asked the Minister for Finance if he is formulating a pension scheme for widows of civil servants; and if he will include in any such scheme existing widows of deceased civil servants.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Civil Service Widows' Pensions.
55.
I have already approved a scheme providing pensions for the widows of civil servants. Subject to the enactment of the necessary legislation, which I hope to introduce shortly, the scheme will cover the widows and children of eligible persons who die on or after 23rd July, 1968. The scheme requires a contribution from all those participating in it and does not apply where the husband was never a member and never paid the required contributions.
Is the Minister aware of the extreme hardship and indeed privation many existing widows have suffered since the deaths of their husbands? Can he appreciate their great disappointment and resentment that a scheme is now being introduced and that if, for instance, a woman was widowed a week before 23rd July last, she will get no pension but a woman widowed a week later gets a pension? Is the Minister not enabling by this device people to buy themselves into a scheme now?
I know there is very considerable disappointment amongst widows not included, but this is a particular scheme which has to become operative from some date. We chose 23rd July as the first possible date on which to bring the scheme into operation. This is a contributory scheme and the essence of a contributory scheme is that one pays into the scheme and, by doing so, reaps the benefits of the scheme. The husbands of women who were widowed before the scheme came into operation were not, naturally, members of the scheme and their widows cannot, therefore, come within the ambit of the scheme. The suggestion is that some alternative provision should be made for them. I have looked at this matter very sympathetically to see if these widows could be provided for in some other way but I have not yet been able to come to a decision. I do not know that it will be possible to come to a decision. Certainly anything that might be done for them could not possibly be done under this scheme because the essence of the scheme is that you contribute and, because you contribute, you reap the benefits.
Will the Minister take note of the fact that I invite any dissenting Deputy to put up his hand? There is no Deputy in this House who will not support the Minister in the dilemma in which he finds himself. We all recognise this is a contributory scheme and, therefore, the widow of a man who did not contribute cannot be brought into this scheme, but surely the Minister should bring in a parallel scheme for the widows of men who never had a chance of subscribing to this scheme. I believe there is not a Deputy in this House or a single constituent of his who would not say: "Let us help them even though no scheme was prepared in the past through which their husbands could protect them."
Naturally every Deputy would be sympathetic, but somebody must take the opposite point of view. For many years there was no scheme for anybody. It is only lately that we took the initiative in this.
And more power to the Minister's elbow.
We are criticised because we brought in a scheme. In order to bring in a scheme one must start on some date.
Surely it is true to say there was always a scheme by which a civil servant could opt for a certain proportion of his pension, assigning another proportion of that pension to his wife so that she might have some income to support her in the event of his predeceasing her.
That is different. That scheme is still in operation.
More power to the Minister's elbow and all credit to him for bringing in a scheme to provide pensions for the widows of civil servants. We have a scheme providing pensions for ourselves. Let us not forget that.
And high time too.
Maybe it is high time——
The remaining questions will appear on tomorrow's Order Paper. We cannot debate this question. Questions have finished.
I am not debating. All I am asking is will the Minister bear in mind the fact that, if he can provide a suitable scheme to cater for these people, he will be supported by every Party in this House?
(Interruptions.)
Is the Minister aware there are fewer than 500 widows in this particular category? That is the estimate.
I think there are many more than that.
That is the estimation of the group who have organised themselves to look for this.
Even if there are a few more it will not break us.
No, but it will have to apply to public servants.