asked the Minister for Education in how many (a) secondary schools classes (b) vocational school classes the number of pupils exceeds 30; and what proportion of all secondary and vocational classes respectively this represents.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Secondary and Vocational School Classes.
91.
The information furnished in relation to post-primary schools relates to grades. As each grade may for individual subjects be broken up into two or more classes it is not possible to give the information requested by the Deputy. I can tell him, however, that on average there is one teacher for every 22 pupils in secondary schools and one for every 16 in vocational schools.
Does the Minister seriously suggest that he has no information on the size of classes in secondary schools?
Classes vary in sizes. You have a grade which may consist of a number of pupils who are together for one class, but which may be broken up into various classes for other subjects.
That does not seem to answer the question at all. In every school at any given moment there are children sitting in classrooms being taught by a teacher. Does the Minister seriously say that the Department does not know what is the position as regards the size of classes? Of course the size of a class may vary because of pupils transferring from one class to another during the course of the day. However, that is something which can be got over by finding out what the position is at 11 o'clock or any particular time on a given day. Is the Minister suggesting that this minor statistical difficulty has prevented him from getting information and that he has no idea of the size of classes in secondary schools? I should have thought that at this stage, with his development unit there for four or five years now, all this information would be readily available.
In this context I would regard a class as a number of pupils being taught by a teacher.
Yes, we can agree on that.
As I explained to the Deputy, the numbers vary very considerably because where one subject is being taught there are a certain number of pupils but where a different subject is being taught the number may be halved. I think I am giving the Deputy very reasonable information when I say that the average for one teacher in secondary schools is 22 and in vocational schools is 16.
The average tells us nothing. That average could represent 22 varying from a maximum of 28 down to a minimum of 16 or a maximum of 60 down to a minimum of 10. While it is interesting to have this figure, it is meaningless. I appreciate the Minister's difficulty because classes vary, but surely this can be covered by simply asking each school to furnish a return of the numbers in a class at, say, 10.30 a.m. on a particular day and get a picture as to what the position is at at any given moment. Has that never occurred to the Minister's development unit?
While it might have occurred to us, I would not request the schools to give me the number in classes at 10 o'clock on any particular day because obviously the numbers would vary in every school for a variety of reasons: they would vary because particular subjects might be taught in particular schools at different times. I am giving the Deputy very real information as to the average number per teacher.
The Minister is aware of the seriousness of the fact that in some classes in primary schools there are 50 to 60 children, and the Minister or his predecessor expressed concern about reducing this figure. How is it that in relation to secondary schools the Minister is not even interested and is apparently quite content to have an average figure?
The Deputy is making a statement.
It is a rather foolish statement. Of course I am interested, and not only am I interested but we have actually reduced the figure very considerably over the years, as the Deputy knows, in relation to primary schools.
Has the Minister reduced the figure in relation to secondary schools?
We have reduced our average figure.
Is the Minister aware that the average could be reduced without reducing the percentage of children in classes over 30 or 40?
Has the Minister not simply repeated his answer to my Question No. 76? Deputy FitzGerald is asking for very proper and relevant information which deals with the class structure in different kinds of secondary schools and I think we are entitled to press for that information. There seems to be a great deal about secondary school education which the Minister neither knows nor appears to feel it his responsibility to know.
We have made free post-primary education available to all the children in this country, whereas when we had a Coalition Government in power they cut the grants to secondary schools.
(Interruptions.)
The Chair will not allow any more supplementary questions on this.