asked the Minister for Education if his attention has been drawn to a statement by a commission set up to formulate policy for Protestant secondary education in regard to the financing of Protestant schools; if he is satisfied that a case exists for special financial help by the State to such schools, as the funds available for educational purposes in such schools do not compare favourably with those of Catholic schools; and if he will cause special examination to be made of the case.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Financing of Protestant Schools.
52.
Mr. O'Malley
I have seen the statement referred to in the question. I should like to make it clear that, so far as State assistance is concerned, Protestant schools are treated at least as favourably as Catholic schools, and in many instances are treated more favourably because of the nature of their problems. This has been acknowledged by the Secondary Education Commission and the Protestant authorities generally.
In the matter of the free post-primary education scheme special consideration was given to the position of Protestant schools. If the general scheme had been applied to these schools, practically no Protestant pupils would have benefited. In order, therefore, to ensure that Protestants would be treated equitably in the matter of benefit under the scheme, a special arrangement was made whereby a Commission representing the schools under Protestant management is to be paid a lump sum which will be distributed by the Commission in grants towards the school fees of the pupils most in need of such assistance. The lump sum will be calculated at the maximum rate of £25 per pupil in respect of an overall proportion of Protestant day pupils equal to the overall proportion of Catholic day pupils receiving free education.
The Minister does agree that the Protestant secondary schools have problems which do not arise in the case of Catholic secondary schools? In view of that, would he not see to it that the allocation of money to the Protestant schools is more generous because of the extra commitments, so to speak? The Catholic secondary schools have ways and means of raising money which the Protestant secondary schools have not. Is that not so?
Mr. O'Malley
The Government gave a very great deal of consideration to this matter. In actual fact, it would be incorrect to suggest that the Protestant schools have been dealt with in any less favourable way than the Catholic schools. In fact, some of the Catholic schools will not get the full £25 per pupil for two years. All the Protestant schools, on the same basis as the allocation to the Catholic schools, get the £25 forthwith. The other problem is that the Protestant schools find themselves in a very awkward position——
Agreed.
Mr. O'Malley
——one of the main reasons being that the religious in the Catholic schools — priests, brothers and sisters — plough back their salaries while the Protestant schools have not such a source of income. It is only fair to point out also that a very high percentage of Catholic schools came into this scheme at great sacrifice to themselves. Then, again, there are other groups of voluntary committees in certain schools — not a great many — who are assisting the schools which had incurred capital debts before favourable grants, let us say, were given by the State. Naturally, we have given this every consideration. I think the Secondary Education Commission for Protestant schools and the Protestant authorities themselves are satisfied. Indeed, I may say that his Grace, the Protestant Archbishop of Dublin, Most Reverend Dr. Simms, very graciously called personally on me and thanked me and asked me to convey his thanks to the Government for the equitable manner in which he believed the State had treated the minority religion in this matter.
If any problem should arise, I am sure the Minister's office door is always open for them to go in again?
Mr. O'Malley
Yes.
To a certain extent, is the Minister not abdicating his responsibility inasmuch as he is handing over a sum of money to be disbursed as they think fit? In certain instances, there is dissatisfaction notwithstanding the satisfaction the Minister has told us exists in the mind of His Grace the Archbishop, Most Reverend Dr. Simms. Would the Minister not think that the equality situation which he has portrayed is hardly sufficient when, in most areas, the numbers of Protestant children are such that it is much more expensive to provide them with the same level of education as Catholics where there is a larger number of children available for each class?
Mr. O'Malley
It is quite true to say that the Protestants find themselves in an awkward situation, due to dwindling numbers, and so on. This was one of the basic difficulties. The Deputy suggested that I am abdicating my responsibility.
Without criticising the Minister, he is doing so to a certain extent.
Mr. O'Malley
It would just not be possible for my Department to distribute the grant in the same manner as we do to the Catholic schools. We had a round table conference with the representatives of the different minority religions represented through their Commission. When this grant was made, and the principle accepted by them, I did not say: "You have to do this." In fact, if they come back and say: "We find it quite impossible", a new position will arise. The bulk grant to the Protestant school authorities was given on the understanding that it would be administered by the Secondary Education Commission for the Protestant Schools, which would devise an equitable system to distribute money to the pupils who require it most.
I have got an assurance from the Commission — because I saw these statements in the press in regard to the anxiety of the Protestant parents, many of whom wrote to me while others wrote to the newspapers, or called parents' committees together — that they gave long and careful consideration to the best way of distributing the grant. They came to the conclusion that the manner in which they were acting was the only manner in which they could act in order to ensure an equitable distribution, taking account of the varying circumstances of the pupils and their families. For instance, my note says that in the case of the Counties Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan, where the largest proportion of the Protestant community resides, over 90 per cent of the applicants received grants. I have no doubt that a satisfactory solution will be arrived at.
Is it not true that whereas the question of a child's parents' income in the majority religion, the Roman Catholic religion, does not arise, what does arise is what school the child is attending? From what the Minister says, the distribution of the grant to the minority religions is being done by this committee on the basis of the greatest need and in fact, as far as the minority religions are concerned, there is a means test, whereas there is no such means test but the question of school attendance as far as the majority religion is concerned? The reason I am raising this matter is that I am aware of grave disquiet on the part of certain of the minority religions in this respect. Some of those represented on this commission may be quite satisfied but a minority of that minority group are certainly very dissatisfied. I would ask the Minister to look again at this in the light of representations which I think he will receive.
Could the Minister give the House an undertaking that the Protestant schools will not be treated less favourably than catholic schools?
Mr. O'Malley
Of course, this is already happening.
It may be that there are special cases for which more money is needed.
Mr. O'Malley
The basic point is that when the Protestant schools get a grant through the commission — and it was represented to us that these people are the people who know the circumstances of their community which has representatives on the commission — those schools, it should be remembered, are not giving free education. We talk about a means test for the Protestant school child——
You have created a different method.
Mr. O'Malley
The Deputy referred to the Roman Catholic children. Grants are only given in the Catholic schools where education is available to the child at no cost to his parents. On the other hand, in the case of the Protestant schools, due to the position which obtained, be it historical or religious — there is no point in going into that; I have given the reasons for the ploughing back of money by religious — their fees must needs be very high compared with those of the Catholic schools. In fact, when this Commission distributes this grant to the best of its ability on a means test, I would still impress on the Deputy that this is being paid by the State and yet the schools are not giving free education. The parents still have to contribute. Finally, I would say that the Commission has given substantial grants in the case of poorer Protestant families. It is a difficult subject and a delicate subject and it is difficult to deal with it in depth at Question Time. May I assure the House, because I know everybody is interested in this matter, that it will be seen to be equitably and justly administered? I am at all times ready to meet the Commission and representatives of the parents, and indeed I have done so, and I am sure that after these growing-pains, things will work out in a satisfactory way.
Are we to take it that the Minister is prepared to meet representatives of dissatisfied parents?
Mr. O'Malley
I have done so.
The Minister is prepared to meet further groups, if they desire to meet him?
Mr. O'Malley
There would be no point in meeting splinter groups. Here in Dublin they formed a committee of parents from some hundreds who attended that night. I appreciate from the numbers who attended that there is a genuine anxiety and dissatisfaction in many instances.
That is why we put down the question. We are very grateful to the Minister for keeping the matter under active consideration.