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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 27 Nov 1969

Vol. 242 No. 13

Health Bill, 1969: Committee Stage (Resumed).

SECTION 40.
Debate resumed on the following amendment:
46b. In subsection (1) (c), lines 27 and 28, to delete "registered medical practitioners engaged in a consultant capacity" and substitute "comprised of all occupations engaged".
Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand".
The Committee divided: Tá, 60; Níl, 46.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Blaney, Neil.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Boylan, Terence.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Gerard C.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Forde, Paddy.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, Hugh.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Herbert, Michael.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lenehan, Joseph.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Loughnane, William A.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Thomas.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Nolan, Thomas.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Malley, Des.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Joan.
  • Burke, Richard.
  • Bruton, Philip.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fox, Billy.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Justin.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • O'Connell, John F.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Reilly, Paddy.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Taylor, Francis.
  • Thornley, David.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Tully, James.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies O'Malley and Meany; Níl, Deputies O'Leary and Desmond.
Question declared carried.
Amendment negatived.

I move amendment No. 46c:—

In subsection (2) (c), page 22, line 50, to delete "after consultation with" and substitute "following nomination by".

I think it would be best if I first gave the House subsection (2) (c) of section 40 itself. According to this section one-half of the members of a regional hospital board shall be persons appointed by the health boards the functional areas of which are included in the functional area of the regional hospital board and one-half shall be appointed by the Minister after consultation with such bodies representative of the persons concerned. We are suggesting that rather than there being a consultative indication on the part of the Minister it should, in fact, be straight nomination by the bodies representative of the persons concerned with the provision of hospital services. We feel that the right of such bodies to make formal nominations themselves should be enshrined in this piece of legislation rather than that the Minister should have a somewhat arbitrary provision open to him to consult and then to make the appointments as he thinks fit.

In this context it is in accordance with Labour Party policy that the representative bodies shall make the nomination rather than that the Minister shall consult with them first and then make the appointment himself in effect. This is the proposition that we are submitting to the House in respect of nominations to the regional hospital board in each jurisdictional area. Accordingly, I trust that the Minister will see the good sense in this amendment put down by Deputy O'Connell and myself on behalf of our Party.

Perhaps this amendment has been put down because I have not sufficiently explained the underlying purpose behind the formation of regional hospital boards. They will be concerned with the general organisation and development of hospital services and not with their day-to-day administration. The three regional hospital boards will be taking over a number of functions which are at present functions of the Minister for Health and his Department. In other words, this is a very valuable experiment which I believe will be successful in decentralising hospital planning and enabling people to make propositions which will, of course, require budgetary consent for the improvement of hospital services. The appointment of consultants in an area can then be considered by Comhairle na nOspidéal.

I regard it as a decentralising move. It will leave to my Department the work of some of the superior planning for the whole country. Indeed, my Department are pretty hard pressed at present. There is a tremendous amount of work to be done because of the expansion of the services. There are many health reports to implement. Five reports have been presented to us, all excellent, all highly commented upon by the community generally. So, we will have these regional hospital boards helping with planning.

Under the circumstances, quite definitely it would be entirely reasonable for me to appoint one half of the membership of these boards. I can assure the House that, as they will consist of consultants, possibly general practitioners and other people concerned with health services, they will be appointed on the basis of their capability in relation to the whole area in which they will operate. They will not in any sense be politically appointed. These are bodies for planning purposes. I am afraid I cannot accept the amendment.

It is very important also, referring to Deputy Browne's fears arising from his statement on the previous amendment, that I should make certain that the half of the regional hospital boards which includes consultants and other similar persons, should include consultants in a regional area who are far-seeing, who are people of a reasonably progressive turn of mind. I am not saying that if they were nominated to me the case would be otherwise but, at least in the initial stages, I think this should be the case.

I would remind the House that the composition of the regional hospital boards as a whole will come in its final form before the Houses of the Oireachtas in the shape of a resolution to be passed by the Dáil and Seanad, along with the regulations for Comhairle na nOspidéal, and along with the regulations for the appointment of the health boards. All that can be considered again but, nevertheless, it is right and proper that I should have the opportunity of direct appointment in this case.

If I set a good example to my successors in these appointments, I do not believe that in this modern age any successor of mine would downgrade the appointments made by him, either to serve a purely narrow political interest or to serve any other purpose. That is the position and I must remain absolutely rigid in regard to this matter. I hope the Labour Party Deputies will see the point that this is the devolution, to some extent, of my Department. I am asking experts who will not include officers of the Department to do part of the work of the Department which will, of course, eventually be referred to the Department in one way or another, through the budgetary process, through the planning of each year's health and hospital administration, and through the officers in my Department who sit on Comhairle na nOspidéal. It is important to preserve this principle in this case.

I do not know which side to take here because, no matter which side makes the appointment, there are certain dangers. I am opposed to the Labour Party amendment because it is very often the most popular and not necessarily the most suitable person who comes from this type of nomination. If the Minister makes the appointment it will be said that it is a political appointment or, at least, it can be said that it is a political appointment and not necessarily the best appointment. Of the two, I think it is safer that the Minister should make the appointment because he at least will have to answer to this House in some shape or form. The bodies referred to will not be answerable to us or to anyone except their own organisations. On that account I would not be in favour of the amendment.

I most certainly feel there is comment to be made by us in respect of Deputy Clinton's viewpoint and the statement made by the Minister. We are specifically asking that the half who are to be put on the regional hospital boards, representative of those providing hospital services, should have the specific democratic elective right to make the nomination themselves. I do not accept the comment made by Deputy Clinton that the most popular man might emerge. That would be reflection on the ability of the various staffs and health organisations and consultative organisations to get the best person. I do not think his popularity, or the colour of his eyes, or his lack of hair, or any other aspect, would enter into it. Even if one could question the people who might emerge from that kind of elective process, these people still have the right to make the appointment and, if they make a mess of it, well, then, they have made the mess themselves and they are responsible to themselves as organisations for having done so.

I do not think we should have such little faith in the representative organisations as to think that they cannot do this. We know quite well what happens in practice. The Minister will write to the various organisations. He will ask for a panel of names. There will be the usual internal difficulties in these organisations in submitting a list of names to a Minister who will then, in his wisdom and judgment, decide from that particular panel who are the people to appoint, or he may do what his predecessor did, he may ask for such a large panel that it would be very difficult to decide who should go on it anyway.

We are asking the Minister to get rid of this half-hearted devolution which he talks about. In other words, we are asking him in regard to the staffs of the various regional hospital boards to have sufficient trust and sufficient faith in them as to say: "Right. Make the nominations. Give us the people. I, as Minister for Health, will stand over your right to elect people to the boards and I will therefore appoint them." Remember, the Minister can always bring very considerable pressure to bear on any appointee who may be grossly unsuitable, and he can consult further with these organisations.

Therefore, I do not think we should accept the comment made by Deputy Clinton or the comment made by the Minister in response to the fundamental approach by the Labour Party that those who represent shall appoint. This is the way this House is run. I am sure we have some specimens in this House—I may be very wrong in my choice of term—whom we would not necessarily put on to these regional boards, but I have no doubt that it is the right of the electorate to select whom they wish. It is also the right of the workers and the professional staffs in the health services to select whomever they want on the boards of the regional hospitals. That is the way it should be. That is the democratic way in which it should be seen to be in operation in practice.

I support my two colleagues because, as I said earlier, this Bill seems to be a complete bureaucrat's charter. As far as I can recollect there is no mention of anyone except the CEO and the Minister. Then we come to section 40 where I suspect the Minister is giving only lip service to the devolution of power from the centre to the periphery in order to allow democratic elections to take place in these various bodies that would be nominated to this board. It is quite wrong that one should presuppose that the different nominating bodies would not be sufficiently responsible or sufficiently conscious of the need to appoint the best person to any position. That presupposes a level of immaturity in the nominating bodies which I believe is a very condescending attitude and which I do not think comes well from all of us here who depend on the democratic process to be elected to this House. Responsible or irresponsible, reliable or unreliable, it does not matter; we all believe in the democratic process. Why can we not accept that the democratic process would be just as valid and as valuable in producing the best person for the post?

I do not think the Minister should seek to mollycoddle these various bodies he is setting up. Why does he not either run the whole of the health services from the Department of Health or grant a serious and significant devolution of power to the regional boards? In turn these regional bodies should encourage a devolution of power down through the various professional and technical bodies that would be nominated to these regional boards. This whole measure stinks to high Heaven of the whole concept which I regard as anathema, the democratic centralist idea of Stalin in his heyday. The attitude is that the ordinary citizen cannot run his professional body; he cannot run his trade union; he cannot run the local authorities. Why not tell us he cannot even nominate the right people to this House? Many of us believe that he has not, and a good case could be made for it, particularly in the case of the Minister.

This type of provision represents the continuation of "big brother", in the Department of Health having the final say. Anybody who knows the record of Fianna Fáil Governments over the years understands this business of: "Give us a list but we will have the final say." State bodies like Telefís Éireann have been blatantly misused and abused over the years by the Government who exercise this right of veto in relation to nominations, and in that way policy has been dictated. People who are nominated allegedly by democratic process end up as further supporters of the Minister, so that in fact he has the majority of power on a superficially democratic body.

I do not think I can argue this any more. I have expressed my point of view, that these regional hospital board representatives would provide a very democratic, so to speak, admixture to the total board. I hope that the people who are nominated by the regional health boards will be people who will be really skilled in the operation of the health service. In the initial phase it is essential that the Minister should appoint the other half of the people but I gather from consulting those who are legally responsible for drafting this Bill that if I feel convinced that the system of nomination is acceptable, it can be done later; in other words, when I consult the medical bodies including those engaged in medical education, which is the subject of the next amendment, I can say to them: "You choose". Therefore it is flexible. The emphasis is on the proposal that I should appoint them but it could be done the other way. I do not want to expand the debate. I have given the full position in regard to this, so I will leave it to the House to decide whether they wish to accept this amendment from the Labour Party.

Would the Minister consider bringing in on the Report Stage even the mention of the term "nomination"? After all, it could be said here that one half should be appointed by the Minister after consultation or on a nominatory basis. The principle of people sending in names rather than the Minister asking them to give a panel of names would be more effective.

We will put it in as an alternative. Would that satisfy the Labour Party: "by consultation or by nomination"? However, I want to make it clear that in the initial phase I shall certainly do it by direct appointment. We will put it in as "by consultation or by nomination". Nothing could be more democratic, and we can leave it to the Minister of the day.

Yes, I think so.

It is intended to bring in an amendment on Report Stage?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 47:

In subsection (2), page 22, line 52, after "bodies" to insert "(including bodies engaged in medical education)".

I am going to consult anyway on the question of the formation of these bodies and I must consult bodies engaged in medical education in particular, wherever the situation arises. Nobody will object to that.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 48:

In subsection (6), page 23, line 21, after "the Minister" to insert ", subject to subsection (1) (b),".

This amendment will give the council itself the function of regulating the number and types of appointment of consultant medical staff and certain other staffs who may be employed by the regional hospital boards. The object of the amendment is to ensure that the Minister's function will not, in those circumstances, duplicate those of the council. It is really a drafting amendment. As I have said earlier, the regulations in regard to all this will have to go before the Dáil and the Seanad.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 49:

In page 23, between lines 24 and 25, to insert the following subsection:

"(7) The following provision shall apply in relation to appointments referred to in subsection (1) (b) (i) by a regional hospital board:

(a) the remuneration and allowances and any ancillary expenses in relation to a person so appointed who is assigned to a health board or a particular hospital or group of hospitals shall be recouped to the regional hospital board by the health board or the authorities of the hospital or the group of hospitals;

(b) any such person while so assigned shall be subject to the like controls as apply under this Act or otherwise to officers of the health board or to appointments to the particular hospital or group of hospitals, as may be appropriate".

I have already dealt with this in the course of previous observations. It would appear advantageous that a regional hospital board should have the authority to employ consultants on their establishment to do work in the health board and in the voluntary hospitals in the region. These consultants will naturally be under the day-to-day management of the voluntary hospitals concerned and the health board, in the case of health board hospitals.

The object of this, as I have already said, is to extend the appointment of consultants servicing both kinds of hospitals or servicing outside the area of a single health board. This will mean in the future that you can have more consultants who might be appointed by a voluntary hospital doing sessions for the health board in the health board hospitals within or without the area of the health board where the voluntary hospital was; or you might have the reverse situation with the appointment of a consultant who would primarily be employed by the health board in a health board hospital, perhaps a teaching hospital, but who might undertake sessions in voluntary hospitals. It was felt in this case that they should be employed formally by the regional hospital board and that the remuneration, allowances and any ancillary expenses must be recouped to the regional hospital board by the health board in respect of the portion of the salary or sessional fees as established, or by the authorities in the voluntary hospital, who would also pay a representative portion of the services undertaken in a particular voluntary hospital. I think this is fairly clear.

This amendment proposes to do something similar to what is already being done by the federated voluntary hospitals at the moment where new appointments are being made by the federation, and they are assigned to particular sessions in hospitals all over the place. Very often it is not possible for one institution to find sufficient sessions for a consultant, and I think this is certainly the right way to do it. At present the individual hospitals pay sessional fees, but it is a better arrangement that there should be payment from the hospital board as a whole.

I agree with what Deputy Clinton says. It is a very necessary administrative arrangement. I do not like the use of the word "controls" in subsection (7) (b). I do not think the word "controls" is used anywhere else in the Bill. One talks about "terms of employment", "conditions of service" and so forth, but the word "controls" reflects a state of mind which seems to infer that the persons would be out of control unless the permitted controls proposed by the Bill were enforced against them because of this particular section. I do not strongly underline it but I do not think we should use the word "controls" if a happier word could be found.

I agree with Deputy Ryan that the word could be misconstrued. The word is referred to in section 16 subsection (3) (d) and I understand it is a word which has been used in the past in other Health Acts. It does not mean any extra formal control, it is just part of the administrative phraseology but it has no sinister significance.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 50:

In page 23, to delete subsection (7), lines 25 to 27, and substitute the following:

"( ) (a) Regulations under subsection (2) may provide that any reference to a health board in this Act (other than in sections 12, 13, 15 and 16) or in any other enactment shall be construed as including a reference to a regional hospital board.

(b) This subsection shall not operate to permit the application by section 14 of the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Acts, 1926 and 1940, to appointments other than for hospitals maintained by health boards."

The purpose of subsection (7) of this section was to permit the general provisions in the Bill about health boards and their functions to be applied to regional hospital boards. It would be inappropriate to apply to those boards the provisions in sections 12, 13, 15 and 16 of the Bill. Subsection (6) of section 40 makes it clear that the regional hospital boards would have special provision in regulations relating to the employment of their officers and servants. There is no need to apply the provisions in sections 15 and 16 of the Bill relating to the chief executive officers and their functions to the regional hospital boards. The boards will not be concerned with the kind of day-to-day administration for which the provisions of sections 15 and 16 were designed.

Paragraph (b) of the amendment will make it clear that the selection machinery of the Local Appointments Commission cannot be compulsorily applied to the making, by a regional board, of a consultant's appointment. It is made clear that this selection procedure could not be made compulsory for a consultant who would work in voluntary hospitals. It is simply an amendment clarifying the actual position in regard to employment given by regional hospital boards. In relation to the regional hospital boards' choice of their own officers and staffs, which will be small, regulations will come before the House to deal with this. The regulations with regard to the employment of what small staffs these hospital boards will have will come before the House in the form of special resolutions. I am not taking away any responsibility from the House in deciding how the staffs of these regional hospital boards will be appointed. The actual method of appointing administrative staff will come before the House when we deal with the formation of regional hospital boards and the health boards in the form of a separate resolution.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 51:—

In page 23, between lines 33 and 34, to insert the following subsections:

"( ) A draft of regulations which it is proposed to make under this section shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and the regulations shall not be made until a resolution approving of the draft has been passed by each House.

( ) Section 5 (5) of the Health Act, 1947, shall not apply to regulations under this section.

( ) Nothing in this section or in regulations made thereunder shall operate to terminate or affect in any way any rights which a person referred to in subsection (1) (b) (i) had on the 1st day of October, 1969."

This is an amendment which is being placed before the House because when we were preparing this Bill we had to think of the purpose underlying the operation of the regional hospital boards and Comhairle na nOspidéal and we decided it was essential that the regulations in relation to these bodies should be laid before each House of the Oireachtas. The second paragraph of the amendment simply means as we have laid them down before the House we will not have to comply with the section of the Health Act whereby regulations of this kind must be laid before the House and annulled and unless they are annulled within 21 days they come into operation. In other words, one does not need two kinds of examination in the House. The last paragraph is inserted as a safeguard of rights which consultants in voluntary hospitals may have. Such a safeguard exists in section 14 subsection (5) of the Hospitals Federation and Amalgamation Act, 1961. It simply guarantees the rights and privileges of those consultants now in employment. It is purely a protective paragraph. I know the House will want to discuss the whole question of the procedures and methods of appointment of Comhairle na nOspidéal and the regional hospital boards in so far as they have not already been defined in the Bill up to now.

We are very glad the Minister has met the objections which we voiced on Second Stage of this Bill in relation to this particular section. Our objection to the section at that stage was that it proposed a mountain of new ideas. It gave the Minister permission to make voluminous regulations to legislate by means of a blanket, without the House being afforded any way of even commenting on the regulations. We feel the Minister has gone a long way to meeting our objections in this regard. The House will have the opportunity to legislate, if only by means of approving regulations, or by way of making suggestions or tabling amendments. The Minister has provided that draft regulations shall not be made until a resolution, approving them, has been passed by each House of the Oireachtas, and in this way our fears have been mollified to a reasonable extent. While we still have some fears about the workings of Comhairle na nOspidéal, we appreciate that we are to have another opportunity of considering the Minister's detailed proposals and on that account we certainly accept and thank the Minister for this amendment.

Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That section 40, as amended, stand part of the Bill".

There is nothing that we can do about it now but there is such a profusion of authorities and boards that it is very difficult to see that so many of them are necessary. There are eight health boards, three regional hospital boards, local committees and Comhairle na nOspidéal. There will be a good deal of overlapping and a good deal of difficulty in getting the various authorities to understand the limitations of their functions and where one stops and the other begins. Personally, I find it difficult to separate the functions of the various bodies set up under the Bill.

Another thing that will create confusion is that there is an eastern region and a hospital board for a region, including some of the counties in the eastern region. For instance, there is the board covering Dublin city, Dublin county, the borough of Dún Laoghaire, Wicklow and Kildare and then there is the regional hospital board covering the whole of Leinster, Cavan, Monaghan, South Tipperary and, I think, Waterford. It is a mystery to me as to how they will separate their functions and why the functions of the various bodies cannot be carried out in the same way as they were carried out by a health authority covering a wide area and being responsible for all the institutions in that wide area. There was one body responsible and if something went wrong it was an easy matter to go to that one body and ask what was being done about it. In this case there is a proliferation of boards and authorities criss-crossing one another in the various functions they have to perform. We have probably gone beyond the point of being able to do much about it but I do not know whether or not the Minister himself feels that this is the best way to set up an administration for the health services. I do not see how he could possibly believe that it is necessary to have so many boards and so many authorities doing the work that has been done in the past by a single authority. I realise that in regionalisation there must be a larger region for institutions than for intimate services. A region such as the eastern region is sufficiently large to have one authority performing the functions for the region, including institutional functions, without going outside and including a larger area for the purposes of the institutional services.

I sympathise with the Deputy. I always believe in being frank in this House about matters of this kind. I made a very great effort to conceive the entire smooth flow of administration in relation to these bodies. Of course, it is quite clear that the county consultative committees are purely advisory bodies that will not engage in administration. So that you have left the health boards, regional health boards and Comhairle na nOspidéal. I thought it would be a very good thing to clarify the mind of the House by presenting a special White Paper, not, perhaps, couched in the same language as many White Papers use—spelling out in considerable detail absolutely specifically how we think the administration will operate. It will be presented to the House when we present the regulations for the regional health board formation, for the formation of Comhairle na nOspidéal and the regional hospital boards. I might add, it will help me as much as the Deputy to see this.

I am reminded of the fact that when I was Minister for Posts and Telegraphs we decided to take much more account of the Swedish telephone system, which is a Civil Service system. We went to Sweden and the heads of the Department spent three full days with us explaining in English how they were reforming the Swedish telephone administration. When I asked the head of the Department: "How could you give us the time?" he said: "We have made so many changes in the last two years that it was a very valuable exercise for the whole of my staff to see how it looked as presented to an outside person". In that sense, I intend to present this White Paper to the House.

Now that we are coming to the end of the discussion of Part III, section 40, I welcome the Minister's assurance that there will be a full examination in any case where closure of the county hospital is being or has been recommended. His assurance will give the people in any area some hope that the position will be improved when the inquiry is completed. The particular location of County Clare and of the county hospital warrants special consideration. We have impressed on the Minister at regional board meetings the necessity to give us an additional member on the board. I hope the Minister will seriously consider doing that now. It was also impressed upon him that Clare County Council was unanimously supporting the improvement of the facilities being granted to the surgeon and hospital staff there. Should the recommendation in the report be implemented it would mean that patients would have to travel in some cases 80 miles to a hospital. That is not reasonable either medically or in any other way. In the case of a patient who was haemorrhaging it would be very dangerous. It is desirable that that fear should be eliminated.

Any suggestion that the county hospital was not successful because of the small number of operations performed in it over the years would not bear examination. Indeed, any suggestion of that kind would be false. The physician, surgeon and staff there are of very high calibre and they are recognised as being at the top of their professions. We are anxious to retain these people in Clare. The Minister is fully aware of the views of the people. Deputy Loughnane spoke about that. Being a medical man he understands the position. I ask the Minister to keep in mind the need for a county hospital in most counties.

I will keep it in mind.

Would the Minister elaborate on subsection (2) (b)? It provides:—

A regional hospital board shall perform such functions as may be prescribed in relation to the general organisation and development of hospital services in an efficient and satisfactory manner in the hospitals administered by health boards and other bodies in its functional area which are engaged in the provision of services under this Act.

In most areas there will be existing voluntary hospitals functioning under voluntary boards. To what extent will the new regional hospital board have either the right or the authority to upset the working of these boards, to interfere with what the hospitals are doing, and to give definite directions and instructions? This could be a very sticky wicket and I should like to hear what the Minister has to say about it. I have always recognised the need for some overall authority to ensure that the potential of all hospitals is fully utilised. We did have the situation in which hospital beds were provided at enormous cost and never occupied. We also had the situation in which hospitals had many unoccupied beds over long periods and yet it was impossible to admit people. This is the kind of overall function that could well be performed by a body like a regional hospital board. But there should be no question of dictating to these voluntary hospitals which have given such excellent service over the years. Would the Minister give us some idea of the kind of functions the board will perform in relation to what is described as the general organisation and development of hospital services? How far can they go on this board beyond giving advice and ensuring that the best possible use is being made of the potential in the area?

If the Deputy reads what I said he will find that, in the course of the debate, I outlined most of this. The Hospitals Commission was set up under the 1933 Act. That commission is being dissolved and its work will be done by Comhairle na nOspidéal and the regional hospital boards. The functions of the Hospitals Commission were to record and digest information in relation to hospital and nursing facilities, the needs of the people for such facilities and the adjustment of such facilities to such needs; to investigate and report to the Minister on every matter relating to hospital or nursing facilities referred to them by the Minister for such investigation and report; and to make and submit to the Minister schemes for the improvement and co-ordination of hospital or nursing facilities or both hospital and nursing facilities in any part of the country. They also had power to examine the voluntary hospitals and report on the accounts and, in so doing, to recommend the amount of grant from the Hospitals Trust Fund to meet deficits. There were the general powers of the Hospitals Commission. These will be transferred to the regional hospital board which will receive the budgets of the health boards in respect of their hospitals and the budgets of the voluntary hospitals in the area. The regional hospital board will examine them and make proposals for the improvement of hospital administration. They could engage in work study of various kinds. They could encourage more central services to reduce the burden of costs in certain areas of administration. There is no intention to invade the existing privileges of the voluntary hospitals through the operation of the regional hospital board.

The whole purpose of this Bill is to integrate the work of the voluntary hospital and the local authority hospital because of the frightening cost of hospital management. The voluntary hospitals, I am glad to say, accepted very readily the need for that general progress towards co-ordination and integration and the Medical Association have accepted the formation of Comhairle na nOspidéal which will have certain regulatory powers of a kind not used before except in a very vague way. The Deputy need have no fear that there will be any trouble with these voluntary hospitals which have served the country so well. The Hospitals Commission was a centralised body; its work is now being decentralised.

The side heading reads: "Bodies for co-ordination and development of hospital services." I go a long way with Deputy Clinton in agreeing that we will have a multiplicity of boards. I gather one of the main functions of the Bill is to co-ordinate services and reduce overhead charges as far as possible. I should like the Minister to give us some information about that. If there is a multiplicity of boards there will also be an increased secretariat. It seems to me that Comhairle na nOspidéal will take over to a large extent the functions of voluntary institutions.

All State boards cost a certain amount of money. Even though the individuals concerned on the boards are not actually paid, there are travelling and other expenses. It seems to me that, apart from a certain amount of confusion which will be caused by this multiplicity of boards, there will be considerable overhead costs and I am not satisfied that we will get a better co-ordinated health service. Let us hope that we will, but I am not satisfied that we will get a more economic health service. It has been my belief from the implementation of the Act of 1953—the first Act that I was concerned with in this House—that the great struggle was to endeavour to give to the people the best medical services possible at the cheapest rates.

One of the curses of the health service has been the administrative costs, which have been increasing all the time. This Health Act, as a whole, is built largely on the idea that administration should be made more perfect and brought more to date and that we should reduce the administrative charges. Personally, I cannot see how that would happen but I may be wrong on that point. Perhaps, the Minister will make a short statement on this before we leave the section.

I welcome very much the Minister's statement that he will produce a White Paper, that is, a White Paper that the ordinary individual can understand without having a supersonic brain. My experience of White Papers during the years has been that I go back from them to the Bill itself and end up very confused.

Some of the staff of the Hospitals Commission will play a very useful part on transfer, which I am sure they will accept, to the Dublin Regional Hospital Board. The staffs of the other boards will have to be recruited as a result of the inevitable administrative changes that will take place. When the regional hospital boards are formed there should be certain savings and certain rationalisation. The local medical officers will continue to have to work in their county areas. It would be very difficult for me to forecast the total cost of administrative staffs but I have been discussing this with the officers of my Department and it is quite obvious that the Hospitals Trust Fund will have to pay the cost of the staffs of Comhairle na nOspidéal. That is quite evident. There will have to be a sort of management examination in each area for which chief executive officers will be responsible so as to ensure that there is no Parkinsonian development of staff. However, the principal increases in the cost of administration in the past ten years have been caused by the very great increase in the salaries and wages of staff. Some of these were what have been described familiarly as status increases. The House well knows the reason for this. There was a time when virtually the only administrative jobs open in this country were in the Civil Service and local authorities and the people were glad enough to have them. That applied also to the Post Office. There has been a very great jump in salaries and wages of health staffs throughout the country.

Nurses in all countries until recently were very badly paid. On a job analysis basis and taking the human factor into consideration, it is very hard to say whether they are yet adequately paid; but I am glad to say with regard to in-living nurses, pay and conditions are very satisfactory by comparison with England as a result of the recent increases, increments and reduction in working hours.

Therefore, I do not think that the increase in costs were due to what might be described as red tape administration but that they were largely due to increases in salaries and wages. I have not been in the Department long enough to have been able to make a survey of this but I am very interested in management courses. When I was in charge of eight State companies I did my utmost to persuade them to make use of every sort of technique to ensure maximum efficiency and I am glad to say that many of them show efficiency. I hope that will be the case in respect of the health boards and I must say that I was delighted to hear great praise from all sides of the House about the general management of the Dublin Health Authority. I understand that that authority is very well-conducted and I have not heard any suggestion to the effect that the people who are heading the Dublin Health Authority have engaged in Parkinsonian practices in regard to staff. I hope that is the case. That implication was there in everything that was said.

I have said that I do not think the cost of the staffs of the regional health boards or of Comhairle na nOspidéal will bear heavily on the rates or taxation in relation to the huge amount of £52 million that we are spending. We will consider every possible method of keeping the cost to the minimum, consistent with the inevitable transfers and without any worsening in conditions of staffs. I have discussed this with officers of my Department and it seems that we may be able to get help for this very big operation by providing some people who are skilled in the practice of administration, not a private commercial administration necessarily because the two are not the same: running an insurance company is not the same as running a health service and giving medical cards, although there are elements common to both operations. However, great care must be taken to distinguish between one and the other. That is all the assurance I can give the House in regard to this matter.

We must separate from our minds the evidence of advisory committees. I hope they will do very useful work, but they are not executive committees. The executive committees will consist of a smaller number of health authorities than now exist. As the House knows, there is one for every county with the exception of the Dublin area but there will be a smaller number of regional health boards, plus Comhairle na nOspidéal. I hope that the whole operation will move smoothly but I agree that it will need careful consideration. Therefore, I shall be very glad, on the occasion of Health Estimates or in connection with any new resolution that might be moved in the House, to have constructive criticism of the operation of these boards and this new elaborate organisation in the year 1972, if I still happen to hold office.

It is proposed to dissolve the Hospitals Commission but I understand that the members of the commission receive some small fee for their services. Will the members of the comhairle receive like remuneration and is it proposed that the members of the dissolved Hospitals Commission will be appointed to Comhairle na nOspidéal?

Not automatically, certainly not. They understand that the commission will be dissolved and the date of the expiration of the term of office of the board is not later than 31st December, 1970. They understand the position. In fact, they have been given an undertaking that they will not be dissolved before June, 1971.

What is the amount of the remuneration they receive and will it go to the comhairle?

It is not proposed in this instance to remunerate Comhairle na nOspidéal.

Some of the members of the Hospitals Commission have given very good service down the years. A number are, indeed, senior citizens. It might be rather unfair to them to withdraw, without some consideration for their financial position. I think some of them are not extremely wealthy. I do not know whether there is any proposal to give them any compensation in respect of the denial to them in future of whatever remuneration they do get. Perhaps, this is a matter for the next section.

Those members of the Hospitals Commission who retired in times past have never been given any compensation. I think they know the position pretty well.

Section, as amended, agreed to.
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 41.

I move amendment No. 52:

In subsection (2), page 23, line 45, to delete "any officer of the Commission to" and to insert "the holder of any office under the Commission to a similar office under".

The object of this amendment is to make clear that, when the Hospitals Commission is dissolved, the office under one of the bodies established under the Bill to which such person will be transferred will be similar to the office which he held under the commission. This applies to the staff of the Hospitals Commission. It is really one of the clauses that guarantees continuity of service to people affected by the Bill in the same way as in the case of those who hold office in a county health authority who would be transferred to the regional health board authority. It applies to the staff of the commission.

Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That section 41, as amended, stand part of the Bill".

I think we should not dissolve the Hospitals Commission without paying tribute on this occasion to the civic-minded people who, down the years, have served on this commission. It did great work in its time. It acted during a time of great change and great challenge. It kept the Irish hospitals system very much to the forefront of the hospitals of the world. In recent times, however, the changes in medical science and knowledge and techniques have advanced rather more rapidly than the structure of our existing hospital services. The fact that tremendous changes are now proposed is in no way a reflection on the Hospitals Commission which has done well in its time. It deserves well and it deserves the gratitude of the Irish people. I think we in Dáil Éireann should record that fact on this occasion; thank them for what they have done; wish them well and hope that some of them at least will see service in the new Comhairle na nOspidéal.

I agree with the Deputy. I think tribute should be paid to the Hospitals Commission. Although we still have a great deal of work to do to provide the most modern of techniques in regard to hospital operation and equipment, I was delighted to find when I became Minister, the amount of modern hospital equipment that has been made available in this country in some of the voluntary hospitals and in the regional hospitals. That has been as a result of the preparatory work of exploration and examination by the Hospitals Commission reporting to the Minister for Health. I quite agree with the Deputy.

With regard to the abolition of the Hospitals Commission the function, as I know it, of the Hospitals Commission was to utilise to the best purposes the funds that were available. When an application came in from a hospital for, say, an increase in X-ray equipment or any other section of it, it was the function of the Hospitals Commission to decide whether that was a good idea. It was the function of the Hospitals Commission to decide whether that was a good idea. It was their function to see that the money was utilised in the best possible way to secure the most advantageous services in our hospitals, taking them as a whole. Now that they are disappearing altogether, my query is whether their function—the function I have just cited—is to be taken over by Comhairle na nOspidéal. Will they take over absolutely all the functions that the Hospitals Commission had?

The regional hospital boards will take over that function. In my Department, we shall naturally look at every modern technique in the same way. We can refer these proposals to the regional hospital boards and Comhairle na nOspidéal. My Department must continue to be the Department where we receive the reports of what is going on everywhere, in every country, and to feed these to Comhairle na nOspidéal and to the regional hospital boards. I have already explained how the functions of the Hospitals Commission will be divided. This, again, will be a matter of my Department operating in conjunction with these new bodies. If it is essential to have consultation with them jointly, that can be done. We can consult the comhairle at any time. We could consult representatives of the regional hospital boards if we wanted to suggest that we had some new equipment or some new facilities in mind. Then, of course, we also have the many groups of consultants who come to see us. I have never been in any Department where there was so much perpetual consultation on every conceivable matter as there is in the Department of Health. The officers of my Department are most anxious to bring forward new ideas and to consult with everybody. The Department of Health is a vastly consultative organisation. I do not think the Deputy need fear that there will be a lack of facilities for this.

The fact that we are forming three different types of board does not mean that there will not be continuous consultation with people who come to see us on all sorts of matters. For example, if somebody wants to discuss an intensive care unit, which is a very expensive operation, in addition to going to the Dublin Regional Hospital Board there is not any reason why the promoters of that idea could not come to discuss it with our chief medical officer and get his views on it. There will have to be co-ordination of operation and an avoidance of overlapping of decision-making. That will all have to be provided as a result of the inevitable changes that will take place in how my Department work in relation to the regional hospital boards and Comhairle na nOspidéal. I could not go further into it; I have until April, 1971, to think out this super-management structure in my Department. I even have the Devlin Report in relation to that to consider. I could not go into any further detail today. I have not had enough experience. Indeed, these boards have not been formed.

As I understand it, the Hospitals Commission were independent of the Minister to the extent that they had a certain sum of money and they decided with regard to the disposal of that money. My query is this: "Who really replaces them?" I understand from the Minister's reply now that they will be replaced by the regional boards.

They had not any money. They only recommended the payment of money.

Where did they get the money?

The trust.

The money was raised from the Hospitals Trust Fund.

Did they not administer the money?

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 42.

I move amendment No. 53:

In page 23, before section 42 to insert the following new section:

"42. (1) The definition of ‘hospital' in section I of the Act of 1933 is hereby amended by the insertion of ‘or for providing services for hospitals' after `medical research'.

(2) Section 14 (5) of the Act of 1933, in its operation in relation to appointments made between the commencement of this section and the commencement of section 41, shall be constructed as if ‘such period as may be specified by the Minister' were substituted for `two years'.

(3) In this section ‘the Act of 1933' means the Public Hospitals Act, 1933."

This proposed new section would achieve two objects. It is extending the definition of "hospital" for the purposes of the Public Hospitals Act, 1933. Through this means, it would permit grants to be made to the hospitals joint services board, which are to provide a laundry service and provide a sterile supply service for hospitals. At present, it is necessary to make some peculiar arrangements for the financing of the body through the participating hospitals, which is a very complex matter. This board are already in operation and are providing a sterile supply service for Dublin hospitals and they will supply a laundry service. This money goes through a number of channels until it finally reaches the hospitals joint services board. We shall get around that through this amendment. It is possible that other similar boards might be formed to try to reduce the enormous cost of supplies for hospitals of one kind or another. The hospitals can already purchase certain goods at a certain price through certain purchasing arrangements but we may have an extension of this activity or we may ask the hospitals joint services board to do something. They would be able to carry out most of the extensions required.

Secondly, the section will amend section 14 (5) of the 1933 Act which requires appointments of ordinary members of the Hospitals Commission to be for a period of two years in each case. This amendment is in order to permit all the members to retain their positions to a uniform date when the Commission will be dissolved under section 41. That is purely a drafting amendment consequent on the previous section.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 54:

In subsection (3), page 24, line 16, after "commencement of" to insert "an order under".

This is purely a drafting amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 54 a:

To add to the section a new subsection as follows:—

"( ) The officers transferred under the provisions of this section shall not receive less remuneration or be subject to less beneficial conditions of service than the remuneration to which they are entitled and the conditions of service to which they are subject in the service of the Central Mental Hospital."

This amendment is designed to obtain an assurance from the Minister that when the transfer of the administration of the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum to the relevant health board takes place the officers transferred under this section shall not receive less remuneration nor be subject to any less beneficial conditions of service than the remuneration to which they are entitled and the conditions of service which they have in the service of the Central Mental Hospital.

This, therefore, is an inquiry in the form of an amendment to the Minister. In view of the considerable change now and the large number of staff directly involved we are asking him to give an assurance to the House and to the public that there will be no general worsening of conditions of employment of the specialist personnel doing the tremendously difficult work in Dundrum. I would ask the Minister for his views on this matter.

I realise that the conditions of service in the Central Mental Hospital have at all times been those involving very great dedication. I can assure the Deputy that there will be no worsening of conditions nor reduction in remuneration. I gave assurances in regard to the right of these people to appeal to me and in regard to the setting up of such joint consultative councils as will be necessary when these transfers take place and eventually the establishment of better conciliation and arbitration machinery by the Minister for Local Government which will cover health officers. I should like to repeat those statements in relation to this amendment. In view of that I imagine the Deputy will withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed: "That section 42, as amended, stand part of the Bill".

May I say that we welcome very warmly the transfer of the administration of the Central Mental Hospital to a health board. This is long overdue. It takes away from the criminal world the whole management, control and approach to people who committed what were technically described as crimes and on that account were committed to the Central Mental Hospital. We appreciate of course that eight years ago this matter was dealt with in another Bill in so far as personnel were concerned but the administration of the hospital still remained something apart from the local health services. This was bad both for the services provided in the mental hospital itself and for the community. We welcome therefore this change to make the management of the Central Mental Hospital not such a strange and unique thing that it could not be dovetailed into the general hospital service. This is a progressive move and a good one.

We are however, disappointed that the Central Mental Hospital is to remain vested in the Commissioners of Public Works. We cannot readily think of many hospital institutions which are vested in the Commissioners of Public Works. This may raise staffing difficulties where there are some maintenance men or other personnel employed by the local health board and others employed by the Commissioners of Public Works. The probability is that they would have similar conditions of service but there are little variations between local government and central government which could give rise to difficulties. There will be the strange situation in Dundrum that if repairs and maintenance works require to be done the health board will have to make a requisition to the Commissioners of Public Works to do the work. Goodness knows the Commissioners have not got an unsullied reputation as far as expedition and efficiency are concerned in maintenance and repair. It might need a little more speed and expedition than we have been accustomed to on the part of the Commissioners of Public Works. I feel, therefore, that the ownership and the control of the Central Mental Hospital should now be transferred. If the administration is to be transferred transfer the whole thing holus-bolus, or have the Commissioners of Public Works some sinister idea that some time in the dim and distant future when we will all be dead the Central Mental Hospital might be used for some other function of the State, be it as a new launching pad for a supersonic missile or for Government offices? There does not appear to be any necessity for retaining the vested ownership of this in the Commissioners of Public Works. It will give rise to difficulties and it ought be presented to the local health board in order that they may have full control without the unnecessary conflicts which are likely to arise if there is dual responsibility for the institution.

I agree with the Deputy but we were not able to persuade the Minister for Finance and the Commissioners of Public Works to do this. Under subsection (4) of section 42 the Minister may, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, arrange for functions relating to the repairing, enlarging, improving, upholding or furnishing of the Central Mental Hospital to be performed by the relevant health board. I hope to have another go at this when we have a Mental Health Bill introduced here on which a number of matters relating to mental health will be cleared up and there will be improvements in the legislation. I cannot say when this Bill will be introduced. I am afraid that is as far as I can go. I was not in on the first arrangements made in connection with this. I cannot satisfy the Deputy in regard to that for the present.

I am glad that I have lent my voice to the representations made by the Department of Health. May I point out to the Minister that under subsection (4) the local health board will be unable to demolish any part of the existing structure if they want to do so? While power is given to repair, enlarge, improve, uphold or furnish, power is not being given to demolish any part of it. They will therefore, have to send to the Board of Works to demolish an outhouse. It might be as well to have that power if the Minister for Finance is still to remain the landlord.

I should like to support Deputy Ryan and to assure the Minister that we certainly wish to see this residual piece of property handed over by the Commissioners to the Department. I do not think that the Bill as it is currently framed, with the sort of sideways attempt by the officers of the Minister's Department to try to capture this building from the Office of Public Works, will prove very successful. Certainly in terms of a national Bill relating to the health services there is no good reason why the Commissioners of Public Works should not have long ago agreed to the representations made by the Department of Health in this matter. We would urge the Minister to impress on the Minister for Finance and the Parliamentary Secretary that in accordance with the Devlin Report this is yet another shedding of necessary responsibility and rationalisation of the Department's functions. Most certainly this should be under the direct responsibility of the Department of Health. The Minister could be assured of full support if he agrees to this.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 43.

Amendments Nos. 55 and 56 in the name of Deputy Ryan are out of order on the grounds that they involve potential charges on State funds. Perhaps we could take amendment No. 62 with amendment No. 57 as they are cognate amendments.

I move amendment No. 57:

In page 24, between lines 43 and 44, to insert the following new subsection:

"(5) Section 5 (5) of the Health Act, 1947, shall not apply to regulations under this section."

This is another simple drafting amendment. Regulations under the Health Acts will have to be in relation to the provision of standards or the provision of medical cards. Those standards will have to be brought in the form of resolutions before the Oireachtas. Therefore, it is unnecessary to repeat again the provision in the 1947 Act that such regulations come before the Oireachtas and can be annulled in 21 days if the Oireachtas so desire. Both procedures are not required. We propose to bring the resolutions, in regard to those matters, before the Oireachtas for discussion and I hope subsequent approval.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 58 in the name of Deputy Ryan is out of order as it involves a potential charge on State funds.

Question proposed: "That section 43, as amended, stand part of the Bill".

The fact that the amendments tabled by me on behalf of Fine Gael have been ruled out of order because they might constitute a charge on Central Funds is we believe the greatest justification there is for the amendments we sought to make. We are unable to accept section 43 because that section proposes to retain all the worst elements of our existing health services. It simply changes the phraseology of the means test but retains the means test in all its harshness, in all its inhumanity, in all its degradation, in all its viciousness, in all the worry, upset, concern and illness which it engenders. We sought to provide in the Bill, and we would seek to provide in any health scheme Fine Gael had, an opportunity to ensure everybody would get medical attention according to their requirements without regard to means, that everybody would receive general practitioner, medical, surgical and hospital services when they wanted them without having to pay for them.

We believe, and we have proved down through the years, that this could be done under the system of national health insurance. The Government, on the other hand, have argued that hardship is not caused to 70 per cent of our people by medical expenses. That is what the Government said in their White Paper three years ago and apparently the philosophy still underlining Fianna Fáil's approach to health services is that hardship is not caused to 70 per cent of our people.

What is undue hardship referred to in the Minister's Bill? The Minister and his predecessors have given an undertaking that the number of people who will in future enjoy free medical services will not be any greater than the number of people who at present enjoy full entitlement to medical services. Who are the people who now get free medical services? They are the people, to use the words of Queen Victoria's lawmakers, who are unable by their own industry or other lawful means to provide for their medical requirements. This is the same test which is applied in relation to home assistance or pauper relief. Now, guaranteeing not to increase the number of people who will enjoy free medical services we put in the phraseology "unable without undue hardship to arrange" so it is quite clear that the words "unable without undue hardship to arrange" equate "to enable by their own industry or other lawful means to provide".

Our third amendment to this section, which sought to give relief by inserting the words "people who are unable without difficulty to provide that service" was ruled out of order, again, because this small change might lead to a charge on the national Exchequer. At this early stage "undue hardship" is interpreted to be more stringent than "difficulty". Again, the section calls for a more severe test than that connoted by the word "difficulty" before assistance will be given to people in the provision of necessary medical assistance.

The consequences of the appalling means test which we operate in this country and which is far worse than that which exists in any European country is that people postpone consulting their doctors. People, having consulted their doctors, do not sometimes purchase any or all of the drugs, medicines or surgical appliances prescribed for them. It is not everyone who knows, first of all, that they have a right to support for some of those services if they can prove hardship. It is not everybody who knows, even if they have that right, and they have their application rejected, that if they go crawthumping to some politican the odds are 50/50 they will get it on second application.

It is not everybody who knows that, having been turned down twice, you can come again knocking at the door and adding difficulty on difficulty, adding prescription to prescription and bringing in all the medical expenses of wife and all dependent children, that some assistance can be provided. It is not everybody who knows those things who will subject themselves and their families to the indignity of an inquisition by people whom they may know and, therefore, the inquisition will cause greater embarrassment or by people whom they do not know and whom they feel on that account would be unsympathetic.

It is very sad indeed that the social thinking of Ireland should be reflected, in the latter half of the 20th century, by a means test which would do credit only to Victorian lawmakers. We do not speak with contempt of Victorian lawmakers, they had to raise the social sights and the charitable outlook of the people of those days from one of leaving the poor to fend for themselves because God made them poor, into a society which accepted some obligation to those people. On many occasions that obligation was accepted not out of a charitable disposition but rather out of the fear of disease or perhaps out of a criticism which we still hear voiced in relation to itinerants, that they were dirty and useless. This is still our approach to the health services. No matter how humane officers of health authorities may be, no matter how well disposed they may be, they are curtailed by the law; and we feel it is wrong that Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann should again be asked to be parties to what is accepted by all clear-thinking people as being an unjust law.

However, the Minister is seeking power in this Bill to bring more certainty to entitlement to medical cards. We can see there are advantages in this but it is very important that if regulations are made conferring entitlement, they would not be of such a nature as to exclude certain people. Such regulations would be of assistance if they could avoid the necessity to make inquiries into the means of people in certain categories, such as social welfare recipients and others in the category of limited means. We should be anxious to remove as many means tests as we can and we should not require that people who are suffering under a series of means tests from one end of the year to the other should in the case of illness have to undergo new and more exacting tests.

Those people will not have to go through a means test.

The making of these regulations is welcome because it will remove the necessity for having applications processed. However, regulations have a tendency to be out of date. It is not known for regulations to have been made on the basis of anticipation of depreciation of money; it is not known for regulations to be made on the basis of hardship which may arise in the future; invariably, regulations are tied to present or past experience. The real danger, therefore, is that the regulations will be behind time.

In the very next section of the Bill we find a clear example of lack of sympathy between regulations and actual requirements, because there is a means test for limited eligibility in respect of which the means is to be less than £1,200 a year. That is a figure which was considered in 1966 as appropriate, a figure above which people were deemed to be in the middle-class and below which they were entitled to certain benefits. Since then, the average income of the people has risen and now, for instance, in the building trade the figure would be £1,600.

The £1,200 figure first came in in 1959.

Therefore, it is ten years out of date. In any case, it is accepted by many people now as being not in keeping with their requirements. Indeed, I had a reply to a recent Dáil question which pointed out that almost one-third of the people who were under £1,200 in 1966 are now above it. Yet here we are writing into the Act a figure which is already out of date. I hope the regulations will have the merit that they will exclude a number of people in a certain category. It is necessary to have such regulations up-dated more frequently than has been the case in the past. We do not say this in order to delay any beneficial regulations there may be, but it is right that the House should re-state the social thinking of the people, which is far ahead of the Fianna Fáil Government's. The pity is the Government have not begun to realise that medical costs are becoming a real difficulty, a serious hardship for many people. Because of this, the only real solution is a national health insurance system with contributions from everybody in the community who has an income. If that were done we could provide the services people want.

People frequently approach me to ask me about such a service. Workers in the lowest income brackets have asked me to agitate to have a national health service based on insurance in order to do away with all the anxiety, the insecurity and the sense of injustice which the present system imposes. People may feel we are exaggerating the situation. Quite seriously I do not believe we are. There have been constant complaints from people. Some people cannot get medical cards while others with better means have them.

While there is a means test that situation will obtain. It makes for the kind of conflict, the kind of uncertainty, of bewilderment, which leads to a sense of injustice because of the many people who contribute to a health scheme from which they are excluded. We hope and pray the day will soon come when the Government will respond to the social thinking of our people and meet the health needs of our people and adopt the techniques which all other countries in Europe have adopted long ago—a modern health insurance system. We are decades out of date. We are in the sad position, for many reasons, and because of our health services in particular, that we cannot sign the European Social Charter. Because the European Social Charter requires that medical services be freely available to people, we are unable to sign it. Other countries in Europe have not done so for a variety of reasons, but no country has been so embarrassed about signing it as Ireland has. We could not sign it because if we did our hypocrisy would soon be exposed to the rest of Europe and the world.

Let us, therefore, think again on this —think hard and fast and arrive at a solution. I do not think it is sufficient after more than a decade of constant debate on the matter for the Minister to say his Department are having a look at this. I heard this before: we have all heard it before. We saw it when a select committee of the Dáil was used by Deputy MacEntee in an effort to impede the progress Fine Gael wanted to achieve nine years ago when there was a proposal before this House to have a national health insurance scheme. We saw what happened then, as we have seen what has happened every time this has been projected.

We had the present Minister himself, together with the then Taoiseach, Deputy Lemass, saying during the 1965 election that an insurance scheme was objectionable, that it would be a poll-tax. This poll-tax, of which he spoke with such contempt in Monaghan and elsewhere, is now apparently so respectable that it is receiving the consideration of his Department. How sad it is that it has taken so long, that so many people have continued to suffer, and that we have fallen behind the other countries in Europe and modern States in the world in the introduction of an adequate health insurance service. This is what our people want and are prepared to pay for. It is the only kind of scheme which will give us the type of health service which does not impose great hardship on people, prolonging illness and indeed even causing illness and certainly perpetuating a sense of injustice such as that under which our people are labouring at the present time.

Deputy Ryan speaks in superlatives—degradation, viciousness and general injustice. We had two other road-blocking sections, sections 31 and 37, and section 43 may be another. What this section does is to bring into the administration of a Health Act a sense of equality of treatment as between county and county. You do not find these anomalies within the area of a county.

You do.

However you will find them as between counties at the moment. This section removes this. It gives an element of certainty, which I think Deputy Ryan admitted. The section ensures the removal of certain people from the application of a means test and therefore lessens what one might call an inquisition. We have inquisitions in every walk of life where people are getting something. We have inquisitions about income tax and so forth, but inquisitions from a Health Act viewpoint will be considerably lessened by this section. First of all, we will remove the anomalies, straighten out things between county and county; we will define certain classes who are entitled to medical cards and thereby lessen the area where people will feel they are being investigated excessively. To my mind, that is an important thing.

The Minister may make regulations and put them before the House. We may be behind in the value of money and so on, but it is up to the Dáil to remind the Minister when he is laying regulations before the House that they are outdated if that is the case. For the first time eligibility is clearly laid down in a Health Act and I commend this section in full to the House.

The Minister may, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, by regulation specify a class or classes of person who shall be deemed to be within the categories mentioned in subsection (1). By so doing we remove a large class of people and put them into this free category. I should like the Minister to tell us how many people in Ireland are getting completely free medical services, and how many people under the £1,200 bracket—which I admit could and should be lifted—are getting free hospital and medical treatment. I am sure the Minister will let us have those facts. I commend all of this section to the House; it is high time we had something on these lines.

I should like to comment on the reservations expressed by Deputy Ryan. Admittedly, the Minister is encouraging a more sane public attitude in terms of the definition relating to eligibility. Nevertheless, he is ignoring the nub of the problem, namely, that the present and successive Governments have failed abjectly and miserably to develop a comprehensive national health service based on contributions, particularly on a graduated wage-related contributory system for all wage and salary earners in the country and indeed a system whereby the self-employed and the farming community would make appropriate contributions for elementary general rights.

There are many people who will argue—and the argument has a great deal of validity—that there should be some selectivity internally in general services. However, those who argue so vehemently for the principle of selectivity should equally place the same emphasis, they should put the same spotlight of passion, the same spotlight of public notoriety, on the need to make our services as universal as possible. This is a fundamentally disturbing feature in terms of the reaction of those engaged in administering the health services and those engaged in formulating health policy in this country. They have become so obsessed with the administration and the various methods of selectivity that they have failed abjectly to broaden their vision and to give us as good a national health service as possible.

No matter how much we may read of criticism of, for example, the British National Health Service, the adoption of this service was one of the greatest unifying features, one of the greatest built-in national tolerances any country could have had. We in Ireland have failed to interpret and implement the tremendous social vision of the Beveridge Report which advocated universality of the national services of a social kind. We tinkered around with developing our health services and we thereby stand indicted. It is all very well to say that people have got certain rights under the health services and, based on income eligibility, that they can avail of these rights.

I suggest they cannot be called rights unless people know these rights exist. A large number are ignorant and unaware of their rights in many areas because of the peculiar methods of administration of our health services. They get into a situation in which they cannot assess in any precise degree their entitlement to general health services. Whatever may be argued in favour of selectivity there are still very real and obvious defects in the means test system as it operates. These should be the subject of continuous public discussion. They have not got attention to the extent they deserve. Once the principle of the means test is embedded and enshrined in the health services as we now have them, there will be continuous frustration, inevitably, and many people will believe they are being discriminated against on a general selective basis. I think it is the general attitude on the part of many people that they are being denied service on the basis of income discrimination, on completion of forms, on giving to the health services officers their income figure as best they can, and that in one way or another the great defect of the means test is the social frustration that people have in believing they are discriminated against.

But there is an even more serious objection to the services on the selective means test basis and it is the widespread conviction that public services are allegedly inferior to private services. People believe, and the Government have done little to counter this belief, that public services on a means test selectivity basis are inevitably inferior to private practice, where they believe, because they pay personally, they will get better service. This causes serious concern in this House and it is something to which we should address ourselves in public discussion.

There is also a universal belief that inevitably a large number of people will be disqualified for political reasons or social reasons or reasons not readily apparent to them. It is quite wrong that there should repose in the administrative offices throughout the country definitions of eligibility and of assessment of eligibility and the various criteria of income, of illness and family circumstance on what I suggest is an ad hoc basis while people seem to be unable to obtain a precise definition of general eligibility and general qualification for these services. That is a very common complaint and as a result there is a good deal of social frustration which the Government have done very little to offset.

The Minister should, therefore, particularly in this section of the Bill, spell out unambiguously his future intentions on the general question of eligibility and give the House some assurance that within the next four years, at least in the lifetime of this Dáil, a massive effort will be made and, if necessary, a transformation of the whole basis of the health services, to ensure that we shall not have such excessive dependance on selectivity as we now have. Admittedly—and I should be the last to suggest otherwise—services must be paid for in the form of contributions and taxation by the community. I am not suggesting a general free-for-all as many Government spokesmen seem to suggest when we make our criticisms but I am saying that it is not all right to rationalise the whole health structure while, in fact, there is a very serious imbalance internally, in terms of bringing about a more humane and more acceptable political health-social security system based on employee contributions which I have no doubt would be, in many instances, quite large if implemented but which, nevertheless, would be generally welcome. That kind of fundamental prerequisite, as I would call it, for the growth of a more civilised community in Ireland, namely, the introduction of a national health service based on insurance contributions and rights deriving from social insurance, would elevate our self-respect and our respect for the rights of others. It would make Ireland a more compassionate society and, above all, it would temper a good deal of the political attitudes in relation to health services.

I am appalled that there should be such an excessive dependence built up and fostered by the political system of people having to approach public representatives to the extent they do in order to obtain benefits which they are allegedly entitled to under the general health services. My experience, limited as it is, has confirmed the general national belief that by means of a politician going to the health authority and making some special pleading on behalf of somebody or by means of a Minister or his private secretary being induced to write to a health authority or by getting a Member of the House to badger a public servant, some extra special consideration will be given to a case which it would not normally get. This almost universal belief is fostered by many politicians themselves quite wrongly in the sense that we are debasing the health services if that necessity arises.

These are my criticisms. I am urging, in effect, greater universality of our health services. I am pointing out sharply to the Minister that there are serious public criticisms of the means test as currently operated in the health services. I say, unequivocably, that I want to exempt from blame in many areas the public officers and officials who have to implement a totally imperfect system of selectivity. In all these instances there is, perhaps, excessive dependence on income as a means of determining eligibility. There are many other aspects in regard to eligibility that should be taken into account. Reliance on a certificate of income which has been virtually the signal for the issue or giving of health benefits, is far too narrow and inadequate as a general way of making assessments. These are the criticisms which I would make and, now that we have had the 25th anniversary of the Beveridge Report, I hope that in the next five years, within the lifetime of this Dáil, a public universal health service system will be introduced which will be costly on all concerned in terms of eligibility, and that the Minister, with the Cabinet, will come to grips with the problem of bringing in as wide as possible a net of contributors. I do not want to see that net confined in any way to wage and salary earners. There is a large body of the self-employed whose eligibility is very difficult to assess generally, and there is a large body of persons engaged in agriculture. Admittedly, there are administrative difficulties in getting contributions from them and bringing them into the general net of a comprehensive national scheme. These are not insurmountable difficulties. If, in our lifetime, we can see a man going to the moon on a computerised basis and returning safely in the best of health, the exercise of getting somebody who is ill into a hospital, or the exercise of administering a drug to someone else, in an age of technology and computerisation, should be well within our capacity.

Therefore, I would make these criticisms and urge the Minister that when he is replying he should not launch into what I might call a Fianna Fáil diatribe, from which I exempt the Minister: "We all want a free health service, blah, blah, blah", and off we go on a merry-go-round of a political nature. I certainly welcome the comments made by and the participation of Deputy P.J. Lenihan whom I also exempt from my strictures. I have no doubt that the Minister will make a serious attempt to expand the health services on a national basis. This is very much overdue.

As a Deputy who has spoken on this subject many times in this House, I should like to welcome the contribution I have just heard from Deputy Desmond. I hope I did not misunderstand him, but I think he repeated on a number of occasions his agreement with the idea of a national health scheme based on insurance. This, indeed, is a welcome expression of view. I should like to state for the record, if not for the benefit of Deputies who have been here through the years, that the Fine Gael Party were the only party to develop and consistently advocate a national insurance scheme based on graduated contributions.

We suggested that scheme as a solution for the difficulties then apparent in the administration of our health services ten years ago. Subsequently, when the select committee on the health services was established we went into that committee to advocate this idea and this scheme. We pointed out that, as long as our health services were based on the old public assistance approach, we were not measuring up to our obligations as a Christian community. Unfortunately, our views found bitter and, I regret to say, absolutely intractable opposition on that committee from the then Minister for Health. It is worth recalling that, while that committee was still in session, set up as it was to consider the feasibility, amongst other things, of the introduction of a health insurance scheme, the then Taoiseach came into this House —the committee was sitting in one of the rooms in this House—and announced that the Government had decided against such a change in the health services, because it would involve—and this is where the phrase came from— a poll-tax on every person in the country.

The committee broke up because their decision was pre-empted by the leader of the Government but, before they broke up, I had submitted on behalf of my party—I was the person responsible at that time—a detailed scheme for the medical services based on graduated insurance payments. At that stage we were dealing only with the general medical service. In the last Dáil we tabled a motion to advocate our point of view again. I regret to say that, at that time, the attitude of the Labour Party left much to be desired because they expressed opposition to an insurance scheme. They agreed with us that the scheme should be comprehensive, but they wanted it to be financed entirely by the State. They did not find that they could agree with our point of view. Therefore, it is a matter for comment and, I think, congratulation that now in this Dáil, Deputy Desmond, obviously speaking on behalf of the Labour Party, can express in such a clear and succinct manner his agreement with the point of view that we have advocated so consistently and for such a long time.

It is now becoming more and more apparent that, if we are to grow up in relation to the provision of adequate health services, we must accept that the approach can be only on the basis of social insurance. We have tried the other way for far too long. We have tried to have a scheme based on cold public charity with the built-in ingredients of means tests of one kind or another. That scheme has not provided the kind of service the people want. Up to this—and, indeed, regrettably continued in this Bill—we had the taxpayer married to the ratepayer in order to finance a limited service for a section of the community. This has led to a variety of standards, depending on the exigencies of the rates in different parts of the country. It has meant that, generally speaking, there has been a consistent criticism of the kind of services our people were getting. Whether that criticism was well-founded or not, it has persisted and continued.

The fact of the matter is—this I regret to have to say but I am going to say it—that successive Fianna Fáil Governments have been guilty of the gravest deception in relation to this entire problem of the health services. In the general election prior to the passing of the Health Act, 1953, the Fianna Fáil Party went out with posters asking for votes with the slogan: "Should health depend on wealth?" In that there was an implied promise that if they got back there would be a new approach to health which would disregard a person's means. The result was the Health Act of 1953. In relation to eligibility for general medical services, for all the other services which our people required, that Act laid down as a test that a person had to be unable by his own industry or other lawful means to provide these services for himself.

These words were taken without change, without altering a comma, from the public assistance code, words which were borrowed from the last century, from the time when in the height of the famine the purse-proud imperial Parliament was forced to do something for the starving, sick people of Ireland. That was Fianna Fáil legislation in 1953, and it was that class of person only who were regarded as requiring the attention of our Government and of our organised community here. That was an appalling bit of legislation; it was retrograde and it was wrong.

Although my party had opposed the passing of that Health Bill as it then was—we had opposed it from these benches and had advocated then the insurance approach—I found myself as Minister for Health with the obligation of bringing that Act into operation, and I made a pledge to this House, which I am glad to say I honoured, that before I left office I would have that Act fully in operation. I am glad to say that that was done, but it did not mean that I in any way subscribed to the mentality behind the Health Act of 1953, and I made that perfectly clear.

My view the whole time was that we had to move away from what Deputy Desmond correctly called this approach of selectivity, that we had to accept that we as an organised community had a responsibility comprehensively to provide against the exigencies, the hazards, of ill-health for all our people and that we had to do that within our own resources and in the best way available to us. My personal judgment at that time, and I think the view is shared now by many others, was that the approach should be on the basis of social insurance.

Here today in this Bill in 1969, the year in which we celebrate the 50th anniversary of the first Dáil of 1919, we are legislating again—using other words but use what words you like— for the same kind of parsimonious approach to the problem of health in our community as the imperial Parliament did over 100 years ago: "Full eligibility will be provided for adult persons unable without undue hardship to arrange general practitioner medical and surgical services for themselves and their dependants"—new words but the same approach. Those words replace the words "persons who are unable by their own industry or other lawful means to provide for themselves."

Where are we going in this country? Twenty-five years ago in part of Ireland it was accepted as the concern of a community that there should be available a comprehensive system of medical services for the people living in that part of Ireland. Twenty-five years ago the British health scheme went into operation in the Six Counties of Northern Ireland. We are now in a session of the Dáil in which each one of us talked sincerely of how best we could achieve a situation in which all people living on this island would accept common responsibility for the future of this island, a situation which all of us agreed could only come about by the wholehearted agreement of a majority of the people living in the North of Ireland. Here we are, in our first measure of social services since the debate on the Northern Ireland situation five or six weeks ago, saying that in the Republic we do not share any universal concern for the ill-health, the difficulties, of the general population.

Who can regard us as being serious about providing an invitation, genuinely and honourably, to those living in the Six Counties of Northern Ireland to join us if we still approach this problem wearing this kind of blinkers, refusing to see anything except the need that so clearly exists among those who can wear their tattered garments and demonstrate without fear of contradiction that they have no means or have to face undue hardship? Here is another example of the kind of political deception that many of us have criticised for so long, a promise made of a great leap forward, whereas it is merely a play upon words.

As Deputy Ryan said, if we want to forget about the North of Ireland, where are we in relation to the rest of Europe? It is well to recall that there is no country in western Europe today, except the Republic of Ireland, which does not recognise its responsibilities to provide a comprehensive medical service for all its citizens. We do not appear to be concerned about this. That, perhaps, is an exaggeration. The majority party do not appear to be concerned about it. They are apparently happy with a promise of change in new health legislation, but in so far as providing for the ordinary people dealing with this social problem, nothing emanates from them.

The Minister said yesterday that they were considering some form of health insurance scheme for people outside section 43. That is marvellous, but what does the Minister mean by it? Does this mean that this kind of throw-away line is going to be a ration for the people to exist on in hope for the next couple of years? I understand that it was the view of the Government that a contributory insurance scheme was out—that it could not be done, and as a result we had this bit of legislation. Apparently the penny has dropped and we are now going to have consideration of a contributory insurance scheme for some undefined section of the community. I do not believe the Government have given any serious consideration over the last 15 years, as to what is the proper approach to social problems in this country and in particular in relation to health.

Alone in Europe we continue to do what ceased to be appropriate in all European countries at the end of the last war. We are the only country in Europe affiliated to the Council of Europe unable to sign the European Social Charter. We cannot sign it, because we cannot subscribe to the aims and ideas of a comprehensive medical service for our citizens which all other countries regard as minimum. I regret to say the reason we cannot do it is because we have a Fianna Fáil Government back in office. The reason that the Government cannot do it is that they are not sufficiently big enough to recognise that they made a profound social mistake when they refused some years ago to accept Fine Gael policy on this issue. Had they been big enough to recognise that we were right and they were wrong substantial progress could have been made. That was not done. We had a series of operations in which heels were dug in and positions were adopted, decisions were made and announced and all this was precursor to the 1969 Health Bill. This Bill, in the end result, means that nothing much has changed. A new shop front has been put up but the goods being sold in the shop are still the same. There is a 50/50 approach to financing the health service, there is the marriage of the ratepayer to the taxpayer and the selection of those entitled to benefit on the basis of their lack of means. It is the same old thing wrapped up in new words, but so far as progress is concerned there is none whatsoever.

I think it is a tragedy at a time when we should be planning and contriving, within our means, to raise social standards in an effort to make this country more attractive to our countrymen living in the North of Ireland that we have in office a party which has been so long there that it is incapable of new thinking on problems of this kind. It is a pity that the unfortunate people should be given a tawdry measure of this kind.

It could be said that we have heard Deputy O'Higgins' argument before. I want to draw his attention to the fact, since he saw fit to go back, that he could have gone back to the year 1951 when there was final disagreement in the Fine Gael Party on the question of health. I should also say here that, if it were not for the 1947 and the 1953 Health Acts, we would not have the basis we have today for broadening the system. It is all very well for Deputy Desmond to come in here and make what is tantamount to a Second Reading windy speech, speaking in clichés for two-thirds of the time. Deputy O'Higgins saw fit to follow him. Deputy O'Higgins is a man of some experience. He knows a good deal about health, in fact he is an ex-Minister for Health.

I should like to draw his attention to the fact that none of us likes means tests. We do not like the means test in income tax and we resent it in the social welfare system. It is very easy when a Deputy and his party are not carrying the responsibility for providing the wherewithal for the health services to find fault and to castigate the Minister and the Government on the question of means tests. I do not defend the means test except in the context that a Government are responsible for taxation and for trying to re-distribute the national income. The Government of the day are bound to see to it that no section of the community will be penalised and, in so far as it lies within their power, that all sections will have a fair chance, either in relation to taxation or in relation to the social services.

I did not intend, on section 43 and this question of eligibility, to refer to these matters. I thought Deputy O'Higgins had been disabused of the notion that he could formulate an insurance plan which would provide for the extension of the health services visualised under this Bill. I had thought that he was even disabused of that idea when he was a member of the Select Committee on the Health Services prior to the 1965 general election. I want to say that it was not Deputy O'Higgins's abhorrence of the means test or, indeed, his abhorrence of the system then working which caused the representatives of the Fine Gael Party to withdraw from that committee; it was the fact that we were about to embark on the 1965 general election.

That is utter rubbish. I had submitted a memorandum.

I have struck the Deputy on a sore spot.

The Minister has my memorandum there. The Deputy is talking rubbish.

I did not interrupt the Deputy.

But you do talk rubbish. I am surprised at the Deputy. He is generally reasonable.

The Deputy need not be surprised. I am making the point that it was not so much the quality or the scope of the then health services, which we are discussing now, which caused the withdrawal of the Deputy's representatives from the committee so much as the fact that we were facing the 1965 general election and he hoped to have some ammunition in order to ambush us in that campaign, and ambush us he did, and he has ambushed us since on a spurious issue. No matter what Deputy O'Higgins may have felt about the Beveridge plan or what Deputy Desmond, who has gone out of the House, may have felt about it, I read recently a statement made by Lord Beveridge when he was approaching the end of his life and he had quite a different approach to this whole matter. The matter quoted by the Deputies opposite related to the time when he was starting out as an enthusiast and an idealist with his scheme.

Deputy O'Higgins's argument that in present circumstances a health scheme could be mounted, extended, improved, made applicable to everybody by his policy of insurance would, on examination, fall to the ground. When we were in committee long ago and when we went into his thesis or plan in detail we found not merely holes in it——

It was never considered. The committee was dissolved the day after I submitted it.

We talked about it.

You did not. The day after I submitted the memorandum the committee was dissolved.

Yes, we accepted this memorandum. Sorry, we discussed the Deputy's memorandum.

You mean in the Fianna Fáil Party afterwards.

We discussed the Deputy's memorandum and we found holes in it, great gaps in fact. All of us know that the insurable population would not be able to carry the burden of the stamp contribution indicated by Deputy O'Higgins. Even if we had twice the insurable population that we have they would not be able to pay the contribution which the Government would have to seek. Over and above this, when Deputy O'Higgins talks about his insurance scheme and when Deputy Desmond suggests that you could collect what the former Minister described as a poll tax—he was right in so describing it— from those not insured, I want to put it to the House that we must be realistic. As a party supporting the Government, we realise the Government must provide the money. Despite Deputy O'Higgins's statement that we have a very bad health system, we know very well that the cost of the health services has increased steeply in the last ten years and we realise that £51 million, £52 million or £53 million is a fairly large sum of money which it is not easy to raise in a small country such as ours.

I would also direct the Deputy's attention to the fact that there is an excellent voluntary health insurance scheme available to everybody here. The naked fact is that there are fewer than 350,000 people participating in that scheme. I should like to see a survey carried out to discover if the existing voluntary health insurance scheme would not provide a better scheme than could be mounted by the State by a system of what we loosely call insurance.

I do not want to dwell too long on this subject. A great deal has been said about this mythical insurance scheme. We have heard about this nebulous group of people who might be induced into an insurable plan. What I am wondering is why these people cannot be induced into the existing voluntary health insurance scheme. I have nothing against the Deputy's ideas. In fact, I would quite like to see an insurance scheme if I thought we were capable of producing a scheme which would be both fair and equitable and which would attract a sufficient number to support even some small part of our present health services. I am not a betting man but I am prepared to wager that, if a gallup poll were carried out to find out to what extent an insurance scheme would support our present health services, we would find that it would not even cover the 30 per cent who qualify for full eligibility. The financial implications have never been worked out.

The scheme was fully worked out. The Deputy must not state something that is incorrect. The scheme was fully worked out. It was praised. I am sure the Minister has a copy available which he could lend to the Deputy.

Mr. J. Lenehan

We have no asssasins like you have over there.

The Deputy must not make references like that in this House. The Deputy must not describe any Member of the House in that fashion.

Mr. J. Lenehan

I withdraw it. It was not he who did it. It was his fore-bears.

Again, the Deputy will not be allowed to get away with that. The Deputy will again withdraw.

Mr. J. Lenehan

I withdraw it.

It has been said that we are the only European country with a depressed health scheme. I would contest that. I remember speaking to some doctors who have worked not merely in Europe but in Canada, New Zealand and Australia and they assured me that our health services in scope and efficiency were on a par with the services in any other country. It is a bad thing that we should always start to overstate the drawbacks and to perpetually run down our own system. Those who do this should bear in mind that doctors returning here to set up practice find the position far from unsatisfactory. If those who adversely criticise the system were to talk to these men they would be quickly disabused of the idea that we have a poor health service or a Victorian health service. The Vote for health speaks for itself.

Capital expenditure on hospitals in relation to our total national income will bear comparison with expenditure elsewhere. It is all very well to argue that we can raise ourselves up overnight by our bootstraps and abolish the means test, as Deputy Desmond argued. I should love to see the means test abolished, not alone in regard to health but also in regard to social welfare and income tax. We must be realistic in our approach. We have to have these means tests so that there will be equity of distribution in the community. We do not subscribe to the views that a means test inevitably downgrades those to whom it is applied. The fact is that we have to approach matters like this from a realistic point of view.

The scheme visualised here is a progressive scheme. It has been both praised and criticised. I agree with a great deal of what Deputy Dr. Browne said about the hospital system and the hospital boards. If we cannot have the whole cake then we must settle for a slice of it. The successful operation of the proposed system will depend in the main on the plan mounted to work it and on how people co-operate. This is not the first time we have had a provision with regard to eligibility. There are similar provisions in regard to social welfare. Social welfare is working quite well. If this scheme works well we will make progress. We are not, perhaps, going forward as quickly as some of us would like, but we are advancing.

This debate on the health scheme is an interminable one. It is at least 20 years old. It goes on and on and on. We have made such little progress that it is really very disheartening. We are not even back to what the Minister described last night as the halcyon days of the 1947 Health Act. We have gone back further. In this particular section we have gone back to 1913, back to Lloyd George, back to the British House of Commons and the dreadful pauper laws. This awful phrase "without undue hardship" is all part of a pattern and those of us who have watched the whole process over a long time are not very surprised.

The party that have now introduced this Bill have a great record behind them of social legislation. They were responsible for introducing many pension schemes; they were responsible for introducing children's allowances and wet-time insurance schemes and they were responsible for slum clearance. They have much to their credit but I suppose it is inevitable that a change took place with the change in leadership. This change probably started in 1959 and has gone on continuously since that time. It is represented very clearly in the change in fiscal policy. The early party did want to change society. It was a radical party which believed that the ordinary worker in the community needed to be uplifted in relation to education, health services and old age.

However, we now see the gradual progressive change whereby the party have gone away from that attitude and we now find that what they are really doing is robbing the poor to pay for the very poor while leaving the wealthy practically untouched. The insurance principle, as mentioned by Deputy O'Higgins, is simply a form of benevolent capitalism. It is recognised that changes must be made. There are pressures from the electorate as education improves even minimally but the pressures are such that certain concessions have to be made to the demands of the public for parity with what they see all around them, with what they see when they go to Britain or abroad, with what they see when they go to New Zealand —Deputy Carter is not correct in what he says but I will deal with that later— but in these other countries our people see that communities have so organised themselves so as not to have to divide themselves into two-tier classes epitomised in this type of health legislation.

I believe Deputy Carter to be a sincere and genuine Deputy. I listened to him for a long time. He is sincere when he says that he would like to see an end to the means test but he will not see it in this piece of legislation. People like Deputy Carter must face the dilemma which faces all of us and that is if we are to change society in a radical and fundamental way we must first see the end of the stigma of this class type of social legislation as is in this health Bill. We must accept that there will have to be radical and fundamental changes in our whole economic circumstances.

It has been said that economics are the source of our enslavement or our redemption. I believe that to be broadly true. Living in this isolated island in the west, we tend to give the impression that we are blazing a trail and that we are going somewhere that nobody has ever been to before, that we are introducing new ideas but that these ideas are rather dangerous, that we must take our time about them and tread gently before putting them to the test.

There are many communities in which the contributory schemes suggested by Deputy O'Higgins have been introduced successfully. As I said last night even the voluntary health insurance scheme, which I disagree with, is a defective scheme but basically it is a contributory scheme of a kind. However, in my view, the services given are much too limited. We have contributory schemes here in relation to old age pensions and the national health insurance contributory scheme. There is no difficulty about bringing in contributory schemes.

My objection is that we are not going to effectively redistribute real wealth. There are a number of very wealthy people in our community and I want to see a good proportion of the money which these people have taken from them and redistributed among the people, the ordinary worker, the middle-income white collar workers and so on. The contributory or benevolent capitalism schemes are devised to prevent this happening but I have never made a secret of the fact that as an interim scheme—a scheme based on general taxation—I should like to see a scheme such as that suggested by Deputy O'Higgins. It would be an improvement on this old Lloyd George type scheme which is 40 or 50 years old.

The complaint is made that we cannot afford the type of scheme that I would like—a scheme whereby the person who has the most wealth pays in order to help the person who has a lesser amount of wealth and where there would be a general redistribution of the great wealth that exists within our society. I am not sure whether to agree or disagree with that because we note from the records that a free scheme was proposed 20 years ago. I shall not go into that very bitter business that ended in such an unhappy way except to make the point that at the time I was being hunted by one very conservative Minister for Health who had also been Minister for Finance, Mr. MacEntee, who, in his day, was a very radical politician but later became a conservative but who, at that time, still held his radical views. I recall being hunted by Mr. MacEntee and being told that there was plenty of money for this scheme—a scheme that would have provided a free no-means health service for mothers and for children up to the age of 16. It was a magnificent piece of legislation. Many times I have praised that piece of legislation— Fianna Fáil, Deputy MacEntee legislation. It used to embarrass him very much when I used to remind him of his good old radical days. But that ex-Minister at that time used to press me—and I was delighted to be pushed. I got credit for that piece of legislation but it was not mine at all. It was Deputy MacEntee's and the Fianna Fáil Party's, but I would readily take credit for it because it was a fine piece of legislation. He continually pushed me: "Why do you not—?" and so on, and "You will get support from us". I went ahead and got support financially; we are talking about the cost. I got support from the then, again very conservative, Fine Gael Minister for Finance who said, in effect: "Yes, we can afford it; we have got the money", and so on, and then the other business intervened. I am speaking purely from the financial point of view; there was then no difficulty.

What Deputy Carter has got to try to work out for himself, what Deputy O'Higgins has got to try to work out for himself is the question: "What has happened to the economy in that 20 years?" Why is it that he feels we can afford only a contributory scheme and that Deputy Carter feels we can afford only this even worse proposal which is envisaged in this section here in this Bill? It is no good coming in here, year after year, and saying: "God help us, we are a poor country and we cannot afford it", and so on. We are a poor country because we do not set about creating the wealth in order to provide for the service. We continue to seek and to find refuge behind this whine, this complaint, whatever you like to call it, that we cannot afford it. Yet we take no steps to try to see that we can so reorganise our fiscal or our economic policies that we can then put ourselves into a position in which the money will be there.

In the half-century we have got rid of the raw materials of wealth as a result of our various policies. Land, it is under-used or abused. Labour, we export it—one million—and that goes on continually. We have 8 per cent unemployed. Capital also is exported. I would appeal to a person such as Deputy Carter, for whom I have a high regard, to use his good offices within the Fianna Fáil Party first of all to remind them that there was a time, 20 years ago, when the economy was very much—we are given to believe— more underdeveloped than it is at present. Remember, under the Whiz Kids——

On a point of order, we are now on Committee Stage. This has all been argued on Second Stage. Perhaps Deputies who oppose the methods, eligibility, in the Bill would suggest a specific remedy without going into the economics of the country and how money is to be raised. Surely it would be better at this stage if we got to the actual alternative forms of raising the money, without referring back again to the national economy of the country? It would mean that, if I were to reply to these matters, I might have to take one and a half hours—and we would never get the Health Bill through. I do not want to deal with national economic issues but simply with the system in the Bill as it is at present.

It is expected that the Deputy will keep to the section with regard to eligibility.

I am trying to reply, as intelligibly as I can, to the case made that we must have this kind of poor law medicine because we cannot afford anything better. I am trying to make the case that that answer is not good enough; that there is another answer. I am trying to supply that other answer. It is that if we continue with the right wing private enterprise, conservative, capitalist-type policies we have pursued —certainly for the past ten or 15 years and, generally speaking, in the past half-century—then this kind of legislation will go on and on and on and we shall never be able to reach to the ideal which we once had that we should treat everyone equally.

In my approach to this business of means tests, I am not being doctrinaire in regard to them all. Deputy Carter also talked about the means test in income tax. That point has been made. I should like to put this to him. Of course, we do not like the means test in our income tax but there is this great difference between a means test in an income tax form and a means test in a medical health scheme. What it has led to in, say, the dispensary service—and that is all this is: a continuation of the dispensary service—is the creation of a two-tiered health service.

When a doctor is given a bloc grant for the care of a group then, human nature being what it is, we can gauge what will happen. There are many fine dispensary doctors who work very hard and who do exactly what they are paid to do. However, human nature being what it is, there is an understandable tendency on the part of the doctor to act in a certain way. If he is a good doctor, he will have big demands on him. There are demands on him by the private fee-paying patient. If the fee-paying patient comes along to him and says: "I am ill", why should he not treat him? He must treat him. For that reason, the better the doctor the more demands there will be on his time by the fee-paying patient. Naturally, the more time he gives to the private patient, the less time he has for the patient who no matter how often he sees him he gets the same amount of money. There is that difference in the means test. That is my objection to the means test. It is not a doctrinaire objection. It is an objection based on the fact that I think it leads to the creation of a two-quality service—a good service and a less good service. In relation to health, above everything else, you simply cannot afford to have that situation in any kind of illness and particularly in serious illness. You cannot really morally stand over, in my view, the concept that there is one quality of service for the wealthy and another quality for the less wealthy and for the poor. That is my objection to the means test.

I defy anybody to contradict my general thesis that the dispensary service is a less good service, is a second-class service, is a second quality service. I doubt if anybody would bother to contest that view. Therefore, that is one main objection. The other, I remember talking about away back to the British Labour Party people— Bevin, and so on—when they were putting their own through. They had an ideological objection to it. But they also had the objection to this means test principle that it was a damned nuisance administratively—and of course it is. As with even my colleague, Deputy Desmond, I would consider the graded system would also lead to the means test principle but it need not necessarily lead to the two-quality system in so far as there would not be anybody outside the scheme. If everybody was within a scheme, then it is possible to introduce practically any kind of permutation of health scheme. The important factor in having a means test in a health scheme is (1) administrative and (2) that you tend to have this two-tier quality health scheme. The Government have certainly got an amazing mileage out of this whole question of the health services.

As Deputy O'Higgins pointed out, a number of elections have been fought on it since 1951. We had the absurd Select Committee. There was no necessity for that at all because we all know quite well that we had the precedent of the excellent free, no-means test health services of the fever hospitals, the infectious diseases services, the tuberculosis services and at that time the mental hospital services. From the medical point of view we knew that they worked and from the administrative point of view we knew that they were simple to work. Therefore, the Select Committee was a face saving, time wasting, completely unnecessary exercise in public relations. The idea was to create the impression that we were seeking for the most ideal form of health service. That of course was not true. At a very early stage I resigned from that committee because I felt they were only making fools of us by keeping us month after month doing little or nothing.

I do not intend to delay the House unduly on this because people know my views on health services over a very long time. I consider that this is the same sort of thing as the change in fiscal policy, the introduction of all the different kinds of direct and indirect taxation, the contributory scheme for old age, the contributory scheme for national health. Each of these things marks a step in the departure of the Fianna Fáil Party from the early radicalism which won for them, quite rightly, the mass support which they had in the country and which they are gradually but quite definitely losing as time goes on. I am genuinely puzzled to know why Deputy O'Higgins, when he was Minister, did not introduce a serious contributory scheme rather than the emasculated voluntary health insurance scheme which has so many defects. I shall go into that again, it would probably be relevant anyway.

The answer is he was not long enough in office.

Three years.

Mr. J. Lenehan

The people made sure of that.

All right. If that is the answer, fair enough. We cannot lift ourselves up by our boot strings overnight. Deputy Carter knows quite well that Fianna Fáil came into office in 1932 and have been in office on and off, but mostly on, since then. That is not overnight and Deputy Carter knows that quite well. If they really were concerned with the health of the community, if they really wanted to bring in a proper health service they know precisely the kind of health service that should be brought in. They were responsible for the magnificent Infectious Diseases Act, the tuberculosis scheme, the mother and infant scheme. They know quite well what should be brought in. This is a radical departure from a fine record but that record is a very old one now. This is part of the pattern of the deterioration, the slipping into decay of a once fine radical party. It is epitomised in this poor law section.

I do not know whether the Minister for Health claims that this section is any advance or improvement on the present legislation. I consider that it represents practically no improvement. There is one slight feature which I will refer to later on which I do regard as an improvement, at least it gives the Minister scope to do something that could be worthwhile. I feel that where before we had the lower income group and the middle income group we are now just saying "full eligibility" and "limited eligibility". We are still providing services on the basis of a means test. For that reason we find it completely unacceptable and objectionable. Our reasons for this have been comprehensively stated and restated both by Deputy Ryan and Deputy O'Higgins. I shall not cover this ground again. If the Minister insists that we have this section we will have it. From what he has said on previous sections I fear he has no intention of departing from it. I am extremely doubtful whether it will be an improvement to standardise and specify by a known yardstick what makes a person eligible and what makes a person ineligible. Many people are positive that if the Minister says: "If a person qualifies for all these reasons then he is eligible" that that is a good system. We thought the same thing in Dublin County Council about the allocation of houses. We had our own ways and means of allocating houses but now we have a points system and everything is specified and nothing left to anybody's discretion. After working with this system for a long time and after submitting this scheme to the Minister for Local Government, who agreed with it, we find that it is coming up wrong in many instances. Many people who should be getting houses are being deprived of them because the points system is just not fitting the particular circumstances of individual cases. I greatly fear that we will have the same thing here.

Will the Deputy look at subsection (6) of section 43?

This is the discretionary clause. That was already there. I remember when the Dublin Health Authority started eligibility for the GMS card was not operated nearly as well as it is now. A team of experienced people is built up and they learn that there is a human aspect to this and they can deal with individual cases as they meet them. The system works much better when the point is reached where an organisation is working well and has experienced people administering it. They have a far better opportunity of implementing this is a human way than any Minister can do in the distance by specifying that this, this and this makes one eligible. One must look at individual cases. I have no doubt that it would be an improvement if the Minister specified, for instance, that old age pensioners and a number of other classes were automatically eligible and that it was only a waste of time investigating their cases, but apart from that one should go out and see the particular case because there are a whole lot of circumstances that cannot be described on paper but can be seen by an experienced eye and by a person who is good and tactful at the job. It is a human problem and can only be approached in that way. I have considerable doubt whether a mixture of two systems would not work much better.

Nobody has ever given me a figure for the cost of administering a means test but it must be enormous. We have a system here where there are two, three or four investigations to see whether people qualify for various social services. This is something which has never really been straightened out. I really got up to say that the Minister in this section has power, for instance where there are children with certain permanent and long-term ailments, to be specified by him, to give help regardless of whether their parents are eligible or not. This gives the Minister an opportunity to do something which I have been trying to get done since I came into this House. We have the deplorable case of a family with a mentally retarded child and for 16 years that child has to be paid for if the parents are over the income limit. As soon as the child reaches 17 years of age he is given free treatment. If it was detected in the national school that that child was retarded the parents would have got free hospital treatment for him regardless of their income.

It is unbelievable that this has gone on for so long without being rectified. When the Minister is laying down conditions about people with long-term ailments of this kind I hope he will include this class of person for free hospital and any other services. I made an attempt on numerous occasions in this House to get this type of child free services regardless of the income of the parents. The parents of these children would need to have a very big income to carry such a burden for 16 years without feeling it. Apart from that I doubt very much if there is any improvement in this section of the health services on what we have at present. I have very serious doubts whether this will represent an improvement for people who need those services at the present time.

Mr. J. Lenehan

I have heard a great many of the arguments made here. Several of them appear to be concerned with the question of money. It is rather extraordinary that in the matter of health money should become such a serious problem. When we decided to give what we call, through a complete misnomer, free education, we had absolutely no trouble obtaining the money to put the buses on the road, get the schools going and to get our allegedly free education system operating. Consequently, when it comes to health there should not be any serious problem and I do not really think for a moment that there is.

A great deal of what has been said about this Bill is only commonsense. This Bill will be like every other Bill introduced in this House. It comes in one form and it leaves in another. It is quite likely that when the House has disposed of it, the Minister's intentions, whatever they were, will be converted, perverted or changed around one way or the other. We have heard a good deal about the middle-class, the upper-class and other classes but we must remember that the people who not so long ago were lower-class are now middle-class, if not upper-class, thanks to Fianna Fáil. We here are the people who fail to keep up with the people we represent. We do not really know what those people want. The voluntary health insurance scheme has undoubtedly something to recommend it, though not a lot. In my case with six in family it costs me about £2 3s a month but there would be only a very small amount off the man on the dole. It certainly will not cost more than 10/- a week for anybody who is getting £2 5s on the dole although if he was married and exercising his prerogative there is no reason why he should not get more than that £2 5s. We are all inclined to live more or less in the past and are not inclined to advance with the times.

I would like to examine the insurance scheme which is mentioned. It certainly should be looked into. It is quite possible it would not cost very much to find a solution involving some type of contribution made by the ordinary workers. On the other hand, in places like the West of Ireland where a lower percentage of the people are insured it is quite a different matter. It could happen that it would cost a great deal more to collect the money than what would actually be received.

This is like reducing the pension for an old age pensioner. The cost of sending out a pension officer is greater than the money saved on the reduced pension. If God Almighty came back to earth he would not spend 33 years here now. I do not think that he would be able to do so. It is impossible to satisfy everybody. The point is that no matter who the Minister is he cannot produce a solution which will meet everybody on this side of the House and I think we have enough commonsense among us.

A short time ago Deputy Dr. Browne told us about his Utopian ideas. When Deputy Dr. Browne had the opportunity he provided only one type of hospital. Most of those are now white elephants. I should not like to see the present Minister for Health pursue that kind of policy. I do not believe he will and I do not think any future Minister will. I honestly think any far as health is concerned that everybody should be able to get the services to which they are entitled. I do not know who will pay for it but, as I said at the start, we are now able to pay for free education and we should be able to pay for health services for our people.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 52; Níl, 23.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Blaney, Neil.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Boylan, Terence.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Colley, George.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, John.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Forde, Paddy.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Herbert, Michael.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lenehan, Joseph.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lenihan, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Thomas.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Nolan, Thomas.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Malley, Des.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fox, Billy.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lynch, Gerard.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies O'Malley and Meaney; Níl, Deputies Byrne and Bruton.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 44.

Amendments Nos. 59, 60 and 61 have been ruled out of order as they involve a potential charge on State funds. Amendment No. 62 has been discussed with amendment No. 57.

I move amendment No. 62:

In page 25, between lines 25 and 26, to insert the following new subsection.

(5) Section 5 (5) of the Health Act, 1947, shall not apply to regulations under this section.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 63 has been ruled out of order as it involves a potential charge on State funds.

Question proposed: "That section 44, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The arguments which we advanced against section 43 are entirely applicable to this section also because this section purports to give satisfactory medical services to all the community whose means are less than £1,200 and it excludes all others from benefit, based on the Fianna Fáil credo that difficulty is not experienced by people in meeting their medical expenses when their income exceeds £1,200 per year. We consider this to be entirely unrealistic and this is proved by the fact that even reluctant health authorities within the inadequate scope at present available to them are often obliged on the grounds of hardship to come to the relief of families who are earning in excess of £24 a week.

I mentioned when speaking on the last section that the ceiling of £1,200 is completely inapplicable today. I would emphasise that by pointing out that on 28th October last I asked the Taoiseach the number of persons in 1966 and now who are earning in excess of £1,200, as it was in 1966 that this ceiling was fixed. Unfortunately the information for the whole country is not available but two categories of persons were quoted, and I should like to draw the attention of the House to this, as clearly indicative of the fact that this ceiling is wholly unrealistic and one we must get away from. If the figure was acceptable in 1966 it should be much higher now.

The only relevant data available to relate wage-earners to the earnings figure are those of wage-earners covered by the census of industrial production and to persons in the Civil Service. The number of wage-earners earning over £24 a week—£1,200 a year—covered by the census of industrial production, including building and construction, in October, 1966, was 7,842 while in October, 1967, which is the latest date for which figures are available, the number was 11,263. In one year alone the number of people above the £1,200 a year mark increased by 3,421. That is an immense increase, almost 40 per cent in one year. Since then we have moved forward two more years. We have had some substantial increases in earnings and it is fair to assume that we are now in a position in which we have from 20,000 to 25,000 people above the figure of £1,200 which was considered adequate in 1966. If earnings have gone up so much in the meanwhile, we know also so has the cost of living, the cost of being sick, the cost of relieving suffering, the cost of dying, not to mention the cost of funerals.

Therefore, if £1,200 was the appropriate figure three years ago it must now be substantially increased. It is appalling that we should be fixing our sights now not on what would be the appropriate figure for 1969 but on what we know is a completely inappropriate figure, a figure which is three years old and which is even an old figure in relation to the incomes and the status of people when examined in preparation for the Government's White Paper.

The Government at that time carried out a certain amount of research, as mentioned in the White Paper, where they say they carried out an investigation to determine whether or not hardship was caused to families in the middle income group and above it in relation to the provision of medical care. The Government said their information was that hardship was not caused. Those figures on which the Government worked are now out of date and there must be people, between the figures which they had compiled and the figures which would now be applicable, who would suffer hardship. The various minor reliefs which are given by way of assistance in the case of provable hardship for long chronic diseases requiring constant drugs and medicines are not adequate.

Again, if I may advert to the reply of the 28th October which I received, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach mentioned that the number of civil servants earning over £1,200 per year, excluding allowances, in January, 1966, was 5,286. In January, 1969, it was 8,704. It appears they did not move as rapidly in income increases as other sections. I think it is obvious, having regard to the fact that increases will take place this year, that you must have anything up to another 5,000 people in the Civil Service category who were within the insurable limit in 1966 and are now outside it and who, therefore, will not benefit even under the limited eligibility clause in section 44. We believe this is a very grievous error. If the dreadful system which we deplore is to be retained and if we are not to have what we in Fine Gael would like to give the people, a modern national health insurance scheme, at least let us, if we must operate the old scheme, do so on the basis of present day costings and figures so that the people who were within the scheme a few years ago will be within it in the future.

I think it would be better to discuss this question of eligibility limits in connection with the regulations that will be brought before the House. Section 44 makes it possible to vary the amounts by regulation. Regulations will have to come before the House and we can argue the point whether the £1,200 is still the right figure. As the Deputy knows, any employed person who was under £1,200 in 1967, and was insurable still has eligibility for hospital services. The criterion is that an insurance stamp must have been fixed within the preceding two contribution years. Manual workers who go over £1,200 and are socially insured also take part in the middle-income scheme. I do not want to argue the points raised by Deputy Ryan because they can be raised again. We are dealing with a Bill which will come into operation in April, 1971, and for which the regulations will be proposed.

The only other point I want to make is that the figure of £800 was fixed in 1958 and it was changed in 1966 to £1,200. In fact, if you go back to 1958 and take the £800 figure, then £1,200 is still right from the point of view of the increase in the cost of living. Equally, one could take a shorter period and argue the point mentioned by other Deputies, that it is not right: it depends on which period you take. I suggest we should discuss the rates of eligibility on the resolutions that will come before the House.

Could the Minister give, for the record now, the figure before 1958 and for how long it applied? If my memory serves me well, that figure was long overdue for amendment and that a decade or more passed before, in 1958, the figure was increased to £800. I trust we are living in a more socially advanced time. We should at all times be raising the limit. The desirable thing, and what we in Fine Gael would propose to achieve, is to have no limit at all so that everybody would be brought within a national insurance scheme because the idea of leaving the better-off sections of the community free of levy is, we think, wrong.

It should not be almost a badge of membership of the lower classes to be in a national insurance scheme. It should be a common obligation of all citizens and everybody with an income should be contributing, without regard to the limit. I can appreciate that there are administrative difficulties. People of independent means who have no salary or wages may have some difficulties in regard to being included in the scheme but that has been achieved elsewhere. The Minister has been known to look across the world for examples to exhort us to follow certain lines in the past and I trust that he will be able, in the course of his research in matters of health and insurance generally, to find a community which has this or a similar problem solved and apply the solution to our requirements. I began by asking for one item of information, the figure before 1968.

It was £600 in 1953.

Section 44, as amended, put and agreed to.
SECTION 45.

I move amendment No. 64:

In subsection (1), page 25, lines 43 and 44, to delete "either another officer of the health board or a person not such an officer" and to substitute "a person who is not another officer of the health board".

Section 45 provides that, in assessing means under the previous two sections when an officer of the health authority decides that a person does not come within a category specified, an appeal shall lie from the decision to a person being either another officer of the health board or a person not such an officer appointed or designated by the Minister. The Minister may make regulations dealing with such appeals. The purpose of the amendment is to delete the section which would allow the appeal to be heard by an officer of the same health board. If an appeal is to be effective it ought to be to a person who is not employed under the same discipline, the same jurisdiction, the same advisory code, the same control as the officer who made the original decision.

This is an amendment which the Minister could make without any loss to the Central Fund or to the efficiency of the Bill or any loss of the assessment of means which the Minister wishes to retain. We would prefer to do away with any assessment but if the assessment is to be there we think it would be a good and welcome thing to have this right of appeal. If there is not a right of appeal the whole procedure would be open to some question and doubt and certainly would not carry that degree of confidence in an appeal to an independent authority which there ought to be.

At the moment if a health authority rules that a person has an income in excess of £1,200 a year an appeal lies against that decision to the Minister. Now we are to do away with the appeal to the Minister and instead allow an appeal to a person who may be a member of another authority. We think that is bad. We appreciate, of course, it can also be to somebody else but we think, in all instances, the appeal should be to an independent person and, as I said earlier, that would in no way jeopardise the whole system of assessment of means but would stimulate confidence in the appeal procedure.

In the case of the middle-income group the appeal, as the Deputy said, is to the appeals officers of the Department of Social Welfare. In the case of the medical card, those who receive general medical service, we think that the decision should remain at a reasonably localised level. Therefore, it is proposed that the decisions of junior officers of health boards in this respect would be subject to an appeal to a higher level within the health boards, probably to the chief executive officer.

In a regional board of some size this will ensure the kind of independent view that can be taken by the chief executive officer, having examined the decision of the junior health officer in a local district. This will provide uniformity of decisions throughout the boards' areas while, at the same time avoiding undue centralisation. I honestly do not think we need to centralise appeals in regard to medical cards in connection with the regional health board. We have this arrangement with the Department of Social Welfare because they have their limit of £1,200 a year, except for manual workers, and it is convenient for that reason to do this.

I might add that statutory appeals from one officer to another can be found in the case of the Department of Social Welfare where some officers of the Department, with the title of deciding officers, take decisions on social welfare assistance payments, or other matters in connection with social welfare, and these decisions are then subject to appeal to other officers of the Department called appeals officers

I must say that I have had immense experience of dealing with old age pension and widows' pension appeals which come to me in my capacity as a Deputy and I am sure Deputies have the same experience. I think on the whole that the appeals system, as devised, whereby one level of social welfare payments is examined by one group of officers and can then be appealed to another, has worked fairly well. We certainly ought to give it a trial in connection with the general medical service, relating that kind of appeal system to what will operate in the regional health boards. I am afraid I must resist the amendment.

I am very disappointed that the Minister has adopted this attitude. It is not unreasonable to assume that, where an application is turned down by any officer—even a junior officer of a health board—it will be turned down by him acting under the policy of that board. No doubt he will have certain norms and rules given to him. He will assess the means of the applicant within the rules given to him. Such an officer will be guided by the same set of rules as the officer who is to hear the appeal. That, we think, is undesirable.

I think I am right in saying that this is the first time there is any right of appeal in relation to the issue of general medical service cards. At the moment, a person may be unsuccessful in making an application, but he can try and try again. Perhaps he will go to his local TD or councillor in the process of making an appeal. It not infrequently happens that he succeeds in his appeal simply because he makes it, and sometimes he succeeds because the local public representative knows the kind of information which should be gathered for the purpose of presenting the appeal.

The danger is that, if a person is turned down and told that he may appeal to an appeals officer, he may exercise that right of appeal without adding any information. At the moment, the present system, which I regard as undignified, and which forces people to go to their local politician, at least has the merit that the local politician can, in many cases, advise the person how to present his appeal, how to collect additional information, for instance, not just to make the application based upon the illness of one person but to bring in the other members of the family if they happen to be ill as well, and to set out all expenses, including expenses of hire purchase, house outgoings, transport to and from work, and so forth, all of which is very properly taken into account in the assessment of means, because means has little reality if you do not also consider unavoidable outgoings.

All that is now available and the people who are turned down flatly go through the processes which at least some of them know and they get advice. The danger is that, if they are notified of their simple right of appeal to another official, they will exercise that without having their appeal properly prepared. The present right of appeal which applies in relation to what used to be known as limited eligibility, which relates to whether or not the person has an income of £1,200 a year or less, has a success rate of one-third. One-third of the people who appeal at the moment from the local health authority to the Department are successful. That is a very significant rate. It seems to me that this shows the value of having an assessment made by someone other than an official of the board which made the first rejection.

Therefore, as the Minister has provided that an appeal may be made to an officer other than an officer of the health authority, I would ask him to make it mandatory to have the appeal to someone other than an officer of the health authority. It should be possible to have such an official. Quite clearly, within any health board area, you will have at least one person who will probably be doing nothing else except dealing with appeals. Why not have that person employed independently of the health board? Why not put him under some other authority, be it the regional hospital authority or even the Department? Leave that person free of the control of the health board. Let him feel that he has not got a senior officer in his own health board looking over his shoulder. Let him not feel in any way beholden to the officials of his own health authority.

I believe you will have more independent judgment and, perhaps, a rate of success in appeals equivalent to that which now operates. I know the Minister would be anxious that an appeal should be a genuine one but, if you do not remove the decision-making on the appeal from the same health board as that which makes the original decision, you will have people feeling dissatisfied and feeling that they did not get a fair hearing on appeal.

In the case of the section it is not mandatory and, if the Deputy wants it to be mandatory, I think he might well accept the fact that I will look into this and make quite sure that the appeal machinery is of the right kind, and we do not have to choose another officer of the health board. We can choose a person who is not such an officer.

I hope that is what will happen in practice.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section put and agreed to.
SECTION 46.
Question proposed: "That section 46 stand part of the Bill."

I think that fair objection can be taken to some of the forms now in existence in relation to the assessment of means. I have seen forms issued by health authorities to their officers who assess means containing questions such as these: "Is the home well furnished or badly furnished? Is the home well kept or badly kept? Are the children well clothed or badly clothed?" These are items which should not be the determining factors. There is many a poor person who keeps a good home; there are many people who fall into ill-health and have immense medical expenses who should not be required to become destitute, careless and ragged before they get assistance. In practice, certainly in many areas, these rigid assessments which exist on the form are not taken into account, but that anybody should ever have devised such a form absolutely appals me.

I do not think these forms are signed by the people. They are filled in by the assistance officer. In the case of the means test for this particular purpose I do not think he fills it in on the patient's form at all.

It is purely internal.

Yes, it would have some applicability if it was not filled in by the home assistance officer, but the fact that the home assistance officer fills it in is surely quite reasonable.

With respect, I do not think it is reasonable. It might be reasonable for an officer to make a remark upon this form, but the question should not be specifically put to him to make a report on it. Even a person who is looking for home assistance might be keeping a good home; it might be well furnished, and the children might be well clothed. Again, they should not have to be down to the point of having holes in the heels of their socks, ragged pants and dirty faces and there should not have to be filth and dirt on the floor in order to qualify.

This, I understand, is only asking a person to give a declaration himself about his means. It has nothing to do with furniture or the condition of the house.

The old forms we used for the purpose of collecting information were in the nature of making a report upon the person's condition. My purpose in making this point is to ask that these forms asking for a declaration of means would respect the person's right to maintain a good home and keep it well furnished and would not require him to sell his capital assets, including his personal belongings, in order to qualify.

Nobody suggests that, and when the home help comes into operation, and when some of the other proposals that will emerge when the report on the aged poor that has not been published yet and will be published fairly soon, come in, we shall be providing for looking after the aged poor in their homes. There will need to be a detailed description of the household because part of the proposals will include helping the person to live in his own home, particularly in regard to certain kinds of furniture he can use if he is disabled. Therefore, the Deputy need not worry about these forms at all.

If one looks at the last few words of this section one finds: "The health authority may take such steps as it thinks fit to verify a declaration." This seems to me to be the kind of steps which they might take and which I deplore, that the officer will be told to look at the home and see whether the declaration that the person has a small income is justified by the appearance of the home. I have known of an application for medical assistance to be turned down because the son had given his widowed mother a television set as a present. It might be said it would have been better had he given her medical expenses or something of that kind, but a television set for an elderly person has great therapeutic value. Anyway, we want to ensure that what has occurred in the past will not occur in the future, that people will be encouraged to maintain their selfrespect, will be encouraged to look for help in order to maintain the status and dignity which the home had before they fell on evil times.

Do these forms apply to people seeking home assistance only or do they apply to medical cards as well?

There is a form prepared for medical cards.

Would these questions appear on that?

I never met anybody in my constituency to be offended by the form.

Are these criteria applied, the way the home is kept and so on?

I never saw it in my life.

The applicant would not see the form but the inspector would have it in his fist when he was coming into the home and would tick off "yes" and "no" as the case might be. I have seen these forms.

I am leaving the composition of these forms to the local health authorities. We are not absolutely sure what they are like. This means test is decided locally.

Are things like the tidiness or untidiness of the home used as criteria in determining means?

Not as far as I know, but this can be dealt with at regional board level. There is nothing in this Bill to prevent regional boards from looking at the character of the form to see whether it is offensive in any way. I am sure matters that need to be reported on could be reported on privately by the home assistance officer, but that the form that is signed by the people themselves in relation to their homes would be such as not to offend their dignity. I am certain that could be arranged.

I do not think that is the point Deputy Ryan is making. This is an internal form strictly used within the office. The point Deputy Ryan is making, as I understand it, is that this type of information should not be used in order to assess whether or not a person is entitled to the benefit, in so far as he should not be allowed to get to the point of destitution before he qualifies for the benefit.

We do not really know, because we have left this to the local authorities.

Under the new system will the Minister make any intervention to ensure that items in the home which will not involve excessive expenditure, matters of the diligence or non-diligence of the housewife, will not be used to militate against the person getting medical service?

I shall certainly intervene if I get any complaints of this kind. I hope I can leave this to the intelligence and the humanity of the health boards. There are circumstances in which the appearance of the house may enter into some question relating to the totality of the services that are to be provided in future years. There are other circumstances which should not enter into the question of whether a person should have a medical card or not.

I hope the Minister will exercise his beneficent influence.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 47 agreed to.
SECTION 48.

Amendment 65 in the name of Deputy Ryan has been ruled out of order because it involves a potential charge on State funds.

Question proposed: "That section 48 stand part of the Bill".

I raised a question on Second Stage and, if my memory serves me right, I did not receive a reply to it at the conclusion, although the Minister mentioned by way of intervention at the time, that his experience was different from mine.

Section 48 proposes that the health authorities will be entitled to recover charges from people who receive benefit without entitlement to it. If we have to have this horrid means test, we cannot object to that measure, although we would prefer it to be otherwise. Although a person may have some substantial capital, their means may be such that they are entitled to hospital and other services.

I am thinking of the case of a mentally deficient person who entered a mental home about 30 years ago. The health authority, the ratepayer and the taxpayer has maintained that unfortunate person in a public institution ever since. The cost must have been enormous. The person was made a ward of court because she had a piece of land. The value of that land has immensely increased in the meantime. I do not know what its market value is today but it is probably in the region of £25,000. The situation is that, although the health authority has put in a claim for expenses, it appears that the health authority is not entitled to get a refund because the necessary monetary order, for fixing the levy at which the person should be paying, was not fixed, and because it was not fixed the health authority cannot recover any more than six years' contributions because the statutory limitations debar the health authority from recovering any more than that.

The people who are now going to benefit are very distant relatives. As I understand it, they showed little concern for the unfortunate person during that person's incarceration in the mental home, and from what I gather the person was not very much concerned anyway because her mental condition was such that a visit would be unmeaningful. I do not see why the ratepayer and the taxpayer should have to pay all the cost when the deceased person has in fact left an asset of very great value which is about to be seized upon by people who made no contribution to that person's welfare during her life. It seems to me that the public purse is deserving of consideration in these circumstances.

This section, as drafted, would not cover the case I have just cited. The person was entitled to treatment under the Act because, even though the person had a capital asset, it could not be sold unless the person had the good fortune to recover. I think the Minister should take a look at this section and, if he is going to keep the means test, try to recover some part of the cost for the benefit of the ratepayer and the taxpayer, particularly where the would-be beneficiaries of the deceased are very remote relatives. It might be different if they were the immediate family. I think it would be unfair to require the immediate family to pay it. In this Bill we are excluding the means of everyone except the spouse. I think it would be fair to consider the relief which occasionally falls —I know it is infrequent—in cases of the kind I have mentioned.

As far as I understand, the authorities are reasonable about this, but I will look into it.

I know they are. They do not go after their pound of flesh. What I am saying is that where the would-be beneficiaries of the estate have no moral claim on the estate it is fair enough for the local authority to get its pound of flesh.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 49 agreed to.
SECTION 50.
Question proposed: "That section 50 stand part of the Bill."

I gather the health board will be responsible for in-patient services in a hospital outside its jurisdiction?

Yes, the health boards can take responsibility for in-patient services provided in an area outside the health board area both in a health board adjacent to the health board in question and also in respect of hospital services in Dublin or in a regional hospital area.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 51.

Amendments Nos. 66 and 67, in the name of Deputy Ryan, have been ruled out of order as imposing a charge on State funds.

Question proposed: "That section 51 stand part of the Bill."

This section is one which allows the State to impose charges for hospitalisation. I think I am right in saying the reality of the situation is that the proportion of the hospitalisation costs recovered by way of these charges is in the region of one-thirtieth of the total hospital costs. Allowing for the fact that in the case of proven hardship, which requires a person in a time of stress to go along cap in hand begging for mercy, it is possible to get a reduction on the current figure of 10/- per day, and in cases of significant hardship this can be abolished altogether. This whole machinery costs money to administer. It requires the issuing of notices in the first instance and the testing of the means of the applicants. I would urge the Minister to seriously consider, as he has already decided to waive the puny charges made for X-rays and for minor treatment, waiving altogether the charges in respect of in-patient services. If a person is only in for a few days the cost of recovering the money is greater than what comes in, and when a person is in for a long time it is considered that he has suffered sufficient hardship not to justify the recovery of the money. If the Minister is going to be realistic in this measure he should do away with these charges altogether. If he does not, I will have a sinister suspicion in my mind that the Minister's intention is to increase the 10/-a day. The only justification for retaining it would be to make a more worth-while contribution to the cost of hospitalisation. The present figure is so small that it is not worth keeping.

We shall be looking into this question because the costs of collection are very heavy. I cannot give any assurance as to what will be done after we have looked into the administration costs. Of course, under the section the charges can be made flexible and a new limit, or a number of limits, relating to different circumstances could be substituted for the flat limit under the sections. Any decisions about this will have to come in the regulations which will be coming before the Dáil and we shall be able to have another discussion on them on that occasion.

It costs up to 9/- to process the books and make the book-keeping entry for that payment. There is little point therefore in collecting 10/-. Most of these accounts are paid by instalments and there is little point in collecting puny instalments. It was reassuring to hear from the Minister that he is thinking of modifying this.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 52.

Amendments Nos. 68 and 69 in the name of Deputy Ryan, have been voted out of order as imposing a charge on State Funds.

Question proposed: "That section 52 stand part of the Bill".

Section 52 provides:

A person entitled to avail himself of in-patient services under section 50 or the parent of a child entitled to allow the child to avail himself of such services may, if the person or parent so desires, instead of accepting services made available by the health board, arrange for the like services being provided for the person or the child in any hospital or home approved of by the Minister for the purposes of this section, and where a person or parent so arranges, the health board shall, in accordance with regulations made by the Minister with the consent of the Minister for Finance, make in respect of the services so provided the prescribed payment.

We seek to amend that section by providing that prescribed payments shall not be less than the cost to the health board if the services of the health board were accepted and the purpose of the amendment is this: the health board should not contribute any less towards the cost of the hospitalisation of the person simply because the person is hospitalised in some institution other than one of the health board's own hospitals.

I have known a case of an elderly couple in Dublin, one of whom, needing acute hospitalisation and having difficulty in finding accommodation, found it in a hospital in the midlands. It is a hospital; it also has attached to it a home for geriatrics. The Dublin Health Authority have made a regulation providing that they will make a contribution towards the maintenance of elderly people in that home for a period of only six weeks but here is a position in which the couple in question, one of them hospitalised, the other a geriatric patient, the doctors considering that it was most desirable that the two of them should continue to be as close to each other as possible, not having a home of their own to which to return, are now in a predicament that they are in a home in respect of which the health authority, after six weeks, say that they will not contribute anything towards the cost.

Representations are now being made following a satisfactory reply which I had from the Minister last week, in which the Minister indictated that the health authority had a discretion in these matters to extend the period of assistance beyond six weeks but, again, the health authority, even for the six weeks, were not contributing as much towards the maintenance of these people in the home in the midlands as it would have cost the same health authority to maintain them in a Dublin home for elderly people. This would appear to be wrong. The health board should be delighted that people are able to find accommodation in institutions other than health board institutions and if the next-of-kin of such people are prepared to pay in addition to the cost which would arise on the health authority the difference between the health authority's costings and the costings of a home, then these people should be encouraged to do this kind of thing. It would relieve the health board of the immense capital costs, of the immense nursing difficulties, of all the multitudinous problems which arise in relation to the maintenance of people in their own institutions. The purpose of my amendment was simply to say that if somebody is in a home other than a health authority home or hospital, let the health authority pay as much—no more and no less—as the health authority would pay if the person were in one of their own institutions.

You can imagine how disappointed we are when we find that that reasonable proposal is ruled out of order because it is considered that it is a potential charge on State funds. Why is it considered a potential charge on State funds?—because the State and the Minister, apparently, do not propose that health boards should pay the same amount as it would cost the health board to maintain the person in one of their own hospitals and it is going to fix it at the lower figure. This will mean that health boards will have to provide accommodation which is being provided elsewhere, will have to provide services which are being and could be provided in other places. I would urge the Minister, when he does fix the figures, if he will not accept our amendment, to fix them at a level which will be commensurate with what it would cost the health authority to keep people in their own charge.

I just want to ask a question about this matter of a health board making services available to those who are not of full eligibility. If the FitzGerald Report is implemented I will be in the Roscommon-Mayo health board area but my hospital will be in Sligo, which will be outside the area. May I be clear on this? I take it that under the system I would send patients to Sligo directly and the health board would be responsible for those in Sligo hospital?

That is right. Yes.

Has the Minister any further comment to make?

The health authorities do their best in regard to these people. If a person chooses to go to a private nursing home where the cost is very much less to the health authority than the cost per patient in a regional hospital—it might be up to £4 a day—it is rather unreasonable to require that the health board should make subsidies at the high rate to the nursing homes or small hospitals. I think they should pay a reasonable percentage of the charge. I cannot quite see the Deputy's point. I have not had many complaints of this I must say.

In the case I have in mind—I cannot give the exact figures —let us produce hypothetical figures —it might cost £7 a week to keep a geriatric patient in a hospital in Dublin. It is usually a great deal less than to keep a person in an acute hospital. The family might be able to arrange to have the person taken into a home where, perhaps, the standards of comfort and so on are slightly higher, where it might cost £10 a week. The health authority is being relieved of having to provide accommodation at the rate of £7 a week and I think the health authority ought to pay the £7 a week towards the £10 cost, leaving it to the family to pay the £3. In fact, what happens is that the health authority in many cases will pay only £3 or £4, leaving the family to pay the other £7. People should be encouraged to find accommodation elsewhere, accommodation in accordance with their own standards and perhaps, sometimes, nearer their own home. In some cases the local authority hospital or institution might be far away from the family. If the family can arrange accommodation nearer home the health authority ought to pay the cost similar to that which it would cost them to maintain the person elsewhere. If a case arises where it would cost the health authority more if they kept the person I do not think they should be required to pay the greater amount.

I gather that there is a rate provided for each type of home they go to.

Deputy Ryan's point applies with considerable force to the part of the country where I live— Dunboyne—which is in the region where the main central service would be in Cavan, Monaghan or some such place, but which is much nearer to Dublin where there is a very wide range of services available. It would be very important that people from that part of the country should be able to avail of the services in Dublin which are of a much wider variety and which are much more convenient to them than services in the centre chosen for the region. I hope the Minister will consider the point and make it easy for people to avail of the services in Dublin.

The regional health board will be able to make that arrangement.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 53.

I move amendment No. 70:—

In page 27, line 2, to delete "not entitled to such services under section 50" and to substitute "who do not establish entitlement to such services under section 50 and (in private or semi-private accommodation) for persons who establish such entitlement but do not avail themselves of the services under that section".

This is a drafting amendment. The normal service for eligible persons will, under section 50, be given in public wards as at present. If, however, a person establishes entitlement to the services, but wishes to go into a private or semi-private ward as a private patient, it is desirable that that should be permitted and the charges for such patients could then be adjusted, under section 53, as amended, to make allowance for their entitlement. The effect of this is to put eligible persons who opt for private or semi-private accommodation in much the same position as a person opting similarly in a voluntary hospital. In the latter case he or she would get a subvention under section 52 in the same way as he or she gets a subvention at present under section 25 of the Act of 1953.

Will the subvention be at the same rate as that applicable in the public ward?

It will be an agreed rate.

It should not be less. We should again apply the principle I was endeavouring to clarify on the last section.

It will be an agreed rate. At this stage I could not say what the rate will be.

Agreed by whom? Not by the patient probably.

Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That section 53, as amended, stand part of the Bill".

In our discussions with the medical profession a problem arose: the medical profession had some doubt as to whether it would be possible, under this legislation, for health boards to allow upper income group patients into their hospitals and to prevent consultants charging them for the services given in these hospitals. In discussions, the representatives of the profession were concerned lest the section would be interpreted so as to take away from hospital doctors now entitled to charge private patients the right to make these charges.

I am advised that the legal position is that the section cannot affect in any way the right of a doctor in a local authority or voluntary hospital to charge private patients, if the conditions of his employment in the hospital so allow. This being the legal position under the section as it stands, no clarifying amendment is necessary. I wanted to make that statement because the medical profession were worried in case the Bill was defective. Doctors can continue to charge private patients; they will be permitted to do so under their terms of employment.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 54.

I move amendment No. 71:

In subsection (3), page 27, line 18, before "referred" to insert "included among the persons".

This is just a drafting amendment to achieve consistency with section 50, subsection (2).

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 72:

In subsection (4), page 27, line 22, before "in" to insert "for children not included among the persons referred to in subsection (2)".

This is also a drafting amendment to achieve uniformity with a preceding section.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 74, in the name of Deputy Ryan, seems to be an alternative to amendment No. 73. The two may be discussed together.

If amendment No. 73 is agreed the other cannot be moved.

I move amendment No. 73:

In subsection (4), page 27, line 22, to delete "discovered" and substitute "noticed".

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 74 not moved.

I move amendment No. 75:

In page 27, between lines 23 and 24, to insert the following new subsection:

(5) A health board may make available out-patients services for persons not entitled to such services under subsection (2) to (4) and the board shall charge for any services so provided charges approved of or directed by the Minister.

The purpose of this amendment and the subsequent amendment is to allow persons not eligible for services at out-patient departments in the ordinary way to obtain these services by paying the proper charges. The subsection is complementary to section 53, which makes similar provision for in-patient services. It is clearly desirable that persons in the higher income group should be allowed to use out-patient clinics at health board hospitals on paying the correct charges. The only difference between Deputy Ryan's amendment and mine is that the charges in his amendment are to be determined by the health board and not by the Minister. The charges will be determined in the light of the usual arrangements.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 76 not moved.
Question proposed: "That section 54, as amended, stand part of the Bill".

Subsection (2) refers limited liability. Does this do away with the 2/6d and the 7/6d charges?

And the subsection introduced by the Minister is for the higher income group?

Has the Minister any figures in mind as to what would be the appropriate charges for people in the higher income group for X-rays and so on, or how will the costings be determined?

I am afraid we have no figures at the moment. I could not say what the charges might be.

Would it be open to such people to look to the health authority for assistance in meeting the cost? By whom would the first decision be taken that a person is not eligible? Would it be by the hospital? By whom will the decision be made?

People could be allowed to have these services under a reduced charge. The health board would have to arrange this in connection with the regulations we will make in the Department.

May we take it the service will be rendered and the question of paying for it will be decided afterwards? It would be wrong that the service should be withheld until a cash payment was made.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 55.

I move amendment No. 77:

In page 27, between lines 28 and 29, to insert the following new subsection:

(2) In making arrangements under this section, a health board shall act in accordance with the directions of the Minister.

The purpose of this amendment is to strengthen the power of the Minister to lay down standards for the provision of ambulance services or other means of transport for the conveyance of patients. We have a consultative service on the ambulance service. It has been doing very good work—training ambulance drivers and providing new standards for ambulances and the equipment in them. I am very anxious that the entire ambulance service should be improved as far as possible, with radio-telephone control and centralised in the very best possible way. There has been quite an improvement in the ambulance service but, as the House knows, much more is required and I want to be sure I can lay down standards in this connection.

This is a very welcome amendment. We were disappointed there was no provision like this in the original Bill. I did advert to it in tabling an amendment, but the Minister got there before me, I am glad to say. That is highly desirable. The success or failure of the Bill will depend on the availability of a firstclass ambulance service, equipped with every modern aid, operating around the clock and available without delay to any person requiring the service. If there is any difficulty in obtaining ambulances there will be serious hardships and, possibly, deaths with resultant embarrassment to the Minister. This amendment is certainly a very welcome move in the right direction.

I join with Deputy Ryan in this. As he has said, an upto-date ambulance service is the corner-stone of an efficient health service. Would the Minister tell us if he envisages the ambulances concentrated in one particular place or will there be ambulances stationed at various localities in the particular region? It would be better if this were the case because if the ambulances were all centralised in, say, my own region of Cavan, there would be some difficulty for people living where I live in Dunboyne to get a phone call through to the ambulance station in an emergency. There should be an ambulance station in every electoral area so that there would be no difficulty about telephone calls and so that the journey from the ambulance station to the patient's home would be as short as possible. When the Minister is laying down the standards envisaged under this very welcome section he might consider these points.

The work study involved in determining the very best type of ambulance services is a highly technical one. If the ambulances are controlled by radio-telephone the centre points for them have to be considered in the best possible way. There are two ways of doing it. One way is by studying records. It is possible to computerise the records of all people who are taken to hospital and to find out how long it took to get them there, what hospitals they went to and where the ambulance started and finished. It is a highly complicated business and I hope we will be able to make progress. There would not be any automatic practice of having ambulance stations in one place because the health board was in the larger area. This will be done on an intelligent and commonsense basis.

Will the Minister consider the other point about the telephone service because, with the existing service, it is very difficult for those not in an automatic dialling area, to get through to the centre?

That will have to be considered.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 78 has been ruled out of order.

Question proposed: That section 55, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

We find this section very disappointing because it does not include a subsection similar to the one tabled by me. The purpose of our amendment was to allow a person, in an emergency, to use an ambulance other than the health authority's ambulance. Such cases can arise.

In Donegal, for instance, it was found that the local health authority ambulances were not able to reach the remote parts of Donegal in time to bring people to hospital for urgently needed medical attention with the result that some people died, according to the best medical opinion in Donegal, and this has been established and recorded. The people in the remoter areas of Donegal got sufficient funds together out of their own savings and by their own efforts to purchase ambulances which were superior in equipment to what the local health authority was making available. They also made provision for the cost of staffing the ambulances.

It would not do to encourage people all over the country to become reckless or unduly worried about the availability of ambulances and, certainly, we would not want a situation where we would have a lot of hypochondriacs who would believe that they must have an ambulance following them around all the time. However, apart from the Donegal incident there have been other cases in which local authority ambulances have not been available but where other ambulances have been. There are several private ambulances in the Dublin region and some of these are called into service from time to time by the health authority; in fact, some of them are under contract to the health authority to provide a particular service, but emergencies will arise when the health authority ambulance is not available and when the fire brigade ambulance is not available. In cases such as this it should be open to people who are entitled to free ambulance service to get any other ambulance that may be available and these people should be recouped from the health authority for the cost of using the alternative ambulance.

The only argument the Minister can advance against our suggestion is that it would be administratively difficult to determine whether an emergency existed to warrant the calling in of an ambulance other than the health board's ambulance, but these difficulties could be surmounted. In cases of hardship other than the health authority ambulance. This is one way in which the Minister could supplement, without capital cost, the ambulance services which he proposes to improve. We urge him to consider this between now and Report Stage. Even if it is only a permissive section, we would appreciate if the Minister put it in. It would not be obligatory on the health authority to give assistance but it would allow them to adjudicate on cases.

I am told that under section 25, subsection (1), the health board would have authority to make arrangements for the use of private ambulances, but between now and Report Stage I will see whether the power in the section is sufficiently flexible. It is obvious that the use of a private ambulance while the health board one was readily available would not be justified, at least for subvention, but as far as I know, under section 25, subsection (1), the health board would have the authority to pay for the private ambulance.

Without having to go to section 25 to enable the health authorities to make arrangements for providing ambulances or any other means of transport this could be done under section 55, subsection (1). Section 25, subsection (1), allows the health authority to make arrangements with some other body, but that is in the nature of an advance arrangement system such as arranging with ambulance A to provide transport for people living within a particular district. That is one thing but what I have in mind is another. I am thinking of the person living within the area in which the health authority's ambulances are but who cannot be taken quickly enough because the health authority ambulance is out on some other case. In such cases it should be possible to bring in other ambulances.

The position in my county is that if you cannot get an ambulance you get a car and the county council take responsibility for the car. Deputy Ryan is casting a reflection on the local authorities and not on the Department of Health.

There is a flexibility about this. People may use a private ambulance and if the local authority are satisfied that a public ambulance is not available they will make a contribution towards the hiring of the private ambulance.

Could the Minister give me some information in relation to section 55, subsection (2), whether there would or would not be a charge? What criteria would the Minister anticipate the chief executive officer would use?

This is a question of means. We could not possibly go into that this evening. The general regulations in regard to all these things are coming before the Dáil in a general way: I could not begin to discuss the eligibility in a case of this kind. It would be quite impossible.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 56.

Amendment No. 79, in the name of Deputy Ryan, has been ruled out of order.

Question proposed: "That section 56 stand part of the Bill".

This is a very important section. It provides for a choice of doctor system for persons coming under the Health Acts. I wonder if subsection (1) is rather restrictive in so far as it uses the word "shall" make available. There are some areas where you would be using a dispensary doctor rather than availing of a choice of doctor. Perhaps the word "may" would have been a better word to use. I am all in favour of a choice of doctor. It is an excellent new concept; indeed, it is one which the Fine Gael Party have proposed for a long time. There is also a question of the trend among practising doctors to come together in a group for the purpose of practising. Three or four doctors come together in a city or a rural area to serve an area. They arrange between themselves their time off and the times during which they will be on duty. This may be a technical problem: if a person opts for Dr. A, and Dr. B is on duty, what is the position in regard to that patient? I should like to hear the Minister's views on this matter.

It is also very important that the Minister will come to an agreement as to the fees paid to a general practitioner for the work he does for a patient. I understand that there is quite an amount of trouble with the medical bodies in this respect. I sincerely hope that agreement can be reached which will be satisfactory to all concerned. I hope it will be to the satisfaction of the doctors and of the patients. At the moment, there is a feeling among medical card-holders with full eligibility that they are not being treated properly by doctors by virtue of the fact that they do not themselves pay doctors, that it is a charge on the Health Act. I hope this attitude will be removed by the introduction of a satisfactory fee scale payable to doctors and also to surgeons. This is perhaps a complex field. I am not medically qualified to discuss the availability of specialist or surgical services. It is important to attract into the various areas in the country men of ability, men outstanding within their own profession, and that patients will be happy with the surgeons who will agree to come under the new Health Act when it is in service. I should like the Minister to give his views on dispensary doctors and their future. What compensation will be paid to dispensary doctors at present giving service, a very good service?

I have already stated that in full.

Surely the dispensary doctors are being paid for looking after medical card patients?

I quite accept that.

We have been listening to remarks here during the debate that they are not giving service because they are not being paid. Surely they are being paid by the local authorities?

I have stated that there is a general dissatisfaction among the patients. I have had many complaints from patients who feel they are not treated as they should be treated by virtue of the fact that they are medical card-holders. That is why I welcome the choice of doctor. I hope the Minister will come to an agreement with the doctors and that they will remove this unfortunate stigma on medical card-holders which is keenly felt by the ordinary workingman.

It will be possible to make arrangements for group practices. We are very keen on the idea of group practice, particularly with a group of the younger doctors who will be entering into service some years from now and who will have to be trained under the new Todd Regulation. We are having detailed discussions with the medical authorities. The discussions are continuing, they have not broken down. We are beginning to get down now to the hard basis of negotiation. I am perfectly certain that the arrangement will be one fee for service. It will encourage the medical profession throughout the country who will now begin to take part in the provision of medical card practitioner services. It will stimulate the whole area of general practitioner operation.

It is intended to maintain the present dispensary officers. It is intended even to appoint additional dispensary officers. This can be done under section 56 (2) where they are required and where the choice of doctor system is not operable. Therefore, we have the existing dispensary doctors who will continue until their normal period of retirement. We have the possibility of appointing additional dispensary officers if that is required. We were in negotiation with the medical authorities for arrangements for a fee for service basis for choice of doctor for those with medical cards.

In regard to the provision of choice of doctor in remote areas, does the Minister envisage that any steps will be taken to increase the number of doctors, thereby providing a choice in those areas? Does he imagine that an improvement in remuneration might have this effect?

There has been a very great increase in remuneration in the past three years, so that we have made an effort in that direction.

Has the Minister found this successful?

There are extra payments in certain remote areas. One of the reasons I want to ensure that this Bill can come into operation on 1st April, 1971, is that I want to end the period of uncertainty in the whole of the general practitioner world which has arisen through holding up the appointment of permanent dispensary officers in areas where we know that the choice of doctor system can operate because there are enough doctors in the area, or because doctors are likely to be attracted to the area. There are some of our own doctors in England who would be anxious to come back once there was some certainty in regard to their positions. For that reason I am particularly anxious for us to complete the study of the Bill so that we can have it in operation in April, 1971, and end this phase of uncertainty. I agree with everybody who stated that it is most undesirable.

At the moment one out of every three dispensary doctors is temporary. Some of these posts will have to be filled on a permanent basis because there are areas which are so remote from any area of substantial population that there can only be one doctor there.

We have just advertised for another 18 permanent posts.

Eighteen is a very small drop in the ocean of 250. The Minister should go a great deal further. There are some areas where there will be only one doctor. It is practically impossible, short of a population explosion, to have two doctors because there would not be a living for them, they would be bored. The only way to have a doctor in some of these cases is by having a national health scheme and by the State paying a doctor to stay in these regions.

I agree with what Deputy Bruton says, that the terms of service must be made attractive enough to keep people in the remote areas but it means more than remuneration. It means also reasonable conditions and reasonable conditions include reasonable time off. When doctors, or any other group, in this day and age are asking for every second week-end off and one half-day a week and one evening off a week, it is the least we can give them. I can see administrative problems in giving this in remote areas unless one arranges that people will not get sick every second week-end but in those areas where there are plenty of doctors' plates and where people must pass doctors in private practice to reach the dispensary doctor, a scheme to give doctors reasonable time off should be brought into operation immediately. The fact that it cannot be applied in all areas is no reason for delaying it any longer in those areas where it can. If this is not done it will be difficult to get doctors to work in the public service at all.

Could the Minister tell me what machinery he intends to establish to allow a change of doctor?

The patient will have the right to change from one doctor to another.

How long will the change take and to whom would a patient have to apply?

That is all being negotiated.

Will there be any grounds on which a patient cannot change?

That is all being negotiated. I do not want to prejudice the negotiations. The Deputy can take it that the negotiations will be in the interests of the patients and to provide an excellent service. I would not like to go any further into that now. We are right in the middle of the negotiations.

I imagine very few doctors would wish to keep an unwilling patient.

On the other hand very few doctors would wish to receive a patient who was leaving another doctor.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 57.

Amendments Nos. 80 and 81 in the name of Deputy Ryan have been ruled out of order.

I move amendment No. 82:

In subsection (2), page 28, line 12, after "meet", to insert "the balance of" and, in line 13, to delete "any other".

This is just a drafting amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 83:

In subsection (3), page 28, line 16, to delete "appliances to any" and substitute "medical and surgical appliances to".

This also is a drafting agreement.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 84 in the name of Deputy Ryan has been ruled out of order.

Question proposed: "That section 57, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

It would appear that this section enables the health board to refund actual expenses incurred by people obliged to purchase drugs and medicines and medical and surgical appliances. It seems to be in the nature of a refund, a retrospective payment, and that people will be required to expend money before they receive any refund. At present the system of giving assistance to people who are unable without hardship to provide drugs and medicines is to arrange for the people to collect them at their local dispensary subject, in some cases, to a charge being made on the patients. This at least is a system which enables a person to get them without parting with substantial amounts at the time. In relation to medical and surgical appliances the system is that the health authority issue an authority to the patient to collect the appliances from the manufacturers or suppliers.

The section as drafted would appear to indicate that the person must now make his or her own arrangements, pay the account and having paid it receive assistance from the health authority. If I am wrong I would be glad if the Minister would allay my suspicions because it does appear to be in the nature of a refund which in some cases would be all right if people had cash available but in other cases could cause serious embarrassment and might lead to people postponing getting drugs and medicines because they had not got the cash available. Cases have arisen in relation to surgical appliances under the system as operated at present whereby people, having got fed up waiting for the appliances through the system operated, have gone to the suppliers direct and received them ten times faster as private patients than if they were waiting for the health authority. Unfortunately in such cases in the past when such people went to the health authority to get a refund it has been refused on the grounds that they did not go through the existing machinery. We should not copperfasten it in any particular way. If it suits a person to get advance payment that should be made. If it suits him to get the goods free or at a subsidised cost on presentation of authority then we should allow the person to do that. We should not tie it to any particular system.

In what circumstances does a person with full eligibility not avail of service particularly with a free choice of doctor?

People with full eligibility can get these drugs and medicines, medical and surgical appliances in the ordinary way. They must get a prescription for the drugs or an authorisation from the health authority for the appliances and then they can get these things from the chemist. In the case of the middle income group, I honestly do not think it is practicable with an elaborate scheme of this kind to do it otherwise. Where they are getting a contribution towards the cost of surgical appliances they could, because the matter would not be urgent, get an authority from the health authority so that they would not have to pay more than the net amount they are required to pay to the chemist but I do not think it will be a great difficulty if the middle income people either get credit from the chemist or pay and then get a refund afterwards. Any other way of doing it would be too cumbersome.

It will be in the nature of a refund then? Suppose a person gets credit from a chemist of say £10 and then says to the health authority: "Here is the chemist's bill for £10. You contribute £6 and I will pay the other £4." What is the machinery then? Will the health authority issue a cheque to the chemist or issue a certificate to the person saying that they will pay the £6?

This will have to be worked out. There will probably be something like Deputy Ryan suggests.

Would the Minister ensure a speedy supply of appliances for cases like children suffering from spina bifida and mentally handicapped children?

Is section 57, as amended, agreed to?

No, I should like to discuss it further the next day.

Progress reported, Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 28th November, 1969.
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