asked the Minister for Justice if permission was sought from Kilkenny County Council to close certain roads while seizures for rate arrears were taking place; and, if not, where the authority came from.
43.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Seizures for Rates Arrears.
42.
asked the Minister for Justice if his attention has been drawn to a report that Gardaí obstructed press photographers and threatened them with destruction of their photographic equipment; and what was their authority for such actions.
44.
asked the Minister for Justice if members of the Garda Síochána have a right in law to prevent a person using his own telephone while seizures for arrears of rates were taking place.
45.
asked the Minister for Justice if Gardaí in the execution of a civil decree may obstruct citizens from the use of their telephones.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 42 to 45 together.
I wish to make clear that, in replying to these questions, I am not to be taken as accepting that members of the Garda Síochána did what is alleged. I am prepared, for the purposes of the reply, to assume that they did so.
Permission for the closing of roads was not sought by the Garda Síochána from Kilkenny County Council, nor was there are reason why permission should be sought.
As for the rest, as the House will appreciate, the question of what legal authority exists in any particular set of circumstances is a matter on which only the courts can give an authoritative ruling. In the absence of an authoritative decision by the courts, I can only express an opinion. That opinion is that, faced with a background of six months of illegal agitation which is now openly admitted by the NFA to have been illegal—and faced with an accumulation of evidence, some of which I put on the record here last week, that the enforcement of the orders of the court would be resisted in an organised way, the Garda Síochána had not only a right but a clear duty to take all steps necessary to prevent acts of obstruction of or interference with, the execution of the orders of the court.
We will slide over all that.
Is the Minister aware that we have many men serving jail sentences at present, some of them for as long as six months, for taking part in a partial road blockade? Is he also aware that there is a man now in prison who did not take part in the road blockade but whose two tractors were used and who is at present on hunger strike? Is the Minister aware that his relatives have been refused information as to what jail he is in? Can the Minister make any comment on that? They inquired at Portlaoise and were told that he was not there and they inquired at Mountjoy——
That seems to be a separate question.
I have several more questions to ask, if I may?
Under which one does the question of the hunger strike arise?
Under the five.
There is nobody on hunger strike.
May I ask further supplementary questions? The Minister did not say anything about the assault on cameramen. When is the Minister going to answer that? I want to ask a few supplementary questions.
(Interruptions.)
Order.
What I am saying is that in the course of executing orders of the court, I will not inquire into the merit or otherwise of the court orders. My function is to see that they are executed and that the orders of the courts are obeyed. Anything that has to be done in order to execute these orders has to be done and everything in reason, was in my opinion, carried out on this occasion.
Is the Minister satisfied that in the case of the two photographers, both of them people who were invited to the Comerford farm, one of the two had his arm twisted behind his back and was ejected: the second man standing on the steps to take a shot was told by an inspector of the Garda that if he did not get down, he would knock himself and the camera off the steps? Is the Minister aware that the Irish Press car was stopped two miles from where the seizure was taking place and that the occupant was told that if he asked any further questions, his car would be confiscated and that he would be thrown into the lorry, and that this occurred in circumstances where there was no resistance and in which the organisation concerned had asked the people not to resist?
Over the past few months we have been asked to deal with an organisation which, judging by what we had from them on radio and television and in the newspapers in regard to much of what has emanated from this source, I should like to see it being proved in court in an authoritative manner.
Is the Minister now inferring that the press photographers who have made the allegations, uttered untruths?
(Interruptions.)
I am making no reference to them.
The question Deputy Clinton asked arises out of information that was furnished to him by the journalists and the Minister in reply said the people who furnished that information were not reliable.
I should like the information to be furnished to me.
There were journalists from the Kilkenny People and the Cork Examiner. There were four or five journalists ejected.
Is it now the Minister's intention to inform the House that gardaí under his control may act as if under French law and that in fact a man who goes to his telephone is presumed guilty of being about to do something wrong and is therefore not allowed to do so? Is a man who wants to rear his family by using a press camera now presumed to be doing something wrong, to be assaulted and therefore the victim of French law, that is, that he is in fact guilty before he does anything? Is that the way you are dealing with the NFA and the press photographers?
That is the way I am dealing with illegal agitation and with court orders being flouted in a widespread way. I fully support any necessary action taken by the gardaí to deal with this particular case of agitation.
Was there any evidence on the occasion, which is the subject of certain questions by Deputy Clinton and me, that there was any illegal action being taken by Mr. Gibbons? There was illegal action taken by the gardaí when those people were stopped using their telephone—I presume they paid their telephone bill—and before, in fact, photographs were taken. The Irish Press car was stopped two miles away from the scene.
During the past six months we have been inundated with mischievous propaganda from the press agency of the NFA who in an organised way have carried on a campaign of press relations directed at usurping the functions of the State.
Can I ask the Minister if he can state publicly, for the benefit of the Flood family, where Mr. J.J. Flood is in jail? The family cannot find out. They have tried to find out since Tuesday.
That is a separate question.
It is a fundamental question.
(Interruptions.)
Will the Deputy please control himself? I am calling the next question.
Where is Mr. J.J. Flood in jail? Tell the House.
His son was in this building today trying to find out but he could not find out.
They have been up in Mountjoy and they could not find out. They sought him in Portlaoise but they were told he was not there.
Surely a family is entitled to hear where their father is in jail?
The Deputy is only trying to cause trouble.
This man's family are entitled to know where he is kept in jail.
If the Deputy will not resume his seat, I will ask him to leave the House.
(Interruptions.)
It is a well-known fact in this country that there are thugs and blackguards in the Fianna Fáil Party who have been let out of jail by the Minister for Justice.
I would ask Deputy L'Estrange, who is most disorderly, to leave the House.
You must first ask me to sit down and then you can ask me to leave the House. If you do not ask me that, I will not do as you ask.
The Deputy must learn the rules of procedure.
I know what they are. You must first ask me to resume my seat. You did not ask me to do so. You asked me to leave the House without first asking me to resume my seat.
(Interruptions.)
Will the Minister tell the House where Mr. J.J. Flood is in jail?
(Interruptions.)
The Ceann Comhairle will be sent for.
An Ceann Comhairle took the Chair.
In the course of questions, Deputy L'Estrange has been repeatedly disorderly. I asked the Deputy to leave the House and he refused to obey the order of the Chair.
With respect and on a point of order——
I cannot discuss anything. I am dealing with the report of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.
Before you give a ruling, would you allow me to say something?
No. The Ceann Comhairle is dealing with the conduct of Deputy L'Estrange. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle has made a report to me. I am dealing with that now.
Are we not allowed to ask a question about that?
The Deputy must have respect for the Chair.
Listen to the Chair.
I have more respect for the Chair than many of the Deputies over there.
I was not asked to resume my seat.
The Leas-Cheann Comhairle has reported to me that Deputy L'Estrange disobeyed the order of the Chair.