Vol. 226 No. 11
asked the Minister for Education if he will give the Dáil details of the proposal to build vocational schools through a consortium hereafter, with special reference to the personnel of the consortium; and whether opportunity will be offered to architects and builders outside the consortium to submit designs or tenders.
59.
asked the Minister for Education if his attention has been drawn to a report that a consortium of architects, structural, mechanical and electrical engineers and quantity surveyors all based in Dublin have been appointed by him consultants for the regional technical colleges in Cork, Waterford, Galway, Sligo and Dundalk; if he will make a statement on the matter; if the same consortium have been appointed in respect of the regional technical colleges at Limerick, Carlow and Athlone; and if appointments have not been made in respect of the projects at Limerick, Athlone and Carlow when he expects to make them.
With your permission, a Cheann Chomhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 58 and 59 together.
I have not received or made any proposals to build vocational schools through a consortium.
I would, however, refer the Deputies to the replies given by me to Parliamentary Questions Nos. 91 and 92 on 16th February in which I stated that Building Design Associates had been appointed by me as a consortium of Architects, Structural, Mechanical and Electrical Engineers, and Quantity Surveyors for the provision of the Regional Technical Colleges at Dundalk, Galway, Sligo and Waterford, and as consultants in respect of the Regional Technical Colleges to be provided at Athlone, Carlow, Cork and Limerick.
Am I to understand from the Minister now that he has no proposals to exclude architects and builders who do not belong to this body, advisory or otherwise, from tendering or submitting plans for schools which it is proposed to build and that the ordinary Board of Works procedure will be followed in which open tenders will be available and contracts awarded on the customary basis?
Yes, this consortium that I referred to in the reply to the questions are only dealing with what are called the colleges of technology and the other matters such as vocational schools and the other schools will be carried out with the usual procedure up to now. On the question of tenders these colleges of technology as with all other schools will be put up for public tender.
I take the Minister now to say that in respect of a certain limited number of technological colleges a consortium is being created which will be responsible for their planning and construction?
No, their planning and design and the invitation of tenders.
And there is no question of leaving the planning of these open to competition among the architectural profession? Is the Minister aware that this tendency to establish quasi-government consortia of an exclusive character of this kind is giving rise to a grave sense of public anxiety? To put it quite frankly and to give the Minister the opportunity of dealing with it openly and frankly, the question is—is there free access to this public work or is it being reserved for persons who are notoriously concerned in collecting funds for the Fianna Fáil Party?
I am not aware that there is grave public anxiety about this matter, but I have seen comments made by the very esteemed President of the Royal Institute of Architects of Ireland and also comments in newspapers as to the existence of this consortium. Might I say first of all the reason that I arrived at a decision to appoint a consortium was that this contract for these eight schools—the number has been approved by the Government—would cost anything of the order of £6 million or £7 million spread over a period. I cannot say that is the actual cost. I was faced with the problem that to appoint individual architects for each of these colleges would have been wasteful and costly in the extreme. Each of these architects and the other consultants on each college in the different regions would have had to do a tremendous amount of research and investigation and an examination of the type of college and design which should be incorporated in arriving at the type of structure itself. It is a highly specialised form of building and therefore I decided that what should be done was to appoint a consortium of people whom I deemed to be leaders in their respective professions who would do all the necessary research, establish a master plan on a modular basis and, they having done all that, the other colleges would be what I might refer to as a type of variation on a theme.
For instance, architects had already been appointed by the vocational committees in certain areas. Cork had made an appointment of a certain architect; Limerick had appointed an architect; Carlow had appointed an architect; Athlone had appointed an architect. I did not take any steps, though these are regional colleges, to terminate the appointments of such men. My Department suggested to the architects already appointed that instead of those four individual architects employing their own consultants, they should appoint collectively the consortium as their consultants because they were the people who had done the research and, therefore, knew what would be required.
I should further say that working together with the consortium was a steering committee of 15 members, all in industry or other fields, most of whom I do not know, from different parts of the country. They came together and considered the requirements in each area, what should be taught in each of the colleges of technology, with emphasis on the peculiar needs of the different regions. Finally, I should say, human nature being what it is, if a college were to be built in a certain area, a local man might feel he should get the work. However, these are regional colleges and the amount of design and investigation is highly specialised. I have been told by professional people that the decision I arrived at was a wise one and an economical one, that, in fact, it will result in very substantial savings on the ultimate cost.
The Minister has spoken of a modular basis and of a general theme.
Variations on a theme.
Do these two phrases include an appointment of ex-Ministers of the Government to directorships of the associate firms?
I beg your pardon?
Do those two formulae include the appointment of ex-members of the Government to directorships in associated firms?
Perhaps the Deputy would be more specific and name the people he may have in mind. I am not aware of any ex-members of any Government being on this consortium, or indeed on the steering committee——
Oh, no.
——or any ex-member of this House.
Would the Minister be good enough—as he should have done already—to provide the House with the personnel of the consortium?
The consortium architects are Michael Scott and Associates and Hooper and Mayne; the consulting engineers, structural, are Ove Arup and Company; the heating and services engineers are J. A. Kenny and Sons, Partners; and the quantity surveyors are Desmond McGreevy——
Ah, ah.
——and Colman Healy; the other associate architects with Scott are Stephenson and Gibney——
That is interesting.
I might say——
This looks like going on for another hour.
A certain suggestion has been made of gross political patronage.
That shocks the Minister's heart, I am sure.
I have no hesitation, all things being equal, in supporting people who support me or us.
Now we know.
I should like to say that all these men—this cannot be denied by any Deputy who cares to inquire—are outstanding in their respective professions. Ove Arup was awarded the Riba gold medal which is awarded only for outstanding work. It is not awarded annually: the last time it was awarded was, I think, six years ago.
You had to put one among them in order to cover the others.
Michael Scott and Associates are internationally known. Stephenson and Gibney are the firm of young architects, who incidentally qualified in Bolton Street, who won the international architectural competition for the ESB building and in the process, beat some of the well known professors of European architectural schools.
We have got what we wanted. You have said you support those who support you.
I qualified it by saying "all things being equal."
That was the burden of my allegation.
It was deliberately bypassed, and I am delighted the Taoiseach is listening.
The answer to Question No. 59 has been very interesting, I think you will agree.
It has been very long.
Long, detailed and——
All right. Question No. 60.
There was the unworthy allegation in the middle by the Deputy.
Did the Minister not say: "I will support those who support me"?
The unworthy bit was about the ex-Ministers being associated——
Why does the Deputy not enlarge on that allegation? Let us have some names.
The Minister provided them.
Let us have the names of the ex-Ministers. There was a sinister——
You said you supported those who supported you.
Let us have the names of the ex-Ministers.
You especially confessed——
Let us have the names. Let us have them and I will yield the floor to the Deputy——
I have elicited from the Minister the statement that he chose Stephenson, et cetera because that firm supported him.
The Deputy has made an allegation that this consortium was composed of ex-Ministers.
I did not.
Yes, the Deputy did.
I asked if the modular basis and the theme referred to by the Minister included the provision of directorships for ex-members of the Government of which he is now a member, and in his concluding remarks, the Minister said that as far as Stephenson and Gibney were concerned, he supported those who supported him. Let the public judge the rest.
Question No. 60.
I have not finished with this very important matter. When I was in the Board of Works, it was within my gift to make certain professional appointments in the building line and there was one professional man, whom I have no intention of naming now or, I hope, in the future, who was very closely related not only to a member of the Deputy's Party but to his Government at the time, and that professional man received about £870,000 worth of State work during the terms of office of that Coalition. He carried it out in an admirable manner. That self-same man came to me when I was in the Office of Public Works and complained that he was not getting sufficient State work and he suggested a certain amount of political patronage; shortly before I left the Board of Works, I gave him a contract worth, I think, about £300,000.
We all know there was a Contracts Committee in the Board of Works.
Deputy Sweetman is completely confused. This is a matter of professional advisers, professional appointments.
I understood it to be the Contracts Committee of the Board of Works.
That Committee deals with tenders and buildings. If the Deputy wants to discuss this at another time by way of putting down a motion, I would be quite willing. If the House likes to investigate the method of appointment, I will be co-operative.
