asked the Minister for Education the number of classes in primary schools in Dublin in which there were more than 50 pupils in February, 1967.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Dublin Primary School Classes.
10.
In the Greater Dublin area, there were in February, 1967, 287 classes in national schools in which there were more than 50 pupils. However, the Department's inspectors have instructions to seek in all such cases a re-organisation of classes so as to ensure that classes are kept under 50. Where this may involve the appointment of an additional teacher or the provision of extra accommodation, arrangements are made accordingly.
These cases are at present the subject of the re-organisation referred to.
The Minister mentioned "under 50". Does the Minister consider 49, 48 or 47 a suitable size of class and would he not further agree that in classes of this number, it is impossible for a teacher to impart any knowledge and in fact the teacher could be described in those circumstances as little better than a babysitter?
I think that is a slight exaggeration. The Deputy will recall that not so many years ago very large classes were common, particularly in Dublin. The present Minister for Labour, when Minister for Education, set out to remedy this situation and set a target of 50 as the maximum we were to achieve as soon as possible, that all classes were to be under 50. This does not mean that when we have achieved this target, we will stop there, but it is a realistic target in the circumstances in which we operate. I would point out to the Deputy that of the 287 classes to which I referred, 124 of them contain 51 pupils, 75 of them contain 52 pupils and 41 of them contain 53 pupils, so considerable progress has been made. I think it would be practicable to achieve the target of having no more than 50 in classes and then see what new target we could set.
Would the Minister not agree that it is impossible for children to take advantage of secondary education if they have to be subjected to those conditions in regard to their primary education? Could the Minister give us any indication as to what the Department or he considers to be a proper size class and when do the Department hope to achieve that?
I could not give the Deputy that information offhand but I would repeat that it would seem sensible to aim at achieving a target of having 50 the number in classes and then see where we can go from there. I would also remind the Deputy that while it is desirable that classes should be smaller than that, many people who have benefited from secondary education were educated in classes of over 50.
They were exceptions.
The Minister and I.
It is doubtful whether you have benefited but we will not go into that.