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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Dec 1967

Vol. 231 No. 14

Adjournment (Christmas Recess) (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That the Dáil at its rising on Thursday, 14th December, do adjourn until Wednesday, 31st January, 1968.
—(The Taoiseach).

As I was saving before Question Time, the tenants of corporation houses have recently got an opportunity to purchase their own homes. Labour Deputies here today have said that they would contest this right. They may do it in such a way that it will appear to tenants as if they are acting in their interests, but the fact is that a scheme has been offered to corporation tenants whereby, for the first time, they will have the right to own their own homes. The cost is being analysed and the matter has been discussed by tenants and tenants' associations and public representatives. The Housing Committee of Dublin Corporation recently decided to issue a circular to tenants showing how the tenant purchase scheme would operate. This scheme was passed at the Housing Committee without a dissenting voice being raised. On that committee there are members of various political Parties. Yet, Deputies say in this House that they will contest this scheme. I can understand the feelings of Deputies whose desire is to prevent a certain section of the people from having their own homes. These Deputies feel happy when they can talk about increases in differential rents, and so on.

The Minister and the Taoiseach should ensure that the tenant purchase scheme is put into operation at the earliest possible moment so that the tenants will get a reasonable deal. The City Manager has outlined the proposal to members of the Housing Committee. One Deputy who spoke here today said he will oppose it tooth and nail. I want to assure tenants of Corporation houses that, tooth and nail, we will fight to see that their right to purchase their homes is established. For too long lip service has been given to this matter. There have been hundreds of motions in the names of councillors of various political Parties presented to Dublin Corporation. Now we are told that some Deputies will oppose this scheme. No doubt there will be a smokescreen created and they will allege that they are working in the tenants' interests. This is an effort to keep down people who are already down. We will ensure that social justice is done in Dublin and that people who wish to purchase their homes will be given every opportunity to do so.

I have dealt with the problem of housing and have pointed out in no uncertain terms the situation that existed ten years ago. I went back ten years because Deputy Dunne went back ten years. Deputy Larkin described the disgraceful situation that existed in the dying days of the last inter-Party Government when even people with TB or people living in slum clearance areas could not be rehoused.

Members of the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party have stated repeatedly that when they left office there was an adequate supply of housing. Deputy Dillon added 1,500. The book does not state that. According to the book, people could not get houses. We have advanced from that position. I have given some indication of the building programme of Dublin Corporation. Other Deputies have described the scheme that the Minister for Local Government in the last few months has indicated should be vigorously pursued in order to acquire the necessary building land. We are aware of the concessions he has made and of the great breakthrough there has been on the part of the Minister for Local Government. Many Deputies on both sides of the House and members of the Corporation and of other local authorities have congratulated the Minister on the manner in which he has provided the necessary services.

One Deputy here today did not want to say that he was against the Grand Canal development scheme but he did not say that he was in favour of it. He wants to ride two horses. This Deputy does not want to open up land or provide services because he knows that where services are not provided the people will be disgruntled. The Minister has given an assurance that the Grand Canal will be developed in order to relieve the situation temporarily. Later, the canal can be restored. Houses are more important than swans to the people of Dublin. We want houses, factories, industries in our area and we will get them. The Minister has stated that the necessary sewerage facilities will be provided so that land may be available for the development of industry and housing. I have no doubt that members of political Parties will create a smokescreen and will put down motions in council asking for further investigation into the temporary closure of the Grand Canal. People who have approved in committee of the closure of the canal have yielded to the various pressures opposing it, so that they will obtain some support from certain sections of the community. We stand for the housing of our people first. There are various factors to be considered in relation to the canal, such as its beauty and its value as an amenity. The Minister and the Government have given an assurance that it will be closed temporarily, and that assurance is good enough. If there is one thing the people can be assured of it is the word of the Government. There are other factors in relation to building in the city that have been mentioned by misguided members of the Opposition. I do not know where Fine Gael got their figures, but they certainly did not get them from any reliable source.

The figures for housing?

Yes. Deputy Fitzpatrick gave figures which were designed to give a false impression to the people.

I shall read them if the Deputy sits down before half-past four.

I might give you a further lesson from Volume 160 of the Dáil Debates, which I know you do not want to hear. I have dealt with the housing situation in Dublin, the projections as regards houses under construction, the opportunity that tenants and people on the waiting list will have in the future to purchase their own homes, not alone under the corporation tenant purchase scheme but under the purchase scheme for newly-erected houses. This is going ahead in spite of many pressures that have been brought to bear on the local authority. I am quite conscious that we have as Minister for Local Government a man who is ever conscious of his responsibilities to the people and who has a progressive, social outlook, particularly in regard to housing development.

I should like to deal now with a question that has been bandied about in this House from time to time, that of the Minister for External Affairs, Deputy Aiken. Deputy Dunne spent a considerable time here today, as did many other members of the Labour and Fine Gael Parties, speaking about Deputy Aiken. I was inclined to think that Deputy Dunne should have been looking for Deputy O'Connell, but I shall take a more constructive line on the matter.

Deputy O'Connell will be a thorn in your side again.

The Opposition do not seem to care what is happening in the world at large. They have no regard for the loss of human life that occurred in World War II, the millions who lost their lives in North Korea and later in Vietnam. The Minister for External Affairs is making an effort to ensure that there is no deterioration in the situation, but it would seem from the cheap jibes and jeers of the members of the Labour and Fine Gael Parties—of course Deputy Dillon threw a few of them from time to time—in relation to the Minister for External Affairs, that they are living in a world of their own. The world is a very big place, and our influence at home and abroad has been felt and honoured in many ways. The fact that we have troops in Cyprus and in the Congo in the interest of world justice and peace, is an indication of our sincerity. We do not hear the people who are serving in the United Nations force making these cheap remarks. It certainly does no honour to those who lost their lives in the Congo to deride the efforts of the Minister for External Affairs to promote peace. If the Opposition want to indulge in pothole politics and to consider only the problems that arise in their own consituencies, there is no reason why those who have a broader outlook should not take an interest in world affairs. Ireland has a part in the United Nations in case of a further outbreak. We intend to play our part to the full, whether the Opposition Members like it or not.

The Members opposite seem to be against decentralisation. They have been referring to the unfortunate people being uprooted from their own homes and sent to the West. It is quite clear that the Parties opposite have absolutely no interest in the West or in decentralisation. They were interested in decentralisation in 1956-57 when they decentralised the building workers to Birmingham, London and various other places outside the country. That is the type of decentralisation they were concerned about, and that is clearly brought out in the sections I read earlier today.

You sent a few of them out in 1962.

I do not think there is any need for me to repeat what I said about the gradual reduction in the numbers of building trade workers employed in housing schemes and the gradual laying-off of the workers concerned. When the Government indicate they intend to do something positive, the Opposition Members create all sorts of smokescreens, talking about the unfortunate people who are to be turfed off to the west of Ireland. The policy of decentralisation was explained by the Taoiseach and other members of the Government, as to what will happen and as to whether it will happen to more than the few that are already included. There is plenty of room for decentralisation. We are concerned with the country as a whole. Dublin is not Ireland and the sooner that is realised the better.

On the Department of Labour, Deputy Corish spoke about the pronouncements of the young Labour Deputies. I said earlier they were disappointed because of the progress in the past 12 months. The fact that the post-primary scheme has been launched shows clearly our desire to promote free education. Our policy slogan is: a fair chance for every child. We are concerned not alone with the bright child, as was indicated in the policy of one of the Parties, but also with the average child and the retarded child. We are concerned with all the children. The Labour Party policy indicated that the bright child should get better attention. We are concerned that all the children of the nation should get fair treatment in regard to education.

Last night Deputy Coogan spoke about the tintawn on the ceiling of the restaurant. He must have been standing on his head. He said nothing was free. Of course nothing is free but apparently it is only now he realises that. When the opportunity is presented to him and he knows money is required to improve services, provide better educational facilities and certain amenities for the aged, he loses his way, as do the other members of his Party, when it comes to voting that money. Indeed, that is why the Opposition are over there. We will have to erect signposts at the top of the stairs indicating "Right" and "Left" to try to help them to find their way. Certainly Deputy Coogan has lost his way. A group of people in the Public Gallery who were listening to him told me they got a good laugh last night; they said it was better than the Abbey. The Playboy of the Western World! His contribution was the best comedy in recent years. If Deputy Coogan has some serious suggestions to make, I know the Taoiseach would take note of them. Far from making any constructive suggestions, Deputy Coogan cast himself in the role of the clown. His comments certainly did not do justice to the House or to some members of it, including the Minister for External Affairs.

With regard to the Department of Labour, wonderful progress has been made by that Department. The establishment of the Department was a concrete expression of the Government's desire to ensure that the workers get a fair crack of the whip. It is the desire of the Government that workers should get all the aids necessary to enable them to bear the pressures of this technological age and the consequential changes in the industrial sphere. The function of the Department of Labour is to solve these problems for the workers and surely its very establishment is an indication of the goodwill of the Government where the workers are concerned. The work done so far has been praised here on many occasions by Members of this House. We have had the retraining Act, the Redundancy Bill and yesterday we had the Bill providing compensation for the workers who have lost their employment in Dundalk. Surely that is abundant evidence of the Minister's efforts to relieve the pressures? The Conditions of Employment Act is being amended to meet present-day requirements and the pressures now being exerted on workers because of the various changes that have taken place and the changes that probably will take place in the future. Other legislation necessary to relieve the plight of workers will come in due course. On yesterday's Order Paper we saw a new Industrial Relations Bill.

Over the past few days, statements have been made in this House which could do grave disservice to the employees in Dundalk. As a result of those statements made here by a Labour Deputy certain members, or a member, of the concern in Dundalk are, or is, now having second thoughts about the provision made to meet the situation there.

That is a darned lot of nonsense. What the dickens would the Deputy know about what is happening in Dundalk? Ask the Minister for External Affairs, Frank Aiken. He represents it.

I know the Deputy is perturbed.

I am not a bit perturbed, but I hate lies.

I know what has happened.

I know a great deal more about it than the Deputy does.

There have been a great many more irresponsible statements here on many occasions.

The Deputy is qualifying it now.

Irresponsible statements do a disservice to the workers. Our aim is to protect the workers and to safeguard their employment. All the legislation introduced by the Minister for Labour is designed to protect them from the blast of free trade.

Again, we have the Department of Industry and Commerce concerned about the provision of factories and workshops in order to ensure that there will be employment for all our workers. Down through the years, the provision of employment has been one of the main objectives of Fianna Fáil policy. That policy has been severely criticised on many occasions, sometimes perhaps justly, but more often unjustly. Looking at what has been achieved by Fianna Fáil in the past, no one can fault them for what they have done to protect the workers. The only really serious efforts to provide employment were made by the Department of Industry and Commerce under a Fianna Fáil Government. During the regime of the inter-Party Government there was nothing but disruption. I would be interested to find any indication of industrial development of any kind during the period in office of the inter-Party Government.

Look through the debates and the Deputy will find it.

I have searched and failed to discover any. Instead of establishing industries, they destroyed them.

The very first step in industrialisation came from the Labour Party.

I am sure that there is no other country in the world in which trade union leaders when in government would close down industries. But that happened here. I am probably the only trade unionist in the House at the moment and, because of that, I should like to say a few words about what happened out in Inchicore. The chassis factory is in my constituency. I knew the hopes and desires of the skilled and semi-skilled workers in that area. The project came to a standstill under the inter-Party Government and these men had to emigrate. Deputy Dillon was a member of the Cabinet and he must have agreed to that destruction of employment. Some of the workers who were then compelled to emigrate have since returned to good employment under a Fianna Fáil Government. I do not hold this against Deputy Dillon and his colleagues. They had their problems in regard to bargaining in the Cabinet, but it was the unfortunate workers who suffered. I can forgive the Fine Gael Party for everything but the reduction of 1/- in the old age pension.

Some of the machinery at Inchicore was sold as scrap in my constituency. It took only three years and in that time the machinery was in packing cases in Jamestown Road and it eroded and rusted away until it was fit only for scrap. If they even had put a roof over it, it could have been used for productive purposes later and to give badly needed work in the engineering industry. I know quite a lot about that because I did work for a time in that section and what happened at that time was a national disaster. The failure of the inter-Party Government at that time was the greatest blight that ever struck this country since the failure of the potato crop in Black '47. Many of the men who left the country at that time will never return, but they will never forgive the people who were responsible for their having to go.

The inter-Party Government also sold out the transatlantic air service and by doing that threw a considerable number of Irishmen on the market. They deliberately put people out of employment and at that time there was no talk about redundancy payments or a Redundancy Act. People just got one week's notice and one week's pay and out they went. The position was that they went into work on the Monday morning, expecting their notice on the Friday evening. Not alone did the selling of the Constellations mean a reduction in the staff of Aer Lingus but it cut us out of valuable air routes and out of the ground floor advantage that we had among the transatlantic services. These people know that the transatlantic service is paying now and they also know that if we had been in it from that time, the profits would be much greater.

There were other important aspects to the selling of the Constellations. There was a Lockheed repair depot at Shannon which would have serviced aircraft from all over Europe but that depot was moved to Paris when the Constellations were sold. That meant that other people, skilled people, lost their employment and had to emigrate. They must have been very found of the Turks at that time because they even sold equipment to the Turks. It is pathetic to think of the manner in which they discarded so many workers. No wonder the Labour benches are deserted here today. They know the foul crimes they committed at that time. Deputy Clinton and Deputy Belton were not here at that time and if they were, they would not have supported such action because they are decent men. I would appeal to them now to take some interest in the workingman and see that his interests will be protected, to ensure that what happened in the period of the first inter-Party Government will never be allowed to happen again.

We are aware that some industries have found it difficult to get off the ground and that some are still having difficulties. We also recognise that some industries have failed in the past as some politicians have failed in the past, but while we are here, we will do our best to build up industry wherever possible, despite the criticisms and objections of people inside and outside the House. These criticisms are typical of the Opposition and are directed towards engendering suspicions in the minds of the people. From what has been said here today by some Opposition speakers, one would think that to live in Ballymun one would need an insurance policy so as to have something left when the planes took the roofs off the flats.

I know men who have been led astray by the suspicions engendered by the Opposition and the reason for this action on their part is that they wish these particular industries to fail. Because of particular questions put down here in the House by Members of the Opposition, some industries have failed, some have been on the verge of failure and have only been saved by the enlightened thought and action of the Government. I would appeal to the Opposition to desist from this type of activity and act in a responsible manner. It is better to build up the confidence of our people in our own industries than to put down Parliamentary Questions which only serve to engender suspicion in the minds of consumers and people placing contracts with Irish firms. I know of one concern which was reasonably sure of a number of large contracts and, because of questions in the House, the option on these contracts was withdrawn because they felt that there was a dicey situation. They felt there was a likelihood that the firm would close down and would not be able to fulfil its commitments.

What I would ask for here is assistance and not destructive criticism. We should have a common interest here in developing jobs for our people. We should be co-operating on the basis of what is best for the workers and we should assist them where possible. There are not two classes here or three classes. There are only Irish people seeking employment and let us give them assistance if at all possible in order to relieve the unemployment position where it exists and where we can help. I would appeal for that co-operation and for the elimination of the stupid approach of the past, injecting suspicions in the minds of management. Sometimes the minds of management were contaminated and management began to have doubts when they heard of politicians putting down Parliamentary Questions.

As I said before, some industries failed and some will fail in the future. We always will have failures. They have not failed for the want of Government assistance. Technical and financial assistance has been produced in order to ensure that many industries would keep the wheels turning. We have heard the Government being condemned for assisting industry, for endeavouring to ensure the production of jobs. You may condemn them but in the future you will condemn yourselves for condemning them. The people, if there is a genuine effort made, and if there is a sincerity about it, will give you their confidence. That is what we have done over the years. Grants have been made available in many forms, adaptation grants and so on. Some industries have not availed of them; some of them were advised not to avail of them. As far as the development of industry and the production of jobs both in industry and elsewhere is concerned, the Government have made every effort and will continue to do so, despite any opposition that may come from the many quarters to which I have referred.

I know that the Taoiseach has a special interest in the Department of Labour and in the Department of Industry and Commerce. He has a special interest in the workers. His attitude towards apprentices and towards the Apprenticeship Act was in no small way responsible for opening up new fields in relation to apprentices. That Act eliminated the baby farming that went on in many industries and put training schemes and the necessary qualifications on a proper basis. While the regulations now in operation debar some children from the right to become apprentices because of the qualifications, the educational qualifications and so on, yet this scheme was welcomed as a good scheme because it would produce a better type of technician and worker to meet the ever-increasing technical changes that have taken place and are taking place. People who agreed here on this, and elsewhere, and who applauded it then went around the country talking to the mothers and fathers of children who could not become apprentices saying: "What more could you expect from the Fianna Fáil Party? They brought in this Act, we did not.". They had applauded it as a great step forward but nevertheless they adopted this other attitude. It is that type of attitude that has them where they are and where they will be for a long time to come. It would be in their own interests to change their attitude and to approach things in a realistic and honest way.

We know the interest which the Taoiseach has in industrial development, just as the Minister for Industry and Commerce has an interest in it, and we are aware of the efforts they are making. I would ask for co-operation to ensure that projects which are both desirable and necessary in industry are brought to fruition and that Deputies should give whatever assistance they can in this regard. Every constructive effort made now on behalf of the workers will pay dividends in the future.

There are just a few other items with which I wish to deal. There have been a number of references, funny and otherwise, over a period, to Taca and we on this side of the House are afraid to mention this organisation. Certainly, it is a more respectable way of getting money than some of the bun fights we saw during the Presidential election, or the manner in which some political levies are imposed on and collected from trade unions. We know that these bun fights took place and some of them did not add any distinction to the members concerned. The £10 plates and the champagne parties we heard about are fair enough but in some of the Corporation schemes they stooped to the lowest possible level during the Presidential campaign. The bun fights will go down in the history of the nation and something on which they will not look back with pride. I blame the local organisers to a certain extent, but some lead must have come from the top. In regard to the political levy I should say that we want to have a free trade union movement here, free in every sense, from domination or influence by governments of any type, whether they are Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or Labour, and which will work only in the interests of the workers without any ties. In some cases we have not got that. We have a very large volume of trade union officials who are responsible men and act in a responsible manner but we also have a small group who are concerned about their own existence in political life and who are not concerned about anything else. They have a vested interest in this levy and for that reason I can see why they are perturbed when this matter is raised. We on this side of the House are not supposed to mention it, according to some people who claim that they have a right over it. They have no right over anything. We in this House have a right to decide what is best in the interests of the country and we have taken the necessary steps to ensure——

There is still only one trade union official here.

—— that the workers are protected.

(Interruptions.)

You did not get appointed.

I have a clear card. I do not know about the Deputy.

I have a clear card, do not worry about that. It is a trade union card and I never scabbed.

I did not either.

That is a doubtful matter.

Overpaid.

Is the Deputy getting legal advice?

I do not want to go too far into this matter and have any of you blushing with schame but, on occasions, I am tempted to make exposures in this House that I do not want to make.

Go ahead and make them.

You can go deep enough and be dirty enough, and if you have anything to say, say it.

It is part of political life.

Perhaps by your standards. Disclose anything you like so far as we are concerned.

When the time comes I will do it.

(Interruptions.)

At this stage we must proceed by means of orderly debate.

We are anxious to protect the workers and we have provided the necessary aids. We want to see a free trade union movement that will not be subject to influence by any political Party or Government because we know the problems that arise if a trade union organisation is dictated to by any group. The political levy in itself and some of the pronouncements made by some senior trade union officials fairly recently leave much to be desired. They clearly show their one desire is not the welfare of the workers but their own survival and that of other people in the trade union movement.

Like many others in my Party, I feel that enough is not being done in regard to social welfare benefits but I am confident that as time goes on and as the economy can stand further increases these increases will come. We are proud of the progress we have made with social welfare. We are the only Party to make substantial progress in that respect and I challenge Fine Gael and Labour to produce evidence that they made any advances in the social welfare sphere. Where did they assist the widow, the orphan, the disabled or provide children's allowances? There is no record of it, only a miserable record of an increase of 10d a week that they gave to the old age pensioners. They cried about it for almost 20 years before giving the 10d. That is their only contribution in the past.

I remember, at a meeting in O'Connell Street, hearing the then Taoiseach, Deputy Costello, state that the past is the best guarantee of the future and those words sank in. We know their past and that they are thinking in terms of 10d. When the new metric system is introduced, I only hope that they will not have 100 pennies to the 2/-, if they get into power. They will try to convince people that it would be worth 8/4. One would think that the 10d they gave was worth £10 at that time. That was the only advance made in their terms of office of six years — a sorry state of affairs. I am sure there is no other Government in the world with a record like that, of giving an increase of 10d a week. It would not buy icecream for old age pensioners. When we give a 10/- increase, they say it is not enough. Of course it is not, but when we have the means to produce more, we shall give more to the old age pensioners, the widows and the disabled.

When the inter-Party Government were in power, there was a great deal of unemployment and of disabled and sick people, and I wonder why they got no increase. Is this the new socialist policy — to give only to certain people? If that is the type of socialism that is to be injected into our system, you can have it. Their 10d a week mentality does not seem to have changed although there is plenty of talk and I am sure there will be more talk in the future. But I have not now heard a cry for a general election for about two years. At one time you heard nothing from them but talk of emigration, old age pensioners and widows and orphans. All that has gone. They must have no interest in those people; certainly they had no interest in them when in power.

Great strides have been made in social welfare by way of increased contributions and by way of aid to the old age pensioners such as free electricity and free transport and increased payments. These are things on which we can look back with pride. We can look forward with confidence. We know we will have the goodwill of the people because we are prepared to do what we say. The past is the best guarantee of the future and if you look at our past you can see that this is true. That is our type of socialism. All of them seem to be socialists opposite now. I do not have to say I am a socialist. The people know it and know my type of socialism and my Party's type of socialism. They know we will assist where possible the sections of the community that are most in need. We have always done so and will do it again because the past is the best guarantee of the future.

I cannot understand some of the Labour Party speakers — perhaps when some of them are replying, they will tell us — when they speak about confiscation of land, of banks and of sections of industry.

The word "confiscate" was not used by any of our speakers. At least the Deputy should tell the truth.

We believe that where private enterprise fails the State should move in. We have heard of this question of taking over the banks time and again; you see it in the papers every night practically. They want to take over the land and sections of industry and take over everything. Do they mean confiscation? That is what one gathers from some of the speakers. If so, a man would be a fool to leave his money in the bank if they get into power because they would take it over. That is the surest way of driving people to invest their money outside the country. This type of socialism was tried elsewhere but some of the people who called themselves socialists and took over the banks, the industries and the lands and those who supported them ended up behind the grill. They called themselves national socialists. The Labour Party should clearly define how far they want to go and are prepared to go. We know their record and can assess their plans against their past performance. If they thought in the past that they should give 10/- and gave only 10d we know how to assess their plans. If they tell us what their plans are, we will know they are magnified 100 times and will be able to work out some system on which to view them realistically in the future.

I should like to know from the public representatives of the Labour Party, in the House, on local authorities and elsewhere, who have constantly stated that they should take over the banks, the land and sections of industries, if this is confiscation or something else. The public would also like to know. I am sure the knowledge would ease the minds of many people. Our policy is well known. We are guided by Christian, socialist principles and it is on that basis we operate in dealing with matters such as housing, social and other problems. I would ask the Taoiseach to expedite where possible the introduction of improved health services. Because of the unsuitable system we have in Dublin, a number of people are not getting the type of service they are entitled to. Any modification of that system will bring about relief to needy people, particularly the disabled and geriatrics, and will certainly meet with my approval. I can assure you I will play my part in having this matter expedited. If money is required, I am prepared to support any motion to provide money for the sick, the infirm, the disabled, the unemployed and the widows and orphans. If additional taxation is required, I am prepared to go into the Division Lobby and vote for it, just the same as I am prepared to vote for any other measures coming before us from time to time to help the sick, the disabled and the unemployed.

People talk about the piecemeal implementation of these services and term it illegal. I would support any implementation of these services which brings benefit to these people, just as any reasonable Deputy would support it. Therefore, I am sure the Government will have the necessary backing to do the right thing if they decide to move on this matter soon. I would ask the Taoiseach not to be misled by the pronouncements of those who say it is illegal but they would be prepared to close their eyes to it, as was said by a front bench member of Fine Gael today. I am for any progressive implementation of the health services, however slow; but if it can be implemented sooner, all the better.

I would make a special appeal to the Taoiseach in relation to geriatrics. I have a great interest in the welfare of the aged. I was heartened by the introduction of the free electricity and travel schemes for them. That is a clear expression of the Government's outlook on these people. I am sure that, when the necessary money is available by reason of the growth in the national income, much more will be done for these people. They have been negiected for some time and they need immediate attention. I should like to see the introduction throughout the country of the system in operation at St. Mary's Hospital where old people spend six weeks in the hospital, are built up and are then sent home for a further six or eight weeks. They come into the hospital again and are once more built up. This results in a bigger turnover of patients with a smaller number of beds, which is desirable where we have so many neglected people and ensures that none of them reaches a level where long-term hospitalisation is necessary. In another year or two it will be too late for many of these people and something should be done for them as soon as possible. Whatever is done will merit the thanks of the nation. If it is necessary to increase the amounts to the local health authorities for this purpose, I know responsible Deputies will be only too willing to support any motion to meet this need as son as possible.

I can suggest a number of ways where additional financial assistance to the health authorities would mean that more old people would be assisted. I feel that many people are put into hospital because of the inconvenience they cause in a house where a young woman has to look after a number of small children. In all big cities there should be a central laundry service to help people keep at home some elderly member of the family who might otherwise be put into hospital. I feel they would be prepared to keep these old people at home if they could deal with the problem of soiled linen. It is a big problem for a young woman with a large number of children. She is anxious to do her best for the old people as well, but it is beyond her capacity. If we could introduce a service whereby linen would be both collected and delivered in the big cities, the hospitals would not be over-crowded with geriatrics as they are today.

I would ask the Taoiseach to pay special attention to hospitals other than local authority hospitals, who I feel are shirking their responsibilities to old people. They are prepared to deal with paying patients from whom they get a substantial income. But how many of these people are left to end their days in some institution or in some hovel or other? If the local authority hospitals were not in existence many of these people would be thrown to the winds. I feel that the hospitals that have taken so much from them have a responsibility to provide some beds for old people and they will have to be made realise their responsibility in this matter. They should not be allowed to take the cream and then leave the rest to the local health authorities and the ratepayers.

A useful approach could be made to these hospitals. I am sure the members of their boards are responsible people with a feeling for the aged and that they would be prepared to relieve this burden on the local authority hospitals. There are many other aspects of geriatrics I should like to deal with, but the question of the bigger turnover of old people with a smaller number of beds is very important. Any assistance that could be given to local health authorities would be appreciated and put to a useful purpose. The voluntary hospitals are bearing a fair share of the burden in relation to geriatric treatment. The whole thing must not be pushed over to the health authorities because they have played their part in providing beds in hospitals for aged people and preventing them from ending up in unsatisfactory institutions sometimes, although most institutions are doing the best work they possibly can.

The problems of backward and retarded children have also been outin lined here. On this aspect the health authorities are doing a remarkable job but, due to a lack of financial backing, they are prevented from doing more. I am sure that all responsible Deputies would support any further taxation that might be necessary in order to ensure that this section of the community is treated in the manner we would all hope to see.

As the Taoiseach is here, I should like to say that I hope every effort is made to expedite the implementation of the medical services as soon as possible either on a piecemeal or a general basis. There are many defects at the moment and threats have been made, but responsible people are anxious to give the necessary assistance to the aged and the disabled.

In relation to the extension of the educational facilities to the post-primary level there is little need for me to dwell on this subject. This is a matter that has been welcomed by all. It has received the blessing of the people of the country. The great benefits that will flow from it will be visible in the years to come. The problem of additional education for people who were denied it in the past because of their inability to pay, or because of their family circumstances, has now been solved. In the future children will go on to greater heights and at the end of their secondary school education, those who have shown promise will enter other fields of higher education. This is something of which we can be proud.

As I said earlier, when Deputy Corish, the Leader of the Labour Party, was speaking yesterday, he mentioned the young Labour Deputies and said they were disappointed in the progress that has been made. There has been a colossal amount of forward thinking and the implementation of various schemes in the past 12 months. I should like to say to the Taoiseach as a worker and a member of a trade union and speaking on behalf of the bulk of the trade unionists in my area, we are very happy with the progress made in the past 12 months. We are conscious of the various schemes which were introduced to relieve the burden on the aged in relation to travel and electricity, and to relieve the burden on the old age pensioners, the sick, the disabled and the unemployed. They all appreciate this forward thinking. They also appreciate the aid to the workers by way of the Redundancy Bill and the other measures that have been compiled and are on the Order Paper to be introduced in the near future to alleviate the hazards and the pressures on the workers. I would ask the Taoiseach to expedite where possible any measure that would assist the workers.

I know what we will do when it comes to making an agreement again.

All these things are a concrete expression of our desire to ensure that the workers adjust themselves as quickly as possible to the changes. We have seen what has taken place in relation to Rawsons. This is appreciated by the trade unions and by the workers as a whole. This is the type of thing that keeps me and the trade union movement so closely attached to this great Party. I referred earlier to the Apprenticeship Act which threw new light on this problem and aimed at upgrading the technicians and equipping them for the future in a realistic manner. Various technological changes have taken place in many of our industries.

As a result of the pattern set by the Apprenticeship Committee—a very valuable committee—young people now have high technical qualifications which are required and will be required even more in the future. This, together with the Bill for retraining personnel shows an enlightened outlook and forward thinking. The people who work in industry appreciate that on our side there is a desire to do what we can to assist not only individuals but the nation as a whole. There was a reluctance on the part of some people to accept this. I said that I thought there might be some non-co-operation and in fact this non-co-operation has been injected into the discussion.

I would ask the Minister for Labour to ensure——

Would the Deputy not do what the Minister for Defence told him to do and sit down? Even he is tired of listening to the Deputy.

I would ask him to ensure that there is adequate co-operation so that Irish workers will be upgraded and that the training facilities will be utilised to the full advantage of industrial employment.

In the ten minutes that have fallen to me, there are only a few minor topics to which I have an opportunity to refer. The first is that some suggestion has been made by the last speaker that there was a doubt as to the housing situation in this city when we left office in 1957. I quote Deputy Seán Lemass, then Minister for Industry and Commerce—Volume 194 of the Official Reports—when he said:

There was a stage two or three years ago when the Dublin Corporation had 1,500 empty dwellings available for people who needed them.

Either Deputy Lemass who was then Minister for Industry and Commerce was deceiving this House and deliberately deceiving the House, which I refuse to believe, or he was not. You may take your choice, and I recommend the members of the Fianna Fáil Party to take Deputy Dowling and Deputy Seán Lemass into a quiet corner and let them fight it out between them. That is the testimony; that is the reference. Any Deputy who doubts it can look it up himself, and it was a statement after three years of careful examination of the facts by the then Tánaiste of the Government, Deputy Seán Lemass.

I once before said to the present Taoiseach when he was Minister for Finance: "Watch out. There are coming serious economic developments in Great Britain and in the United States of America consequent then on the general elections which were pending in those two countries which will react on you. Get ready." I do not think he paid much heed to me then but he discovered, to his cost, that my warning was timely. I told him afterwards that though I did not believe he wanted to be Taoiseach, he had been made Taoiseach because his colleagues would cut one anothers' throats and when they were all laid out in bleeding rows on the floor, the Taoiseachship would be thrust upon him. That also came to pass.

I now want to issue another warning to the Taoiseach. He spoke in relatively sanguine terms in opening the debate. I imagine he knows the fact himself that there is a situation developing in Great Britain at this moment closely approximating to crisis which can only be averted by a January Budget and very severe restrictions in Great Britain. There is a situation arising in the United States of America in which there is a desperate struggle going on between Congress and the Presidency to get an extra ten per cent put upon taxes in order to prevent the inauguration of inflation in that country. These developments will have big repercussions here and unless we are prepared for them we will bitterly regret our complacency today. The world in which we are living is not one in which you can be complacent. I warned you six or eight years ago of what was impending in Great Britain and the United States of America. I warn you now: "Look out again; there are big problems ahead."

I think it has already been mentioned that we are ourselves seriously menaced by the cattle plague in Great Britain. I want to say that, in my judgment, we ought to close the ports to passenger transport for the week before Christmas and the week after. I have had long experience as Minister for Agriculture. When I made an appeal for voluntary co-operation, I got it as to 90 per cent and it was the 90 per cent of the decent people who rallied round, but there were always ten per cent of chisellers who were determined to get anything they could out of the fact that there was not legislative force behind the request. The same thing will happen now. You will have individuals coming over and you will have individuals ringing you up.

I had an individual ringing me up to know would I get the Minister for Agriculture to release him from the restriction put upon him. I said:

"Unless you are a lunatic, you will go back to England at once. You have no business here." I think that person was simple and did not realise the gravity of what he was doing in coming to Ireland at this time but you will get a minority coming over. The hardship is that the 90 per cent of decent fellows who stay in England and deny themselves holidays are driven to exasperation by the realisation that the ten per cent irresponsible come over and have a fine time and damn the consequences. If there is to be that sacrifice made— and it is a very considerable sacrifice to deny these young people their Christmas holiday—but if it is to be made by 90 per cent, it ought to be made by all.

I want to say a good many things but I find myself in the last five minutes left to me by the eloquent disquisition of Deputy Dowling. In the discussion of the Estimate for the Office of the Minister for Finance, certain grave fundamental issues were raised by me, including the whole question of Keynes's economics and the whole approach to the economic future of this country. I advanced pretty considerable opposition which I commend again to the House. I quoted from Per Jacobsson when he said:

It seems to be a lesson of history that without stable money neither justice nor progress can be assured and that the human spirit cannot give of its best if it is harassed by all the uncertainties to which rapidly changing money values give rise. Nations, too, must have their self-respect (which is something other than nationalistic pride), and enjoy the esteem of other nations; but this cannot be obtained without the benefits of a sound currency.

Not of a sound economy but of a sound currency. The Minister for Finance, Mr. Haughey, derisively intervened to say: "Quote Adam Smith next." He seemed to think that these sentiments expressed by Per Jacobsson were rendered out of date by the emergence of Keynes. I tried to warn him that Keynes was one of the great evil influences that have affected economic thought in the last century and compared him in the range of economics to Rousseau in the field of philosophy both men, having, in my judgment, corrupted the public mind in these respective spheres. I have not time to pursue that further.

I will give the Deputy a few minutes of my time, if he wishes.

I am much obliged to the Taoiseach and appreciate his courtesy, which is exactly what I would expect from him. I think it is better to abide by the established order. I am grateful to the Taoiseach for his courtesy.

I direct the attention of the Minister for Finance to the Central Bank of Ireland Quarterly Bulletin for November, 1967, Page 57, where he will read "Towards a Monetary Analysis of Aggregate Demand". He will there discover that his beloved champion Keynes, to put it shortly in the minute that is left, has gone down the drain. God grant he is never taken out of it again. That is where he belongs. His economic fallacies have led one nation after another into the tragic dialectic of inflation. I wish I had time to elaborate on that now. However, if I can persuade the Taoiseach to direct his Minister for Finance to wrap his head in a wet towel and study that article "Towards a Monetary Analysis of Aggregate Demand", I will have done much to correct a potential evil which could very vitally affect the future interests of this country. In the interregnum, until other and better men take over the government of this country, Deputy Haughey will be Minister for Finance, presumably, as long as this Government last and he has power to do considerable damage, unless the Taoiseach can restrain him, until this Government come to an end and a wiser head will take his place, but in the meantime I would hope he would learn that what he thinks to be the whiz kid of economics, Mr. Keynes, is now becoming, in the eyes of prudent men, the hippie of economics, with all that implies for the hippie himself and those who are associated with him. I understand, Sir, that you have to call on Deputy Tully.

Before I commence on my speech proper, I should like to have it placed on the records of this House that when a discussion took place about the conclusion of the business for this session, arrangements were made between the three Whips, with the concurrence of the Taoiseach, that a certain order would be observed. Subsequently the Taoiseach suggested that, for a particular reason which we understood, he would like that instead of finishing at 8 o'clock this evening, we should finish at 7 o'clock. Knowing he was a reasonable man and we being reasonable men, we consulted our Parties and agreed that the debate would conclude at 7 o'clock.

I mention this because of the disgraceful action of a Member of the Taoiseach's Party who, deliberately in my opinion, came in here, and along with making scurrilous attacks on the Labour Party, repeated ad nauseam stupid comments which he had made again and again, until eventually, in exasperation, the Minister for Defence, presumably at the Taoiseach's request, told him by a wave of his hand, for God's sake, to sit down. Deputy Dowling is now carrying the mantle which unfortunately was carried by people of his type in the Fianna Fáil Party before now, because in my time in this House, there has always been a guttersnipe who was prepared to throw mud across the House and then fly out. Deputy Dowling made a cheap sneer at the members of this Party who are engaged on Committees in this House and therefore could not be here, that he was the only trade unionist in the House. We have been in this House for our period during all the time that Deputy Dowling did not find it possible to be here for one reason or another or for no reason at all.

I do not make personal attacks, but on this occasion I feel perfectly justified in pointing out that if Deputy Dowling had succeeded in being appointed a trade union official when he made an attempt a few years ago to be appointed one, his attitude to the Labour Party and to trade union officials would, I am sure, be entirely different from what it is now. I should like to make it quite clear that I am not attempting to attribute any blame to the Taoiseach for this occurrence. I am sure it would be no wish of his that these arrangements, which were made in good faith between the Whips and himself, did not materialise.

When the Taoiseach was addressing the House yesterday, he spoke with such a note of optimism that I wondered was he talking about this country at all. The Irish Times of today has a heading: “Lynch Optimistic about Economic Future.”“Optimistic” is the word, because the Taoiseach did, again and again, say that everything in the garden was lovely. He did not use the expression that it was a land flowing with milk and honey but he suggested that anybody who did not realise that now should have another look around because he would find it difficult to travel around the country without stepping into the milk or the honey.

Some of the statements made by the Taoiseach were guesses, and if we are to go by the Second Programme for Economic Expansion which he and his Government prepared, we should not depend too much on those guesses because they did not turn out very well. Some of the statements made were incorrect. Again, knowing the Taoiseach as I do, I feel sure he did not deliberately try to mislead the House, but I shall give one instance which will show that there was an effort made by somebody to put across to the people in this House and to the country something which just is not true.

The statement made by the Taoiseach was that the current total of insured employees, 715,433 in July, 1967, was the highest figure ever recorded, that this represented an increase of almost 60,000 new jobs in that period since 1961, or 12,000 jobs a year. Surely the Taoiseach is aware that because of an increase in the amount which a worker was entitled to earn and still remain insured, there was a very substantial number of people brought into the net who previously were not insurable? He must know that very many of the people to whom he refers were in that category. It is most unfair that the Taoiseach should give the impression that the reason for the increase in the number of people in insurable employment was that there were extra jobs, when, in fact, they were people who formerly were not entitled to be insured under the social welfare code and who are now insured. This is something which I am quite sure was done in error, but it is so important to have the facts right that the Taoiseach should either correct his figures or justify them when he is replying.

He also says with a wave of his hand that emigration is down. Will the Taoiseach produce any figures to prove that emigration is down? Is it not true that emigration is still running at 20,000 per year? Does the Taoiseach not remember that a couple of years ago when the Central Statistics Office produced the figure of 12,500 as being the number that emigrated in that particular year and when questions were asked in this House, they subsequently amended the figure to 25,000, Has something like that happened again, because as far as I can find—and I have gone very deeply into the matter—there is no evidence that emigration is down?

The Taoiseach also suggested that the number of people unemployed was down. I have before me here an official document, "Industrial Analysis of the Live Register for mid-November, 1967", which is the latest that has been issued. It gives a figure for unemployed, at 17th November, 1967, of 55,355 persons, which is an increase of 5.881 on that for 13th October, 1967 and an increase of 6.045 on the figure for 18th November, 1966. Either the Industrial Analysis has got these figures upside down or the Taoiseach's brief was not so hot.

When we talk about employment, unemployment, emigration, all these things, we talk about them in a global way. I should like to ask the Taoiseach has he or the members of his Parliamentary Party, members like Deputy Dowling, who claim to be such an ardent trade unionist, ever gone into the house of somebody who has not alone been unemployed for so long that he has passed from unemployment benefit to unemployment assistance, or the dole, as it is commonly called? Has he ever realised that these people do not eat as well, dress as well, as others who are in the area with the breadwinner working, but that, after six months unemployment with no prospect of re-employment, they get a feeling of hopelessness, a feeling that nobody wants them, that nobody is prepared to do anything for them? The Taoiseach yesterday, in saying that the country was doing well, that everything was grand, as Deputy P.J. Burke was saying this morning—like Santa Claus, as Deputy Dunne said—everything was lovely et cetera, was most certainly not giving much credit to the intelligence of these unfortunate people.

Does the Taoiseach ever go to the trouble of checking on a non-contributory old age pensioner or a non-contributory widow pensioner, who, because of the fact that she lives in a county council cottage, has that counted against her as income, a house on which she is paying an annuity and, because of that, gets only 47/6 a week instead of the 52/6 to which she should be entitled? Does the Taoiseach think, when these pensioners read his speech, if someone lends them a newspaper, that they will be impressed? Does he think that they are very well off, that the country is doing well and that there is nothing to worry about?

The big trouble about this Fianna Fáil Government and previous Fianna Fáil Governments—again, I think Deputy Dowling got mixed up in his jerseys when he referred to the fact that for 20 years the Government did not do anything; there was only one Government that did not do anything for 20 years and that was the Fianna Fáil Government—is that most of the people who have authority in that Government are people who never themselves knew what it was to depend on a week's wages or what the position would be if that week's wages were not forthcoming. If they did, they would not, I believe, get up here and start talking about the prosperity of the country because, so long as there is one person living below subsistence level, everything is not well.

According to the Taoiseach's Department, there are 55,000 to 56,000 people at the present time living below subsistence level and this figure does not include the number of people who are in fact receiving disability benefit; some who were drawing unemployment benefit were put on the dole and went to local doctors who gave them certificates and the result was they got the same amount of money as if they were drawing unemployment benefit. Now I asked one doctor if he was justified in giving a certificate to such a man and his reply was: "In the case of a man like this trying to rear a family on the miserable pittance the State allows him, you could give him a certificate for nearly anything." We have thousands of such people. I wish to goodness the Taoiseach and those who sit behind him would realise that, if they are well off and if things never were so good for them, there are many thousands in the country who have never had it so bad.

We hear a great deal of talk about money for housing and the steps forward to improve the housing position. It is quite clear to anybody who wants to be reasonable and fair that while a certain amount of money is being made available for housing, the number of houses required is gaining on the number of houses being provided. In the constituency I represent, we have for the past number of years been attempting to reduce substantially a list of about 185 people who are awaiting housing by the local authority. What happened? We found two years ago we seemed to be doing pretty well. Last year the money was cut so drastically that nothing was done. This year we got a certain amount of money, but, by the time the Department had cleared our application, we found ourselves in the position of having only as many houses as one could count on the fingers of one's two hands. Next year will be the same. I compliment Deputy Boland on the very good effort he made yesterday on the Estimate for the Taoiseach's Department to reply on the Estimate for the Department of Local Government, but I think he is completely cut off from the actual facts. He just does not know. He has apparently what is given to him by his Department. If he checked, he would find that most of what he is giving consists of figures, figures which do not make sense when applied to conditions in the country.

Last week we had a discussion here on devaluation. There was quite a to-do about it. People in the different Parties seemed to have divergent views. I am perfectly satisfied that in the circumstances the Government had no option but to devalue when Britain devalued. Had they said that, I think they would have got more credit. Deputy O'Higgins and the Minister for Finance referred to the 1927 Act and the Minister for Finance said that legislation would be introduced so that they would not have to follow Britain in the future. Unless the balance of trade with Britain alters very considerably, and there does not seem to be much appearance of that, it does not matter whether we have authority to devalue less or more than Britain. In the circumstances in which we are, it would have been madness to have done anything except what Britain did. That is a personal opinion, but I am sure a number of Deputies will agree with me in it.

We have had a great deal of talk, too, about the Free Trade Agreement with Britain. As the agreement operates from month to month, those of us who take an interest in such things know that the volume——

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

To most of us who have been observing the effects of the Free Trade Agreement with Britain, it is obvious that, as the weeks go by, more and more goods are coming in here from Britain at a lower rate of duty. All one need do is check in the shops in this city or anywhere else. If one is buying an article, one is usually offered a choice of four or five articles of British manufacture before the Irish article is produced. Indeed, one usually has to ask for an Irish article before it is produced. I am not blaming the Government for that, but we have been talking about Irish weeks and, come the 17th March next, we will probably have another one in an attempt to get our people to buy Irish. I think every week should be an Irish week for Irish men and women. Apparently the idea has got about that, as between a British manufactured article and an Irish manufactured article, the British article must be better because it is British. It is an awful pity that this is so. If the Government would attempt to put across the idea that it is not so, that the Irish article is as good as, if not better than, the British import, there might be some heed paid to them.

When the Free Trade Agreement with Britain was made, we were told that it would benefit us substantially on the agricultural front and that we would not lose very much on the industrial front, so that, in general, we would gain by it. I do not want to go into any of the sordid details as to how the former Taoiseach told us about the big fight put up for agriculture by the then Minister, Deputy Haughey, now Minister for Finance and how we were told that the price of Irish cattle would be up by £15 to £20. The result of that we all know now but the Taoiseach did refer to the fact that the Free Trade Agreement with Britain was an exercise in preparation for entry to the European Economic Community.

If it was such an exercise, I suggest that it was a dismal failure. As far as we can see, the result of that Agreement is that we have gained nothing in the agricultural field and have lost substantially in the industrial field. Nobody can say that the fact that British goods are being imported here at gradually reducing tariffs is not having an adverse effect on Irish agriculture. As far as the European Economic Community is concerned, I cannot understand why the Taoiseach and his advisers continue to talk as if they felt that entry to the Community was just around the corner. The Taoiseach told us here what the French President, General de Gaulle, said to him, and he gave us the impression that there would be a welcome there for Ireland in the Community at any time. He said that in any case it would be possible for us to have a certain type of association with the Community and the Taoiseach replied that he did not want that.

A deputation from the Labour Party went to Brussels recently. I had been there a few years previously and, on this occasion, I found no reason to change my mind from the impressions I formed on the previous occasion. Whether the members of the European Economic Community are anxious to let Ireland in or not, it is certain that they are not prepared to consider Ireland's application until they have decided on the British one. And I do not know why the Taoiseach seemed to think that when General de Gaulle says: "No" he does not mean any such thing.

Perhaps if I quote from the magazine European Community an article entitled “Europe in November” I may be able to clarify the French attitude. It refers to President de Gaulle's press conference of 27th November and it quotes the French President's comments on Britain and the Community. It says:

To speak only of the economic sphere, the report addressed to the Six Governments on September 29 by the Brussels Commission demonstrates with the greatest clarity that the present Common Market is incompatible with the British economy as it now is. The chronic deficit in the British balance of payments demonstrates the economy's permanent disequilibrium. In its means of production, sources of supply, credit practices, working conditions, the British economy includes fundamental conditions which that country could not change without altering its own character.

The Common Market is also incompatible with the way the British get their food. This rules out London ever really accepting the levies provided for in the financial arrangements for agriculture which would be crushing for it. The Common Market is incompatible also with the restrictions imposed by England on the export of capital, which, on the contrary, moves freely among the Six.

The Common Market is incompatible with the state of sterling. Moreover, in view of the pound's position as an international currency and the enormous external balance which weigh it down, the state of sterling would not allow it at present to become part of the solid, independent and sure group to which the franc, the mark, the lira, the Belgian franc and the florin belong. In these conditions, what would be the result of what is called the entry of Britain into the Common Market? And if one wished in spite of everything to impose it, it would obviously mean the breaking up of the Community which has been built up and which functions according to rules which would not tolerate such a monumental exception.

Since everyone knows the issues involved, if the Six allowed Britain in and started negotiations to this effect, it would mean that they were giving their approval to all the artifices, delays and subterfuges which would tend to cover up the destruction of an edifice which had been built at a cost of so many difficulties and in the midst of so many hopes.

What France cannot do is to enter at present into any negotiations with Britain and its associate countries which would lead to the destruction of the European Community to which it belongs. France is indeed quite prepared, in order to make things easy for Britain to enter into any arrangement which under the name of association or any other name would favour, as of now, commercial exchanges between the Continentals on the one hand and the British, Scandinavians and Irish on the other.

Nothing could be clearer than that and how in the face of all this anybody can say that General de Gaulle does not mean "no" when he says "no" puzzles me. It is quite obvious that if we ever intend to have any association with the Common Market, we have got to make some other arrangement than acceptance by the French of our application for full membership. The Labour Party are not in favour of full membership. Britain needs full membership because she must have a say, for many reasons, in the running of the Community. That does not apply to the same extent in our case. We are a small nation and if you want to go into association with such a body as the European Economic Community, we must be prepared to take the rubs as well as the kudos. It is quite obvious that the rubs would be far more numerous than the benefits we would get.

I cannot understand why the Taoiseach should say that the proposal to prepare a Third Programme is under way but that it cannot be produced until a final decision is made on our membership of EEC. If we are to have a Third Programme, it should be produced now. We should have it now and the purpose of producing it should be to show the nation which way to go.

There have been statements from many parts of the country that the Government have not been doing the job properly. Various criticisms of the Government have been made and usually we are told that these criticisms are made for the purpose of opposing the Government. I am going now to mention one or two points and to ask the Taoiseach is aware of the subsidy and what he is doing about them. The Taoiseach is aware of the subsidy paid for beef exports to Britain. He is aware that that subsidy goes to the meat factories and not to the farmers.

I wonder if he is aware that the position now is that at least one factory which employs 300 men, the average wage of whom could not be more than £20 a week— £6,000 per week—is sending 1,000 carcases to Britain on which a subsidy of £10 per head is obtained, a total of £10,000 per week. Not alone are these people getting the entire wages of their staff but they are getting £4,000 as well. Not one penny of that is passing back to the farmers; it is being retained by the beef factory. If that is the way the affairs of this country are to be run, if a small group, who are well-in, are able to get this type of money and hold on to it, is it any wonder that there is dissatisfaction among the farming community?

We all regret the situation which has been caused by the incidence of the foot and mouth disease in Britain. We hope and pray it will not come here. If it does not, then for six to nine months, or perhaps a little longer, after the outbreak is over, there should be an increase in the price of Irish cattle of all types. Since apparently cattle in dairy herds are the ones most affected in Britain, we will not be able to cash in as well as some people think on the stock to replace the dairy herds which have been destroyed in Britain. However, we will be able to cash in fairly well on all the other types of animals we have. I wonder if the Taoiseach considers that the present arrangements we have with Britain are sufficient. He is aware, of course, that a number of ports have been closed. He is aware that while we are allowed to send stock to Scotland, the stock cannot be sent beyond the Scottish border and cannot find its way back into England. Is there no hope of trying to open negotiations in an effort to break that deadlock? If things continue as they are, then farmers will either have to hold on to their stock on their land, with the prospects of a hard winter and a shortage of fodder, or will have to send them to Scotland where they must of necessity sell them for less than their value.

I should like to know if the restrictions which are supposed to be imposed on people coming into the country are in fact being imposed. Yesterday I mentioned the unfortunate situation of a farm worker who went to England for personal family reasons and who, when he returned, was confined for 21 days to the vicinity of his home. During that period, no provision was made for himself or his family and apparently the question of food did not arise. I asked the Minister for Agriculture if something could be done about this and he said it was impossible to name what Minister would look into it in case it might be an admission of responsibility for looking after this family. There are many more in this position. I believe that people coming in should undergo the strictest supervision in regard to this matter of disinfection. The right kind of disinfectant should be used and there is no point in throwing a dash of Jeves Fluid into a bath and saying: "That is enough; everything is all right now."

The Taoiseach knows that that is not the answer to this problem. I mentioned today that eggs are being imported in a big way from Northern Ireland. There is no evidence that they have not come from further afield. If we are going to take precautions, and we have even stopped apples coming from the North, surely we should be able to ensure that every possible type of carrier will be stopped? I hope that foot and mouth disease does not come here. It is unnecessary to tell the Taoiseach that the Labour Party are in favour of any steps taken to ensure that the disease is not allowed in here. The closing of the ports has been mentioned and it is fair to say that if the ports were closed generally, the loss would be bigger than even the losses which would be caused by an outbreak of foot and mouth disease here. The closing of the ports against passenger traffic is something that will have to be considered. If they are closed, the restriction should apply to everybody and not only to the worker coming home at Christmas. It will have to affect the person who has money enough to leave the country, to spend Christmas in England, and come back here, as well. Let us not have exceptions. Either we are going to do the job properly or it should not be done at all.

We have been talking about the Common Market and there was a suggestion that it would be a good idea if we could get into the Common Market. There was a joke about two years ago about 2,000 bulls which the then Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Haughey, thought he had succeeded in selling to East Germany. If they went anywhere, they went to sea and have never been heard of again. Certainly they did not go to Germany. Today somebody has gone to Milan and hopes to get an order for 50,000 calves. The only snag is that the freight charges will be about £7 per head. This person asked the Minister for Agriculture if in view of the fact that this would be getting a foot into a Common Market country with an order which possibly could be repeated, there would be any hope of getting a subsidy or some form of assistance until the project got off the ground. The Minister for Agriculture said no. I cannot understand how this question can be dealt with in this way, in view of the fact that if he were sending carcase beef, £10 per head would be collected without any trouble. I should comment that during a certain period this year, I understand that there was as much as £40 per head subsidy collected on beef carcases sent from this country to Britain. It has reached the stage now that people selling beef over there do not go to the trouble of getting high prices because the subsidy makes up the difference and therefore it does not make any difference what they get because they feel that they will still be doing very well.

The Taoiseach said, in passing, that if we kept everything going and no undue wage claims were made—he was particular about this—we could succeed in riding the storm or words to that effect. May I direct the attention of the Taoiseach to the fact that in this country the worst employers of manual labour are the State Departments? They come first and the local authorities come second. I do not know whether the Taoiseach realises that the average wage paid in rural Ireland to forestry workers by the Land Commission is £8 15s 0d a week. That is their basic wage, on top of which they can earn a bonus. Road labourers are paid from £9 to £9 10s 0d. and farm workers are paid £9 0s 6d. Perhaps the Taoiseach feels that that is a sufficient amount on which a man should be able to rear a family at present. I want to make it clear that we do not think it is.

The trade union movement—and I am speaking for the section of the trade union movement that is really interested in trying to do something for the workers in general and not for someone who stands up and says: "I am a trade unionist and I believe the Government are doing all right"— feels that the position has to be improved. If the Taoiseach, and he has just hinted at this, attempts to tie wages at any future date, he must leave out the wages of the lowest paid workers because they must get more and get it quickly.

In passing, I should like to point out that local authorities throughout the country and almost all employers —I have before me a list of various types of employers—have reduced the working week from 42½ to 41¾, to 40 hours and some to even less. The State still refuses to accept that and insists on having its pound of flesh. Practically all our workers, particularly local authority employees, are working a five-day week and the State says: "That is all right for people in offices, senior officials and everybody else, but the fellow who is working in forestry, who has to climb through trees and up hills in the dark of the morning or the evening or the Board of Works man up to his hips in water, is in a different category: they are second-class citizens. They are manual workers of the State and they must work 5½ days in the winter. They must get out on Saturday mornings when everybody else is resting.

If nobody else will do it, the Taoiseach should do something about this because, if there were any way by which this grievance or claim could be taken before an independent tribunal, it could be settled very quickly. But the State makes the decisions and when we go to any State body to make a case, it is going to court with the devil in hell because when we have talked as much as we like, they say: "We make the decision and this is it." The former Taoiseach gave a guarantee before he relinquished office that in the very near future he would produce a court to which such matters could be referred. I ask his successor to carry out that promise.

Very briefly, I should like to refer to the fact that many people are under the impression that big wages are being paid throughout the country. Bord na Móna workers are on a basic wage of £10 per week and they are meeting difficulty in getting an increase because the State insists on getting every farthing in interest owed by the Board to the State, paid each year. We have reached the ridiculous situation that after this House had given permission to Bord na Móna to borrow £3 million a few years ago, they are now using that money to pay the State interest, while other State bodies are allowed to get away with it and do not have to pay. I have a list of them that I can read for the Taoiseach if he wants it. When they do not have the money, they get a period as a "breather". This year we had the extraordinary statement by the Chairman of Bord na Móna that they would have made £1 million profit if they did not have to pay £1,300,000 interest to the State. This may be good bookkeeping for the State but it makes it very difficult for the men employed by the Board to get what they are entitled to.

Post Office engineering labourers get £12 10s; CIE bus conductors in the Country £12 8s 8d; Leaf Ltd., Kilcock pay 5/6d per hour; Salts (Ireland) Ltd., Tullamore, £10 6s 10d; Creameries, £10 7s; Irish Base Metals Ltd., Tynagh, £11 16s 5d; Antigen Ltd., Roscrea, £10 12s 6d; Thomas Thompson, Carlow, £12 2s; Irish Cider and Perry Co., Clonmel, £10 14s 6d; Burnhouse (I) Ltd., Ballinasloe, £10 15s; Potez Industries, Galway, £12 11s; Clonmel Industries Ltd., Clonmel £10 10s; Green Isle Products, £10 17s 6d; Milford Tannery £10 15s; another Clonmel firm, £10 15s; Irish Agricultural Wholesale Society, £11 10s; Dunlops Ltd., £12 9s; Goodbodys, £11 6s; sawmills generally, £11 15s; Cherrys breweries, £11 3s and so on.

Despite what we hear about big money earned by people in industry in rural Ireland, that is what they are getting.

If Deputy Tully wishes to go on, I have no objection.

Thank you — just two minutes to conclude. We have a situation here where the Taoiseach, representing the Government, says, in this House, as was said by a very infamous — if I may use the word — Prime Minister in England not so long ago — that we never had it so good. Yet we can all look around and see hundreds and thousands of people who never had it so bad. Worse still, these people now realise that there is very little hope for them because, apparently, the Government cannot see the wood for the trees. They see themselves in the circle in which they move doing well and think everybody else must be doing well also.

We had a lot of talk about Deputy O'Malley as Minister for Education and his educational schemes. Definitely, it has made a big improvement, but the Department of Education which, incidentally, find it very difficult to reply to a letter from a Deputy, have failed to meet their responsibilities where prefab schools have been added and additional pupils brought in because of free education and so on. Over a number of years they have not paid for these schools and have left parish committees and parish priests lying awake at night wondering where the money will come from, money which is due by the State and which the State either has not got or will not send on to them.

I thank Deputy O'Higgins for the few extra minutes and I want to say that if the Taoiseach considers that the country is doing very well and that there is no need for anybody to worry, we in the Labour Party feel that the worry is so great that the sooner we get an opportunity of finding out what the people are thinking the better. I do not mean what the people think in a few constituencies — and the Taoiseach has trotted out the by-elections——

You had a good cross-section there.

I would remind the Taoiseach of the 3,000 votes in his own constituency that did not go to him this time and that is only the beginning of it. I also want to remind him of the many thousands of votes that did not go to Deputy Dowling's group. When the next elections come along, he will find out that, despite the attacks made on the Labour Party by Deputy Dowling and, indeed, by the Minister for Labour, the Labour Party will be able to show the Government that they are the up-and-coming Party, and the sooner it comes the better.

Following on the concluding remarks of Deputy Tully, I think we are in many ways in a rather anomalous position in this country — and so are the Government — in that we have in the present Government a Government who are as great a failure as many of the Fianna Fáil Governments who preceded them and yet this Government who, to my mind, are at least on a par as a failure with other Fianna Fáil Governments, have, by dint of by-elections, succeeded in putting themselves in the position of having a majority over all other parties in the House.

That fact imposes a particular responsibility on the Government. They are now in a position where, simply by counting heads, they can outvote every other Party or group of Deputies. They cannot shelter behind any pretext of instability or weakness to excuse any failures on their part. They are there with a majority. They have an obligation to the people who put them there to govern properly. One of the complaints Deputies on this side of the House and people outside are making, and are entitled to make, is that this Government are not giving the kind of government and the kind of lead the people feel is required in these days. The Taoiseach referred to the by-election results which had achieved that position for the Government as representing a fair cross-section of the people. I wonder is the Taoiseach really happy? Does he really feel quite complacent about the picture that has been painted for him and his Government in the by-election results? The end result of the by-elections was that we have four extra Fianna Fáil Deputies in this House. But the path that brought those Deputies here, and the results painted in that path, must be such as to give no grounds at all to the Government and the Taoiseach for congratulation.

I think I am correct in saying that in all the by-elections, the Opposition Parties, either both or one, have demonstrated their increasing strength and demonstrated it at the expense of the Fianna Fáil Party. In the Taoiseach's own constituency — and I was in that constituency for quite some time during the course of that by-election — the Taoiseach himself can certainly not feel very happy. He knows, as I know and as every other Deputy who visited the constituency knows, the maudlin type of campaign carried on there on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party. There was no invitation to the voters of Cork to vote for the Fianna Fáil Party as the Fianna Fáil Party. It was a maudlin campaign to persuade the voters of Cork to vote in order to keep the Taoiseach in power. Even with that type of campaign, the result were such that the Taoiseach in particular, and his Cabinet as a whole, must feel very apprehensive about the position.

When the Taoiseach talks of by-election figures and when he claims that the Government's mandate has been approved by the people because of the wins in the by-elections, I want to point out to him — I think this is a fact he and his Ministers will not contradict — that the general picture painted in this country in successive elections for the past decade has been one of narrowing the gap between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. A decade ago the gap in votes between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael was as wide as 25 per cent. The present Government Party secured from the electorate 25 per cent more in votes than the Party of which I have the honour to be a member. Compare that situation with the situation reflected in the local elections last June. The Taoiseach is at least as good a mathematician as I am. He will find that the gap which was 25 per cent ten years ago has been narrowed down to a gap of 6½ per cent. Therefore, the true position of the political temperature in this country at present is that all is required is a changeover of one average family in a hundred to have the Fianna Fáil Party over on these benches and the Fine Gael Party over on those benches with a majority in the House.

I do not think the Taoiseach or his Party can take any great solace out of their election wins. I know there are those who preach the gospel that all that matters is who wins the seat. That may be so in a general election; it is certainly not so in by-elections. What is important in by-elections — we are all politicians here and we can appreciate this — is the trend shown in the voting. When the trend is, as it has been in the recent by-elections, a decrease in support for the Government and an increase in support for the Opposition Parties, then the Government, notwithstanding their overall majority in this House, have something to worry about.

I say that this Government are just as much a failure as other Fianna Fáil Governments. I say that, because if we take the main matters of interest to the people and to the administration of the country as a whole, on each of those matters, the Government have failed. People would not seriously disagree with me if I say that the matters of principal interest and importance to the people in present circumstances are economic planning and economic policy, the question of social investment, particularly in housing, the question of the cost of living and price stability, and again the question of employment and unemployment. I group with that the question of emigration. On each of those items, the Fianna Fáil Party, as a Government, have proved to be at least, if not a disastrous failure, a near disastrous failure.

The Taoiseach, in the course of his remarks introducing this Estimate — I must confess I did not hear him speak but I read the report in the Irish Independent— seemed to me, quite properly, to make two appeals for co-operation, one in connection with the foot and mouth danger and the other arising from the devaluation of the pound that took place here. With regard to devaluation, he is quoted in the Irish Independent as saying:

The main advantage from devaluation would be the opportunity for a significant rise in our exports. Provided management acted promptly and employees co-operated in keeping costs fully competitive, we should see a marked expansion of our exports to the continent and the United States during the next 12 months.

The point I want to make in that connection — it is one I have made before — is that when management and workers do co-operate they are entitled to be recognised as the people who are producing the income and the wealth. They are entitled to get full co-operation, not only as between management and labour, but full co-operation from the Government and Government Departments. The Taoiseach in particular when talking about co-operation — and I do not for one moment question his sincerity on it — should recognise the need for the headline to be set by himself and his Ministers and their Departments. In page 5 of the very same issue of the newspaper I have quoted, today's Irish Independent, we find another heading: “Clondalkin Chief Criticises Department of Lands.” This is what was said by the chairman of Clondalkin Paper Mills Ltd. at the annual general meeting of the company. The report states:

Mr. O'Brien said that they had continued to press the Department of Lands for reliable forecasts of the current availability of suitable plywood with a view to expanding their pulp-mill and increasing the volume of mechanical content papers.

"I regret to advise you," said Mr. O'Brien, "that to date we have made no headway and I think it rather disgraceful that our forward planning should be so stultified by apparent inaction of a Government Department, particularly so when practically every member of our Government is repeatedly emphasising that ‘Time is not on our side"'.

There we have the example of a company which looked for the kind of guidance that industry is entitled to look for from the Government. Apparently they were not able to get the kind of guidance that is necessary for them in doing their own job, and in doing the kind of job which it is recommended to them should be done by speakers up and down the country. They are planning their own affairs and planning expansion, and apparently they cannot get the co-operation they need if they are to put their plans into operation. When the Taoiseach and other Government Ministers talk about this it should become a fact and a reality at the top as well as in the middle and at the bottom.

The Taoiseach also referred to the danger of foot and mouth disease coming into this country and, again, according to today's Irish Independent, he said:

... the foot and mouth disease risk transcended all topics in agriculture. Mr. Lynch asked for the co-operation of agricultural and other organisations in the steps being taken to keep the disease out.

I am quite sure that the Taoiseach and the Government will get the fullest possible co-operation from agricultural and other organisations to that end. I want to make this suggestion to the Taoiseach now. He should have a word in the ear of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, and should suggest to the Minister that now is the time, in face of this danger, to see that the hatchet is buried, and effectively buried, with the NFA. Some time ago when this danger became a grave risk for this country, I saw a report that the members of the NFA had offered their services in thousands to help patrol the ports, and do whatever was necessary to play their part in trying to ensure that the necessary action was taken to keep the disease out of the country. If he has not done so already, I suggest that the Minister should accept that offer and that he should show the goodwill of the Government towards the offer that was made.

I want to suggest also to the Minister, through the Taoiseach, that in burying the hatchet, and in considering what steps should be taken to reduce to the minimum the risk of the foot and mouth disease coming into this country, every available avenue of publicity should be used, and that Government advertisements should no longer be kept out of the journal of the NFA. Co-operation should be asked for by the Taoiseach, but if he and his Government are to get co-operation they should give it as well. Let us bury the hatchet now, once and for all. We are all agreed that agriculture is our main industry. We are all agreed that it would be a tremendous disaster for the country as a whole if the agricultural community were hit by the foot and mouth disease coming into the country. The Government should take every measure open to them to prevent that, and to secure the co-operation they ask for.

Deputy Cosgrave and Deputy Clinton have already made known very fully and widely the views of this Party, the views of the different members of this Party and the intentions of this Party to co-operate to the fullest extent they possibly can on this question. I think it is right to say that as a Party, and in regard to Party matters and Party functions, the Fine Gael Party have already taken any steps open to them. Neither the Taoiseach nor any member of the Government need feel that they are putting themselves out on a limb if they feel other measures are necessary. The responsibility is on the Government and, if there are other measures to be taken, the Government must face up to that responsibility and take them. The Taoiseach has already been assured of our sympathetic interest and concern in the matter.

With regard to the question of the cost of living, this I list as one of the main failures of the Government. During the course of the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Finance, there was some discussion regarding the impact of devaluation on the cost of living. I am not now interested in any cost of living increases that may be occasioned by devaluation. I made the case in the course of that debate, and I want to repeat it here, that an annual increase in the cost of living is associated with Fianna Fáil Governments. Virtually every year of Fianna Fáil Government the cost of living goes up for the people of this country.

According to a reply given to a Parliamentary Question put down by Deputy L'Estrange and answered on 7th of last month, the same pattern is there at the moment. The cost of living is going up all the time. From these statistics, taking 1947 base 100 points, the cost of living was 134 points in 1956. Then we had a Fianna Fáil Government coming into office, and by mid-August, 1965, that had increased to 181 points; by mid-August, 1966, that had increased to 187 points; and by mid-August, 1967, that had increased to 192 points. In other words, since Fianna Fáil came back into office in 1957, the cost of living has risen by 58 points. I wonder if Deputies generally appreciate the significance of that? I think older Deputies will, in any event, when they throw their minds back to the campaign waged by the Fianna Fáil Party and their supporters to try to regain the reins of office and when members of the then inter-Party Government were charged with having thrown in the sponge and thrown in the towel so far as the cost of living was concerned.

Now we find after ten years of Fianna Fáil Government that the net result is that the cost of living has increased by 58 points. The same picture is reflected when we look at it from the point of view of money values, and whether or not the people are getting the same value now as they did before Fianna Fáil came back as the Government. In reply to Parliamentary Questions as recently as last month information has been given in regard to the value of the £. I had better read the question so that I will not mislead anyone. Deputy L'Estrange asked the Taoiseach how much the £ was worth in 1948, 1956 and 1966 in terms of the present £. The Minister for Transport and Power answered for the Taoiseach. He circulated a table with the Official Report which shows the estimated amount which would be required at mid-August, 1967 to purchase the same quantum of goods and services at retail prices as would £1 in the years specified. The estimates are based on the retail price index numbers. We find that to purchase what could have been purchased for £1 in the year 1948 required the spending of £1 18s 8d in the year 1967; that to purchase what £1 would have bought in the year 1956 one had to spend in August of this year the sum of £1 8s 9d. So that, between the years 1956 and 1967 an additional 8s 9d had to be put to every £ to get the same value as was obtainable before Fianna Fáil became a Government again in 1957.

In reply to another question dealing specifically with the year 1957 asked by Deputy Clinton on 30th May last, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach said that it was estimated on the basis of the retail price index numbers that at mid-February, 1967, the latest date for which the index number has been calculated, £1 would purchase the same quantum of goods and services at retail prices as would 14/10d. in the year 1957.

We have there a picture of a gradual decline in money values associated with the Fianna Fáil Government, a gradual but sharp increase in the cost of living working out over the last few years at something in the region of five per cent. The total increase in the cost of living since Fianna Fáil came back as a Government is something in the region of 40 per cent. That means that people now have to spend £140 in order to buy goods and services which they were able to buy for £100 before Fianna Fáil came back as a Government.

If one looks back over the past 12 months of the present Government, and that is the particular period which we are reviewing in this discussion, the two main things that were regarded as newsworthy and that hit the headlines during the past 12 months were, first of all, the row between the two successive Ministers for Agriculture and a large section of the agricultural community and the row, which seems to me to be an artificially inspired row, developing between the Minister for Labour and the trade unions. That is bad for the country. It is bad that the political head of the Department of Agriculture should be in conflict with the people whose interests he is there to further. It is possibly even worse that the political head of the Department of Labour should apparently be edging up to open warfare with the trade unions. It would seem that if we are to make any advance on the economic front — and we are told that that is of the utmost importance — one of the things that are essential is that there should be the kind of co-operation for which the Taoiseach appealed today. That kind of co-operation and harmony should exist in a very particular way between the Minister for Labour and the trade unions.

As far as this Party are concerned, we recognise fully the importance of the existence of the trade union movement in this country and the importance of members of trade unions being loyal members of their trade unions and working with their trade unions and trying to achieve the objectives set before them. The fact that a political levy may exist in trade unions should not in any way diminish the loyalty of any individual member of a union. As I understand the position — and Labour Deputies here will correct me if I am wrong — any member of a trade union who wants to opt out of payment of a political levy is entitled to do so and I have no doubt that many thousands of Fine Gael supporters who are members of trade unions will deal with that matter without publicity, without bitterness, without argument, in the manner they think best. If they wish to opt out of payment of a political levy, they will do it and will not be victimised by anybody in doing it.

I certainly would not see in the existence of a political levy any reason why members of my Party should feel it necessary to go to war with any trade union. Certainly it is bad for the country if the Government Party have that kind of attitude in their minds with regard to trade unions and it is particularly bad that the Minister for Labour should be chosen, as I assume he was chosen, as the person to fire the first barrage in that connection.

Deputies on these benches have referred to the question of a review of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement. That is a matter that I hope will have the fairly urgent attention of the Government. So far as we in Fine Gael are concerned, we submitted the Trade Agreement to as detailed and as critical an analysis as it was possible to give it. We made known our views in a very detailed way at the time. We pointed out the flaws and defects we saw in it. We pointed out that we regarded it in many ways as being unbalanced and that the weight of advantage was with the British, but because it appeared to be a step towards Europe at the time and because there was nothing else if that Trade Agreement was not accepted, it was clearly the logical thing to do at the time, to accept it. But that does not debar us now, nor should the Government feel in any way debarred, from seeking a review of that Agreement in view of the situation which has now arisen with regard to entry into Europe and we would urge the Taoiseach to endeavour to undertake that review as quickly as possible.

There is only one other matter I want to touch on and I shall do it fairly briefly. It is in relation to the remarks made by Deputy de Valera in this House some days ago with regard to the Fine Gael Party, with regard to their role and their effectiveness or otherwise as an opposition Party in this House. I want to say this, and I do it in no boastful way — I certainly do not do it from the point of view of claiming any personal credit at all — that I believe the present Fine Gael Party in Opposition have been as effective and as efficient an opposition Party as this House has ever seen.

Under the leadership, first, of Deputy Dillon, and then of Deputy Cosgrave, this Party has undertaken the task of thinking out policies for the betterment of this country as a whole, policies which were first derided and then accepted by many others in this country. They were prepared to do that and did it as they do their work in this House and outside it, without the cushy service of civil servants at their right hand to feed them with briefs, to feed them with statistics and other material. I do not think we have ever failed in our duty in this House to analyse and criticise as we saw necessary any legislation introduced by the Government. We have endeavoured to be, and I believe we have succeeded in being, a critical and constructive Opposition Party, and that is the right kind of work for an Opposition Party to undertake. In case Deputy de Valera or any other Deputy on the Fianna Fáil benches is in any doubt about that, we are prepared to show him and to show the Government how effective we are and can be as an Opposition, either inside or outside this House at any time.

I remember only a few months ago when Fianna Fáil Deputies were talking about the type of opposition from these benches, because it was hurting them. I remember on the occasion of the Marts Bill being discussed here that Fianna Fáil, first of all, lengthened the hours in the hope that they would quell opposition and eventually they had to bring in the guillotine. The type of opposition which the Taoiseach is getting from this Party is constructive. It is worthwhile opposition, and it is opposition of a type of which we feel we can be proud. We are prepared to fight the corner for the people we represent — and they are 500,000 people or more — both in this House and outside it. As far as we are concerned, the sooner the Taoiseach and his Government decide to test the true political temperature in this country at a general election, the better we shall be pleased.

I should like to refer first to the opening remarks of Deputy Tully in relation to the intervention of Deputy Dowling a short time before Deputy Dillon spoke. The suggestion seemed to be that by his intervention and the length of his contribution, an arrangement that had been come to between the Parties had been broken. I think that is not in accordance with the facts, and certainly if Deputy Tully complains about the length of Deputy Dowling's contribution, which I understand was about an hour and a quarter——

Two and a half hours.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): He was speaking for long before Question Time.

I understand that the contribution from Deputy Seán Dunne was almost as long.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): It was not dirty.

In any event, I am sorry Deputy Dillon did not have more time because Deputy Dillon is an interesting speaker and he had some theories which I should like to have seen him develop in relation to economic thinking, and so forth. I offered him some extra minutes but, like the good parliamentarian he is, Deputy Dillon preferred to conform with the order of the House that was made yesterday.

If I may refer generally to the debate, it really only came to life in the last hour or two with the intervention of Deputy Dillon and the forceful contribution of Deputy Tully and, since he is in the House, not to detract from the speech made by Deputy O'Higgins, who made as good a case as he could on behalf of the Fine Gael Party. Rather than deal with the performance of Fine Gael as a Government or part of a Government set-up, Deputy O'Higgins spoke instead about the division of votes between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael in recent elections. That is not relevant at all. What is relevant now is a review of the current economic position in the country, especially as evolved and developed over the past 12 months.

It was very difficult for me in the course of this debate to identify a theme on which I could accept the Opposition as challenging or criticising the Government's administration or the Government's policies over the past 12 months. Time after time, Opposition speakers came up with the assertion that nothing had been done over these 12 months. It is very difficult to know how they came to that conclusion. I should like to remind them in this context of some of the things that did happen in the year under review.

Let us remember that at the beginning of this year, we were only barely emerging from the throes of the economic depression that hit this country in common with the United Kingdom, the United States and many European countries. It was a kind of depression caused to a large extent by the same factors as caused the depression in 1956. However, instead of running away from these difficulties and running away from the effects of this depression, we, unlike our predecessors, faced up to these difficulties, and that was the first achievement of the incoming Fianna Fáil Government. Let me repeat that success did attend our efforts, efforts which included timely and adequate action to redress the position. When we saw the time was opportune and when we thought it prudent to do so, these efforts also included the reflationary action that we took. That action did prove timely and, I suggest, in the circumstances proved adequate. In 1966, we took these necessary reflationary steps, and the results have now begun to flow from them.

Deputy Cosgrave suggested yesterday that whatever good results have attended the economic situation would have happened in any event, without any Government activity or without any Government intervention. I am sure Deputy Cosgrave does not wish to have it both ways and hold that if things go wrong, the Government must accept the blame but if things go right, then something else was responsible, not the Government. I think we are entitled to take pride and encouragement from the fact that things have begun to go right.

Deputy Cosgrave yesterday, and other speakers outside in different media, referred to the necessity for reflation at the present time. It must be obvious that, as with much of Fine Gael economic policy, it is hindsight policy. They are not only days behind the times but they are even over a year behind the times. I refer again to the fact that, from July, 1956, onwards, £40 million credit was made available for the generation of economic activity, and that came after a positive decision and after positive advice given to the commercial banks by the Central Bank. This is an increase of 11 per cent. Surely an increase of £23 million of extra Government current expenditure, made possible through Budget activity and through fiscal activity in April of this year, without a serious increase in taxation, was nothing but reflationary action? The Fine Gael spokesmen, who now apparently and belatedly expound the policy of reflation, ignore or chose to forget these facts.

In relation to economic reflation generally, I might say that I am no Keynes and, in the context of what I am about to say, I am certainly not a Keynesian, but I do not have any blind admiration for those who favour the consistent balancing of Budgets. I am not against imbalance in Budgets. Neither am I against imbalance in international payments so long as that imbalance is moderate and can be handled and so long as, in the long term, it can be for the benefit of the country.

The rise in external assets this year, to which Deputy Corish referred, and which, indeed, he criticised a great deal, is attributable to two main factors. The first was the substantial improvement in external account resulting from a rise in exports, a rise four times greater than the rise in imports. The second factor was the large capital inflow. Let me say at once that I am not relying to any extent on the rate of capital inflow we enjoyed this year being repeated next year any more than the rate of inflow in 1964 could be relied upon to be repeated in 1965 and 1966. It was not. Both of these factors were of an exceptional nature.

The improvement in the balance of payments has been such as to lead to a surplus on current account, a situation which, I candidly admit, is unlikely to be maintained, and for good reasons. A continuance of the present buoyancy in the economy will inevitably lead to imports of plant, machinery and materials for industrial development and, at the same time, higher living standards will call, as has been the pattern over many years, for increased imports of consumer goods. It is improbable that exports will be able to keep pace with the higher imports required and the likelihood is that a steady economic growth will be maintained over a period and, even if a moderate deficit again emerges on the balance of payments, I think we will manage that.

In regard to the capital inflow, it would be foolish to count on this continuing at the rate of £35 million to £40 million a year. Indeed, it is a considerable tribute to the confidence that foreign investors have in our economy that the management of foreign companies can continue to invest at such a high level in our economy. The present level of reserves — they are in the order now of £290 million — provides room for inflow in the future and will allow growth to be maintained even in circumstances of a moderate balance of payments deficit and reduced capital inflow. This year's capital inflow, therefore, does not support Deputy Corish's contention that the economy is starved of investment funds. His suggestion of fiscal control over money leaving the country would no doubt — I am sure he knows this: I intervened while he was speaking — cause deterioration in the funds for investment because, if we take action of the kind suggested, foreign investors would almost certainly be frightened off in view of the danger of their being unable to repatriate any investments they might make here. I also indicated that there would be danger of retaliatory action on the part of other Governments.

Since I am dealing with external assets and external influences, I want to say now to Deputy Dillon that the Government are conscious of the difficulties operating in the British economy, difficulties which may yet operate in the United States economy. We contended with these difficulties before and I think we can take encouragement from the fact that, even last year, when the British economy was stricken by a general depression, by a seamen's strike, followed, more recently, by a dockers' strike, all of which affected her growth rate, we achieved the satisfactory growth rate we did over the 12-month period.

Deputy Corish and others referred to what they described as the abandonment of the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. Deputy Corish, in particular, pooh-poohed the increase of four per cent in our economic growth over the 12 months and seemed to suggest that this was only a flash in the pan — he did not use the actual words "flash in the pan"— and he also said, quite rightly, that the growth rate cannot be confined to one particular year; it must be taken over a period as a whole. That is a fair enough comment. But let us look now at what the growth rate was over a reasonable period in the past. The Deputy will remember that up to 1956-1957, the growth rate was about one per cent. Then for the first time, I think, in living memory, the growth rate went the other way. Our economy started to go downhill. But from 1958 to the end of the First Programme for Economic Expansion, the total growth rate was 23 per cent, or over four per cent per annum in that period. From 1964 to date, the growth rate has been an estimated 12 per cent. Taking the two periods together, 23 per cent and 12 per cent, it is clear that there has been an average growth rate since 1958 of 4 per cent, which is exactly the figure for this year. Even on the test, therefore, applied by Deputy Corish himself, we can, I think, say we have been making reasonably satisfactory progress.

Before I leave Deputy Corish, I should like to mention his repeated reference to the teach-in in University College, Cork. I was not present at it, but I know one or two of the students involved in the organisation of it. I saw six or seven of them in a television interview and they struck me as being sincere young people. They are to be congratulated on their initiative and on the successful organisation of this event. We, as a Government, welcome public debate on public affairs, particularly debate by independent, competent and objective people. Apparently there were many such present at this debate and the proceedings were all the better for their presence.

Deputy Cosgrave yesterday referred to the impact of devaluation on consumer prices and worked out, by reference to a report of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, a British-based institute, published in November, 1967, that there might be a 6½ per cent increase in consumer prices directly related to devaluation. Now this review does state that over the next 12 months the rise in import prices in the United Kingdom as a result of devaluation is likely to cause a 2½ per cent increase in consumer prices. Export prices do not normally rise as fast as does the general domestic price level and, therefore, since we also have devalued, it is reasonable to assume that the average rise in the price of our imports from Britain as a direct result of devaluation will be less than 2½ per cent. That is in relation now to goods we import from Britain.

The estimated increase of seven per cent in British export prices quoted by Deputy Cosgrave takes account of a number of factors which have nothing whatever to do with devaluation.

The National Institute of Economic and Social Research review, this British review, clearly states that its estimate is based on the fact that "there are several reasons why export prices may be expected to rise in the United Kingdom" over the next year or so, and these several reasons are not related to devaluation. If we assume that as a result of devaluation the prices of our imports from Britain and other devaluing countries increase by as much as three per cent, then this will only add an estimated 6 per cent to our general price level. This estimate is arrived at in the following way: about 65 per cent of our imports come from devaluing countries; imports of goods and services constitute 30 per cent of total final expenditure so imports from devaluing countries represent about 20 per cent of final expenditure. The rise in the general price level which would result from an increase in import prices of three per cent would then be 6 per cent. Imports from non-devaluing countries represent about 10 per cent of final expenditure. If the price of imports from non-devaluing countries rose to the full extent of devaluation, that is, 16? per cent, it would add 1.7 per cent to the general price level and this can be regarded as an outside estimate because it does not take account of possible shifts from devaluing countries to cheaper sources of supply in devaluing countries, and this is quite likely to happen in our own case because Britain can be a more competitive purchaser of some of the capital goods which we have occasion to import from the Continent and it may be that there would be a transfer of imports from these countries to Britain. The total increases in the general price level resulting from devaluation would therefore be of the order of 2.3 per cent, and this estimate takes account of imports from both devaluing and non-devaluing countries.

Deputy Cosgrave yesterday, in part of his speech, used the November report, or commentary, as it is called, of our own Institute for Economic and Social Research and quoted a reference from that to deal with certain building operations. He suggested, as appeared in that report, that if following increased activity in house building and office building, industrial building, that is the building of factories, went ahead at the expected rate, the building industry would be strained. That may be so, but it is a pity that when Deputy Cosgrave was consulting our own Institute's report, which I think is objective, and whose officials are as efficient as those of the British Institute, he did not turn over the page. He was reading from page 4, and on page 3 — there are only 4½ pages altogether in the summary for November — he would have seen that the opinion of our own Institute of Economic and Social Research agreed with this figure of 2 to 3 per cent ultimate increase in consumer prices, and this contrasts with the 6 to 6½ per cent increase which the Deputy worked out from the British report.

Let me get back, however, to the alleged lack of progress for which many of the Deputies opposite said we were responsible. Most of the Opposition speakers said that there was no progress, but, as I said, Deputy Cosgrave admitted that there was some progress but attributed it not to the Government but to some other unknown factors. In the first place, I think nobody has attempted to deny that this four per cent increase in national growth this year is likely to take place. I think it is a certainly, and I believe that was a quick recovery, having regard to the difficulties of a year or a year and a half ago, and a worthwhile recovery, and was due directly to the reflationary action taken by this Government.

Labour speakers tried to suggest that this four per cent increase in gross national product meant nothing to the man in the street. Unless there is a four per cent or some other percentage increase in our national growth there cannot be stimulation of our economy generally. I think it has been stimulated and I propose to show that industrial expansion has taken place. The volume of production in transportable goods industries for the first half of this year was 12 per cent higher than in the same period last year and this kind of thing cannot happen without involving the man in the street, who is the worker who receives wages. I repeat as I said yesterday, that over 15,000 more people were in employment this year compared with last year and more of these were men than women. Here I might take up Deputy Tully's challenge to me that I have produced figures which could not be stood over.

I said yesterday that the figure of 715,500 insured persons, persons in insurable employment, was the highest figure ever attained in the history of the country. Deputy Tully challenged this and said it could not be right, that at least it could not be the highest figure because by reason of the extension of the insurable limit more people already in jobs were able to continue in insurance. However, if I ignore insurance, I hope to establish for Deputy Tully in another way that more people are in employment in transportable goods and industries and commerce than at any other time in our history. The total for all these industries is 732.7 thousand as compared with 673.8 thousand in 1961. That is a rise of 58.9 thousand or nearly 60,000 over a fiveyear period, or 12,000 a year. Deputy Tully can challenge these figures by reference to insurability or non-insurability or increased insurability of people if he wishes.

Deputy Tully accused me also of either being misled in my brief or trying to mislead the House itself in relation to emigration when I asserted that our emigration figures are going down. As Deputy Tully is aware, our best means of assessment of emigration is the net difference between outflow and inflow of passengers. In the year ended 28th February, 1958, that figure was 59,860 — 60,000 or as near as makes little difference. There was a gradual steady decline until 1963 to 12,000. A rather sharper increase took place up to February of 1966, 30,000, but it had gone down to 21,000 in the period to February of 1967. These are the figures available from the Central Statistics Office, figures supplied to me on which I based my statement that emigration was declining again, and what is more there is a population increase which we are happy to record also since 1961 up to 1966 of 63,000.

May I say one thing more in respect of the unemployment figures? I was accused also of misleading the House in this respect, that I gave figures that indicated a lower rate of unemployment than was indicated by the figures available to the Labour Party. The figures available to the Labour Members were figures as of 15th November as compared with the corresponding date last year. Since 15th November the reduction in unemployment has been no less than the difference between 6,100 and 3,800 — 2,300 by some quick mathematics. So that far from misleading the House, everything I have told the House has been fully justified.

However, I was dealing with the increased industrial activity which has been generated in the recent few months. Industrial exports rose by 22 per cent to a record total of £84 million in the first nine months of this year. The gross total was £202 million, which was the highest ever recorded. Surely this is progress? Surely this represents wages on the part of the man-in-the-street and, as well, surely this represents some benefits as a result of the Free Trade Area Agreement which has so many detractors in this House? Let us look at the alleged lack of progress in other spheres. In the past year or so we promised, we introduced and we implemented the free post-primary educational scheme. It was at the promise stage just before the 6th December, 1966 and it was at the implementation stage after the 9th November, 1967.

Now, there were two important political events in that period of less than 12 months, even though Deputy Corish has suggested that there were other political events which overshadowed these events. Deputies will remember that before the 6th December, 1966, the Fine Gael Party tried to suggest to the electorate that they had a free educational programme which was far better than ours and which would cost a fraction of what ours would cost and which would be financed from buoyancy. They said it was far better than the Fianna Fáil Party proposals. We told the electorate in the two areas in which the by-elections were being held that our scheme would cost money and we gave an estimate and said that when it was expanded, as it will be, it would cost considerably more. The electors in Waterford and South Kerry apparently believed us because that seemed to be one of the most topical issues at the time. Again, the electorate in Cork city and West Limerick were apparently glad that the people in Waterford and South Kerry believed us 12 months before. No matter how the Opposition may decry these election successes, they were successes, successes of which we are proud and we are not one whit disappointed with them, I can tell you.

It was easy for the people of Waterford and South Kerry at that time to assess the bona fides of the claims that the Opposition Parties were making then in relation to their educational programmes because they remembered well that in the difficult years of 1956 and 1957 one of the first things that came under the Coalition axe, one of the first things to suffer in order to maintain the faltering financial position of the Government, was education. There was a reduction of ten per cent in the grant to secondary education and a reduction of six per cent in the grant to vocational education. Is it any wonder then that the people of these constituencies were suspicious of the promises made by the Opposition Parties? I need not say that, when the Fianna Fáil Party returned to office in 1957, the first thing they did, because of their realistic approach to education, and because they realised its importance to the economy, was not only to restore but to increase the grants made available to secondary and vocational education and, indeed, university education as well.

I will refer later to education but I do not want to go into any great detail. Deputy O'Higgins was looking for some little stick — and stick is perhaps apt in this context — with which to beat the Government because he said the chairman of the Clondalkin Paper Mills said in his annual address yesterday that he could not get information quickly enough from the Department of Lands in regard to how many trees would be made available to them for their business. The comment apparently was, as well as I can remember it from the quotation read by Deputy O'Higgins, that the chairman of the company said that Government Ministers were exhorting companies to do everything in their power and to make no delay in their preparations to enter free trade area conditions, but that a Government Department was deliberately or negligently withholding information which was vital to them. The statement of the Chairman of the Clondalking Paper Mills, if he is correctly reported in the newspapers of today, to the effect that his company has repeatedly failed to receive forecasts in regard to pulp which will be available, is not in accordance with the facts. The Clondalkin Paper Mills, in accordance with other users of pulp, have always been furnished by the Department of Lands with all available information on this matter and I have a long statement indicating that, but I do not think it is necessary to read it out.

Before I go on to something of a more general nature, I should like to refer to the comments made on a number of occasions in regard to the high incidence of rates, particularly in relation to the impact of the health services on them. It is true that rates will rise this year, at least as estimated by the local authorities. The total revenue expenditure in the present financial year, of local authorities, if we excluded vocational education committees, committees of agriculture and harbour authorities, is estimated at £104.71 million. That was an increase approximately of £9 million on actual expenditure in 1966-67. It is important to point out that the percentage of the State contribution to the relief of rates has increased considerably and steadily over the past few years, again by deliberate Government action.

If we go back as far as 1938-39 the contribution paid by the State was 39.2 per cent; in 1956-57 it was 42.6 per cent and it is now 52 per cent, so that the Exchequer has come to the relief of rates to a considerable extent in recent years and to a higher extent than ever in the current year. Let me say that that is not the sum of the Government's concern about the increase in rates. As the House is aware an Inter-Departmental Committee on Local Taxation was set up in 1963 or 1964 and its first report was published in summarised form in 1965. That dealt broadly with valuation as a basis for rating. The committee's second report was published last July and it reviewed a variety of the rating concessions which exist. It made certain recommendations as to which concessions should persist and which should not. The third report, which will deal in a comprehensive way with rates and alternative sources of local revenue is, I believe, at an advanced stage and will probably be published in the course of the next few months. The House will appreciate that this is a very complex problem and it is not easy to decide what should be done, but I can assure the House that as soon as all the facts are available to them the Government will not be slow to act.

Before I go further, I should deal with references which have been made by a number of Deputies, particularly Deputy O'Higgins, to the foot and mouth epidemic. I acknowledge gladly the co-operation offered by the Opposition Parties and the understanding that is implicit of their co-operation in the present difficulties. It is, I suppose, an outright remedy to close the ports at present. It is something that naturally has to be considered, but we have been meeting consistently and receiving reports about the adequacy of the present precautions and there is behind a decision to close the ports a lot of other considerations, a lot of serious repercussions that any Government would have to think very seriously about before taking that step. I am talking of the closing of ports to passengers not the closing of ports to passengers and goods because I agree that closing the ports to passengers and goods would have very serious consequences.

In regard to the offer made by the NFA of personnel, it was a reasonable offer but in the event, not a very practical one because the powers that the Minister for Agriculture could exercise in relation to activities at ports of entry can be effected only by authorised officials of the Minister and, in many cases, no matter what personnel you had at the ports, unless they were duly authorised and in many cases duly qualified, it would add little, if anything, to the effect of the precautions.

It has become the practice in the debate on the Taoiseach's Estimates for the Taoiseach to review the economy. It is a practice but not a tradition because I understand that years ago it was not done. It has been done recently but, having time now, I think it might be as well to have a look at the year ahead. This is not anything in the nature of a Queen's speech but it is an opportune time to give an indication of what the Government propose to do in the immediate future, of the plans it has in hands and not only plans that are in the offing, but things that we know we are going to implement. Already, the Redundancy Payments Scheme has been implemented by legislation. It will become effective on the 1st January and a part of that will be the resettlement scheme. This will be a costly scheme and one difficult to administer but one on which we are determined to make a start as early as possible. This will be made on the 1st January.

Industrial relations legislation, the purpose of which is to improve conditions in this vital sector, will be introduced here early in the New Year. The educational system which is attracting so much public comment and debate in recent years will be further improved and extended. Because of the special place that skilled manpower will occupy to make good our deficiencies I should like to make reference to the regional technical colleges. As the House is aware, eight regional technical colleges were already planned, one in Cork, in Limerick, in Galway, Waterford, Carlow, Dundalk, Athlone and Sligo. To this we are adding one in Letterkenny, making nine in all. Between these colleges and the existing technological colleges in Dublin, technical education at an advanced level will be provided for the whole country.

Building work on six of the colleges is scheduled to commence in the spring and it is hoped to have them in operation by September, 1969. Work on the remaining colleges will commence at a later stage. More schools, more hospitals, more houses will be built in the coming year and may I say that is not just a pious hope because, already, the Capital Budget provides increased moneys for these projects. The industrial grants legislation is now being reviewed. The whole structure of our industrial promotion generally is under active review and it is the Government's intention, having reviewed it under the various Departments and at Governments level, to introduce an improved scheme so as to accelerate our industrial expansion programme.

The small farms incentive scheme will be put into operation early in the coming year. This scheme will help small farmers not only in the West but throughout the whole country to expand their output and so increase their income and improve their standard of living. The Minister for Social Welfare is now engaged on a comprehensive review of the whole structure of social welfare. This code, with the single exception of old age pensions which were in existence at the commencement of the State, may I remind Deputies opposite, Deputies who claim such advanced social policies, was introduced by a Fianna Fáil Government and it will be a Fianna Fáil Government that will expand it and bring it up to date. I hope that will be done very soon.

All this will mean further progress under what I think I can describe as a progressive administration. Fianna Fáil was founded as a national, social movement. It remains that and always will do so. We believe and we know that the people recognise that social advances can be made only when they are based on a sound economic structure. As my colleague, the Minister for Local Government, remarked yesterday, the idea of a social progress without economic expansion is nonsense. That is one of the things Deputies opposite should get into their heads because they can promise social advances far beyond the capacity of the country to pay and the economy to sustain but we have to implement the social advances and ensure that the economic progress that is necessary will be made, before we can implement them.

There was a good deal of reference to complacency in the course of the debate. Several Deputies used the word several times in relation to my speech. I was not complacent but I think I was entitled to point out whatever success attended our efforts to improve the social and economic position of the country over the past year just as the Opposition would be entitled to criticise our lack of success or progress. We have made progress but we are not smug or complacent about it. On the contrary, the successes we have had will only help to ensure that we shall make greater efforts in order to bring about improvement in the lot of all our people.

I still have time to go but I should like to see the House adjourned by 7 o'clock. It is usual at this time for the Taoiseach to wish the Members of the House and its officials a happy Christmas. I do so sincerely and, whether they like it or not, I think they will have a happy New Year.

That depends on the Government's New Year resolutions.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 66; Níl, 52.

  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Boylan, Terence.
  • Brady, Philip.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Don.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fahey, John.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzpatrick, Thomas J. (Dublin).
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Foley, Desmond.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, Hugh.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Colley, George.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, James J.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lenihan, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Nolan, Thomas.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Burke, Joan T.
  • Burton, Philip.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Fitzpatrick, Thomas J. (Cavan).
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hogan, Patrick. (South Tipperary).
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, Denis.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lindsay, Patrick J.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • O'Connell, John F.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.K.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tierney, Patrick.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Tully, James.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Carty and Geoghegan; Níl: Deputies L'Estrange and T. Dunne.
Question declared carried.
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