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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Apr 1970

Vol. 245 No. 11

Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Bill, 1969: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

The purposes of the Bill are firstly to increase the limit of authorised capital expenditure by the ESB for general purposes and, secondly, to provide for certain amendments in the superannuation code of ESB employees.

Under existing legislation the board are entitled to incur capital expenditure for general purposes, that is to say, for all purposes other than the electrification of rural areas, up to a limit of £225 million. While actual expenditure up to 31st March, 1970, amounted to about £187 million the board, of course, must enter into commitments for substantial expenditure some years ahead. Deputies will appreciate that, in general, it takes five years from planning stage to commissioning stage for generating stations. Therefore, at any given time, the board are committed to expenditure on generating plant up to five years ahead. Capital for transmission and other expenditure does not have to be planned quite so far ahead. I propose in this Bill to increase the limit to £290 million.

The board's total installed generating capacity at present amounts to about 1,410 megawatts. They expect to commission 706 megawatts of additional capacity, half of which will be oil fired, to meet the demand up to 1974-75. This additional capacity includes a 40 megawatt extension to the milled peat fired station at Shannon-bridge, County Offaly. This will absorb the production of the last major bog suitable for harvesting by Bord na Móna's advanced methods.

The additional capacity also includes the 280 megawatt pumped storage scheme at Turlough Hill, County Wicklow. A pumped storage project depends on the utilisation of relatively cheap electrical energy available from thermal generating stations to pump water during the night from a low level reservoir to a high level reservoir. This water is utilised the following day to produce peak load energy and in this way the station acts as a storage centre for electricity.

Although the scheme has received a certain amount of publicity, Deputies may not be fully aware of the magnitude of the work being carried out. The scheme, which qualified for a loan of about £6 million from the World Bank, and which will cost over £12 million, was largely designed by the board's own engineers and is regarded as being unique in civil engineering projects in Ireland. Turlough Hill will be the sixth station of its kind in Europe and only two others in the world are technically more complex, in terms of the height and quantity of water used.

I think the board have, perhaps, tended to be unduly modest with regard to the Turlough Hill project. They have every reason to be very proud of this development. Deputies should take the opportunity to see the scheme for themselves, as I did, and I have no doubt that the board would be delighted to show them around.

When the Turlough Hill area was first proposed as a location for the project, there was considerable disquiet about the dangers to the amenities of this beautiful part of the country. It is, therefore, necessary to point out that the board have so designed the scheme that virtually nothing will be visible from the road. On their own initiative, the ESB engaged a most eminent landscape architect to advise on the problems associated with the project and, despite a number of public statements to the contrary, they have closely followed the recommendations made and have every intention of doing so in the future, if at all practicable.

Controversy at present surrounds the proposed routes of the transmission lines from the scheme. I do not propose to add fuel to this controversy except to point out that the decisions in this case will be for the appropriate planning authorities, from whom the ESB have sought planning permission, and that interested parties can lodge any objections they may have with the appropriate planning authority.

Also included in the additional capacity being provided in the next few years—and another innovation as far as the ESB are concerned—are two 13 megawatt gas turbine units at Pigeon House. These small sets can be started independently of outside electricity supply and would reduce the time required to restore supply to the Dublin area in the event of the main Dublin stations being temporarily out of action. They can also be utilised for peak load, thus avoiding the necessity for installing large uneconomic units—"peak lopping" as it is called.

The question of erecting nuclear stations has been posed from time to time both in the press and here in the House and I take this opportunity to explain the position. The competition posed by nuclear power generation for conventional thermal stations has led to rapid and substantial improvement in the technology of thermal generation in new, larger, higher-temperature units, giving greater efficiency and hence lower cost. In our circumstances, it is necessary to bear in mind the size of station suitable to Irish conditions.

The more competitive nuclear stations erected abroad have so far all been of very large capacity, approaching our total installed capacity. There is a problem in accommodating large generating units on the ESB system because of the base load running which they require, and the risk involved in overdependence on single units. However, the continuing growth in demand for electricity in Ireland is making it possible to use larger and larger units so that the time when nuclear generation may become viable is moving closer. In addition, producers of nuclear generators are now tending to give more consideration to the production of competitive medium and smaller sized units.

Apart from pure economics, we are becoming to a greater extent each year dependent on oil, and generation from native sources of energy, already practically fully developed, now represents an ever decreasing percentage of output. Diversion into nuclear generation would be a safeguard on security grounds. It is thus in the national interest to lessen our dependence on any one energy source. The ESB have already arranged for the training of some of their engineers in nuclear technology and are continuing to study the overall situation. Ireland may well have its first nuclear power station before the end of the seventies.

The demand for electricity continues to grow at a remarkable rate. The rate of increase over the past four years was as follows:—

1966-67

8.6 per cent

1967-68

10.3 per cent

1968-69

11.8 per cent

1969-70

10.5 per cent

By way of comparison, the increase in demand in European member countries of OECD has averaged between 5 per cent and 6 per cent in recent years; further comparisons show that, in the five-year period ended March, 1968, the average annual increase in electricity consumption per inhabitant was 11 per cent in Ireland, 5.1 per cent in the UK, 6.1 per cent in France, and 7.6 per cent in Italy. The growth in demand here is, of course, a sign of economic strength and an indicator of the improving living standards of our people. Our economic growth is conversely to a great extent dependent on our continuing to invest increasing amounts of public capital in the provision of electricity to meet the increased demands.

The board had been estimating future demand for electricity on a 9 per cent compound growth basis but they are now raising this estimate to 10 per cent. Estimating increases in demand for electricity up to five years ahead is a hazardous and onerous job. There is the danger, on the one hand, of over-estimation in which case the unused generating capacity would bring serious losses and, on the other hand, the danger of under-estimation. resulting in load shedding because of inability to maintain supplies. Future demand is affected by the course of general economic progress in the country in the period concerned. The ESB, I might say, employ the most modern techniques of forecasting and they are aware of the latest developments internationally in the determination of more precise statistical standards for the peak load security level.

To meet the expected growth in the years after 1974-75, the board expect, during the next two years, to approve the construction of up to 500 megawatts of further generating capacity estimated to cost £25 million. A further £5 million expenditure in respect of generating capacity being provided up to 1974-75 will also arise during the next two years. Finally, improvements to the transmission and distribution networks and other works costing about £35 million are expected to arise for approval by mid-1972. These sums total £65 million which is the amount of increased capital expenditure being authorised by the Bill. Further amending legislation will then be required, giving the House another opportunity to debate, in a general way, the affairs of the board.

The enormous new investments now necessary to keep pace with the sustained and continuing growth in demand involve a serious financial problem. During the next seven or eight years the board will have to provide as much capacity again as has been provided up to now. Their capital expenditure is now running at over £20 million a year. Having regard to the amount of capital left available after meeting the other competing demands for capital in the Irish market, the board can no longer attract their full requirements by the traditional long-term loans, as in the past.

The board have, therefore, to resort to foreign borrowing and credit financing which involves high interest rates and repayment in a shorter term. This involves higher revenue charges and greater reliance on internal financing. As indicated in last year's ESB report, this is one factor leading to increased prices. As long as the present general financial position persists, I cannot rule out the likelihood that further price increases may be unavoidable.

I might say that the board's charges, taking into account the increase which came into effect in January, still compare favourably with most West European tariffs for domestic consumers. In regard to industrial consumers, there is, admittedly, cheaper power for big industrial users in Norway, Sweden and Switzerland where there are adequate supplies of cheap hydro-power. French, British and Dutch tariffs for big industries give about the same order of costs to the user as those of the ESB. I am sure the House will agree that it is a major challenge to the ESB to maintain electricity prices here at attractive levels.

I have pleasure in recommending the increase in the board's limit on capital expenditure to the House. It is a warranty, a clear evidence of progress being made and of confidence in our prospects for the future.

The second part of the Bill deals with certain improvements in the pension schemes for ESB employees. The first manual workers' pension scheme which came into operation in 1943 provided a maximum fixed pension of £3 a week and a retirement benefit of £200. Over the years the pension rates have been increased from time to time but it became obvious that a scheme based on fixed amounts was no longer appropriate. Substantial improvements in the pension entitlements of manual workers have recently been negotiated between the board, the workers, and the unions.

The principal improvement is that a worker with full service can now get a pension of half his retiring pay, together with a retirement benefit equal to one year's wages. Payment of pension is guaranteed for five years following retirement and a worker may, before he retires, exercise an option to provide his wife or other dependant with a pension for life should she survive him. Death benefits payable under the scheme have also been improved. The worker's contribution rate under the new scheme is 5 per cent and there is an equal contribution by the ESB.

Many ESB workers serve in a temporary capacity for some years before they are appointed to permanent and pensionable posts with the board and admitted to membership of the pension scheme. The new scheme will enable workers to reckon for pension purposes one half of such service, excluding the first two years which are regarded as a probation period. One of the objects of the Bill is to amend the existing statutory provisions to enable this credit to be given.

The new benefits represent a considerable advance on those which applied formerly and the new scheme which was initiated by the board, is, in my opinion, a practical demonstration of their concern for their staff. I am confident that the new scheme will provide a valuable contribution towards the growing improvement in staff relations which the board are so anxious to foster.

The pension scheme for general employees of the ESB also came into operation in 1943. Persons who were more than 40 years of age on the date the Electricity Supply Board (Superannuation) Act, 1942, was passed could get a supplementary allowance of up to 10 free added years for pension purposes. Persons who were less than 40 years of age when the 1942 Act was passed and who were entitled to reckon only half their prior service for pension purposes have in recent years been pressing strongly for the grant to them of a similar concession. Representations have been made on a number of occasions by members of the Oireachtas. The Government have reviewed the position in the light of the decision to reckon unestablished service in the Civil Service in full for pension purposes and have decided to amend the 1942 Act, to enable the under-40 group to claim credit for the whole of their prior service.

The amendments proposed in the Bill are in line with improvements in pension benefits elsewhere in the public service and I am, therefore, recommending the amendments to the House.

We on this side of the House have no objection to this Bill. It has been found necessary to introduce the Bill because of the continued growth and progress of the work of the ESB. It is no harm that on an occasion such as this we, in the House, should remind ourselves and remind the public of the tremendous contribution which has been made by this State-sponsored body to the economic and social development of our nation. Nowadays, we tend to take the ESB for granted just as we take electricity for granted, so that very often there is no appreciation of the colossal strides that have been made by the ESB since their foundation in the 1920s. It is only fair that we should put on record our acknowledgment of the tremendous work which has been put into the development of this organisation by ESB employees at all levels. Those who are responsible for the running of this giant organisation deserve our greatest praise.

Now that we have reached the 1970s, when we are looking towards Europe, we might well recall the tremendous energy and foresight which was characteristic of the great men who pioneered the development of electricity in this country. As a member of the Fine Gael Party, I take pride in putting on record our appreciation of the great work of two men in particular, one was my former distinguished colleague, Mr. Paddy McGilligan, and the other was Mr. Paddy McLoughlin. I have no doubt but that the Minister will agree with my sentiments in this regard.

The necessity for this Bill arises logically from the growth and development of the ESB. While looking over previous amending Bills in the Library last evening I noticed that each stage of the development of the board is on the records of this House. For example, it is interesting to know that in 1960 the authorised capital expenditure of the board was £100 million; in 1963, under the Electricity Supply (Amendment) Act, this amount was increased to £160 million; in 1965 another amending Bill increased the figure to £225 million and the present Bill seeks an increase to £290 million. Therefore, in one decade alone there is an increase from £100 million to £290 million. This is a threefold growth and is a remarkable performance.

Of course, as was pointed out in the most recent annual report of the ESB and as the Minister pointed out in his speech, to meet both present commitments and future needs it is important that the flow of capital for the electricity supply industry be ensured. As the Minister rightly pointed out, a considerable amount of forward planning is necessary and I, as a layman, can realise and appreciate the amount of forward planning that must be done in relation to this industry. Therefore, it is obvious that capital is a vitally important factor in the development of the ESB and in the extension of the electricity network of the country. Since their establishment, the ESB have made continuous progress and there has been an increasing demand for capital.

Certain problems have arisen with regard to the financing of the ESB. In referring to these problems the Minister has indicated that he cannot rule out the likelihood that, for as long as the present general financial position persists, further price increases will be unavoidable. I got the impression that the Minister tended to slide through this question of finance for the ESB. I have read in detail the most recent report of the board dealing with the whole question of capital. This is spelled out in much greater detail than was given to us by the Minister but I assume that he took it for granted that anybody who would be interested in the Bill would take the trouble to read the annual report. Perhaps when the Minister is replying to the debate he will give us some indication of what steps might be necessary in the light of present information in order to ensure that the capital requirements during the coming years of the ESB will be met.

In the report of the ESB for 1968-69 I notice that the board's capital is running at the rate of about £20 million per annum. The report makes the point that the continuing provision of funds to meet commitments is a major problem because of the world shortage of capital. The report goes on to outline the general steps taken by the board in recent times to obtain additional capital. They have obtained capital from many sources, from the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development and from Irish, German, Swiss and American bankers who are in a position to avail themselves of the financing arrangements in their own countries. As the Minister pointed out, a very high rate of interest has to be paid in many cases. However, this is the point on which I should like further clarification from the Minister. It states here:

A stock issue on the home market during the early months of this year was planned but had to be deferred due to the instability of international interest rates at the time. Whilst the board is pleased to have succeeded in meeting immediate requirements, it is concerned at the prospects of securing sufficient long-term capital finance at a reasonable cost to its consumers.

This is a very significant statement and it has serious implications. It may well be that the Minister may have to come back to the House to seek further capital for the ESB. I shall leave it to the Minister when he is replying to this debate to elaborate a little more on the likely financial requirements of the ESB over the next decade and also on the steps that may have to be taken to ensure that they will be able to press ahead with the tremendous programme that has been laid down.

Looking at the figures for electricity sales in the last two financial years, for example, one can appreciate that this is a colossal growth industry. In a breakdown of the sales figures for these two financial years one finds that industrial sales are up by 13.6 per cent, domestic sales by 13.3 per cent, and commercial sales by 9.1 per cent. An interesting point I have noted is that there has recently been a growing demand for high-load capacity, the technical term for industrial users. The ESB report points out that there are prospects for substantial development in the near future under this heading. With the growth of industrialisation in this country and the possibility of the establishment of major industrial concerns such as ore smelting which has been very much in the news of late, demand for electricity will continue to increase. I understand that the proposed ore smelter will use electricity in what I think is a process of electrolysis. I am glad the ESB are conscious of an increasing demand for electricity and are making plans to cope with it.

The increase of 13.3 per cent in domestic consumption in 1968-69 over 1967-68 is very remarkable; in fact, as far as I can gather, it is one of the highest in western Europe. There are obvious reasons for the increase in domestic demand for electricity. People realise more and more the advantages of electricity for domestic purposes. It is safe to assume that this demand will continue and we must also face up to the difficulties which may confront the board in the matter of raising adequate finance to meet their requirements.

The Minister made reference to the possibility of utilising nuclear energy in the generation of power. I understand it is the intention to set up a special board to examine this whole matter. The report says:

The board has commenced the first stage of its nuclear development programme by sending the first team of engineers for training in nuclear technology to the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority.

Apparently these engineers will return and others will then go abroad. The interesting point here is that it is probable that work on the first such station will commence in the mid-70s. That is much nearer than most people realise. I for one was looking to nuclear development as something ten or 15 years away. I believe this is a very expensive source of power and I am wondering if this does not present an ideal opportunity for cross-Border co-operation on the part of the two Governments in this country, a joint effort on the same lines as the Erne hydro-electric scheme.

The Minister made reference to turf stations, and the 1968-69 report reads:

The fact that supplies of turf will continue to be available on the present scale for so many years ahead raises a special problem. The board must now decide between a policy of heavy expenditure to maintain these stations for a very extended period and a policy of capital investment to install new and more efficient plant. A detailed study of this problem is in hand.

I presume this report was written at least some months ago and, perhaps, the Minister will tell us whether this study has been completed and, if so, what decision has been taken.

I am very pleased also to note from my examination of certain reports and documents in relation to the work of the ESB that the board are very conscious of the need to ensure that the natural amenities of the countryside are not interfered with by the laying of cables, the erection of power stations and so forth. It is also gratifying to note that there is close co-operation between the ESB and the Department of Local Government and that every effort will be made to ensure that there will be no unsightly developments which might spoil the natural scenic attractions of the countryside, which are so important nowadays from the point of view of the tourist industry. It is imperative to ensure that scenic amenities are not ruined. I understand high tension cables cannot be laid underground because of technical problems. I appreciate the position and I trust reasonable steps will be taken. An elaborate system of landscaping is being carried out at Turlough Hill in an effort to preserve the surrounding countryside in its natural state.

Because of an alarming experience I had a couple of years ago I would urge the Minister and the ESB to educate the public not to tamper with electrical fittings unless they are qualified to do so. The public must be made aware that even extensions of electricity supply to a farmyard should be carried out only by properly qualified people.

While the rapid growth made by the ESB since their establishment has been very satisfactory there is one cloud on the horizon, which has become darker in recent years, and that is the question of industrial relations. In the annual report for the year 1968-69 it is stated that there were one official and 11 unofficial strikes in the ESB. I do not want to lay the blame on anyone but I think the ESB should follow the example set by Aer Lingus, which is now an outstanding example of satisfactory industrial relations. I hope the investigations and inquiries which are taking place will bear fruit in the very near future so that harmonious relations can be established.

The main point of this Bill is to make provision to increase the limit of authorised capital expenditure by the board. As one who has been critical about the pensions paid in another State company under the aegis of the Minister's Department I am glad to see that steps are being taken in this Bill to improve the pension scheme and bring into it those who were previously excluded. I agree with the Minister that the new benefits represent a considerable advance on those which applied formerly. I am confident that this new scheme will help to improve staff relations. The ESB are to be commended for their Christian and humane approach to pensions. I only hope the Minister will do something about pensions in CIE.

We have done that.

An increase was announced in March but it has not been paid.

We cannot have a discussion on that.

It was given on the 1st March.

It has not been paid to them yet.

To all grades?

Not all grades, pre-1963.

I apologise for the divergence, a Cheann Comhairle. I have no objection to letting the Minister have all Stages of this Bill if he wants them. I hope the ESB will conto make the progress they have made in the past.

I should like to express my personal regret to the Minister on the loss of his father. The Minister is well aware of the friendship which existed between us. I have great sympathy with him.

I am sorry to disagree with the last speaker but, on the question of pensions, I see the dead hand of the Department of Finance. The pensions section of the Department of Finance is the only section I have not served in, so I am not an expert on pensions, but I know the way the pension scheme was worked. The Minister said:

Substantial improvements in the pension entitlements of manual workers have recently been negotiated between the board, the workers, and the unions.

The word "recently" can be interpreted in many ways, it could mean any time from 1943 to the present day. The Minister is just as well aware as I am about how long this has been going on. The actuaries found the manual workers' pension fund to be in a surplus five or six years ago. When actuaries find that a pension fund is in a surplus I can tell the House that the fund must be overflowing. I must ask the Minister to allow me to look at the provisions in the Bill. As discussions have been going on for so long I am sure a delay of a week or two will not matter at this stage. I came across this when the more senior of the manual workers—men who were really technicians and who at that time, five or six years ago, were earning about £1,000 to £1,200 a year—retired. Under the existing scheme they only got about a quarter, £250 a year. This has now been rectified to give them half, which is what they were pressing for. When some of these cases came before the Manual Workers Tribunal this was a subject of serious concern.

Straight away I want to draw attention to section 3, which reads: "...but excluding the first two years of such service". As a person who has always sympathised with the underdog and as befits a person representing the Labour Party in this House, I want to ask why the first two years of service are excluded. If the Minister would take this phrase out of the Bill I would let him have all Stages tonight. I suppose we must look over his head to the old lady in Merrion Street. Do not mind the old lady in Merrion Street. I remember on one occasion dealing with men who were in Ordnance Survey in 1916 and had lost their pensions. There was a delay of 12 months while I was answering the late Deputy W. T. Cosgrave and assuring him that the matter would be dealt with tomorrow. Then I suddenly woke up to the fact that the file was under the table in the pensions section of the Department of Finance. I kicked it from under the table and kicked it through the two House of the Oireachtas all by my little self in about a fortnight and nobody said a word to me. If the Minister agrees to take this phrase out he will not get into trouble with his colleague, the Minister for Finance, or with anybody. I am not being irresponsible in this because I am certain there is plenty of money in the fund.

Deputy Tom O'Donnell has said everything I want to say on this. We all know the great significance of the coming of electricity to rural Ireland. We remember children poring over their books at night by the light of oil lamps and I remember when I was a little fellow stepping into mud which went over my boots when I went outside the back door at night.

We learned our lessons by the light of the fire very often.

I have no serious criticism of the Bill but I feel there is no reason why the Minister should not allow those two years and take that phrase out of the Bill and we will get it through the House tonight.

I should like to make a few remarks not on what is in this Bill but on what is left out. I notice it is proposed to develop more power stations. I regret that provision is not made for the further development of the ESB power station at Arigna. This would involve using the large amount of what is referred to as "crow" or "craw" coal which exists there. This problem is not new to the Minister. He is well aware that a number of approaches were made, originally to the Department of Industry and Commerce and later to his Department, to have this situation investigated. This was done but I was never fully satisfied with the conclusions that were offered to me. I would urge on the Minister, now that the ESB and his Department are disposed to go into the further development of power stations, to go into this question of Arigna again.

As Deputy O'Donnell has said, it is very difficult for a layman to understand the problems involved in the production of electricity. At the same time when decisions are made on problems such as this they should be made in a manner understandable to us laymen. We were told at the time that the object was to produce 15mw and that this would involve the employment of 300 men; that it would take a halfpenny more per unit to produce electricity at Arigna from this coal than to produce it at Ringsend from oil and that this would represent a subsidy of £1,000 per man per year. Those are colossal figures and no same person could urge on any Department to establish an industry in those circumstances. However, it has never been accepted locally that 300 men would be employed on this operation; and if there is this discrepancy between the number of men the Department say would be employed and the number which the local people think would be employed, there must be some discrepancy all along the line. I would ask the Minister, his Department and the ESB to have another "go" at this problem.

It is all very well to say that oil is cheaper but I asked a question here, at the time of one of the many crises in the Middle East, as to where we would stand if we had no supplies of oil from the Middle East. My recollection is that the reply was not very satisfactory.

Deputy O'Donnell mentioned co-operation between north and south. Everybody must go along with him on this, but here again a problem has struck me about this. I understand that the position in regard to the line from Maynooth to Tandragee is that this provides electricity from either side when there is extra demand for it on the other side. I have always felt that this extra demand will be made on the unit producing the cheapest electricity and I feel that this will militate against our turf-fired stations, where the costs of production are highest, and perhaps against our present coal fired unit in Arigna. If at any time extra electricity is wanted, naturally the unit producing the cheapest electricity will be thrown into the grid. Again, on that I have not got a satisfactory answer.

It is probably unfair to ask the Minister to answer either of those questions now because they are outside the scope of the Bill and I am perhaps completely out of order, but I felt it was an opportune time to ask them.

Deputy Tom O'Donnell has dealt very ably with many of the points which I wanted to raise and I shall be very brief. I should like to join with him in paying tribute to the ESB and its staff for their great achievements down through the years. I certainly appreciate very much the contribution they have made by the provision of electric light for homes and farmyards, electric heating and many other amenities.

I had electricity installed long before the ESB was set up because I had to use engine driven dynamos in my business. I had almost reached the stage of harnessing a river on my own land, and I might still do it for my own use if the price goes up. Electricity was a great boon to the country. Refrigeration was a great problem in periods of slump for people engaged in my line of business, handling of fowl and exporting turkeys, lamb and other products. There were no worthwhile refrigeration plants at that time. That involved serious loss to the farming community. We have gone more and more into production of carcase beef, lamb and chickens and the ESB have solved many problems for us. There are hundreds of refrigeration plants throughout the country. Beef and liquid eggs, for instance, could not be stored without them. We are indebted to the ESB for providing them.

Deputy O'Donnell quoted a great many statistics. He is almost as good as Deputy FitzGerald in that regard. I will not bore the House with any statistics. The ESB had not a completely free hand with regard to the installation of power stations. In the case of Bellacorick in North Mayo I would say they were pushed or prodded into carrying out that work. I am very glad that they were. I will not go so far as to say that there were political reasons. While I am sure it was not good economics it brought great social benefits to the area. We must look ahead. I am gravely concerned that, with the passage of time, the supply there may deteriorate to such an extent as to jeopardise employment in that region. That would be the last straw. I would ask the ESB to see if it is possible to have hydro-electric schemes put into operation in that region.

I was delighted to read some time ago about the Turlough Hill scheme in Wicklow. Wonderful things can be done today. Similar schemes could be put into operation in the west where they are very badly needed from the point of view of giving stability to small towns and providing employment. I like the idea of diversification of plants. If we have a nuclear station somewhere around Athlone a bomb can be thrown at it or someone put a match to it. It is a great insurance policy to have power stations located at different points.

I cannot imagine why the gas-powered station is located in Dublin. We seem to be found of putting everything in Dublin. It is also a good idea to have emergency equipment. In my case it was necessary to have an emergency engine which could be used in case of break-down.

People with the responsibility which the ESB have—and they are shouldering it in a wonderful and creditable way—will pay heed, I am sure, when I remind them that we in the west feel that hydro-electric schemes could be in operation there. It might be possible to harness the River Moy, now that drainage work has been carried out, or other rivers. It should be possible to store water for release when necessary.

The proper location for the nuclear-powered station would be somewhere in the North Mayo region. It would give employment there. This evening the Taoiseach referred in passing to the problems of the west. We hear many references to those problems but do not seem to be able to get any of these schemes located in the west. Consideration should be given to the question of locating the nuclear-powered station in Mayo where it would be of great benefit from the point of view of providing employment and giving the people new heart and new life.

Deputy Dr. Gibbons has a problem similar to mine, that is, the problem of rural depopulation. I am well aware how serious it would be from the point of view of local employment if the Arigna power station were to go out of production. I have not studied the economics of the Arigna station. We have a turf-fired electricity station in north Mayo and the Minister is well aware of the benefits which accrued to Crossmolina and other areas. I am pleading with the ESB to consider the Mayo region.

I want to thank the Minister and the ESB for their annual report. It is a useful and valuable document. I usually take the trouble to read it. Great credit is due to the people who initiated the ESB schemes in the early days. We have come a long way since then. I remember some engineers who went into the employment of the board at that time and I was amazed at the progress they made, how they rose from the ranks to the very top. We had to learn from the Germans and other foreigners because we had not the trained personnel. We learned and developed. It is impossible to estimate the contribution made by the ESB in terms of an improvement in our balance of payments.

We are an agricultural country. The contribution the ESB have made in providing the power for refrigeration plants for the many thousands of tons of carcase beef, lamb and poultry is second only in importance to their contribution in providing electricity for our homes.

As the House has indicated by its welcome, this Bill is indicative of the economic and social progress made in our community in recent years. As Deputy O'Donnell correctly pointed out, this measure which seeks to secure financial resources up to £290 million for the ESB, represents a three-fold increase in such capital requirements in the past decade. There is no better barometer of a country's social and economic progress than its rate of electricity consumption. In recent years we have in some cases doubled the demand for electricity per inhabitant in Ireland. All the indications are that this trend will continue to develop in the 1970s. The ESB, with very practical projects for extension of power facilities to 1974, have come forward with this request, showing detailed requirements involving the expenditure of £65 million. It is to secure that necessary capital that this Bill is now before the House.

There is tremendous confidence both at home and abroad in the ESB and in its progress from the capital point of view. For instance, this was reflected on the Irish stock market in the successful ESB issue last month of £9 million. Similarly, the World Bank, which apply the strictest international criteria when measuring a project in which they wish to invest, applied this strict criteria to the ESB and its structure. They decided to invest £6 million, or 50 per cent of the total capital cost of the Turlough Hill project in County Wicklow.

Deputy O'Donnell raised a number of matters regarding the recent ESB report. I shall not echo the admirable praise he lavished on the ESB as I am sure we all agree with him, but he did strike a note of criticism regarding the unfortunate matter of industrial relations in recent years. This was one of the reasons the ESB last September asked the international consultants, McKinsey & Co., to work on a thorough examination of the entire structure and operation of the ESB, from board level, through management down to all levels of staff. I was very keen on having this investigation carried out and had numerous discussions with the board of the ESB who were anxious to tackle the problem and get to the root of the trouble to remedy the matter of industrial relations. I am glad that the report which was published last week has been well received both by the staff members themselves and outside people including trade unions, all of whom were concerned that there should be an improvement in labour relations.

I share with Deputy O'Donnell the wish that the proposed reorganisation will ensure an easing of the labour relations situation. Already the recommendations have been implemented by the board. A general manager has been appointed, the functions of chairman and general manager have been separated; various sections or departments within the board have been assigned on modern management principles to labour relations, public relations and the commercial side. The whole tenor of the report was that responsibility should be devolved as much as possible through this complex organisation in accordance with the most up-to-date techniques.

However, the work does not finish with this preliminary report, important though it is. It will continue for some further time and McKinsey & Co. are going in detail into every aspect of the ESB administration with a view to applying this idea of greater responsibility——

I am sure they will do this for as long as possible.

The Deputy may take that view of it. However, if we can ensure that this organisation can function with the least possible degree of industrial trouble I would regard that as a major achievement and would not cavil at the cost.

I would not expect an American firm to be able to achieve that in this country.

One important aspect of the activities of McKinsey and Co. is that there is no root and branch approach; it is merely a question of adjusting the present administration of the ESB to ensure greater effectiveness and to make certain that any labour relations problem can be dealt with as expeditiously as possible and nipped in the bud.

Deputy O'Donovan raised a point in regard to superannuation. If the House will agree to give me all Stages of this Bill I can assure the Deputy that I will consider having an amendment moved in the Seanad to meet his point of view—possibly instead of "the first two years of such service" to say "excluding the first year of such service".

I must be frank and admit I have not done my homework. Only half the service is being allowed.

If I can meet the Deputy's point between now and the Seanad debate I shall put down an amendment.

I got a similar promise from one of the Minister's colleagues and nothing happened. It will not do this time.

That is all we can do at the present time.

We can have a Committee Stage on it.

Very well. Deputies have raised the question of the economics of the various turf-powered stations. I should like to emphasise that originally these turf-powered stations, particularly the milled-peat stations, were quite favourable from the economic point of view. However, reduced oil costs have made them less favourable. In this sphere of balancing the turf development aspect with the power aspect there is a need, as Deputy O'Hara suggested, to balance the social and economic issues involved. A big employment factor is involved in turf production rather than in power generation per se. There is no change in Government policy in that respect; the policy remains to utilise our own resources to the maximum extent and to continue to do so. The Government have given practical evidence of that recently in requesting the ESB to proceed with the erection of additional power facilities at Shannonbridge to utilise the western bog which stretches into South Roscommon and East Galway. The board are proceeding with their plans for an extra power station there to use the remaining turf facilities available in that area.

Deputy Hugh Gibbons raised the matter of the Airgna power station. As Deputies are aware, this 15 mw station built in 1959 provides an outlet for the bituminous coal mined there. The proposal to which Deputy Dr. Gibbons referred is one to extend the power facilities in the Arigna area in order to utilise the low-grade coal which is in considerable supply there. There are technical difficulties involved because of the type of ash resulting from this low-grade coal. There is the difficulty of getting boilers which would contain such ash. That is one aspect of the technical problem involved. The economies of it also present a problem in that the production there would be about twice the cost of production in an oil-fired station. There are both technical and financial difficulties. I am naturally very keen on this development because it is in my own constituency. I have had discussions with the Arigna collieries and we are having a complete re-examination of the whole matter. At the moment I am awaiting a report.

I am very grateful for the general welcome given to the Bill and I appreciate the remarks made about the ESB. It has proved itself an excellent organisation. As I said, it is at the moment having a very thorough look at itself, with the aid of international consultants, with a view to streamlining the organisation. It is a very complex organisation and it is likely to become even more complex in the future with the development of nuclear power.

I share Deputy O'Hara's view that we should use different power resources. It would be a great mistake to depend on one particular source for power. That is why we have moved on to a balanced development in this respect—oil-fired stations, coal-fired stations and turf-fired stations. When it is warranted we shall have a nuclear energy station in the 1970s. That will further diversify our power facilities. Location has not been decided but we will seek to locate it west of the Shannon. I share Deputy O'Hara's wish in that respect.

Question put and agreed to.

Certainly not. This Bill requires amendment. There is discrimination against the manual workers. Only half their previous wage is being allowed and the first two years will not count. We heard a great deal today about social progress.

Deputy O'Donovan is talking now at half cock, as he admitted himself earlier.

I am talking the truth.

There is an equal contribution from both the worker and the board. There is no discrimination against the manual worker.

I think we should have the Committee Stage tomorrow week because I want to put down amendments.

Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, 30th April, 1970.
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