that reason there are two points which must be considered: the method of financing pensions and the method of contribution by employers, employees and the State. These methods must be reviewed. Leaving that aside for the moment, I believe there would be public support, and it could be justified, for increasing taxation in order to meet the claims of retired personnel.

We have had references to various categories of State pensioner. There are a number of semi-State bodies and the one that comes to mind as the most glaring example from the point of view of pensions is CIE. The pensions in many cases are deplorably low. There is a very unfair arrangement in that some pensioners, who are declared redundant, are entitled to a substantially higher compensation than those who serve out their time. In addition to that some pensioners complain that some of those who were declared redundant were subsequently re-employed and are apparently entitled to both redundancy compensation and to being put on the payroll.

There should be a more equitable method of assessing CIE pensions. In many cases the pensions are based on an outmoded system introduced originally in respect of the staff employed by the old Great Southern Railways. What makes it even worse is the fact that a number of CIE pensioners, who are many years retired, some as long as seven and eight years, have not yet had their superannuation determined. Apparently there is some difficulty and the Minister for Transport and Power proposes to introduce amending legislation. Whatever pressure can be brought should be brought on the arbitrator to complete and make final his award. The difficulty is that, although people are drawing some pension, they cannot make a settlement in relation to a widow in the event of death. Indeed, some pensioners have died without ever being able to do that.

So far as State servants are concerned—Army, Garda, civil servants and others—I have here an example which is, I think, quite typical. This person says: "I retired in July, 1961, and since that date the only increase I have received is the nine per cent increase operative from August 18th, 1965." There are many similar cases. As has been pointed out, a person who retires the day after the operative date is substantially better off than the man who retires the day before. Generally, a period of some months elapses, in some cases a year, but in certain cases only a month or two.

The position of pensioners who thought they would be awarded the recent increase in respect of social welfare is most unsatisfactory and has given rise to a great deal of dissatisfaction. The percentage entitled to the increase is infinitesimal, something like two or three per cent. The other case that occurred this year was the reduction made in the amount of pension by the Department of Social Welfare in respect of pensioners who received certain increases from the British Ministry of Pensions. In fact, what has happened is that the increase granted by the British Ministry of Pensions— or whatever the appropriate ministry is —has been offset by a corresponding reduction here by the Minister for Social Welfare. Therefore, I would suggest to the Minister that this matter be reviewed in its entirety. There was a great deal of evidence accumulated in this report, comparisons were made and information assembled of what has been done in other countries. Some of them adopted certain systems, others adopted other systems but there is a general movement in many European countries towards an upward revision of pensions, based on an automatic adjustment on the cost of living, similar to that which applies in respect of serving personnel.

There is another consideration: this operates more harshly against persons who have retired for some time than those who have just retired and who find that their successor—even though he serves a short time afterwards—gets a wage and salary adjustment and, consequently, retires on a higher pension. The longer a person is retired, the less likely he or she is to get employment; the older they get, the worse their position becomes. When they retire initially, some get part-time jobs but the longer they are retired, the less fit they are physically and mentally. Consequently, the fact that a person lives a considerable time as a pensioner means that, economically, he is much worse off than had he died shortly after retirement.

I believe, therefore, that the present method of financing pensions should be reviewed on the basis of reconsideration of the method of calculation and the contributions paid in respect of pensions. There is also the other important consideration—to which reference has been made in the course of this debate—of outside bodies. With few exceptions in my time, I think there was only one—maybe that is a slight exaggeration—but there were certainly very few firms in the city of Dublin, pre-war, operating a pension scheme and there was generally one notable example; that of Messrs. Guinness. Since then, pension schemes have become much more general, because of a revised attitude in all democratic countries to social welfare considerations and to the adoption of a welfare state approach to these matters. Nowadays also pensions trusts formulate and make available, on the basis of contributions from firms as well as from workers, pension schemes which facilitate the provision of pensions and make their payment possible. Of course, the earlier people enter these schemes, the more beneficial for themselves and, in many cases, these schemes have been introduced only when people were relatively advanced.

I believe all these aspects of the matter, as well as the question of making an effective immediate increase in respect of the State pensioners, should be considered. Some pensioners have the advantage of having families or relatives who are in a position to contribute to them.

The Deputy, of course, understands that there is another speaker to follow.

(Cavan): I am agreeable to Deputy Cosgrave having some of my time.

That, of course, applies only to a limited number of cases and, in the main, pensioners have an obligation and, indeed, the responsibility of maintaining themselves. Therefore, I would urge that the Minister should, sympathetically and in a practical way, review this system and consider it as a matter of urgency in whatever alterations may be necessary to improve the circumstances of the various categories of pensioners to which the State makes a contribution.

(Cavan): The Fine Gael Party put down this motion in order to try to extract from the Government a measure of justice for all pensioners in receipt of pensions out of moneys provided by the Exchequer—old age pensioners and State servants. I suppose it would really be too much to expect that the Government would this year do the right thing by these pensioners, but we certainly expected we would get some sort of a satisfactory assurance from the Minister for Finance that there was a new approach to the question of pensions for State servants—that the pensions of these people would have parity with current pensions or the current cost of living. Therefore, it is a source of considerable disappointment to learn that the Minister for Finance, who has just taken over, apparently intends to pursue the old policy of giving to these pensioners whatever is left, without any real regard to their interests or to the increase in the cost of living, or current salaries or pensions.

That is my interpretation of the Minister's statement when he said here last Wednesday, and I quote from volume 225, of the Official Report at columns 1486 and 1487:

My predecessor stated when he was speaking in this House on the 18th July 1962, that what we have been endeavouring to do in relation to pension increases is to disburse whatever money it may be possible to make available within the limits of the Budgetary conditions, to make good the depreciation in the value of the money caused by the rise in the cost living, and any further steps which it may be possible to take will be in that same direction, subject also to Budgetary consideration.

In other words, these pensioners are not to have their pensions increased in order to bring them up to current pensions or in order to compensate for the increase in the cost of living. They are not to have that done by right. They are to have it done only if there is any money left when the Minister for Finance has looked around to see on what he will spend money.

I say that is not good enough and it is particularly alarming that we should have such an expression from the Minister for Finance because, in this country, State servants must depend for their increase in pension upon the Minister for Finance who has power, under a recent Act of the Oireachtas, to increase or adjust their pensions by regulations. In most countries in the world, State servants have their pension rights tied to current pensions or to the cost of living. We, apparently, are determined to fall in line with Great Britain, against all the other countries in the world, to refuse to confer on State servants the right to get an increase in their pensions when the salaries of the positions they vacated are increased or when the cost of living increases. I say that is not good enough and it is a deplorable state of affairs that the new Minister, whom we might regard as "Mr. 1966", should have seen fit to come into this House and out the old theme again that the pensioners will be looked after within the limits of the Budget, if the money is there.

I think most emphatically—and I have thought it for years—that it is not good enough for the Minister to say that State pensions are fairly generous when considered in relation to civil pensions, pensions paid to people in industry and commerce. The Minister is hardly fair when he tries to get away on this case. As Deputy Cosgrave has pointed out, pensions in private employment are a comparatively recent innovation, with the exception of large employers of standing and generosity like Messrs. Guinness and Co., whilst State servants have always, as a matter of right and condition of employment, been entitled to pensions on retirement. The first Superannuation Act was enacted in this country as far back as 1834. It is time we got automatic machinery within the framework of the superannuation code to do justice to those people.

The Minister also made the point— I do not really know what force is in it —that in this country the pension is calculated on the last year of service, whereas in other countries the pension is calculated over a number of years. That may be so, and it may not be so, but it certainly does not prove anything, because if the Minister wants to go on and fall entirely into line with other countries, he will find that in this country the pension of a State servant is about 50 per cent of the salary, whereas in other countries it varies from 75 per cent to 78 per cent of the salary. In countries such as Austria, Belgium, France and Denmark, the pension is between 75 and 78 per cent of the salary at the time of retirement. Therefore it is not good enough for the Minister to throw in this red herring about the salary being calculated on the last year whereas in other countries it is calculated on three years.

The Government have a bad record so far as doing justice to State servants is concerned. They were in power from 1932 until 1948, and they never introduced during that period one solitary measure increasing the pensions of State servants. It was not until 1950 when Mr. Paddy McGilligan, then Minister for Finance, introduced——

Oh, my God!

(Cavan): Deputies may laugh.

I did not think the Deputy would mention him.

(Cavan): It was not until 1950 that Mr. McGilligan introduced the first Act increasing the pension of State servants.

The Deputy should be ashamed to mention his name in connection with pensions.

(Cavan): Deny it if you can.

Mr. McGilligan was one of the best Ministers ever to be in this House, and the Minister is jealous of him. If he had half his brains, he would get somewhere.

(Cavan): I have my pockets full of letters from Waterford complaining that these people were not paid their miserable 5/-.

He was the Scrooge of Irish politics.

The Minister is the Micawber.

(Cavan): They were promised a miserable 5/-last April, and it is a disgrace that only one out of every seven got it. The Minister knows that well. It is no wonder that he did not want to talk about old age pensions last Wednesday. When old age pensions were mentioned, the Minister, being a shrewder man than some Deputies sitting behind him, said he did not consider this motion relevant to old age pensions as it dealt with State pensions.

The temporary Government!

(Interruptions.)

(Cavan): The Minister wanted to get away from the old age pensions. I will leave the old age pensions on the note that it is a shabby confidence trick to publish in the papers and over the mass media of communications, in April and again in November, that there was an increase of 5/- a week in old age pensions, without qualification, when it turns out that only one in seven got it. That is something about which the Government cannot be proud.

In 1959, there were 5,068 State pensioners; 56 per cent of them were getting less than £200 a year; and 1,042 were getting £100 a year or less. The position has not materially changed since. As I said, the most alarming part of it is the Minister's general approach. If he had said: "We have no money this year but as soon as we get the money, we will do the decent thing by the State pensioners," we might not agree but we would understand his case. Last Wednesday he said he proposes to continue the policy which his predecessor enunciated in this House some years ago, that they will proceed to do what they can within the limits of the Budget; in other words, if there is anything left the pensioners will get it. That is not good enough.

I should like to deal with the question of Garda Síochána pensions which was dealt with by other speakers. There is one particular aspect with which I should like to deal, that is, the way in which Garda widows have been treated. They were left on miserably small pensions, but the climax was reached in 1964 when the Minister thought fit to give them an increase of 10/- a week in their pensions, and the net result of that operation was that their non-contributory old age pensions were reduced by 25/-a week. On the one hand, the Minister gave those people an increase of 10/-a week, and on the other, their widows' pensions were reduced by 25/- a week, leaving them with a net loss of 15/- a week. That calls for an explanation from the Minister and from the Government.

This Party intend to press this motion to a division, because we do not think the Minister has made any case against it. We do not believe the Minister has given any indication to the House that he intends to change his attitude in the years to come. Indeed, it is very depressing to find that when we have a new and comparatively young Minister for Finance, he comes in here and brings no new thinking in this particular sphere into his Department. He says he is prepared to adopt and to follow the unsatisfactory policy of his predecessors. This year so far there has been no adjustment whatever in the pensions of State servants.

The Deputy will appreciate that the time for the debate has concluded.

(Cavan): I do not think so. I think there is still some time to go.

The time remaining for the debate on this motion when we resumed it this evening was one hour and 30 minutes.

(Cavan): You may not have been in the Chair.

How many minutes does the Deputy require to complete what he has to say?

(Cavan): I really could not say: three minutes tomorrow.

The Government will not agree to that. We shall give the Deputy three minutes now.

On a point of order, Private Members' Business was ordered today for between 6 p.m. and 7.30 p.m. The debate began at 6.03 p.m. In the absence of agreement to the contrary, Private Members' Business may not continue after 7.30 p.m. Accordingly, we are entitled to three minutes tomorrow.

No. Three hours have been allowed for the debate. The three hours have now elapsed and it is the function of the Chair to put the question.

On a point of order, the Chair was occupied at 6 o'clock by the Ceann Comhairle. Deputy Sheridan continued the debate on the Vote for the Department of Justice until three minutes past six. This is common knowledge among Deputies. Accordingly, the time allotted for the debate on this motion this evening has not been used up. There are three minutes still to go and we are entitled to know——

The Chair does not agree. Deputy Fitzpatrick is entitled to three minutes in which to conclude and the Chair will allow him three minutes——

In the absence of agreement in the House, Private Members' Business may not continue after 7.30 this evening. With all respect, the Chair has no power to allow the debate on the motion to go beyond that time.

Deputy Fitzpatrick was called at 7.15 p.m. He was allowed 15 minutes in which to conclude. The 15 minutes have now concluded.

The Deputy was entitled to 20 minutes in which to conclude. At 13 minutes past seven, the Chair called on Deputy Fitzpatrick, the Ceann Comhairle being aware that he was entitled to 20 minutes and that the debate on the motion would conclude tomorrow. At that time, Deputy Fitzpatrick agreed to allow Deputy Cosgrave to use some of his time and accordingly Deputy Cosgrave spoke until 7.15 p.m. Deputy Fitzpatrick is still entitled to a full 18 minutes.

The Chair has already agreed that Deputy Fitzpatrick was entitled to 18 minutes. I have given permission to Deputy Fitzpatrick to speak for another three minutes. The Chair will put the question.

On a point of order, the Chair may not allow Private Members' Business to go beyond 7.30, in the absence of a vote of the House to that effect.

The Chair has ruled that when Deputy Fitzpatrick has concluded, the question will be put.

The Chair may not commit a breach of the rules of the House. With respect, we are not able to abide by that ruling and must insist that the Ceann Comhairle, who was in the House at 6 p.m. and is aware——

The Deputy is wasting the time of the House.

With respect, he is not.

If Deputy Fitzpatrick has nothing further to add, I shall put the question.

You are completely out of order and with respect, I ask you to send for the Ceann Comhairle.

Deputies

Chair, Chair.

Deputy Ryan may not attack the Chair in that fashion. I ask the Deputy to resume his seat or to withdraw from the House.

And I ask you to send for the Ceann Comhairle. I am asking you, with all respect to the rules of the House——

Deputies

Chair, Chair.

I have asked the Deputy to withdraw from the House. He is grossly disorderly.

I am unable to do so.

If the Deputy refuses to obey the Chair, I shall be forced to adjourn the House.

I cannot accept the ruling.

Standing Orders of the Dáil provide that there will be Private Members' Business from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m. The Ceann Comhairle ruled earlier that because Private Members' Business did not start until 6.03 p.m., there would be three minutes more allotted to this motion.

And the Chair agreed to that.

He did not rule that the three minutes were to be given after the conclusion this evening of the time allowed for Private Members' Business. He did not rule that Standing Orders be subjected to breach in that fashion. He said there were three minutes more for the motion and these three minutes could only be given tomorrow night.

I am ruling that when Deputy Fitzpatrick concludes, the Chair will put the question.

Under which of the Standing Orders? I am entitled to be told that.

Under Standing Order 87.

Which says that Private Members' Business shall be stopped at 7.30 p.m. With respect, the speaker had not concluded at 7.30 p.m. and was entitled, in accordance with the ruling of the Chair, to three minutes more.

Chair, Chair.

Mr. Barrett

Will the Deputy listen to the Chair for a change?

Deputy Fitzpatrick was called at 7.15 p.m. According to Standing Order 87, he was entitled to 15 minutes and the Chair at 7.30 p.m. was entitled to put the question.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

(Cavan): I have not concluded.

The Deputy has concluded as far as the Chair is concerned. He had 15 minutes.

Mr. Barrett

You yourself indicated that he had three minutes more.

Will the Deputy resume his seat?

(Cavan): Either I have three minutes or I have not.

Deputies

Order, order.

They are making a mockery of the Oireachtas.

Ask the Ceann Comhairle for a ruling.

I have ruled. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle is carrying out the rules approved by this House.

(Cavan): Simply on a point of order——

I shall not hear any more points of order. The question is: "That Dáil Éireann is of the opinion that in view of the steep rise in the cost of living and the difficulties created thereby for all pensioners, all pensions should be increased." That motion is in the names of Deputies Thomas J. Fitzpatrick (Cavan) and Ryan.

This is grossly out of order.

I am putting the motion.

Mr. Barrett

You yourself indicated to the House that there were three minutes more.

It is a gross breach of the Standing Orders of the House.

Mr. Barrett

You yourself indicated that there were three minutes more to go.

Deputies

Chair, Chair.

They do not want to hear the case for the pensioners. That is what is wrong. They are indifferent to everybody. They treat the pensioners like the farmers.

Mr. Barrett

The official records of the House will indicate that you yourself said Deputy Fitzpatrick had three minutes more. You have now reversed that ruling.

Those three minutes have been wasted.

Mr. Barrett

That is getting away from the point.

This side of the House strongly resents this.

I am putting the motion.

Question put and declared lost.
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